Yin and Yang

[Bindi]

What are Yin and Yang, how do Yin and Yang relate to us, and is the end result of neidan something that is pure Yang, or still related to Yin and Yang somehow? 
 

I see Yin and Yang as emblematic of the two side channels that interact at each dantian, so to me entirely relevant on a personal level throughout the inner journey, and the end result, ie., alchemical gold, as a contribution from both channels, to be placed in the central channel beyond yin and yang. 
 

“The trigrams of the Book of Changes are used to show how the alchemical process consists of extracting the precosmic Real Yin (zhenyin) and Real Yang (zhenyang) from Yang and Yin as they appear in the cosmos, respectively, and in combining them to produce an elixir that represents their unity.”  Here
 

(Anything that seems to suggest only pure Yang as an end point seems tarred by patriarchal conditioning to me.)

[Cleansox]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

 alchemical gold, as a contribution from both channels, to be placed in the central channel beyond yin and yang. 

Which makes it yang, relative to the yin and yang you mention. 

 

Basically, the perspective change and we see a bigger image. 

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Which makes it yang, relative to the yin and yang you mention. 

 

Basically, the perspective change and we see a bigger image. 

Is this ‘Yang relative to Yin and Yang’ a polarised state, or beyond polarity? 

 

 

[Cleansox]

Prenatal vs postnatal. 

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Prenatal vs postnatal. 

Aren’t prenatal Jing qi and Shen part of the process to create the alchemical gold? Is the alchemical gold itself prenatal? Did it always exist,  before birth? 

[Cleansox]

35 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Aren’t prenatal Jing qi and Shen part of the process to create the alchemical gold?

Now that you mention it... 

Quote

Is the alchemical gold itself prenatal?

It sure isn't post natal. 

Quote

Did it always exist,  before birth? 

Probably, I wouldn't have any conscious knowledge about that at present, since I have no pre birth recollection. 

In theory, yes. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Cleansox

[Shadow_self]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

Aren’t prenatal Jing qi and Shen part of the process to create the alchemical gold? Is the alchemical gold itself prenatal? Did it always exist,  before birth? 

 

My very limited understanding of it, is that its highly refined Ming, the seed of Jing stilled to the point that the congenital to acquired process reverses

Edited August 21, 2021 by Shadow_self

[Bindi]

Back on yin and yang and their meaning, I get it that heaven is referred to as yang, and earth as yin, but I think the patriarchal error is to see only heaven as valuable. From the external yellow court:

“My spirits, Hun and Po, dwell within the centre.”

Wo Shen Hun Po Zai Zhong Yang

 

…If people were able to constantly have 

clarity and tranquility, they would then

understand that all of the Heaven [the Hun]
and Earth [the Po] return to the Tao. 
 

(p. 296-297 of Stuart Alve Olson’s external yellow court). 
 

I propose there was a time when the yang soul and the yin soul were both believed to return to the centre. 

 

 

[Cleansox]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

Back on yin and yang and their meaning, I get it that heaven is referred to as yang, and earth as yin, but I think the patriarchal error is to see only heaven as valuable. 

/... ... /

I propose there was a time when the yang soul and the yin soul were both believed to return to the centre. 

Now, the terms "hun" and "po" aren't really that central to the gestalt of the nomenclature used in this context, so this might be a sidetrack from what your intention was:

 

The practice is sort of in stages, and a stage is really likely to end up with uniting two yin-yang components into One. 

And then we take a step back, our perspective change as we can see a slightly more complete version of reality. 

 

In Nei Dan Shu, one starts with Being (which is sorely affected by the impressions we get in life), to Non-Being, which is not. Then one allows Non-Being to return to Being, which I currently interpret as one learns to experience Being with less distortions. 

 

Stopping att any point in this process will lead to clinging to that which is the focus at that time, and seing just that as valuable. 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Cleansox said:

Now, the terms "hun" and "po" aren't really that central to the gestalt of the nomenclature used in this context, so this might be a sidetrack from what your intention was:

I’m looking at this very broadly, and I believe there is a lot of precedence for equating yin and yang with Po and Hun souls. From Wikipedia “The identification of the yin-yang principle with the hun and po souls evidently occurred in the late fourth and early third centuries BCE.” 

 

Quote

 

The practice is sort of in stages, and a stage is really likely to end up with uniting two yin-yang components into One. 

And then we take a step back, our perspective change as we can see a slightly more complete version of reality. 

 

Yes, I agree.

 

Quote

In Nei Dan Shu, one starts with Being (which is sorely affected by the impressions we get in life), to Non-Being, which is not. Then one allows Non-Being to return to Being, which I currently interpret as one learns to experience Being with less distortions. 

 

Stopping att any point in this process will lead to clinging to that which is the focus at that time, and seing just that as valuable. 

Sounds reasonable. 
 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Bindi

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, Cleansox said:

 nomenclature used in this context, 

Autospell, should have been "nomenclature I use in this context". 

[TranquilTurmoil]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

Back on yin and yang and their meaning, I get it that heaven is referred to as yang, and earth as yin, but I think the patriarchal error is to see only heaven as valuable. From the external yellow court:

“My spirits, Hun and Po, dwell within the centre.”

Wo Shen Hun Po Zai Zhong Yang

 

…If people were able to constantly have 

clarity and tranquility, they would then

understand that all of the Heaven [the Hun]
and Earth [the Po] return to the Tao. 
 

(p. 296-297 of Stuart Alve Olson’s external yellow court). 
 

I propose there was a time when the yang soul and the yin soul were both believed to return to the centre. 

 

 

In my understanding of heaven and earth from my study of the Yi Jing (which I’m not using anymore) is that Heaven/Earth the Creative/Receptive are complements. The good student emulates earth (and heaven at times?) and receives direction and blessings from heaven. Being receptive, open, “empty” , one follows the will of heaven and embodies it in the world of form.

 

I don’t know if this answers questions about the internal qualities of yin and yang and if yin has a place in later stages of development. But you certainly make use of both yin and yang on the path although the tendency is to sort of “make room” for yang. Limited knowledge, limited perspective of course.

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

 

The good student emulates earth (and heaven at times?) and receives direction and blessings from heaven. Being receptive, open, “empty” , one follows the will of heaven 

Liu Yiming disagree. 

At least for students of Nei Dan Shu. 

He wrote that the Ming that is the Destiny of Heaven is false, the Ming that is the Breath of the Tao is true. 

[TranquilTurmoil]

9 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Liu Yiming disagree. 

At least for students of Nei Dan Shu. 

He wrote that the Ming that is the Destiny of Heaven is false, the Ming that is the Breath of the Tao is true. 

I figured that my advice/perspective was at best a stepping stone, and at worst not correct. However, didn’t Liu YiMing use the book of changes (yi jing)? Was the the “destiny of heaven” to be disregarded altogether or was it to be transcended eventually/ultimately? What does this mean in practical terms.

 

I have no experience or really even exposure to nei dan, and I may only be asking from an intellectual perspective as I’m willing myself toward Buddhism more these days, but then again, who knows?

[TranquilTurmoil]

@virtue is playing both sides of the fence… he liked both of our posts! Lol

[senseless virtue]

@TranquilTurmoil I can "like" the conversation flowing and insights developing without any attachment to particular arguments.

Edited August 22, 2021 by virtue

[TranquilTurmoil]

24 minutes ago, virtue said:

@TranquilTurmoil I can "like" the conversation flowing and insights developing without any attachment to particular arguments.

Very Tao… or is it Zen? 🧐

 

okay I’m done now lol

[Bindi]

Another pair of opposites (not really yin and yang but I thought I’d post it here cos they’re still opposites) that I wonder about is ‘You’ and ‘Mao’. In the external yellow court there are two references to You and Mao, first “It will pass through the Six Mansions and be stored in You and Mao”, and second “ The left is You, the right Mao, this is my chamber” (You You Zuo Mao Shi Wu Shi). 
 

Reading this it seems to state that You and Mao are right and left, and yet in Wu Chengzi’s commentary Mao and Wu “relate to the Spine Handle and solar plexus of the body” (p.300), and this is repeated in The Illustration of the Lesser Heavenly Circuit of the Cauldron and Stove diagram (Xiang Tian Zhou Ding Lu Tu), where the written explanation of the diagram (p. 269) states that “Zi and Wu are the supporting poles of the spine for Mao on the back and You on the front of the body.” 
 

Can anyone explain why You and Mao are referenced as left and right in the external yellow court verse and front and back in other sources? 
 

(I tried numerous times to post screen shots of the relevant pages and diagrams but I am unable to due to technical incompetence or the limitations of my iPad.) 

 

 

[Cleansox]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Reading this it seems to state that You and Mao are right and left, 
/... ... /

Can anyone explain why You and Mao are referenced as left and right in the external yellow court verse and front and back in other sources? 

They are looking at a side view of the body? 

The original yellow court stanza is to short and vague to draw any conclusion, I think. 

[Cleansox]

8 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

Was the the “destiny of heaven” to be disregarded altogether or was it to be transcended eventually/ultimately?

Transcended, because it relates to going "with the flow", not against it. 

8 hours ago, TranquilTurmoil said:

What does this mean in practical terms.

One should involve oneself in proper practice, study it, and aim for celestial immortality. 

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Cleansox said:

They are looking at a side view of the body? 

The original yellow court stanza is to short and vague to draw any conclusion, I think. 

I went back to the first stanza “It will pass through the Six Mansions and be stored in You and Mao” and Wu Chengzi’s commentary, he writes “ The spirits of the kidneys brings about abundant essence. The left is the Royal Father, the right is the Royal Mother. These two Qi intertwine and place themselves in the Six Mansions. Above they gather within the eyes. The left is You and the right is Mao.”

 

In the translator’s notes (pg. 286) Olson writes “You and Mao are used here as names for the left and right eyes, and indicate that the two spirits of the kidneys (Royal Father and Royal Mother) gather and meet there.”

 

This sounds a lot like ida and pingala to me, travelling up in a serpentine form and ending in the left and right eye. Is it possible that these channels were known and being referred to under the name Royal Father and Royal Mother? It would require a lot more information and study which I don’t feel capable of, but tentatively it looks to me as if this left/right ida/pingala concept might have transformed over time into back/front Renmai and Dumai concepts. 
 

Edit: I am reminded of the sun and moon eyes in the Nei Jing tu, though I don’t see the ‘intertwining’ there. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Bindi

[freeform]

On 22/08/2021 at 12:02 PM, Bindi said:

I believe there is a lot of precedence for equating yin and yang with Po and Hun souls

Po is the earthly, Yin aspect of the soul. Hun is the heavenly, Yang aspect of the soul.

 

The Po returns to earth upon death - the Hun returns to heaven upon death.

 

But the soul is different to the spirit.

[Bindi]

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

Po is the earthly, Yin aspect of the soul. Hun is the heavenly, Yang aspect of the soul.

 

The Po returns to earth upon death - the Hun returns to heaven upon death.

 

But the soul is different to the spirit.

In your tradition do you work with the Po soul? Does it contain anything of value? 

[freeform]

35 minutes ago, Bindi said:

In your tradition do you work with the Po soul? Does it contain anything of value? 

 

Of course.

 

Clarity, order, discernment, reason... an aspect of groundedness - even a fashion sense and a sense of aesthetic taste

 

Our connection with the manifest world comes through the Po.

 

And so on the flip side, it can become overly attached to the manifest and the physical.

[Bindi]

27 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Of course.

 

Clarity, order, discernment, reason... an aspect of groundedness - even a fashion sense and a sense of aesthetic taste

 

Our connection with the manifest world comes through the Po.

 

And so on the flip side, it can become overly attached to the manifest and the physical.

I agree with this author when he says “[Po]… is the [qi] of the Lesser Yin, and works in him, governing the emotions ([qing] 情).  [Po] is connected with the idea of brightening ([bai] 白), for with the emotions the interior (of the personality) is governed.”
 

Clarity, order, discernment and reason sound more Yang to me.