"The foundation", jing, semen, blood and standing meditation

[exorcist_1699]

On 2021/7/28 at 5:27 AM, freeform said:

Breath cessation naturally happens by itself once the beginnings of embryonic breathing are underway - there is no holding, it’s hard to say if you’re physically breathing or not.

 

 

There are 3 criteria  to judge whether you suceed in   laying the foundation of  Taoist alchemy , they are :

 

1) Whether you can stop jing leakage  or not  ; capable of doing it is said to  be  a guarantee to a very , very  long life ; the Taoist classics always use hundreds or thousands of years  , or   a  period that  " the mountain crumbles  " or  " a lake dries up  "  to describe it .

 

2) Whether you can stop the ordinary way of breathing, ie ,  leakage of qi . Embryonic breathing is the core , lung breathing is  just its expression  , they are related . If lung breathing is always dominant , then there is no way that the core appears to you .

 

3) Whether you can  stop  ordinary way of thinking :  stream of consciousness, fluctuation of minds..etc , ie , leakage of shen . Shen is the core , daily analytic minds ,  fluctuations of minds are its applications and appearances  . If it  keeps leaking ( pay attention to something , analyze something..) ,  then there is no way that the  consolidated form of  it  appears to you .

 

Of course , the 3rd one is  the  basic, thorough one because without the achievement of it , the 1st and 2nd one are not secure , despise your having achieved them .

 

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by exorcist_1699

[freeform]

3 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Whether you can stop the ordinary way of breathing, ie ,  leakage of qi . Embryonic breathing is the core , lung breathing is  its expression

Precisely.

 

What tends to happen is people place importance on the expression, rather than tracing their way to the root (mostly because they don’t have the methods).

 

So they invent their own methods and you get stuff like contrived breath holding as a main practice.

 

And you get schools that get obsessed with sperm. I seem to remember one school that teaches older women to suck off as many young men as possible in order to swallow their sperm as a method to generate Jing.

Edited July 28, 2021 by freeform

[freeform]

The lungs are the interface between the mind and the body.

 

Any holding, controlling, forcing you do will impact your mind.

 

This is acceptable in some circumstances - for example when learning a method, or trying to achieve a short term aim like physically stretching the lungs for example. 

 

But forced breath holding over a long period, as a main practice will invariably affect the mind and will close off the doorway to any spiritual development.

 

And just as a clue - if you regulate your mind correctly - it will also affect the breathing. Generate stability and stillness - and the breath will stop of its own accord.

[Piyadasi]

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

I seem to remember one school that teaches older women to suck off as many young men as possible in order to swallow their sperm as a method to generate Jing.

Yikes, which school though specifically? Just so I can steer way clear of them.

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

Yikes, which school though specifically? Just so I can steer way clear of them.

 
You’re not their target demographic it seems. I’ll see if I can find the name. It was discussed here on the forum a decade or more ago.

 

Edit: you may well be the target victim demographic though! 😂

Edited July 28, 2021 by freeform

[Piyadasi]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

 
You’re not their target demographic it seems. I’ll see if I can find the name. It was discussed here on the forum a decade or more ago

Really?

Amazing. I always find it... astonishing when you or someone else with similar experience talks about all the crazy schools and methods that you came across during your travels. Like how on earth people come up with this shit? Hahaha I guess I'm fortunate that I didn't get lost in these twisted byways and side-roads. Sad and hilarious at the same time.

Appreciate your posts always friend 🙏

[freeform]

17 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

Like how on earth people come up with this

Often it’s well intentioned - sadly.
 

It’s just based on misunderstanding and a genuine desire to take part in these arts.

 

17 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

all the crazy schools and methods

In a culture that has thousands of years of history that relate to these arts, it makes sense that it permeates the cultural consciousness.

 

Sometimes people want to access these things, but have no avenue - so they read books and classical texts and it says something about a bright white light - so they do the only logical thing available to them and imagine a bright white light… then they teach this to others.

 

Or they read about Jing and it’s connection to sexual fluids and they make the most logical leap - more semen = more Jing. Next thing you know, they’re sucking off strangers to access the Dao 😅

 

The worst, in my opinion, is when a school has partial methods. When they get it half right. This can be dangerous - it breeds cult-like schools, and can mix genuine methods with made up stuff - and result in all kinds of weirdness.

[Nuralshamal]

14 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Will Nuralshamal and Freeform ever find common ground?  I wouldn´t hold my breath.

12 hours ago, freeform said:

The issue I wanted to raise is adding breath-holding to an existing method that doesn’t include breath holding. If it’s part of a method you’re following, then follow the method - your health and well-being is then your teacher’s responsibility.

 

@liminal_luke yes, from the above quote from freeform, we've found the common ground  

I never talked about mixing systems together, nor "doing one's own thing". Due to @cleansox pointing it out, I clarified this by mentioning the specific methods that employ breath holding as one of their breathing exercises. Again, thanks for that @Cleansox  

@freeform as I mentioned in some of my previous posts (including to Virtue), I actually don't think we disagree that much. I think it's simply written communication, and what one "reads into" what the other communicates.

Again, @freeform, I never said "jing = sperm", in every single post I've specifically mentioned "jing is related to sperm", I didn't say "jing EQUALS sperm" at any point. That's what you're reading into it, but it's never been what I said. There's a big difference between "related to" and "basically equal to". 

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

I didn't say "jing EQUALS sperm" at any point.

 

You didn't say those exact words... What you did say is:

 

On 23/07/2021 at 10:14 AM, Nuralshamal said:

"transformation" of semen into energy

 

This is what I was reacting to. Semen doesn't transform into 'energy' or Qi (I guess it has some calories to it, so maybe you could get a bit of energy from consuming enough of it).

 

This is just the kind of misunderstanding that leads to this sort of stuff:

 

[Nuralshamal]

@freeform

Tell me then, what happens if someone retains semen?

When they stop that leakage of jing, and there is finally accumulated a surplus of semen which has not been evacuated.. What will happen to that surplus of semen in your opinion?

Edited July 28, 2021 by Nuralshamal

[Cleansox]

I believe @Desmonddfhas written about this, probably in the Grotto section.

 

I would say that if a person still nourishes sexual desire, and just keep a lid on it, the body will evacuate old semen just like all old manifest substances are evacuated or broken down and re-used (with a loss of energy in the process). The "energy" one feels in the process is, at least partly, frustration, which is activated energy without a proper release (that is the physiological explanation, not TCM). 

 

So to retain jing, as discussed in earlier threads, one works on desire, not only sexual but also desire for money, fame, and so on. One also works on ones mental patterns that create worry, fear, and so on. 

Thus one retain jing. 

[Cleansox]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Next thing you know, they’re sucking off strangers to access the Dao 

I can take one for the team and be that stranger... 😁 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Circulating the breath, inseparably coordinated with the dan tian sticking out and sinking in. In many ways, (it) is partial to a great extent of winding, coiling, twisting, and turning and to pushing down the breath, raising the breath, sinking the breath, and sending out the breath during the course of the inside and outside movements. This causes the expansion and contraction of the arteries and lymph to become gentle, preserving the elasticity of the blood vessels and lymph, strengthening the unimpeded and unobstructed circulation through the blood vessels supporting lymph metabolism. At the same time, the response of the sympathetic nerves during practice becomes more gentle, and the response of the parasympathetic nerves is strengthened; thus changing the abnormal reports received by the organism and urging the blood vessels to circulate normally. Consequently, refining and cultivating China’s Wudang Daoist Qigong can postpone cardiovascular aging and result in positive effects.

 

Controlling breath is important in martial arts, and all exercise in general. Holding your breath is the opposite of that.

 

 

 

 

[Nuralshamal]

23 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

I believe @Desmonddfhas written about this, probably in the Grotto section.

 

I would say that if a person still nourishes sexual desire, and just keep a lid on it, the body will evacuate old semen just like all old manifest substances are evacuated or broken down and re-used (with a loss of energy in the process). The "energy" one feels in the process is, at least partly, frustration, which is activated energy without a proper release (that is the physiological explanation, not TCM). 

 

So to retain jing, as discussed in earlier threads, one works on desire, not only sexual but also desire for money, fame, and so on. One also works on ones mental patterns that create worry, fear, and so on. 

Thus one retain jing. 

Hey @Cleansox, thanks for chipping in

Yes, definitively.

Warning (in an attempt not to generalize or universalize my viewpoint, I'll say which lineage it comes from): I'm about to share some of my personal viewpoints on this subject. These are in accord with what I've been taught from Master Zhongxian Wu's Emei Zhengong, as well as Wudang Dragon Gate system, and what I've experienced personally.

There's a jing, qi and shen component to everything.

So "sealing the leakage" on the jing level has to do with the physical body, the semen, the blood, etc. That's what I've been talking about a lot in this thread.

"Sealing the leakage" on the qi level has to do with (just like you mentioned) emotions as well as the breath; the emotions of desire, worry, fear etc, as well as proper breathing.

"Sealing the leakage" on the shen level has to do with the senses (turning the senses inward instead of outward) and discarding wrong beliefs/worldviews for correct ones (wrong and correct simply implying whether the belief is in accord with objective reality or not).

To give an example of the trinity of jing/qi/shen:
The liver has a jing, qi and shen component. The jing is the physical part of the liver, the qi is the emotional part (emotions on a spectrum between anger and compassion) as well as the liver energy and the shen part is related to the sense of vision.

So, sealing the leakage on the jing level of the liver has to do with blood (especially for women), but also anything which can damage your physical liver (e.g. alcohol). Sealing the leakage on the qi level of the liver has to do with slowly but surely minimizing anger, and slowly but surely cultivating compassion. This is coupled with breathing exercises, mantras and mudras for the liver, strengthening and refining its qi. Finally, sealing the leakage on the shen level of the liver has to do with minimizing looking (the sense of vision) outward, and instead turning the eyesight within, looking within.

That's a small "my two cents" about the trinity of jing/qi/shen and it's relation to internal alchemy, as well as the principle of "sealing the leakage" and the alchemical principle of jing to qi, qi to shen, and shen to dao using the liver as a concrete example.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Nuralshamal

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

@freeform

Tell me then, what happens if someone retains semen?

When they stop that leakage of jing, and there is finally accumulated a surplus of semen which has not been evacuated.. What will happen to that surplus of semen in your opinion?

 

It depends.

 

There are causes, there are conditions - and there are effects.

 

The cause can be the same - but the conditions will dictate the actual effect.

 

The condition is who you are.

 

For the majority of people the only effect will be an increase in hormones... which actually drives a dispersal and further leakage of Jing.

 

In alchemical traditions, one of the basic signs of full, consolidated Jing is not being driven by base desires.

 

(this is different to the medical context, where healthy sex drive, teeth that don't fall out and lack of wet dreams, feeble legs and painful back are a sign of decent-enough jing)

 

The result of semen retention for most people is exactly the opposite to what we're trying to achieve in alchemy - horniness, lust, an increase in the drive to be dominant, to make a display of oneself in front of others etc. The standard elevated testosterone stuff. This is actually a sign of the dispersal of Jing.

 

Force celibacy long-term without methods to consolidate the Jing, but then repress the base desires - then the effect is the archetypal perverted priest. This is called 'muddying the waters'. It's a well known issue.

 

Muddy the waters through lust and prolonged celibacy, but without the repression - and instead push Qi up to the heart and the head (in a mistaken attempt to turn jing into qi and shen) - then (if you actually have any Qi) you'll end up with the classic deviation called Poison Fire Corrupts The Heart.

 

Again - the information available  on jing outside of the inner-door circles of genuine lineages is very basic.

 

Jing is by far the most complex of the 3 treasures. Far more complex than Qi (with all the stems and branches, channels, phases etc)

[Nuralshamal]

@freeform

Thanks for sharing! That's some really good information

I completely agree!

There are many possible pitfalls if one does not have the correct techniques and methods, and of course the protection and guidance of a true teacher.

What I was thinking about when I asked that question, is the following:
1) Through retaining the semen, you consolidate, build and strengthen the jing  (of course this is only done if the emotions and the mind are in balance, just like you mentioned).
2) Through fortifying the foundation, you strengthen your jing, thereby making the "jing to qi" step of internal alchemy stronger

 

[Cleansox]

2 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 @Cleansox

the alchemical principle of jing to qi, qi to shen, and shen to dao using the liver as a concrete example.

I am aware of the fact that there are several ideas about what internal alchemy is, a couple of thousand years of development in a rather large country has that as a result. 

 

This messes with a discussion like this, because in what I study the above wouldn't be internal alchemy at all. It is "just" a refinement, not a transformation. 

 

It is based on post heaven energetics, and might constitute the preparation phase going in to meditation, but if you have followed the somewhat unclear discussions on the subject the above would lead to a yinshen, not a yangshen. 

Add pre heaven bla bla bla, a hint of the super secret Ming method, an unwarranted use of the term "reversal", and that would explain why we see this so differently. 

[freeform]

29 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

What I was thinking about when I asked that question, is the following:
1) Through retaining the semen, you consolidate, build and strengthen the jing  (of course this is only done if the emotions and the mind are in balance, just like you mentioned).

I understand that that’s what you were thinking - but again, from my experience, that’s wrong.

 

29 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

I completely agree!

 

That’s why, I’m afraid we don’t completely agree.
 

There is no causal relationship between semen retention and jing consolidation. 
 

And in fact semen retention can have exactly the opposite effect - Jing dispersal. This can have the same effect even if your emotions and mind are ‘in balance’ as you say.
 

However, there is a conditional relationship - meaning that if you’re obsessively ejaculating (or even having orgasms without it), then that makes consolidation impossible.

 

There is the same conditional relationship between over-work, stress, too much emotional turmoil, eating too little etc etc.

 

29 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

2) Through fortifying the foundation, you strengthen your jing, thereby making the "jing to qi" step of internal alchemy stronger

This is about strengthening the body as a metaphor for consolidating the Jing?

Edited July 28, 2021 by freeform

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Add pre heaven bla bla bla

I really need to learn from your methods of avoiding circular conversations 😂

[Nuralshamal]

12 hours ago, Cleansox said:

I am aware of the fact that there are several ideas about what internal alchemy is, a couple of thousand years of development in a rather large country has that as a result. 

 

This messes with a discussion like this, because in what I study the above wouldn't be internal alchemy at all. It is "just" a refinement, not a transformation. 

 

It is based on post heaven energetics, and might constitute the preparation phase going in to meditation, but if you have followed the somewhat unclear discussions on the subject the above would lead to a yinshen, not a yangshen. 

Add pre heaven bla bla bla, a hint of the super secret Ming method, an unwarranted use of the term "reversal", and that would explain why we see this so differently. 

Hey @Cleansox,

Yes, like you said, there might be some differences in how we view internal alchemy, and how the systems we practice view it.

From my point of view, how will you access the your jing from before you were born? How will you access your qi from before you were born? How will you connect with the state of your conciousness from before you were born?

You use your current state and work from there. 

By building and strengthening your foundation (here understood as the health of your physical body), you're strengthening your jing. Through this continued strengthening, you can access, connect to and experienceyour jing from before you were born.

This can happen through what this post started with: standing. If you're familiar with the "squatting monkey" or "dun hou shi", that's the very first posture in Dai Family Xing Yi. Through standing in this posture, you can connect to your jing from before you were born. You use your acquired jing (current physical state of health, your body), to access your jing from before you were born.

The posture looks somewhat like the fetal position. When you relax in the position and stand for a prolonged time, and if you get the transmission of this state from your teacher, you can enter into and connect with the state of your jing from before you were born.

The same goes for qi. You use your current qi, to access the qi from before you were born. You can connect to and access the state of your qi from before birth. 

Similarly with shen.

The good thing about qigong and meditation is that once you're able to reach "the void", you have access to all of these three (jing, qi and shen from before birth) as well as everything else.

That's the first thing in daoist cosmology: from the void came the dao, from the dao came the one, from the one came the two, from the two came the three, and from the three everything (the ten thousand things) came.

So, when you access the void, everything is already in there: your jing/qi/shen from before birth, the 5 elements in their optimal form etc. You can know everything.

That's the big advantage if one is good in meditation. If you can reach the void (through a transmission of it from your teacher), you can start to enter into the void every day. Then everything happens, just like the Dao De Jing says "the sage does nothing, yet everything is accomplished". 

The yin & yang shen is definitively possible, but I don't personally view it as important, nor the ultimate goal of alchemy. Alchemy's ultimate goal is "RenTienHeYi", or man becomes one with the universe (or Heaven as they call it).

It's the same goal most spiritual systems pursue: yoga means oneness, union with or to be in harmony with. Harmony with everything and everyone, i.e. the universe.

It's the same in sufism: "la ilaha il allah", there is nothing but God, i.e. even you are part of God. When you realize that and go into that state daily, that's the end goal.

It's the same in buddhism, realizing the ultimate truth, "the void", "the emptiness", "nirvana". 

That's my own personal view, based on my own personal experience, and as taught by my different teachers.

 

[MIchael80]

17 hours ago, Cleansox said:

I am aware of the fact that there are several ideas about what internal alchemy is, a couple of thousand years of development in a rather large country has that as a result. 

 

This messes with a discussion like this, because in what I study the above wouldn't be internal alchemy at all. It is "just" a refinement, not a transformation. 

 

It is based on post heaven energetics, and might constitute the preparation phase going in to meditation, but if you have followed the somewhat unclear discussions on the subject the above would lead to a yinshen, not a yangshen. 

Add pre heaven bla bla bla, a hint of the super secret Ming method, an unwarranted use of the term "reversal", and that would explain why we see this so differently. 

Perfect description!!! 😂😂

Edited July 29, 2021 by MIchael80

[Cleansox]

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 @Cleansox

Yes, like you said, there might be some differences in how we view internal alchemy, and how the systems we practice view it.

Yes, so far we are in agreement. 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 How will you connect with the state of your conciousness from before you were born?

You use your current state and work from there. 

By building and strengthening your foundation (here understood as the health of your physical body), you're strengthening your jing. Through this continued strengthening, you can access, connect to and experienceyour jing from before you were born.

And here we part. 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 

 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

You use your acquired jing (current physical state of health, your body), to access your jing from before you were born.

Hard to tell here, because this gives you an image of a process, but the image I get of this is different from how I understand it. 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

The posture looks somewhat like the fetal position. When you relax in the position and stand for a prolonged time, and if you get the transmission of this state from your teacher, you can enter into and connect with the state of your jing from before you were born.

Totally different from the process I have studied. 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

The good thing about qigong and meditation is that once you're able to reach "the void", you have access to all of these three (jing, qi and shen from before birth) as well as everything else.

As I understand it, qigong + meditation = yin shen, not the transformational process involving JinDan. 

The Zhan Boduan/Zhong-Lu makes quite a big thing out of this. 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

So, when you access the void, everything is already in there: your jing/qi/shen from before birth, the 5 elements in their optimal form etc. You can know everything.

That's the big advantage if one is good in meditation. If you can reach the void (through a transmission of it from your teacher), you can start to enter into the void every day. Then everything happens, just like the Dao De Jing says "the sage does nothing, yet everything is accomplished". 

Why then have members of Daoist internal alchemical traditions a history of critisizing Buddhists (and other daoists) who focus on sitting in the void? 

 

So I hear you, and I see the differences between what we do. 

[Nuralshamal]

28 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Yes, so far we are in agreement. 

And here we part. 

 

Hard to tell here, because this gives you an image of a process, but the image I get of this is different from how I understand it. 

Totally different from the process I have studied. 

As I understand it, qigong + meditation = yin shen, not the transformational process involving JinDan. 

The Zhan Boduan/Zhong-Lu makes quite a big thing out of this. 

Why then have members of Daoist internal alchemical traditions a history of critisizing Buddhists (and other daoists) who focus on sitting in the void? 

 

So I hear you, and I see the differences between what we do. 

Interesting responses

When Bodhidharma (a siddha yogi from south india, probably employing ideas similar to Simplified Kundalini Yoga which I've mentioned in other of my post) came to China as a buddhist "missionary" to teach them meditation, he too was appalled to discover the monks exclusively doing sitting practices. They were sick and weakly. 

According to legend he gave them standing practices (Lohan Hands) as well as YiJinJing and XiSuiGong (which he brought from South India).

So even a buddhist from India, the country wherefrom buddhism originated, ALSO thought the chinese buddhists emphasized sitting too much. And you know indian yoga employes a lot of sitting meditation! 

The daoists employ more standing methods. The "Dun Hou Shi" standing meditation like I mentioned, it's the very first posture you learn. People think it's stupid and boring, and simply a test of patience, so the teacher can see whether the student will stick to it. However, this seemingly simple posture can take you into the void.

Standing in the void! Each posture is like a physical yantra or talisman, it has particular characteristics. Simply being in that posture makes the energy flow in a certain way. When you go into the void in a standing posture, these energetic characteristics are more noticeable and very powerful.

So, having this as the first posture is very chinese: it's the beginning, yet it's also the end. It builds the foundation, as well as allow you to reach the ultimate. All in one. That's the daoist thought "the one is in all, and all is in the one". 

But like you mentioned, it's different processes.

However, I would be very interested and curious to know now; can you shortly explain your view of the alchemical process in your tradition? 

Be blessed
 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Nuralshamal

[Cleansox]

17 hours ago, freeform said:

I really need to learn from your methods of avoiding circular conversations 😂

Both true yin/yang and, since that is a part of, the reversal process, deserves a good presentation including visual aids. 

When faced with doing it on my smartphone => avoidance mode. 

And some of these aspects are rarely spoken about in clear language outside of schools, a tradition which also makes me hesitant... 

[Cleansox]

13 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

Each posture is like a physical yantra or talisman, it has particular characteristics. Simply being in that posture makes the energy flow in a certain way. When you go into the void in a standing posture, these energetic characteristics are more noticeable and very powerful.

Yes, here we are on the same wavelength. 

 

Add: And depending on where one is in ones practice, the characteristics of said posture changes. 

It can take one through the different layers of the aquired bodymind: Skin, sinew, channel, organ, marrow. 

This would mainly be the preparation phase, so I would not call it internal alchemy because no yao/dan has been produced. 

 

Some positions, or as in my practice, some specific aspects in these methods, activate the River Chariot and the Reversal of Water and Fire. This is described in most of the texts referred to in my ppd, and together with a shift in awareness this lays the Foundation, a phase that ends with the production of yao/medicine. 

 

Continuing this, the change in awareness continue, and with that, the process of transformation starts up, but now guided from the replenished yuan jing/qi/shen. 

 

At this stage, things take care of themselves, as long as I retain proper awareness. 

13 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

But like you mentioned, it's different processes.

The main difference would be my middle pharagraph, which is brutally simplified here but as I wrote, there are quite a few texts devoted to it (although in severely metaphorical language). 

That part I could not see in your description, and it is considered a major stepping stone in some traditions. 

13 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

However, I would be very interested and curious to know now; can you shortly explain your view of the alchemical process in your tradition? 

So I posted an overview above, somewhat simplified ("reversal" is a somewhat large concept, and the firing times in my tradition is more like baking, an apt similie sometimes used by @freeform, which I interpret as including "bathing"). 

13 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

Be blessed
 

And you 😁