Yin and Yang

[Antares]

1 hour ago, Cleansox said:

Stuff everything in the center until the center expands, thus creating the body outside the body? 

 

What is the center and how to come to it? 

[Cleansox]

The center will open up by itself when one has done enough of foundation work. 

[Master Logray]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

I honestly think when it comes to these major polarities ida and pingala really are talking about the same concept as yin and yang:

 

Ida is on the left side and called the lunar nadi. It is associated with feminine energy, active at night and contain water properties. Pingala is on the right side and is called the solar or the sun nadi. It is associated with masculine energy, active during the day and contains fire properties. 

 

But I fully respect you wanting to come at it from a purely Daoist perspective. I particularly resonate with the daoist descriptions of dantians, jing qi and Shen etc. I just happen to like the Ida/pingala concept to clarify duality. 

 

As @Antares says, Taoist not only different in the depth i.e. pre and post-heaven level, they are also dynamic.  While in other systems, male and female forces are static, male is always male and female is always female.  In Taoist system, yang when it reaches full maturity, female force germinates and gradually takeovers the male force. When the female reaches its peak, the seed of the yang is sown and becomes the ascendance again.  In a way, the 2 polarities changes into another.

 

[Antares]

6 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

The center will open up by itself when one has done enough of foundation work. 

 

There seems to be a very broad understanding of the "foundation work". 

[Cleansox]

You are right. 

Lets specify:

 

In the tradition I practice, the center opens up by itself when the more peripheral systems and pathways are adequately balanced and open. 

 

I'm sure there are more direct ways of doing it, but in my experience, every time I have tried a shortcut it turned out to being a detour. 

[Antares]

24 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

You are right. 

Lets specify:

 

In the tradition I practice, the center opens up by itself when the more peripheral systems and pathways are adequately balanced and open. 

 

I'm sure there are more direct ways of doing it, but in my experience, every time I have tried a shortcut it turned out to being a detour. 

 

Do you use any terminology to describe this process and any specific work in stances/seated practices and awareness (Yi) is involved in this process? 

[Cleansox]

Yes. 

(Ok, you probably want me to use a few more words 😁) 

 

There are probably a really fancy name for the process, but my teacher didn't care much about those, so basically I have a name for the standing position and a vague description on what to expect. 

I have only found two references to it (as I can identify) in translated books on the subject, and both descriptions are vague. There is a fair description on the actual stance in one of the above texts, so I would guess that the method used to be fairly established in daoist lineages. 

Haven't found it in newer material though. 

[Antares]

TRUE EARTH ARRESTS TRUE LEAD;
TRUE LEAD CONTROLS TRUE MERCURY.
LEAD AND MERCURY RETURN TO TRUE EARTH;
BODY AND MIND ARE TRANQUIL AND STILL.
 

[Cleansox]

The process I had in mind comes after the one described above. 

(I started this with mentioning the expansion.) 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Cleansox
Added stuff

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

As @Antares says, Taoist not only different in the depth i.e. pre and post-heaven level, they are also dynamic.  While in other systems, male and female forces are static, male is always male and female is always female.  In Taoist system, yang when it reaches full maturity, female force germinates and gradually takeovers the male force. When the female reaches its peak, the seed of the yang is sown and becomes the ascendance again.  In a way, the 2 polarities changes into another.

 

I am influenced by what someone ‘saw’ coming out of my eyes many years ago, which involves this dynamic cycle between the black and the white channel. What would a daoist make of this? There were two small swords, I only painted the hilt, the rest of the sword was also gold. 

 

[Bindi]

Is semen retention the aim for men, or stopping the production of semen? For a woman to stop menstruating ovulation would need to stop, I’m still trying to comprehend if the same fundamental change is required for men, or if it is just overcoming desire for men.  

[Apech]

14 hours ago, Bindi said:

Is semen retention the aim for men, or stopping the production of semen? For a woman to stop menstruating ovulation would need to stop, I’m still trying to comprehend if the same fundamental change is required for men, or if it is just overcoming desire for men.  

 

As I understand it jing is the most condensed form of qi that is still non physical.  So it is subtle body energy operating at the most condensed (lowest vibration) level and acts as a kind of fuel or battery for life.  The aim for men is to guard the three treasures which means jing, qi and shen - which are a spectrum.  Although jing is non-physical it is stored in the kidney region and affects biological functions around reproduction (as well as other things).  So part of its effect would be sperm production - but once the sperm is created it is obviously a physical fluid and no longer jing.  For either normal health or if you are attempting an alchemical process (Nei Dan), jing should not be dissipated ... some say not at all (which probably relates to the minimum 100 days before working with LDT and MCO etc.) or more generally not too liberally as it will become depleted and the body will suffer.

 

"Therefore, always (ch'ang) without desire (wu-yü),
In order to observe (kuan) the hidden mystery (miao);
Always (ch'ang) with desire (yu-yü),
In order to observe the manifestations (chiao).
Alternate,

Therefore, by the Everlasting (ch'ang) Non-Being (wu),
We desire (yü) to observe (kuan) its hidden mystery (miao).
By the Everlasting (ch'ang) Being (yu),
We desire (yü) to observe the manifestations (chiao). "

 

Translated by Ellen M. Chen, 1989, Chapter 1 

 

On a basic level if you want to conserve jing you have to master casual desire - so at an ordinary cultivation level you have to avoid a dissolute life of gratification - so in this sense it is about overcoming desire.

 

But on a deeper level there is a function of your being/consciousness which could be called intent or aspiration or will ... or just to say 'how you direct your attention'.  If this is uncultivated it just follows whatever distracts you ... and usually toward pleasure and often indolence.  If you can train your mind to a degree ... and I mean this in a cultivation sense much as you might tame a wild animal ... then in 'non-desire' (wu-yu) the secrets of the hidden mystery (which is the original nature) can be revealed.  But that's not really enough as it would be trying to keep everything in an unformed state ... so in actual practice allowing desire to arise then opens up the mysteries of myriad things - the infinite variety of expressions of being -  to be understood.

 

There is a balance between attending to your mind/being and just allowing it.  So for instance in attending to it you do not suppress its naturalness or expression and in allowing it you don't just become like an ordinary person or animal thoughtlessly following your desires.

 

Jing conservation is part of this because the natural state revealed is like an ocean of jing which activates in qi and illuminates itself in shen.  The subtle body with its channels, centres and flow is the structure which makes this possible, it is eternal and more essentially your self than the physical body you drag around daily (although the physical body is a mystery in itself and not to be denigrated.).

 

 

 

[Bindi]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

 

As I understand it jing is the most condensed form of qi that is still non physical.  So it is subtle body energy operating at the most condensed (lowest vibration) level and acts as a kind of fuel or battery for life.  The aim for men is to guard the three treasures which means jing, qi and shen - which are a spectrum.  Although jing is non-physical it is stored in the kidney region and affects biological functions around reproduction (as well as other things).  So part of its effect would be sperm production - but once the sperm is created it is obviously a physical fluid and no longer jing.  For either normal health or if you are attempting an alchemical process (Nei Dan), jing should not be dissipated ... some say not at all (which probably relates to the minimum 100 days before working with LDT and MCO etc.) or more generally not too liberally as it will become depleted and the body will suffer.

 

 

From reading about basic human biology new sperm is produced continuously whether a man ejaculates or not, so that there are always healthy sperm at hand. I suspect some neidanists then believe that sperm production itself depletes Jing? 

 

Quote

 

"Therefore, always (ch'ang) without desire (wu-yü),
In order to observe (kuan) the hidden mystery (miao);
Always (ch'ang) with desire (yu-yü),
In order to observe the manifestations (chiao).
Alternate,

Therefore, by the Everlasting (ch'ang) Non-Being (wu),
We desire (yü) to observe (kuan) its hidden mystery (miao).
By the Everlasting (ch'ang) Being (yu),
We desire (yü) to observe the manifestations (chiao). "

 

Translated by Ellen M. Chen, 1989, Chapter 1 

 

On a basic level if you want to conserve jing you have to master casual desire - so at an ordinary cultivation level you have to avoid a dissolute life of gratification - so in this sense it is about overcoming desire.

 

But on a deeper level there is a function of your being/consciousness which could be called intent or aspiration or will ... or just to say 'how you direct your attention'.  If this is uncultivated it just follows whatever distracts you ... and usually toward pleasure and often indolence.  If you can train your mind to a degree ... and I mean this in a cultivation sense much as you might tame a wild animal ... then in 'non-desire' (wu-yu) the secrets of the hidden mystery (which is the original nature) can be revealed.  But that's not really enough as it would be trying to keep everything in an unformed state ... so in actual practice allowing desire to arise then opens up the mysteries of myriad things - the infinite variety of expressions of being -  to be understood.

 

Allowing desire, and using it in a very precise way, can/will lead to an energy shift IME, but I think neidanists in general reject using desire because it is post-celestial energy. 

 

Quote

 

There is a balance between attending to your mind/being and just allowing it.  So for instance in attending to it you do not suppress its naturalness or expression and in allowing it you don't just become like an ordinary person or animal thoughtlessly following your desires.

 

Jing conservation is part of this because the natural state revealed is like an ocean of jing which activates in qi and illuminates itself in shen.  The subtle body with its channels, centres and flow is the structure which makes this possible, it is eternal and more essentially your self than the physical body you drag around daily (although the physical body is a mystery in itself and not to be denigrated.).

 

The subtle body is “more essentially your self than the physical body,” do you think there is something more essential still than the subtle body? 
 

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Bindi

[Apech]

14 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

From reading about basic human biology new sperm is produced continuously whether a man ejaculates or not, so that there are always healthy sperm at hand. I suspect some neidanists then believe that sperm production itself depletes Jing? 

 

Life depletes jing that's why we grow old and eventually die.  So the logic of what you are saying is that a man who wants physical immortality should stop producing sperm.  I think in practice this is an extreme view about which I know very little.  Beyond castration how would one stop producing sperm?  Similarly I don't know much about the female 'version' although I think Damo Mitchell has written about this.

 

 

14 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Allowing desire, and using it in a very precise way, can/will lead to an energy shift IME, but I think neidanists in general reject using desire because it is post-celestial energy. 

 

By desire I didn't necessarily mean sexual desire.  You could for instance desire to know something, or make something or just have something.  What I was pointing to is that there is an aspect of awareness which is will, aspiration, intent.  Following this leads to knowing the 10,000 things.  People who just follow giving up desire become like those austere Buddhists who abstract reality and usually look pale, thin and unhappy.  So I think the key is observing and understanding what happens if you let go of desire - and similarly see what desire itself produces.  But in either case to do this not in an indulgent way, seeing it as a kind of alternating rhythm or becoming and dying away.

 

 

 

 

14 hours ago, Bindi said:

The subtle body is “more essentially your self than the physical body,” do you think there is something more essential still than the subtle body? 
 

 

 

I think that depends on what you allow under the definition of 'self'.  If for instance you said that infinite consciousness is Self - then this could be more essentially self ... but then it is not really the same as what you might ordinarily describe as 'you' ... so is it self or not ?.... which leads to endless unproductive debate ... 

 

The subtle body has structure and function ... and while I believe it can be made so integrated that it survives death - it could also be said to disintegrate and dissipate after death (which is called the Second death) unless the alchemical work has been sufficiently developed.

 

 

[awaken]

On 2021/12/24 at 9:15 PM, Apech said:

 

Life depletes jing that's why we grow old and eventually die.  So the logic of what you are saying is that a man who wants physical immortality should stop producing sperm.  I think in practice this is an extreme view about which I know very little.  Beyond castration how would one stop producing sperm?  Similarly I don't know much about the female 'version' although I think Damo Mitchell has written about this.

 

男性的稱為降白虎，女性的稱為斬赤龍，斬赤龍根據我個人的經驗，就是生理期的血化為透明的水，只剩下組織液，而血的部分消失了，但是這只有在陽生三階段才會發生，如果程度下降到陽生二階段，就會回到原來的有血狀態。

 

男性的精，就跟女性的經，是同樣的狀況，男性的血化為精，女性的血化為經，而在陽生三階段的虛空定狀態，這些精或經，都被心臟氣化掉了，因為在陽生三階段，心輪區域有很強烈的變化，非親身經歷的人，很難了解是怎麼回事，只有親身經歷，且練到那邊的人，才能清楚的了解感受。

 

至於在丹道當中的陰陽，意義甚多，是一種相對概念，但是如果就『陰盡陽純』的角度來說，陰指的是身體層面的陰氣，這些陰氣是在修煉當中，必須要被化解掉的，而且必須用第一種陽，也就是烏肝陽魂的陽來化解，化解掉陰氣之後，就會生出第二種陽，也就是陰盡陽純的陽，一陽生的陽，這種陽有三階段，第一階段，層次比較粗淺，等於是回歸第一種陽的程度而已，第二種階段的陽，就開始凝聚蓮花曼陀羅，有形字印等型態，第三階段的陽，開始進入虛空定，也就是降白虎斬赤龍階段，此階段，開始出現大圓月，霜飛，金丹，真人，赤子等非常高等秘辛的內景，練到這邊的人，確實極少，而且也很難持續維持同樣的狀態，我有幸在十年前，經歷過這樣的狀態長達數個月，就這短短的經歷，已經足夠讓我看見修道的水有多深，世人的認識有多淺了。

 

 

不想寫英文了，看得懂就看，看不懂就算了，隨緣

Edited December 28, 2021 by awaken

[Apech]

19 hours ago, awaken said:

 

男性的稱為降白虎，女性的稱為斬赤龍，斬赤龍根據我個人的經驗，就是生理期的血化為透明的水，只剩下組織液，而血的部分消失了，但是這只有在陽生三階段才會發生，如果程度下降到陽生二階段，就會回到原來的有血狀態。

 

男性的精，就跟女性的經，是同樣的狀況，男性的血化為精，女性的血化為經，而在陽生三階段的虛空定狀態，這些精或經，都被心臟氣化掉了，因為在陽生三階段，心輪區域有很強烈的變化，非親身經歷的人，很難了解是怎麼回事，只有親身經歷，且練到那邊的人，才能清楚的了解感受。

 

至於在丹道當中的陰陽，意義甚多，是一種相對概念，但是如果就『陰盡陽純』的角度來說，陰指的是身體層面的陰氣，這些陰氣是在修煉當中，必須要被化解掉的，而且必須用第一種陽，也就是烏肝陽魂的陽來化解，化解掉陰氣之後，就會生出第二種陽，也就是陰盡陽純的陽，一陽生的陽，這種陽有三階段，第一階段，層次比較粗淺，等於是回歸第一種陽的程度而已，第二種階段的陽，就開始凝聚蓮花曼陀羅，有形字印等型態，第三階段的陽，開始進入虛空定，也就是降白虎斬赤龍階段，此階段，開始出現大圓月，霜飛，金丹，真人，赤子等非常高等秘辛的內景，練到這邊的人，確實極少，而且也很難持續維持同樣的狀態，我有幸在十年前，經歷過這樣的狀態長達數個月，就這短短的經歷，已經足夠讓我看見修道的水有多深，世人的認識有多淺了。

 

 

不想寫英文了，看得懂就看，看不懂就算了，隨緣

 

 

I hope you don't mind but I google translated this:

 

"According to my personal experience, the blood of the physiological period turns into transparent water, leaving only the tissue fluid, and the part of the blood disappears, but this only happens in the third stage of Yangsheng, and if the degree drops to the second stage of Yangsheng, it will return to the original bloody state. The male essence, just like the female sutra, is the same situation, the male blood into the sperm, the female blood into the sutra, and in the yangsheng three stage of the void state, these essences or sutras, are all vaporized by the heart, because in the third stage of yangsheng, there are very strong changes in the heart chakra area, non-personal experience, it is difficult to understand what is going on, only personal experience, and practice to that side of the person, can clearly understand the feeling. As for the yin and yang in the Dan Dao, there are many meanings, it is a relative concept, but if you look at the perspective of 'yin and yang purity', yin refers to the yin qi at the physical level, which is in cultivation, must be dissolved, and must be dissolved with the first kind of yang, that is, the yang of the black liver yang soul, after dissolving the yin qi, there will be a second kind of yang, that is, the pure yang of the yin and yang, the yang of one yang, this yang has three stages, the first stage, the level is relatively shallow, it is equivalent to returning to the degree of the first yang. The yang of the second stage begins to condense the lotus mandala, the tangible character seal and other forms, the yang of the third stage begins to enter the void concentration, that is, the stage of descending the white tiger and slashing the red dragon, this stage, the beginning of the appearance of the great full moon, frost fly, Jindan, Zhenren, Akako and other very high secret inner scenes, the people who practice to this side are indeed very few, and it is difficult to maintain the same state continuously, I have the privilege of experiencing such a state for several months ten years ago, and this short experience is enough for me to see how deep the water of the monastic path is. How shallow the world's understanding is. I don't want to write English anymore, I can read it if I can understand it, and if I don't understand it, I can't read it, just by chance"

[awaken]

非常感謝你的翻譯，我英文程度不夠，容易詞不達意，所以乾脆直接用中文寫了，你很棒，中英文都這麼強

 

你使用Yangsheng這個字來表達{陽生}，不知道這個英文字會不會和另外一個中文{陽神}有所重疊?因為這兩個字的意思是不同的。

 

根據周易參同契，陽生是練功的過程，陰盡陽純之後所出現的特殊狀態。而陽神則是悟真篇當中的烏肝狀態，兩者是不相同的。

 

而yin and yang purity表達陰盡陽純，似乎少了{盡}的意思，陰盡有一種陰沒有了，陰從很多變成很少，幾乎沒有，也就是因為陰沒有了，原來的先天之陽，才能夠透發出力量，才能產生凝聚金丹的環境。

 

再一次感謝你的翻譯，我雖然看得懂，但是英文程度不足，也找不到合適的字眼來表達，如果您能找到更適合的文字，那就太好了

 

 

[Bindi]

“This is the main secret of all traditions and practices: Tao is the balance of Yin and Yang.” 

 

Thus spake the Russians

https://ancientdao.net/foundation/ancient-method/

[Shadow_self]

On 23/11/2021 at 4:55 AM, Bindi said:

I cannot fathom how stopping menstruation would a) be possible without starvation or menopause, or b.) would indicate spiritual progress. It’s not like menstruation is associated with desire or lack of it in any way. To me at least, stopping menstruation is not equivalent to semen retention, and seems more like a false association born from lack of physiological knowledge and external equivalence. 
 

Also, I’m a woman, yet found I was drawn to starting from my lower dantian. 

 

Stopping menstruation is not the same as semen retention...

 

When you go through a certain stage of practice, what happens is that the male can lose the ability to impregnate a woman, the underpinning energetics required to make it happen, is rerouted...

 

So it isn't as much about retention (retention is different) , as it is about disabling a certain mechanism tied to orgasm/ejaculation..

 

The loss of menstruation is the female equivalent to this.

 

A bit of a crude explanation..but to the best of my knowledge this is what happens

Edited February 17, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Stopping menstruation is not the same as semen retention...

 

When you go through a certain stage of practice, what happens is that the male can lose the ability to impregnate a woman, the underpinning energetics required to make it happen, is rerouted...

 

So it isn't as much about retention (retention is different) , as it is about disabling a certain mechanism tied to orgasm/ejaculation..

 

The loss of menstruation is the female equivalent to this.

 

A bit of a crude explanation..but to the best of my knowledge this is what happens

If we can agree that these energies need to be brought up ( For example  from an earlier post “It will pass through the Six Mansions and be stored in You and Mao”  “You and Mao are used here as names for the left and right eyes, and indicate that the two spirits of the kidneys (Royal Father and Royal Mother) gather and meet there”) then it sounds like this ‘Neidan step’ must precede the “spirits of the kidneys” step, ie., the two spirits of the gonads need to be brought up to the kidneys and pass through a few other places until these same ‘spirits’ enter the left and right eyes. 

This makes sense to me at any rate, though the neidan proof seems more associated with the physical than is necessary when developing subtle energies. 

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Bindi

[Cleansox]

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

“This is the main secret of all traditions and practices: Tao is the balance of Yin and Yang.” 

 

Thus spake the Russians

https://ancientdao.net/foundation/ancient-method/

A site with potential, if the person/s running it ever care to flesh out the texts a bit.

[Bindi]

Yin in its highest form is freezing while yang in its highest form is boiling. The chilliness comes from heaven while the warmness comes from the earth. The interaction of these two establishes he (harmony), so it gives birth to things. Perhaps this is the law of everything yet there is no form being seen” (Zhuangzi, Chapter 21).

 

In none of these conceptions of yinyang is there a valuational hierarchy, as if yin could be abstracted from yang (or vice versa), regarded as superior or considered metaphysically separated and distinct. Instead, yinyang is emblematic of valuational equality rooted in the unified, dynamic, and harmonized structure of the cosmos. 

https://iep.utm.edu/yinyang/

 

In alchemy there is an ‘ultimate yin’ (and I would presume an ultimate yang), perhaps equivalent to Zhuangzi’s freezing highest yin and boiling highest yang. From the external yellow court: “Concealed within the Ultimate Yin, my body is made complete.” (Fu Yu Tai Yin Cheng Wu Xing). 
 

If Yin can be pictured as a black line in the shape of a circle, and yang can be pictured as a white line in the shape of a square, then yin in its highest form or extreme yin or ultimate yin might be pictured as a black line in the shape of a square, and vice versa for the highest form or extreme or ultimate yang, a white line in the shape of a circle. And this could be considered to be extracting true yin and true yang. 
 

And Yin in its highest form or true yin and Yang in its highest form or true yang establishes he (harmony). And true yin and true yang are still valuationally equal. 
 

He (harmony) not De (virtue, inherent character; inner power; integrity). 
 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Bindi

[Bindi]

Chapter 42 of the Laozi says that “everything is embedded in yin and embraces yang; through chong qi [vital energy] it reaches he [harmony].” It is through yinyang’s function as qi and the interaction between them that everything comes into existence. Zhuangzi also speaks about the “qi of yin and yang”: “When the qi of yin and yang are not in harmony, and cold and heat come in untimely ways, all things will be harmed.” (Zhuangzi ch. 31) On the other hand, “when the two have successful intercourse and achieve harmony, all things will be produced.” (Zhuangzi ch. 21)

https://iep.utm.edu/yinyang/

 

When the energy of yin and the energy of yang have successful ‘intercourse’ (a term that wouldn’t be thrown around lightly), and harmony is achieved, “all things will be produced”. 
 

I could only guess at what would be produced. 
 

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Bindi

[Bindi]

Yin/Queen/Mother/West/Moon/Mount Penglai and Yang/King/Father/East/Sun/Mount Kunlun as the right eye and left eye respectively. Yin and Yang are the mother and father of “a child that lives between the eyes.”

 

Quote

The Queen Mother of the West (Xiwang mu) and the King Father of the East (Dongwang fu) reside in heaven in the Northern Dipper, on earth on Mount Penglai (Penglai shan) and Mount Kunlun and within the human being in the right and left eyes, respectively. They are the father and the mother of a child who lives between the eyes, in a location that corresponds to the upper dantian. The King, who is equated with the Sun, is also known as Fu Xi; the Queen, who is equated with the Moon, is also called Great Yin, Mysterious Radiance and Reclined Jade (Yanyu).

This is from an essay by Pregadio on “Early Daoist meditation and the origins of Inner Alchemy”. A very interesting essay to me, the above is pre-neidan, though not really pre-alchemy as a child is produced from the union of Yin and Yang. This is the thought stream I most relate to, which incidentally seems more akin to the concepts of ida and pingala and the central channel in Yoga and Lalana and Rasana and the central channel in Tibetan Buddhism. 

 

http://fabriziopregadio.com/files/PREGADIO_Early_Daoist_Meditation.pdf

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Bindi

[awaken]

在丹道裡面的陰陽，如果只看到相對，那就誤會大了。

與其說是相對，不如說是流程。

就像夏天和冬天，表面上看是相對，事實上是流程。

 

In the alchemy of yin and yang, if you only see the opposite, it will be a big misunderstanding.

It's more of a process than a relative.

Just like summer and winter, on the surface they are relative, but in fact they are processes.

 

舉例來說，烏肝是日魂，兔髓是月魄，表面上是相對的，但是實際上練習的時候，這兩者是一先一後，依次出現的。

For example, the black liver is the Hun of the sun, and the marrow of the rabbit is the Po of the moon. On the surface, they are relative, but in practice, the two appear one after the other.

 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by awaken