"The foundation", jing, semen, blood and standing meditation

[MIchael80]

On 29.7.2021 at 4:49 PM, Cleansox said:

Yes, here we are on the same wavelength. 

 

Add: And depending on where one is in ones practice, the characteristics of said posture changes. 

It can take one through the different layers of the aquired bodymind: Skin, sinew, channel, organ, marrow. 

This would mainly be the preparation phase, so I would not call it internal alchemy because no yao/dan has been produced. 

 

Some positions, or as in my practice, some specific aspects in these methods, activate the River Chariot and the Reversal of Water and Fire. This is described in most of the texts referred to in my ppd, and together with a shift in awareness this lays the Foundation, a phase that ends with the production of yao/medicine. 

 

Continuing this, the change in awareness continue, and with that, the process of transformation starts up, but now guided from the replenished yuan jing/qi/shen. 

 

At this stage, things take care of themselves, as long as I retain proper awareness. 

The main difference would be my middle pharagraph, which is brutally simplified here but as I wrote, there are quite a few texts devoted to it (although in severely metaphorical language). 

That part I could not see in your description, and it is considered a major stepping stone in some traditions. 

So I posted an overview above, somewhat simplified ("reversal" is a somewhat large concept, and the firing times in my tradition is more like baking, an apt similie sometimes used by @freeform, which I interpret as including "bathing"). 

And you 😁

Hi cleansox! :-)

Just curious ... did you practice the sitting ming gong or the standing moving form?

 

Peace 

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, MIchael80 said:

Hi cleansox! :-)

Just curious ... did you practice the sitting ming gong or the standing moving form?

 

Yo!

 

In the tradition I practice, this is done through static standing. 

 

We also have moving forms and most of the standing forms can be done seated, shifting from standing to seated has both pros and cons. 

The main methods, at least for a householder where time is an issue, lies in the standing, but I also do the core moving methods every day. 

 

The standing positions should not (and when seen, would not) be confused with the most well known zhan zhuan associated with martial lineages, the purpose and energetics is different. 

 

I'm sure that other lineages have developed other ways of accessing the same mechanisms. 

[Nuralshamal]

On 29.7.2021 at 4:49 PM, Cleansox said:

Yes, here we are on the same wavelength. 

 

Add: And depending on where one is in ones practice, the characteristics of said posture changes. 

It can take one through the different layers of the aquired bodymind: Skin, sinew, channel, organ, marrow. 

This would mainly be the preparation phase, so I would not call it internal alchemy because no yao/dan has been produced. 

 

Some positions, or as in my practice, some specific aspects in these methods, activate the River Chariot and the Reversal of Water and Fire. This is described in most of the texts referred to in my ppd, and together with a shift in awareness this lays the Foundation, a phase that ends with the production of yao/medicine. 

 

Continuing this, the change in awareness continue, and with that, the process of transformation starts up, but now guided from the replenished yuan jing/qi/shen. 

 

At this stage, things take care of themselves, as long as I retain proper awareness. 

The main difference would be my middle pharagraph, which is brutally simplified here but as I wrote, there are quite a few texts devoted to it (although in severely metaphorical language). 

That part I could not see in your description, and it is considered a major stepping stone in some traditions. 

So I posted an overview above, somewhat simplified ("reversal" is a somewhat large concept, and the firing times in my tradition is more like baking, an apt similie sometimes used by @freeform, which I interpret as including "bathing"). 

And you 😁

Thanks for sharing @Cleansox

[awaken]

The purpose of breathing is to stimulate the sense of breath, and the purpose of sense of breath is to enter the first jhana. After entering the first jhana, you will reach the state of one mind and continue to relax your mind, and you will enter the state of two jhana. After entering the Second Zen, there will be a black liver light like an aurora. If you continue to relax your mind, you will enter the three meditations, and the three meditations will appear as rabbit marrow light like a full moon. These two kinds of lights are small medicines. After entering the four jhanas with the small medicine, one enters a state where the senses are stopped but the mind is awake, that is, the body is asleep, but inside is awake. After thorough training, awareness arises, and yang will be produced. The evolution of Yangsheng is the evolution of Dan.

Therefore, if you talk about breathing and holding your breath here, isn't it too low-level?
The purpose of breathing is as long as you can enter the first jhana of the state of one mind. As for how the breathing runs, do you need to control it? No need to control.

 

呼吸的目的是為了激發氣感，氣感的目的是為了要進入初禪。進入初禪之後，達到一心狀態，繼續鬆心，就會進入二禪狀態。進入二禪之後，就會出現如同極光一般的烏肝光。繼續鬆心就會進入三禪，三禪就會出現如圓月一般的兔髓光。這兩種光都是小藥。帶著小藥進入四禪之後，進入一種感官停止但是內心清醒的狀態，也就是身體睡著，裡面是醒著的。練透之後，升起覺知，就會產生陽生。陽生的演化就是丹的演化。

因此，各位在這裡講呼吸，講憋氣，是不是太低級了？
呼吸的目的是只要能夠進入一心狀態的初禪就可以了，至於呼吸怎麼跑，有需要控制嗎？不需要控制的。

[exorcist_1699]

On 2021/7/29 at 9:50 PM, Nuralshamal said:

...............

The daoists employ more standing methods. The "Dun Hou Shi" standing meditation like I mentioned, it's the very first posture you learn. People think it's stupid and boring, and simply a test of patience, so the teacher can see whether the student will stick to it. However, this seemingly simple posture can take you into the void.

Standing in the void! Each posture is like a physical yantra or talisman, it has particular characteristics. Simply being in that posture makes the energy flow in a certain way. When you go into the void in a standing posture, these energetic characteristics are more noticeable and very powerful.

So, having this as the first posture is very chinese: it's the beginning, yet it's also the end. It builds the foundation, as well as allow you to reach the ultimate. All in one. That's the daoist thought "the one is in all, and all is in the one". 

But like you mentioned, it's different processes.

However, I would be very interested and curious to know now; can you shortly explain your view of the alchemical process in your tradition? 

Be blessed
 

 

 

In fact , there are many ways that enable people  to  mobilize qi   :  Focus their  minds on dantians,    acu-press  some acupuncture points  on their bodies  or  adopt some postures (Yoga)  or movements of body (Taiji / Martial arts )  ..etc ; 

 

But upgrading  the quality of the qi they have mobilized is  more important , and ,  the emptied-mind  issue is the  challenge hardly can people  evade .

 

So there are two ways that serious practitioners must know : 

 

1) Taoist :  It mainly  uses  qi  to  empty  the mind , then conversely use the settled mind to upgrade the quality of  qi ...,  so it tries to form a positive  feedback series to do the job. Or, use Taoist  jargon to express it : "  let  qi and shen have their  intercourse like sex ( cling to each other.. ) " ... 

 

1) Zen's :  Very  difficult one ,   just for those gifted   ;   however  once having mastered it ,  it is more thorough and allows you to evade many  side-effects. .  Questions like  " Can a mind without any concepts be a mind ? "  or   " A way without doing anything  be a way ? " ...etc,  if you do not view them as some kinds of philosophical bullshits coming some people's vanity of showing off their intelligence  , but  some kind spiritual creation to exploit those  layers of emptiness so that people can gain energy and intelligence from it..

 

How about Tantric and Pure-land's ?  Although they are hot and popular among the crowd , I am not so interested in them. 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by exorcist_1699

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

On 30/07/2021 at 1:50 AM, Nuralshamal said:

Interesting responses

When Bodhidharma (a siddha yogi from south india, probably employing ideas similar to Simplified Kundalini Yoga which I've mentioned in other of my post) came to China as a buddhist "missionary" to teach them meditation, he too was appalled to discover the monks exclusively doing sitting practices. They were sick and weakly. 

According to legend he gave them standing practices (Lohan Hands) as well as YiJinJing and XiSuiGong (which he brought from South India).

So even a buddhist from India, the country where from buddhism originated, ALSO thought the chinese buddhists emphasized sitting too much. And you know indian yoga employes a lot of sitting meditation! 

The daoists employ more standing methods. The "Dun Hou Shi" standing meditation like I mentioned, it's the very first posture you learn. People think it's stupid and boring, and simply a test of patience, so the teacher can see whether the student will stick to it. However, this seemingly simple posture can take you into the void.

Standing in the void! Each posture is like a physical yantra or talisman, it has particular characteristics. Simply being in that posture makes the energy flow in a certain way. When you go into the void in a standing posture, these energetic characteristics are more noticeable and very powerful.

So, having this as the first posture is very chinese: it's the beginning, yet it's also the end. It builds the foundation, as well as allow you to reach the ultimate. All in one. That's the daoist thought "the one is in all, and all is in the one". 

But like you mentioned, it's different processes.

However, I would be very interested and curious to know now; can you shortly explain your view of the alchemical process in your tradition? 

Be blessed
 

It has pretty much been debunked that Bodhidharma, was not the origin of Chinese Martial arts (CMA's have existed for thousands of years in some shape or form before he came to China) as for the Yi Jin Jing and Xui Sui Jing, this is also the same.

Bodhidharrma was the 1st patriarch of Cha'n Buddhism in China and like the 28th patriarch of Mahayana sect Buddhism, he left behind the "Bloodline Sutra", Lankavatara etc.

As for the "dun hou shi" comment, DHS is not practiced outside, Dai Xin Yi Quan, so I don't know where you got that information from?

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Dai Zhi Qiang

[Michael Sternbach]

5 hours ago, Dai Zhi Qiang said:

It has pretty much been debunked that Bodhidharma, was not the origin of Chinese Martial arts (CMA's have existed for thousands of years in some shape or form before he came to China) as for the Yi Jin Jing and Xui Sui Jing, this is also the same.

 

As the wise man says: "If it is not true, it is at least well invented."

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

On 28/07/2021 at 12:48 AM, Nuralshamal said:

Hi @Cleansox

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

Yes, you're right!

Let me nuance and specify, instead of simply generalizing (thanks for pointing that out by the way!)

Holding the breath is important in the following systems I've experienced:
1) Tibetan buddhist tsa-lung and karmamudra (Dr. Nida Chenagtsang, Tulku Lobsang, and Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche are three I've learnt from that all employed breath holding)
2) Wudang Dragon Gate, Emei Zhengong, Dai Family XinYi and Hidden Immortal Lineage TaiJi as taught by Master Zhongxian Wu
3) Genital Weight Lifting, Xisuigong, Daoist meditation, taichi, qigong and lovemaking as taught by Chiao Chang Hung.
4) Sufi meditation, including dhikr (reciting mantras), du'a (reciting prayers) and many others. It can be found in classical texts by e.g. Ibn Arabi, the Badawi tariqa, the Naqshbandi tariqa as well as the Chisti tariqa
5) Yoga, both many Yoga Sutras, the Hatha Yoga Pradipika and many other classical sources (including tibetan texts as well, e.g.6 yogas of Naropa)
6) General fitness training for improving lung capacity, e.g. swimming, diving etc.

Those are just some of the systems, teachers and lineages I've trained in, which employ breath holding as a fundamental breathing exercise
 

 

Zhongxian Wu's Dai Xin Yi Quan is his own interpretation and not indicative of how it is practiced in Qi Xian, Shanxi.  I know because I have visited there numerous times and have practiced this art for many years.

In Dai Xin Yi Quan, you never, ever hold the breath, that is absolutely against the natural principles.

Dai Xin Yi Quan is also NOT a Taoist martial art, this is also Zhongxian Wu's addition and it plays into his whole Taoist system, which ifjudging by his Dai Xin Yi Quan is not probably, made up or not learned properly.

DZQ

Edited August 27, 2022 by Dai Zhi Qiang
layout wrong, typo

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

On 29/07/2021 at 5:18 AM, Wu Ming Jen said:

Circulating the breath, inseparably coordinated with the dan tian sticking out and sinking in. In many ways, (it) is partial to a great extent of winding, coiling, twisting, and turning and to pushing down the breath, raising the breath, sinking the breath, and sending out the breath during the course of the inside and outside movements. This causes the expansion and contraction of the arteries and lymph to become gentle, preserving the elasticity of the blood vessels and lymph, strengthening the unimpeded and unobstructed circulation through the blood vessels supporting lymph metabolism. At the same time, the response of the sympathetic nerves during practice becomes more gentle, and the response of the parasympathetic nerves is strengthened; thus changing the abnormal reports received by the organism and urging the blood vessels to circulate normally. Consequently, refining and cultivating China’s Wudang Daoist Qigong can postpone cardiovascular aging and result in positive effects.

 

Controlling breath is important in martial arts, and all exercise in general. Holding your breath is the opposite of that.

 

 

 

 

 

Bingo.  Holding the breath is never advised, it raises the blood pressure and does nothing in regards to internal development.

I will tell you a funny story which happened to me.

I was studying, Xinyiliuhequan, with a master, based in Xian, who was a student of Yan Xianlin (big name in XinYi world).

The teacher I was learning from had "iron head" and we asked him how he developed it, he replied and said he would teach us this, chu kung, which basically was clenching the fists in a forward stance and holding the breath.

After practising for a few minutes and feeling light in the head, we spoke between ourselves and questioned the authenticity of what he was showing us as it went against all the principles of what we had previously been taught.

So my friend at the time, called the teachers son and asked him how his dad developed this attribute.

He replied and said his father every day would press his head against a tree haha, so yeh the old devil was taking the piss.

 

DZQ

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

On 29/07/2021 at 9:59 PM, Nuralshamal said:

Hey @Cleansox,

Yes, like you said, there might be some differences in how we view internal alchemy, and how the systems we practice view it.

From my point of view, how will you access the your jing from before you were born? How will you access your qi from before you were born? How will you connect with the state of your consciousness from before you were born?

You use your current state and work from there. 

By building and strengthening your foundation (here understood as the health of your physical body), you're strengthening your jing. Through this continued strengthening, you can access, connect to and experience your jing from before you were born.

This can happen through what this post started with: standing. If you're familiar with the "squatting monkey" or "dun hou shi", that's the very first posture in Dai Family Xing Yi. Through standing in this posture, you can connect to your jing from before you were born. You use your acquired jing (current physical state of health, your body), to access your jing from before you were born.

(STOP talking absolute rubbish, you have absolutely no idea, what you are talking about at all, you are embarrassing yourself and also the art, which I have actually put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into.  If this is what Zhongxian Wu has told you, then he needs a stern talking to)

The posture looks somewhat like the fetal position. When you relax in the position and stand for a prolonged time, and if you get the transmission of this state from your teacher, you can enter into and connect with the state of your jing from before you were born.

(ONCE again complete rubbish, unfounded and untrue, no DXYQ master in Qi Xian, anywhere spouts such nonsense, its fairy tales)

The same goes for qi. You use your current qi, to access the qi from before you were born. You can connect to and access the state of your qi from before birth. 

Similarly with shen.

The good thing about qigong and meditation is that once you're able to reach "the void", you have access to all of these three (jing, qi and shen from before birth) as well as everything else.

That's the first thing in daoist cosmology: from the void came the dao, from the dao came the one, from the one came the two, from the two came the three, and from the three everything (the ten thousand things) came.

So, when you access the void, everything is already in there: your jing/qi/shen from before birth, the 5 elements in their optimal form etc. You can know everything.

That's the big advantage if one is good in meditation. If you can reach the void (through a transmission of it from your teacher), you can start to enter into the void every day. Then everything happens, just like the Dao De Jing says "the sage does nothing, yet everything is accomplished". 

The yin & yang shen is definitively possible, but I don't personally view it as important, nor the ultimate goal of alchemy. Alchemy's ultimate goal is "RenTienHeYi", or man becomes one with the universe (or Heaven as they call it).

It's the same goal most spiritual systems pursue: yoga means oneness, union with or to be in harmony with. Harmony with everything and everyone, i.e. the universe.

It's the same in sufism: "la ilaha il allah", there is nothing but God, i.e. even you are part of God. When you realize that and go into that state daily, that's the end goal.

It's the same in buddhism, realizing the ultimate truth, "the void", "the emptiness", "nirvana". 

That's my own personal view, based on my own personal experience, and as taught by my different teachers.

 

 

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

On 30/07/2021 at 1:50 AM, Nuralshamal said:

Interesting responses

When Bodhidharma (a siddha yogi from south india, probably employing ideas similar to Simplified Kundalini Yoga which I've mentioned in other of my post) came to China as a buddhist "missionary" to teach them meditation, he too was appalled to discover the monks exclusively doing sitting practices. They were sick and weakly. 

According to legend he gave them standing practices (Lohan Hands) as well as YiJinJing and XiSuiGong (which he brought from South India).

(Luohan Shibashou - 18 hands) supposedly descended from Yijinjin, which is composed of 12 postures, completely unrelated to martial arts, they are more or less, Yogic stretches, dealing with the tendons, ligaments and circulation of Qi.

So even a buddhist from India, the country where from buddhism originated, ALSO thought the chinese buddhists emphasized sitting too much. And you know indian yoga employes a lot of sitting meditation! 

The daoists employ more standing methods. The "Dun Hou Shi" standing meditation like I mentioned, it's the very first posture you learn. People think it's stupid and boring, and simply a test of patience, so the teacher can see whether the student will stick to it. However, this seemingly simple posture can take you into the void.

(explain about this "taking you into the void"?  I have practiced, dunhoushi, for many years from maybe the leading master in China, who taught me, Dai Xin Yi Quan, he has never, ever mentioned this as a byproduct of the training.

"Dunhoushi is a method to store and generate force from the midsection, it is never, ever been used as a stand alone cultivation method and Dai Xin Yi Quan, has little or no connection with Taoism either, Zhongxian Wu, just adds that in which flavours his Taoist system more.)  

(Dai Xin Yi Quan is a martial art, not a form of spiritual development. Sure it is a internal art and will benefit the health, but self cultivation is not the focus).

Standing in the void! Each posture is like a physical yantra or talisman, it has particular characteristics. Simply being in that posture makes the energy flow in a certain way. When you go into the void in a standing posture, these energetic characteristics are more noticeable and very powerful.

 

(I just cannot understand you have the gall to talk like this, when you don't have hands on years of experience under a legit practitioner or master, this makes NO sense at all).



So, having this as the first posture is very chinese: it's the beginning, yet it's also the end. It builds the foundation, as well as allow you to reach the ultimate. All in one. That's the daoist thought "the one is in all, and all is in the one". 

But like you mentioned, it's different processes.

However, I would be very interested and curious to know now; can you shortly explain your view of the alchemical process in your tradition? 

Be blessed
 

 

[Earl Grey]

2 hours ago, Dai Zhi Qiang said:

 

Bingo.  Holding the breath is never advised, it raises the blood pressure and does nothing in regards to internal development.

I will tell you a funny story which happened to me.

I was studying, Xinyiliuhequan, with a master, based in Xian, who was a student of Yan Xianlin (big name in XinYi world).

The teacher I was learning from had "iron head" and we asked him how he developed it, he replied and said he would teach us this, chu kung, which basically was clenching the fists in a forward stance and holding the breath.

After practising for a few minutes and feeling light in the head, we spoke between ourselves and questioned the authenticity of what he was showing us as it went against all the principles of what we had previously been taught.

So my friend at the time, called the teachers son and asked him how his dad developed this attribute.

He replied and said his father every day would press his head against a tree haha, so yeh the old devil was taking the piss.

 

DZQ

Sounds a lot like what our GM did to problem students before he would graduate them early if they started to act like they knew more than he did.

[Gerard]

Deleted post as the intended reply should have been posted in a thread located in the Rabbit Hole but mysteriously was posted here.

 

FORUM BUG.

Edited August 16 by Gerard