The Clarity Aspect in Buddhism

[freeform]

3 hours ago, C T said:

Personally, I think siddhis and the enlightening journey can be cultivated exclusively. Or inclusively, if so wish.

But one who's a siddhi adept is not necessarily enlightened,

 

It depends what one means by enlightenment really. In some traditions enlightenment is exceptionally rare, in other traditions it's relatively common.

 

In my tradition, what's considered enlightenment is exceptionally rare.

 

The understanding around siddhi is that there are essentially two types: 'earthly' siddhi and 'heavenly' siddhi.

 

(actually there are three types, but don't want to over-complicate things - in reality, the third type can be divided and included within the earthly and heavenly types)

 

The earthly type can be developed specifically - as in you can actively work on developing these. This is along the lines of what @Piyadasi is talking about in reference to Milarepa's magic.

 

In my tradition, the only earthly siddhi that are permitted to be worked on and enhanced are ones for the purposes of healing (so qi emission, diagnostic abilities etc). Even then it's up to your teacher to work out if this is the correct path for you - and up to you whether it's something you want to do.

 

Some earthly siddhi come about as byproducts of 'preparatory' training that's used to build the foundation for spiritual work. Using them tends to diminish one's reserves and slows down progress - and can, of course send one spiraling off the path. These siddhi are specifically discouraged. For instance there's a quality that emanates from ones energy field at specific stages of developing the central channel where you can strongly influence people near to you. This is why in my tradition, this specific process is only done in seclusion.

 

There are other traditions that take the earthly siddhis a lot further. But in spiritual traditions, this sort of thing creates karma... and we want to avoid that if we can.

 

The heavenly siddhi come about simply as a byproduct of developing your Spirit.

 

The idea is that beyond a certain point it's not possible to develop your Spirit without siddhi appearing as a byproduct. You cannot train to develop these siddhi specifically like you can with the earthly siddhi. They only ever come about 'by the grace of god'... or in more mundane terms as byproduct of actualising your true Spirit.

 

These things are not venerated, or given much importance. They're rarely discussed within the school... Kind of how you rarely discuss the ability to do mental arithmetic, or the ability to discern colours. They are, however tested for at certain stages - because it's a pretty handy way to make sure you really did get that breakthrough, and it wasn't just a subjective experience.

 

The people making a big deal of this are generally the power seekers and people who are heavily invested in their high view of their own spiritual progress, that this becomes a challenge to their status.

 

Oh and I've seen my teacher say something along the lines of 'there's no such thing as siddhis' many times to people that inquire about this sort of thing.

Edited August 17, 2021 by freeform

[old3bob]

to me endless and mind blowing speculations and transcendent sounding projections that try to jump over multiple "steps" are dubious at best, and can also become like "poison arrows" as called in Buddhism.  

 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

I thought everything is consciousness?! 

 just like the ocean, stream, river and lake are all water, similarly the mind of a normal person and the mind of a siddha are both illuminated by consciousness. One doesn’t need to become a  yoga siddha/Superman/woman/person to realize their Self/True Nature. 

 

@Piyadasi

it is a very fundamental mistake (imho) to mistake the symptom for the cause. Siddhis are not the cause of realization, but a side-effect of the path one chooses toward realization. If you go down an energy/yogic path, you will get siddhis.

 

Patanjali’s yoga sutras has one  chapter (Vibhuti Pada) dedicated to siddhis, which he then warns as being potential hurdles to liberation. 

 

The most important thing in a Self-realized person is their presence. No siddhis are required, nor will siddhis help. 
 

I’m not very well versed in Buddhist lore beyond a few sutras I’ve studied or what I learned as a kid growing up in India - but the Buddha himself and most of his top students were yoga/meditation adepts prior to becoming “enlightened”. 

 

In Indian dharma traditions there are countless stories of sages with siddhis, who sooner or later realize that, all their siddhis won’t give them Self-realization. So they “straighten up” their acts and work on those aspects of their character that was obscuring their realization.  
 

Rishi Vishwamitra was a great sage with immense powers, but it didn’t get him brahmajnana (Self-realization) until he forsook his ego. 

 

Rishi Durvasa was a sage of many siddhis but didn’t get realization until he was able to let go of his terrible anger.  
 

I won’t bore the folks here with a list of names — suffice to say it is long. 

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

The idea is that beyond a certain point it's not possible to develop your Spirit without siddhi appearing as a byproduct. You cannot train to develop these siddhi specifically like you can with the earthly siddhi.

 

Oh just a final thing.

 

There are some 'earthly' siddhi that sort of achieve the same thing as some of the 'heavenly' ones.

 

For instance there's a way to look into the 'karmic' body of someone and be able to tell them all sorts of things about their life. This can be both a byproduct of spiritual insight and a byproduct of opening a certain type of subtle vision...

 

The difference is that when it's a heavenly siddhi, it comes effortlessly - like remembering the name of your best friend VS the earthly type that takes effort, energy and concentration.

[TranquilTurmoil]

29 minutes ago, old3bob said:

to me endless and mind blowing speculations and transcendent sounding projections that try to jump over multiple "steps" are dubious at best, and can also become like "poison arrows" as called in Buddhism.  

 

Intellectual speculation has many pitfalls… however it can be a very serious obstacle (from what I gather) to think a practicioner has completed their journey before they have. So it’s probably important to clarify in certain circumstances? 🤷🏼‍♂️
 

I also recognize it’s not really necessarily beneficial or “right” to debate across different traditions… so hopefully everyone is respectful and discerning in doing so.

[Apech]

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Oh just a final thing.

 

There are some 'earthly' siddhi that sort of achieve the same thing as some of the 'heavenly' ones.

 

For instance there's a way to look into the 'karmic' body of someone and be able to tell them all sorts of things about their life. This can be both a byproduct of spiritual insight and a byproduct of opening a certain type of subtle vision...

 

The difference is that when it's a heavenly siddhi, it comes effortlessly - like remembering the name of your best friend VS the earthly type that takes effort, energy and concentration.

 

Assuming you have any friends of course.

 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Assuming you have any friends of course.

 

 

Not everyone can pull an Apech 😜

[awaken]

On 2021/8/16 at PM8點31分, dwai said:

謝謝邁克爾。這確實是我一直以來的（作為這一年的整個非傳統）自我實現。人們不需要“體驗”來認識/實踐點。
 

你所說的“不可說”，其實是因為在涅槃三昧中，沒有經驗——一切都停止了，世界真的消失了，時間消失了，消失空間了，知道消失了，甚至“我是”消失了了。

 

但這對於需要充分了解其真實本性的有限存在來說確實沒有多大用處。這就是為什麼人們必須超越nirvikalpa samadhi--進入所謂的霎哈嘉三昧的境界。 
 

我肯定會查看 David 的博客，看看我是否在其中發現了任何有趣的內容。 
 

祝你在你的道路上也好運。

 

最好，

 

德懷 

 

Obviously you have misunderstood Nirvana. Nibbana samādhi is not nothing, but a wonderful existence after a vacuum.

After there is no vacuum, the wonderful Nirvana samādhi is false. It should be called stubborn emptiness.
The true Nirvana samādhi is to create a vacuum after each yin reduction, and to nurture wonderful existence in the vacuum. And the so-called Jindan real person is evolving in the constant wonderful existence.

Rather than speculating here about the purpose of practicing the Lightman, you should think carefully about why you have practiced for so long and still mistakenly recognize Nibbāna Samadhi?

The above article is written in Chinese and translated into English by Google. Please forgive me if there are any errors.

 

顯然你誤解了涅槃三昧。涅槃三昧不是什麼都沒有，而是真空之後產生妙有。

沒有真空之後產生妙有的涅槃三昧是假的。應該稱為頑空定。
真正的涅槃三昧是在每次的化陰過後產生真空，並在真空當中孕育妙有。而所謂的金丹真人就在在不斷的妙有當中演化。

各位與其在這裡猜測練出光人之後有什麼用途，不如好好思考一下，為什麼會練了這麼久，還錯認涅槃三昧？

以上文章由中文書寫，google翻譯成英文，若有誤差，還請見諒

[dwai]

10 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

Obviously you have misunderstood Nirvana. Nibbana samādhi is not nothing, but a wonderful existence after a vacuum.

After there is no vacuum, the wonderful Nirvana samādhi is false. It should be called stubborn emptiness.
The true Nirvana samādhi is to create a vacuum after each yin reduction, and to nurture wonderful existence in the vacuum. And the so-called Jindan real person is evolving in the constant wonderful existence.

Rather than speculating here about the purpose of practicing the Lightman, you should think carefully about why you have practiced for so long and still mistakenly recognize Nibbāna Samadhi?

The above article is written in Chinese and translated into English by Google. Please forgive me if there are any errors.

 

顯然你誤解了涅槃三昧。涅槃三昧不是什麼都沒有，而是真空之後產生妙有。

沒有真空之後產生妙有的涅槃三昧是假的。應該稱為頑空定。
真正的涅槃三昧是在每次的化陰過後產生真空，並在真空當中孕育妙有。而所謂的金丹真人就在在不斷的妙有當中演化。

各位與其在這裡猜測練出光人之後有什麼用途，不如好好思考一下，為什麼會練了這麼久，還錯認涅槃三昧？

以上文章由中文書寫，google翻譯成英文，若有誤差，還請見諒

I don’t understand what you wrote here, sorry. I’m assuming you’re reading a Chinese translation of my words - I don’t know what this translates into, what kind of misunderstanding it gives rise to.
 

I never said “nirvana is nothing”.  

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Intellectual speculation has many pitfalls… however it can be a very serious obstacle (from what I gather) to think a practicioner has completed their journey before they have. So it’s probably important to clarify in certain circumstances? 🤷🏼‍♂️
 

I also recognize it’s not really necessarily beneficial or “right” to debate across different traditions… so hopefully everyone is respectful and discerning in doing so.

 

"to think" includes to doubt....but I get your point.  And thus we might ask and or also have doubts as to who is qualified to clarify which is another can of worms or  poison arrow... 

[freeform]

49 minutes ago, old3bob said:

who is qualified to clarify which is another can of worms

 

This is another reason I get more and more the ingenuity of the lineage systems of genuine traditions. This lineage stuff I used to only tolerate - I thought it was dogmatic, stuffy mode of control - until I happened on a real, living tradition.

 

Who is qualified? One who has true insight.

 

How do you know they have true insight? They've literally passed a test to show beyond any reasonable doubt that they have it.

 

In a neo-tradition you can simply claim that you're awakened, wear the right gear, read the right books, talk the right talk, name yourself an interesting name - and hey presto, you have enough to call yourself a guru.

 

 

[MIchael80]

On 16.8.2021 at 6:41 PM, Creation said:

Hi Michael, 

 

I appreciate you sharing about Lorne and David.  People with clarity about the different stages the process of non-dual awakening goes through is something I'm always happy to find.  

 

If you have any interest, here are some other clear mappings of the process:

 

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

https://digitalcommons.ciis.edu/conscjournal/vol8/iss8/1/

Thanks for the links. 

 

Andrew Hewson also has his own view on this unfolding. It is unique but compares well with Davids approach.  

The videos these two did about the stages and other aspects are quite good.

 

All the best 😊

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

How do you know they have true insight? They've literally passed a test to show beyond any reasonable doubt that they have it.

 

I don't see how insight can be measured with tests. If anything, tests would measure physical/energetic transformation or power, but all of this would remain on the relative or material realm. At some point, I suppose it cannot be discussed since I presume the tests are secret. And of course, many stories can be spun. A Christian might see siddhis as the work of the devil. 

 

To give an example: when dreaming, one can realize that one is dreaming or not. However, this realization itself does not necessarily confer any dream powers--- the power to fly or put one's hand through the wall. Nor does flying or putting one's hand through the wall indicate that one realizes one is dreaming. Of course, it is easier to develop powers while one is lucid, but these are not necessarily the same thing. 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

This is another reason I get more and more the ingenuity of the lineage systems of genuine traditions. This lineage stuff I used to only tolerate - I thought it was dogmatic, stuffy mode of control - until I happened on a real, living tradition.

 

Who is qualified? One who has true insight.

 

How do you know they have true insight? They've literally passed a test to show beyond any reasonable doubt that they have it.

 

In a neo-tradition you can simply claim that you're awakened, wear the right gear, read the right books, talk the right talk, name yourself an interesting name - and hey presto, you have enough to call yourself a guru.

 

 

 

I'd say one of those tests is that "they" can not give one anything in essence that we don't already have - although it may be more or less hidden or undeveloped in us.  (Thus there can be no forced lording over)   

 

as for a school that has the term "neo" tacked onto it who knows for sure? Thus as beginners we should at least "judge a tree by its fruit"

Edited August 17, 2021 by old3bob

[dwai]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

don't see how insight can be measured with tests. If anything, tests would measure physical/energetic transformation or power, but all of this would remain on the relative or material realm

 

I’m just assuming that answer here    Likely that if have nondual realzation, your halo will become visible to all and sundry or a white light will emanate from you during meditation — or some other material, dualistic evidence to that effect, or better still — you should know all the knowledge in all the world (he already challenged me to tell His dad’s name in another post)  

 

 I’ve read something similar in one of Damo Mitchell’s books. So far I’ve found most of what freeform says seems to match what’s in Damo’s books. I disagree with both of them on many things  

 

P.S. also makes me wonder if we have a celeb in our midst 🤔

Edited August 17, 2021 by dwai

[freeform]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

Likely that if have nondual realzation, your halo will become visible to all and sundry or a white light will emanate from you during meditation

No - there’s no outward sign (that I know of) for someone who attains realisation.

 

But there are many weird and wonderful things that do happen down the line.

 

18 minutes ago, dwai said:

I’ve read something similar in one of Damo Mitchell’s books.

 

It’s reasonably well known stuff within certain Longmen lines.

 

20 minutes ago, dwai said:

P.S. also makes me wonder if we have a celeb in our midst 🤔

Ha! I imagine he has better things to be getting on with than hanging out here  

[old3bob]

Btw. no matter how perfect the doctrine or teacher is the student may not be so perfect, prepared or an insightful judge of intellectual quality. (like myself)  Besides a true guru can (also) teach/transfer telepathically while an only intellectual type can not.  Two masters I was fortunate to come in contact with never spoke a word  (of transcendental stuff) yet demonstrated more than many volumes ever could!

 

(minor edit)

Edited August 21, 2021 by old3bob

[awaken]

 

 

This is what you wrote.

 

"What you’ve described as “cannot be talked about” is actually due to the fact that in nirvikalpa samadhi, there IS no experience — everything stops, the world literally disappears, time disappears, space disappears, knowing disappears, and even sense of “I am” disappears."

13 hours ago, dwai said:

I don’t understand what you wrote here, sorry. I’m assuming you’re reading a Chinese translation of my words - I don’t know what this translates into, what kind of misunderstanding it gives rise to.
 

I never said “nirvana is nothing”.  

 

[refugeindharma]

21 hours ago, freeform said:

The difference is that when it's a heavenly siddhi, it comes effortlessly - like remembering the name of your best friend VS the earthly type that takes effort, energy and concentration.

 

I have heard of this concept within Buddhist traditions, heavenly siddhis as you refer to them are akin to a Bodhisattva's spiritual penetrations and abilities, whereas the more effort based earthly siddhi's requiring concentration and effort are similar to Arhats.

 

Could you please define or break down awakening, enlightenment, and immortality within the tradition you practice - which I presume is a Daoist LongMen tradition? Also, not sure if you're familiar with Buddhist models of awakening but if you are, please feel free to draw any parallels between the Daoist/Buddhist stages of enlightenment/awakening that you are aware of as this would be of great interest too (also helps bring us back to the thread title, although I don't think thread titles matter all that much here at TDB)  

Edited August 18, 2021 by refugeindharma

[dwai]

6 hours ago, awaken said:

 

 

This is what you wrote.

 

"What you’ve described as “cannot be talked about” is actually due to the fact that in nirvikalpa samadhi, there IS no experience — everything stops, the world literally disappears, time disappears, space disappears, knowing disappears, and even sense of “I am” disappears."

 

How is that a description of Nirvana ? 

[awaken]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

How is that a description of Nirvana ? 

 

I wrote that to you yesterday.

 

"Obviously you have misunderstood Nirvana. Nibbana samādhi is not nothing, but a wonderful existence after a vacuum.

After there is no vacuum, the wonderful Nirvana samādhi is false. It should be called stubborn emptiness.
The true Nirvana samādhi is to create a vacuum after each yin reduction, and to nurture wonderful existence in the vacuum. And the so-called Jindan real person is evolving in the constant wonderful existence.

Rather than speculating here about the purpose of practicing the Lightman, you should think carefully about why you have practiced for so long and still mistakenly recognize Nibbāna Samadhi?

The above article is written in Chinese and translated into English by Google. Please forgive me if there are any errors.

 

顯然你誤解了涅槃三昧。涅槃三昧不是什麼都沒有，而是真空之後產生妙有。

沒有真空之後產生妙有的涅槃三昧是假的。應該稱為頑空定。
真正的涅槃三昧是在每次的化陰過後產生真空，並在真空當中孕育妙有。而所謂的金丹真人就在在不斷的妙有當中演化。

各位與其在這裡猜測練出光人之後有什麼用途，不如好好思考一下，為什麼會練了這麼久，還錯認涅槃三昧？

以上文章由中文書寫，google翻譯成英文，若有誤差，還請見諒"

[dwai]

47 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

I wrote that to you yesterday.

 

"Obviously you have misunderstood Nirvana. Nibbana samādhi is not nothing, but a wonderful existence after a vacuum.

After there is no vacuum, the wonderful Nirvana samādhi is false. It should be called stubborn emptiness.
The true Nirvana samādhi is to create a vacuum after each yin reduction, and to nurture wonderful existence in the vacuum. And the so-called Jindan real person is evolving in the constant wonderful existence.

Rather than speculating here about the purpose of practicing the Lightman, you should think carefully about why you have practiced for so long and still mistakenly recognize Nibbāna Samadhi?

The above article is written in Chinese and translated into English by Google. Please forgive me if there are any errors.

 

顯然你誤解了涅槃三昧。涅槃三昧不是什麼都沒有，而是真空之後產生妙有。

沒有真空之後產生妙有的涅槃三昧是假的。應該稱為頑空定。
真正的涅槃三昧是在每次的化陰過後產生真空，並在真空當中孕育妙有。而所謂的金丹真人就在在不斷的妙有當中演化。

各位與其在這裡猜測練出光人之後有什麼用途，不如好好思考一下，為什麼會練了這麼久，還錯認涅槃三昧？

以上文章由中文書寫，google翻譯成英文，若有誤差，還請見諒"

I think you didn’t  understand what I wrote about — it was nirvikalpa samadhi, not “Nibbana samadhi”. I didn’t mention nibbana or nirvana in that post. 
 

In any case, I don’t understand what you mean by vacuum and yin reduction. Are these technical terms within Daoism or Buddhism? Or your own words to describe something you practice/experience?

 

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 

In any case, I don’t understand what you mean by vacuum and yin reduction. Are these technical terms within Daoism. 

Yin reduction, yes, although a proof that translating with a program has problems. 

Most likely the same with vacuum. 

[Apech]

For relevance to the OP rather than the developing convo.  I thought particularly @steve on the internet might like this one:

 

 

[dwai]

56 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Yin reduction, yes, although a proof that translating with a program has problems. 

Most likely the same with vacuum. 

Care to elaborate? I’ve not come across “yin reduction” or “vacuum” before. What do you think they mean?