Yin and Yang

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

and what do you think this verse about?

 

I don’t like the translation to be honest.

 

——

 

The motion of Dao is through return.

Dao achieves through receptivity.

 

The myriad beings originate from existence, and existence arises from nothingness.

 

——

Edited August 27, 2021 by freeform

[Antares]

On 27.08.2021 at 7:14 PM, freeform said:

I don’t like the translation to be honest.

Translation of DDJ should be done by daoist master, but not by any curious researcher. I saw the translation by Teacher of Single Yang of this chapter and he says that something must be reverted and it has crucial practical aspect of Neidan. And it concerns Yin and Yang aspects of a person 

[Bindi]

On 24/08/2021 at 10:30 PM, Master Logray said:

 

There are 2 usages of Yin and Yang.  The first explanation is Yang is superior, Yin is not desirable.  Lu Dong Bin, one of the eight immortals, and being the "in-charge" of Taoist religion, has another name Lu "Pure Yang".   We accumulate Yang Chi in the LDT etc.   On a day to day basis, a TCM doctor would say your Yang Chi is insufficient and sicknesses arise.  While a person is having Yin Chi, let say green and black eyes, bad conditions, then it is usual to suspect some spirits may have entered the body.

 

The second common usage is as per Yi Jing or philosophical line.  Yin/Yang are symbols of opposing/harmonising states/forces like active/passive, expanding/contracting, up/down etc.

 

It is usually not difficult to differentiate the two usages in normal discussions with additional information from the context.  But Taoist classics may not distinguish between the two clearly.  So some care must be taken in reading.

Yes this seems to be exactly the case. I guess my next question would be is anything lost or blurred or put out of balance in the progression from ‘philosophical’ Yin/Yang as symbol of opposing/harmonising to ‘Yang is superior/Yin is not desirable? 

[Bindi]

On 27/08/2021 at 10:11 PM, freeform said:

oh I see - I misunderstood.

 

The DDJ is all about humility… what I’d call divine humility. It’s a Yin quality.

 

The Yin of the Xin invites heaven to earth.

 

Verse 10

Can you govern the Po, embrace the union and never
separate from this way?

 

Can you gather Qi until it is as pliable as a newborn infant?

 

Can you clarify the mysterious perception until it is
without distortion?

 

Can you love your people and govern the country without contrivance?

Can you open and close the gate of Heaven, while
maintaining the feminine?

Can the light of your illumination penetrate the four directions without contriving?

Give life, and raise the people. 
 

Give life, but do not possess, allow action, but do not take credit.

 

Lead, without dominating.

 

This is the most mysterious of De.

 

  Quote

Verse 36

To compress it, first extend it.

To soften it, first strengthen it.

Before abandoning it, first build it.

Before grasping it, first surrender yourself to it.

This is the subtle nature of enlightenment.

 

  Quote

Verse 39

When sages attained union, Heaven became pure and Earth became still.

When spirit achieves union, you become divine.

When the valleys attain union, they become full.

When myriad beings attain union, they become fertile.

When rulers attain union, they become unequalled below Heaven.

[…]

To attain union, we must achieve humility.

The high must have the low as it’s root.
[…]

 

 

 

I read numerous translations of the first line of chapter ten which refers directly to the Po soul, and I found the translation changes the entire perspective. 
 

You quoted  “Can you govern the Po, embrace the union and never
separate from this way?”
 

Alternatively I found:

 

"Unite physically and mentally to embrace One.(David H.Li)

 

When the intelligent and animal souls are held together in one embrace, they can be kept from separating. (Legge)

Can you unify hun and p'o into one and not let them be divided? (Chang Chung-Yuan)

 

In bringing your spiritual (ying) and bodily (p'o) souls to embrace the One (Ellen Marie Chen)

 

 

These translations all remind me of the quote in the external yellow court which I posted earlier, 
 

“My spirits, Hun and Po, dwell within the centre.”

Wo Shen Hun Po Zai Zhong Yang

 

…If people were able to constantly have 

clarity and tranquility, they would then

understand that all of the Heaven [the Hun]
and Earth [the Po] return to the Tao. 
 

(p. 296-297 of Stuart Alve Olson’s external yellow court).

 

There is no reference to governing the Po or separating out the Yang from the Yin, there is only a reference to bringing the Po and Hun souls together and keeping them from separating. 

 

 

[Cleansox]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

Yes this seems to be exactly the case. I guess my next question would be is anything lost or blurred or put out of balance in the progression from ‘philosophical’ Yin/Yang as symbol of opposing/harmonising to ‘Yang is superior/Yin is not desirable? 

If "yang is superior/yin is not desirable" stands for "releasing cognitive, emotional and physiological conditioning to life events/ following ones cognitive, emotional and physiological conditioning to life events", then I would say that in this case yang is harmonizing and yin leads to disharmony. 

 

But it is also a concept used in a rather limited context, spiritual practice, and as @Master Lograywrote, care have to be taken in reading so one doesn't fall into the trap of using this as a way to trample women or create unbalance in other ways. 

 

Liu Yiming writes: "For the celestial to grow and the mundane to wane/... ... / the great Tao may be aspired to. "

 

But this is based upon yin and yang merging into one, which again points to yin-yang as context derived. 

 

What might relate to the post above, Liu Yiming continues (solving symbolic language, p282-283):

Yet even through the energy of acquired conditioning has not yet disappeared, since the primordial has been restored, conditioning submits to it and cannot cause harm. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Cleansox
Added stuff

[freeform]

15 hours ago, Antares said:

Translation of DDJ should be done by daoist master, but not by any curious researcher.

Indeed. Most translations are made by translators - not people that have ever had insight into real Daoist practice.

 

15 hours ago, Antares said:

something must be reverted and it has crucial practical aspect of Neidan.

Yes. The return.

 

This isn’t talking about a process being undertaken by a sage. This is the nature of Dao.

 

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

There is no reference to governing the Po or separating out the Yang from the Yin, there is only a reference to bringing the Po and Hun souls together and keeping them from separating. 

There’s are many translations. I don’t do comparative translation discussions.

 

The translation I presented doesn’t mention about separating yang from yin.
 

In fact all the quotes are meant to show the importance of both Yin and Yang.

[Master Logray]

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

Yes this seems to be exactly the case. I guess my next question would be is anything lost or blurred or put out of balance in the progression from ‘philosophical’ Yin/Yang as symbol of opposing/harmonising to ‘Yang is superior/Yin is not desirable? 

 

I don't really understand your question.  Perhaps it can be explained in this way.   Let say Yang Chi is Money.  The more is considered the better.   Yin Chi like debts, dirty money is not desirable.

 

While the Yin/Yang principle looks after how one interacts with money.  Uncontrolled spending/over investment etc are considered too Yang.  Pure saving/hoarding money under your bed would be too Yin.  Some kind of balance, harmonising is necessary.

 

There is no transition from one to the other.  They are separate, although inter-related.

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

18 hours ago, Cleansox said:

If "yang is superior/yin is not desirable" stands for "releasing cognitive, emotional and physiological conditioning to life events/ following ones cognitive, emotional and physiological conditioning to life events", then I would say that in this case yang is harmonizing and yin leads to disharmony. 

 

 

I have come to the conclusion that if I could break the word associations of Yin-female and Yang-male I would have no problem with any of this, unfortunately I can’t break those word chains, and I don’t think I’d ever even want to. Oh well. I think I’m better off working with the true yin/true yang model, far more productive and wholesome for me. In this model, true Yang without true Yin would be as unbalanced as a cart with one wheel. 

 

Quote

 

 

But it is also a concept used in a rather limited context, spiritual practice, and as @Master Lograywrote, care have to be taken in reading so one doesn't fall into the trap of using this as a way to trample women or create unbalance in other ways. 

 

Liu Yiming writes: "For the celestial to grow and the mundane to wane/... ... / the great Tao may be aspired to. "

 

But this is based upon yin and yang merging into one, which again points to yin-yang as context derived. 

 

What might relate to the post above, Liu Yiming continues (solving symbolic language, p282-283):

Yet even through the energy of acquired conditioning has not yet disappeared, since the primordial has been restored, conditioning submits to it and cannot cause harm. 

 

[Geof Nanto]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

I have come to the conclusion that if I could break the word associations of Yin-female and Yang-male I would have no problem with any of this, unfortunately I can’t break those word chains, and I don’t think I’d ever even want to. Oh well. I think I’m better off working with the true yin/true yang model, far more productive and wholesome for me. In this model, true Yang without true Yin would be as unbalanced as a cart with one wheel. 

 

 

 

I’ve mentioned in previous threads how helpful and complementary to Neidan I find the conceptual imagery of Western alchemy for gaining insight into my actual experiences of alchemical  transmutation:

 

Rebis (from Wikipedia)

 

The Rebis (from the Latin res bina, meaning dual or double matter) is the end product of the alchemical magnum opus or great work.

 

After one has gone through the stages of putrefaction and purification, separating opposing qualities, those qualities are united once more in what is sometimes described as the divine hermaphrodite, a reconciliation of spirit and matter, a being of both male and female qualities as indicated by the male and female head within a single body. The sun and moon correspond to the male and female halves, just as the Red King and White Queen are similarly associated.

 

 

Rebis from Theoria Philosophiae Hermeticae (1617) by Heinrich Nollius

[Bindi]

@Yueya, I came across these paragraphs yesterday, I thought they might resonate with you:

 

Another Daoist practice that has made its way into modern Qigong is inner observation or neiguan, the active, conscious introspection of one’s body and mind. As documented in texts since the Tang dynasty, and in particular in the Scripture of Inner Observation (Neiguan jing; see Kohn 1989), practitioners are guided to turn their perception inside and realize the realities of body energies and consciousness movements within. Soon they begin to understand how they function and react both physically and psychologically. With prolonged practice, they become aware of the subtler energies of life and see themselves increasingly in terms of Qi-patterns than ego-centered actions. As the Scripture of Inner Observation says, adepts come to see the body as part of Heaven and Earth, raised through yang and nourished by yin, helped and guarded by the spirit and material souls, organized in accordance with the five phases and the six musical tones, radiating with the power of the seven stars and the eight luminaries.

 

They learn that beyond their tangible Qi, they consist to a large extend of spirit (shen), the primordial, formless, and ever-changing force, which in connection with the physical body causes human beings to be alive. Manifested in the human mind, where it is often distorted to serve egoistic and one-sided needs, spirit is brought back to a state of rest as the mind is concentrated and relaxed. Adepts come to see that just as the Dao pervades the universe in utmost perfection, so spirit working through their mind can govern their life perfectly—that is, as long as it is observed and cultivated and not wasted on sensual amusements and the exertions of the senses. From confusion and defilement, adepts recover the primordial state.

 

Doing so, they come to realize the impermanent nature of the ego-based vision of self and body and replace this identity with one that consists of an assemblance of energy, essence, and spirit. They realize in their own lives the dictum of Zhuangzi that “human life is a coming-together of Qi. If it comes together there is life. If it scatters there is death” (Watson 1968, 235). Human life is only one part of the continuous natural transformations of Qi; it is merely borrowed from heaven and earth but since it resembles them closely in its structuring and undergoes the same transformations as all creation, it can be made just as perfect, just as flowing, just as eternal. Realizing this inherent nature of life and themselves, adepts see that there is no true master of body and mind and acknowledge how little conscious control they have over life’s transformations. Increasingly able to let life and the body go on changing as they please, they can forget themselves and dissolve into the higher patterns of the Dao.

 

This Dao, in the Daoist context, however, is not just a flow of energies, but populated by gods, spirits, and other supernatural entities. As the practitioner becomes more attuned to his life and body as the universe, he or she also comes to actively perceive the gods and spirits as inhabitants of the human body. The body and thus the self becomes increasingly a microcosmic replica of the starry heavens above, full of palaces and chambers, towers and terraces, gods and immortals. The deities who reside in the paradises of the otherworld are as much at home in the adept’s body, and again—as through the ingestion of the five sprouts—the adept comes to cosmicize his or her self, expanding identity into a larger sphere.

 

From Livia Kohn Here

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Bindi

[Bindi]

Regarding the value of cultivating Yin and Yang, and the concept of ‘Yin Shen’ being complementary to Yang Shen instead of something to be shunned, this paragraph from the External Yellow Court may shed some light: 

 

”When the two spirits [Yin and Yang, NT] match and fit, they will produce Yu Ying, the Jade Glory. From above it receives the primordial breath energy that extends life. It scouts and protects the seven orifices and banishes misfortunes. It makes the sun and the moon present and expands Yin and Yang. Then it hides in the T’ai Yin, the Extreme Yin and forms a body. ~  translated by Jane Huang

 

 Two spirits together acquire the transformation of the Jade Hero. From above the Heavenly Qi is received, granting increased life. The sun and moon are arranged to make known the Yin and Yang. The ruler of the Five Viscera are the kidneys, essential for the essence. Concealed within the Ultimate Yin, my body is made complete. ~ translated by Stuart Alve Olsen

Yin and Yang, matched and fitted together, produce the ‘green spirit’ and primordial breath or heavenly Qi (ie., Shen) will be received. This ‘green spirit’ then hides in or is concealed within extreme or ultimate Yin to create an immortal body. What is ultimate Yin if not True Yin? And none of this can happen if yin and yang aren’t matched and fitted together in the first place. 
 

This is not a method that aims to reduce yin and increase yang on any level. 

 

 

 

[Antares]

On 29.08.2021 at 1:50 PM, freeform said:

Yes. The return.

 

This isn’t talking about a process being undertaken by a sage. This is the nature of Dao.

 

Yes, but this is relevant to the practice, is not it? Yes, Lao Tzu wrote about Not-Doing mostly in DDJ. 

 

On 27.08.2021 at 5:11 PM, freeform said:

The DDJ is all about humility… what I’d call divine humility. It’s a Yin quality.

 

The Yin of the Xin invites heaven to earth.

 

Just Yin quality may be wrong approach in practice. And this depends on whether it is Xing precedes Ming, Ming precedes Xing, or dual cultivation is undertaken by practitioner. Not sure which of them was practised at the time of Lao Tzu. But these days just "Yin quality" approach may lead one to nowhere 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Antares

[Antares]

On 30.08.2021 at 3:37 AM, Bindi said:

I came across these paragraphs yesterday, I thought they might resonate with you:

 

Another Daoist practice that has made its way into modern Qigong is inner observation or neiguan, the active, conscious introspection of one’s body and mind. As documented in texts since the Tang dynasty, and in particular in the Scripture of Inner Observation (Neiguan jing; see Kohn 1989), practitioners are guided to turn their perception inside and realize the realities of body energies and consciousness movements within. Soon they begin to understand how they function and react both physically and psychologically. With prolonged practice, they become aware of the subtler energies of life and see themselves increasingly in terms of Qi-patterns than ego-centered actions.

 

She seems to talk about qigong approach. But what is yin and yang, true yin and true yang? How to couple them? 

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, Antares said:

 

She seems to talk about qigong approach. But what is yin and yang, true yin and true yang? How to couple them? 

For me yin and yang are best envisioned as Ida and Pingala Nadis. 
 

Quote

 

The Ida and Pingala represent the basic duality in the existence. It is this duality which we traditionally personify as Shiva and Shakti. Or you can simply call it masculine and feminine, or it can be the logical and the intuitive aspect of you. It is based on this that life is created. Without these two dualities, life wouldn’t exist as it does right now. In the beginning, everything is primordial, there is no duality. But once creation happens, there is duality.

 

When I say masculine and feminine, I am not talking in terms of sex – about being male or female – but in terms of certain qualities in nature. Certain qualities in nature have been identified as masculine. Certain other qualities have been identified as feminine. You may be a man, but if your Ida is more pronounced, the feminine may be dominant in you. You may be a woman, but if your Pingala is more pronounced, the masculine may be dominant in you. ~ Sadhguru

 

 

True Yin and True Yang IME swap certain specific ‘natural’ qualities, so that what we might think of as a Yang quality is actually True Yin, and vice versa. 
 

As far as I can tell, it is Ida Nadi that is most blocked in humanity nowadays, maybe it has been for a long time - in the DDJ it states “Know the white, keep to the black”. Know the ‘masculine’ energies but keep to the “feminine” energies. I have found that 99% of what I needed to do was in the Ida channel, the Pingala channel was hardly any work, and always very brief. When energy is flowing freely in both, they couple naturally. 
 

 

 

 

 

[exorcist_1699]

On 2021/8/25 at 1:53 AM, freeform said:

Men and women have slightly different processes in ‘middle’ stage of alchemical practice. The early and late stages are the same for both sexes.

 

In general  , men start from lower dantian and women start from middle dantian  , so at  the initial stage they  start  differently * . Once the basic job achieved (  men stop their leakage of jing , no matter in awaken or  sleeping status;  women get rid of their red dragons ) , they then go on the same path  . Women's path of alchemical cultivation looks  easier because their red dragons'  forms  fixed and  emergence regular  to deal with  provided that they are free from diseases .  Men's weekly,  fortnightly release of jing  are more irregular to be identified , so their  white tiger are hardly  founded and tamed . However, women need to get a very bold and unconventional mindset , and be careful to the liver qi's  influence on them  , so as  to take advantage of the predominance.

 

* For other gifted people , they can start from the upper dantian , from  edge of the  body (  nose tip  or somewhere just before eyes )  , from emptiness outside of the body  or  from nowhere .  Of course, starting from different  places / no places  means they  will  face  different  problems  or  lost   in nowhere   afterwards..

Edited November 24, 2021 by exorcist_1699

[Bindi]

15 minutes ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

In general  , men start from lower dantian and women start from middle dantian  , so at  the initial stage they  start  differently * . Once the basic job achieved (  men stop their leakage of jing , no matter in awaken or  sleeping status;  women get rid of their red dragons ) , they then go on the same path  . Women's path of alchemical cultivation looks  easier because their red dragons ,  forms  more fixed and  emergence more  regular  , to deal with  provided that they are free from diseases .  Men's weekly,  fortnightly release of jing  are more irregular to be identified , so their  white tiger are hardly be founded and tamed . However, women need to get a very bold and unconventional mindset , and sensitive to the liver qi's  influence on them  , so as  to take advantage of the predominance.

 

* For gifted people , they can start from the upper dantian , from  edge of the  body (  nose tip  or somewhere just before eyes )  , from emptiness outside of the body  or  from nowhere .  Of course, starting from different  places  means they  will face varied  problems/advantages  afterwards..

I cannot fathom how stopping menstruation would a) be possible without starvation or menopause, or b.) would indicate spiritual progress. It’s not like menstruation is associated with desire or lack of it in any way. To me at least, stopping menstruation is not equivalent to semen retention, and seems more like a false association born from lack of physiological knowledge and external equivalence. 
 

Also, I’m a woman, yet found I was drawn to starting from my lower dantian. 

[freeform]

5 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

In general  , men start from lower dantian and women start from middle dantian

 

In my tradition everyone starts with the lower Dantien.

 

5 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Once the basic job achieved (  men stop their leakage of jing , no matter in awaken or  sleeping status;  women get rid of their red dragons )

 

Slaying the red dragon is only recommended for nuns and renunciates… it’s less like menopause and more like going back to a pre-puberty stage.

 

And stopping the leakage of Jing is far more subtle than what you’re suggesting above.

 

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

or b.) would indicate spiritual progress

 

Its not spiritual (none of this is spiritual until you penetrate through to the original spirit).

 

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

To me at least, stopping menstruation is not equivalent to semen retention, and seems more like a false association born from lack of physiological knowledge and external equivalence. 

Haha - so walking through walls, teleportation, transforming physical substances all pass your BS detector, but this doesn’t? That’s interesting  
 

The Blood and the Jing form a key aspect of the Daoist arts.

 

These are not just the physical blood and the semen. This is an often repeated misunderstanding.

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

In my tradition everyone starts with the lower Dantien.

 

 

That’s a tick for your tradition 😉

 

Quote

 

Slaying the red dragon is only recommended for nuns and renunciates… it’s less like menopause and more like going back to a pre-puberty stage.

 

And stopping the leakage of Jing is far more subtle than what you’re suggesting above.

 

 

Its not spiritual (none of this is spiritual until you penetrate through to the original spirit).

 

 

Good to hear. 

 

Quote

Haha - so walking through walls, teleportation, transforming physical substances all pass your BS detector, but this doesn’t? That’s interesting  
 

The Blood and the Jing form a key aspect of the Daoist arts.

 

These are not just the physical blood and the semen. This is an often repeated misunderstanding.

Yes I was taking it as actual blood and semen only, what is the non-physical counterpart of blood and semen? 

[Antares]

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

For me yin and yang are best envisioned as Ida and Pingala Nadis. 

 

Daosits have their own perspective on yin and yang. They both can have post- and preheaven qualities. The most accurate approximation from daoist perspective is that yin is water and yang is fire as for postheaven qualities. Xing and Ming are preheaven qualities they hold. 

 

Most systems work with postheaven qualities and rare system works on preheaven level nowadays. As for yoga I suppose it is postheaven work mostly. Some Tibetan yogic systems might work on preheaven level. But I would prefer to discuss it from Daoist perspective. And I believe that the work must be done on preheaven level from the very beginning. This is how all ancient practices worked and this is what Lao Tzu wrote about in DDJ 

[-_sometimes]

6 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I was taking it as actual blood and semen only, what is the non-physical counterpart of blood and semen

According to my understanding, Jing is dense, but not dense enough to be physical. Neither blood nor semen are Jing, I don't know about women, but the issue with semen is not the semen in itself, it's the energy required to ejaculate. Excess of anything 'contrived' causes leakage of Jing; feeling lustful, ejaculation, intense emotions, a scattered mind, excess thought, worry, fear, poor diet, poor quality sleep, excess consumption, lots of distraction.

 

I have read that cutting off leakage of Jing is impossible, you can only conserve it. I don't know about congenital Jing though

[Bindi]

22 minutes ago, Antares said:

 

Daosits have their own perspective on yin and yang. They both can have post- and preheaven qualities. The most accurate approximation from daoist perspective is that yin is water and yang is fire as for postheaven qualities. Xing and Ming are preheaven qualities they hold. 

 

Most systems work with postheaven qualities and rare system works on preheaven level nowadays. As for yoga I suppose it is postheaven work mostly. Some Tibetan yogic systems might work on preheaven level. But I would prefer to discuss it from Daoist perspective. And I believe that the work must be done on preheaven level from the very beginning. This is how all ancient practices worked and this is what Lao Tzu wrote about in DDJ 

I honestly think when it comes to these major polarities ida and pingala really are talking about the same concept as yin and yang:

 

Ida is on the left side and called the lunar nadi. It is associated with feminine energy, active at night and contain water properties. Pingala is on the right side and is called the solar or the sun nadi. It is associated with masculine energy, active during the day and contains fire properties. 

 

But I fully respect you wanting to come at it from a purely Daoist perspective. I particularly resonate with the daoist descriptions of dantians, jing qi and Shen etc. I just happen to like the Ida/pingala concept to clarify duality. 

[Antares]

10 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I just happen to like the Ida/pingala concept to clarify duality. 

 

But the question then how to apply this knowledge to the real practice? 

[Bindi]

27 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

According to my understanding, Jing is dense, but not dense enough to be physical. Neither blood nor semen are Jing, I don't know about women, but the issue with semen is not the semen in itself, it's the energy required to ejaculate. Excess of anything 'contrived' causes leakage of Jing; feeling lustful, ejaculation, intense emotions, a scattered mind, excess thought, worry, fear, poor diet, poor quality sleep, excess consumption, lots of distraction.

 

I have read that cutting off leakage of Jing is impossible, you can only conserve it. I don't know about congenital Jing though

To completely pare it down, does jing naturally fall downwards when it follows sexual desire (in men and women), but it actually has to travel upwards to reach the middle dantian, which is why desire is such an important issue. 

 

 

[MIchael80]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

I honestly think when it comes to these major polarities ida and pingala really are talking about the same concept as yin and yang:

 

Ida is on the left side and called the lunar nadi. It is associated with feminine energy, active at night and contain water properties. Pingala is on the right side and is called the solar or the sun nadi. It is associated with masculine energy, active during the day and contains fire properties. 

 

But I fully respect you wanting to come at it from a purely Daoist perspective. I particularly resonate with the daoist descriptions of dantians, jing qi and Shen etc. I just happen to like the Ida/pingala concept to clarify duality. 

The Tamil siddhas have ida and pingala (which is sun and moon) and also the fire and water channel (which is what daoists call the mco) ... both Yin and Yang systems must be worked on. 😊

 

Preheaven/alchemical mco is different. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by MIchael80

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

 

But the question then how to apply this knowledge to the real practice? 

Stuff everything in the center until the center expands, thus creating the body outside the body?