Teaching authentic neigong

[小梦想]

56 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Yes, one of my teachers calls this "graduating a student early". Sometimes they will also tell them that they are so advanced that they can do anything on their own, but must promise to never tell anyone that they learned from that teacher, because they are "vastly superior to the teacher now". 

What happens too is when people come and talk about their abilities and accomplishments then get refused as students because they are already so advanced that they would be wasting their time learning from the teacher in question.

 

Most teachers that I know don't understand and actively frown upon having many different teachers and having done many different practices. It took me a long time to explain to my own teacher how difficult it is to find a teacher, how you can often times waste years with someone before realizing they don't have any skill to teach or never actually intend on teaching you past a basic level.

Edited August 27, 2021 by 小梦想

[Earl Grey]

29 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

What happens too is when people come and talk about their abilities and accomplishments then get refused as students because they are already so advanced that they would be wasting their time learning from the teacher in question.

 

If you watch the introduction to Pai Mei with Beatrix in Kill Bill, you can see that he's being jocular with her, but she's being extremely disrespectful by talking about how much she knows, and pisses him off even more when she tries to kill him when he's just testing her.

 

 

31 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

Most teachers that I know don't understand and actively frown upon having many different teachers and having done many different practices. It took me a long time to explain to my own teacher how difficult it is to find a teacher, how you can often times waste years with someone before realizing they don't have any skill to teach or never actually intend on teaching you past a basic level.

 

I've been lucky in that Terry Dunn, John Dolic, and JR Rodriguez encourage me to explore or recommend me to close friends of theirs for martial skills. More push hands with different people, or the particular pedagogy of a teacher to help show how they have immense knowledge too. 

 

In general, JR tells me to stick within our framework and as long as nothing contradicts it, it is fine. I have been lucky that what I've learned from these three is very complementary. 

 

Though I'd say I've "only" learned martial training and fajin but no faqi. 

 

Looking forward to your seminar. 

[小梦想]

Wow, luckily all the Masters I know are doctors so I've never met anyone even remotely similar to the video.

I more meant a teacher will ask someone who came to learn who they learned from before and what skills they acquired. If the list is long they assume you aren't a serious student and jump from master to master so don't want to waste their time and energy on someone who has a track record of changing teachers often. 

[Earl Grey]

3 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

Wow, luckily all the Masters I know are doctors so I've never met anyone even remotely similar to the video.

I more meant a teacher will ask someone who came to learn who they learned from before and what skills they acquired. If the list is long they assume you aren't a serious student and jump from master to master so don't want to waste their time and energy on someone who has a track record of changing teachers often. 

Most martial teachers are nice. Usually, what I’ve seen is they send students who pretend to know nothing to another teacher, to establish if the other teacher is any good and if he is a decent human being. Afterwards, if they conclude the teacher is any good and worthwhile, the students finish their visit revealing their school and teacher and arrange a visit between the two. Then it’s usually a nice lunch and some alcohol, laughs, and some playtime between the two teachers who treat each other as the superior whom they hope to learn from, and then see if they have skills they’re hiding.

 

If the teacher is not worth their time, then the students tell their own teacher and then everyone ignores the one they are checking out altogether. 
 

Best way to judge a teacher: their students. If the students are any good, in character or skill, you know what to potentially expect... and more.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Earl Grey

[forestofclarity]

 

11 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

Do you have any examples?

 

Sure. One example is working on strengthening muscle (or tendons or connective tissue). From what I've been taught, this can be counterproductive to internal type arts that start with qi. So for instance bodybuilding vs building a taiji or qigong body. 

 

Another I'm more familiar with are the different types of concentrative practices found in Buddhism. For example, in Theravada, there are intense forms of concentration (i.e. "hard" jhanas) usually based on Visudhimagga commentary. In these teachings, one pointedness often refers to focusing one's attention exclusively on a single object. Then there are less intense forms ("soft" jhanas) based on the suttas, which are more open and relaxed. In this case, one pointedness actually means unified with the sensory field. In this case, training one undoes the other. There is a similar dynamic in Tibetan Buddhism between harder "sutra" shamatha and certain Mahamudra types of shamatha. 

 

 

 

[doc benway]

11 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

Most teachers that I know don't understand and actively frown upon having many different teachers and having done many different practices. 

 

For those genuinely interested in spiritual cultivation, I think this is perhaps the primary obstacle to progress.

[senseless virtue]

11 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

I more meant a teacher will ask someone who came to learn who they learned from before and what skills they acquired. If the list is long they assume you aren't a serious student and jump from master to master so don't want to waste their time and energy on someone who has a track record of changing teachers often. 

 

Personal notes:

 

True teachers of internal skill could be impressed by dedicated Tamagochi keeping. Pokémon collectors could be frowned upon.

[Earl Grey]

5 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

Personal notes:

 

True teachers of internal skill could be impressed by dedicated Tamagochi keeping. Pokémon collectors could be frowned upon.

 

Personal note: 

 

My three teachers are the Pokémon professors (Oak, Birch, and Elm), and I'm just the trainer who has collected Pokémon, but only uses a couple of them for my regular team when battling other trainers. 

[小梦想]

10 hours ago, steve said:

For those genuinely interested in spiritual cultivation, I think this is perhaps the primary obstacle to progress.

 

It is but the other side of the coin is just as bad.

If you dedicate yourself entirely to just one system and you were unlucky enough to find a teacher who only spent 5 weeks at wudang who is now teaching you neigong, you won't really get the results you are meant to get from doing neigong properly. But, you won't know what you were meant to get and will assume the "benefits" you get from your practice is all you can get.

I find this to be a big obstacle when trying to introduce the information that I have because it's completely different to most people believe. There are just too many 5 week neigong teachers who didn't even learn any neigong who say things completely different to me. The tendency for people to want a way to progress, to have new practices to do every few months and the way general marketing has influenced the way these systems are taught, makes it very difficult too. 

 

Nobody wants to be told, go do these two practices for the next 3 years and then I will teach you some more, if you made enough progress that is. Some might even need 5 years, and in 5 years you don't learn brand new things, you still do the same 2 practices from before, we are just adding another. After about 10 years, IF you practiced well and your dantian and qi is sufficiently developed, then you will start with other practices, but you still do the ones I taught before, they don't go away. You need to replenish the qi you will be using for the mid level practices. It takes time and dedication and not being in isolation and temples make it even harder because we have to deal with constant struggles and stresses.

It often confuses me how there are plenty of documentaries showing monks spending decades in isolation, building proper foundations to reach "enlightenment" after 50-80 years of practice yet people think these systems are quick to do, jumping up in levels every few months.

 

PS. It is not my intent to insult anyone or any system explaining the above, it was not aimed, directed or meant to make fun of or insult anyone. People are free to practice anything they want, learn from anyone they want and teach any way they want.

[Earl Grey]

14 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

 

It is but the other side of the coin is just as bad.

If you dedicate yourself entirely to just one system and you were unlucky enough to find a teacher who only spent 5 weeks at wudang who is now teaching you neigong, you won't really get the results you are meant to get from doing neigong properly. But, you won't know what you were meant to get and will assume the "benefits" you get from your practice is all you can get.

I find this to be a big obstacle when trying to introduce the information that I have because it's completely different to most people believe. There are just too many 5 week neigong teachers who didn't even learn any neigong who say things completely different to me. The tendency for people to want a way to progress, to have new practices to do every few months and the way general marketing has influenced the way these systems are taught, makes it very difficult too. 

 

Nobody wants to be told, go do these two practices for the next 3 years and then I will teach you some more, if you made enough progress that is. Some might even need 5 years, and in 5 years you don't learn brand new things, you still do the same 2 practices from before, we are just adding another. After about 10 years, IF you practiced well and your dantian and qi is sufficiently developed, then you will start with other practices, but you still do the ones I taught before, they don't go away. You need to replenish the qi you will be using for the mid level practices. It takes time and dedication and not being in isolation and temples make it even harder because we have to deal with constant struggles and stresses.

It often confuses me how there are plenty of documentaries showing monks spending decades in isolation, building proper foundations to reach "enlightenment" after 50-80 years of practice yet people think these systems are quick to do, jumping up in levels every few months.

 

PS. It is not my intent to insult anyone or any system explaining the above, it was not aimed, directed or meant to make fun of or insult anyone. People are free to practice anything they want, learn from anyone they want and teach any way they want.

 

100%. If I hadn't explored, I wouldn't have discovered that a couple individuals I studied with were not who they seemed to be. Had I explored more and been less "religiously devoted" then I might have been stuck under someone's thumb.

[Master Logray]

8 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

 

It is but the other side of the coin is just as bad.

If you dedicate yourself entirely to just one system and you were unlucky enough to find a teacher who only spent 5 weeks at wudang who is now teaching you neigong, you won't really get the results you are meant to get from doing neigong properly. But, you won't know what you were meant to get and will assume the "benefits" you get from your practice is all you can get.

I find this to be a big obstacle when trying to introduce the information that I have because it's completely different to most people believe. There are just too many 5 week neigong teachers who didn't even learn any neigong who say things completely different to me. The tendency for people to want a way to progress, to have new practices to do every few months and the way general marketing has influenced the way these systems are taught, makes it very difficult too. 

 

 

I think 5 weeks Wudang teachers are not common.  But there are far more who don't receive the genuine teachings themselves, or they are successful in something and expect it to be applicable to the whole world, or just know about their own lineage and nothing outside of it.....    These teachers may be good for total beginners, but you get stuck after a few years.  

 

Many of the people here may not realize, it is not easy to leave a teacher.  It creates ill-feelings with him and all other disciples.   If you have a problem with your practice in the future, don't expect any help.   Other teachers would not be willing to take such a student, someone not faithful to one teacher would not be faithful to another.   If the departure is not pleasant, the student's name will be tarnished in the whole community, forever.   A western money based online approach is far better, a person can come and go at any time, but I wonder there would not be something deeper.

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

 

I think 5 weeks Wudang teachers are not common.  But there are far more who don't receive the genuine teachings themselves, or they are successful in something and expect it to be applicable to the whole world, or just know about their own lineage and nothing outside of it.....    These teachers may be good for total beginners, but you get stuck after a few years.  

 

Many of the people here may not realize, it is not easy to leave a teacher.  It creates ill-feelings with him and all other disciples.   If you have a problem with your practice in the future, don't expect any help.   Other teachers would not be willing to take such a student, someone not faithful to one teacher would not be faithful to another.   If the departure is not pleasant, the student's name will be tarnished in the whole community, forever.   A western money based online approach is far better, a person can come and go at any time, but I wonder there would not be something deeper.

You sound very certain of your assertions that this practice of 5-week teachers or similar are not happening regardless of the common experience some of us are very familiar with here.

 

This is the same as someone who leaves Korea as a purple belt and lands in the United States as a fifth dan black belt in Tae Kwon Do from some legendary lineage, or karate or any martial art. 
 

So yes: it’s common, just like people learn from a DVD who suddenly start charging a lot for workshops.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Earl Grey

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

You sound very certain of your assertions that this practice of 5-week teachers or similar are not happening regardless of the common experience some of us are very familiar with here.

 

This is the same as someone who leaves Korea as a purple belt and lands in the United States as a fifth dan black belt in Tae Kwon Do from some legendary lineage, or karate or any martial art. 
 

So yes: it’s common, just like people learn from a DVD who suddenly start charging a lot for workshops.

 

Earl Grey, we are in Asia !

[Earl Grey]

29 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

Earl Grey, we are in Asia !

 

So? It happens in Asia too, dude. People I have encountered include some who live in Korea and go to HK and come back as "masters" of an art there, or fly from Malaysia and the Philippines to do a yoga seminar in Thailand or Bali and come back as whatever great yogi master. 

 

Even within China people will rip off Chinese in other cities and provinces. 

[Master Logray]

35 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

So? It happens in Asia too, dude. People I have encountered include some who live in Korea and go to HK and come back as "masters" of an art there, or fly from Malaysia and the Philippines to do a yoga seminar in Thailand or Bali and come back as whatever great yogi master. 

 

Even within China people will rip off Chinese in other cities and provinces. 

 

I only know people go to US to attend a one week course and then becomes a certified Yoga instructor.   But I do wonder they could already have ample skills so that week and test may be a formality - looking from the positive side.

 

[Earl Grey]

4 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

I only know people go to US to attend a one week course and then becomes a certified Yoga instructor.   But I do wonder they could already have ample skills so that week and test may be a formality - looking from the positive side.

 

 

While there are people who already have ample skills doing this as a formality, there are still many more scammers, unfortunately. They are driven by algorithms and the need for income, so you can't rule out that they don't exist or treat them as a rare phenomenon. 

[forestofclarity]

13 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

It is but the other side of the coin is just as bad.

 

There's a vast spectrum between the 5 weeks person and a living Immortal though. There are lot of teachers with varying levels of skill and ability. Some people I have met are great martial artists, some are great with qi. In theory, some would be great with wisdom, but that is beyond my experience in Daoism (not saying no one had wisdom practices, but if they did, I didn't learn any). I have not really come across teachers who teach absolute nonsense. 

 

This is not to say that what is being taught isn't useful-- some people want to be good martial artists or have an increase in health. What is challenging in my opinion is finding an efficient, results producing practice for one's goals. And who is to say that sticking with a less skilled teacher for some period isn't just what some one needs before they meet the master/lineage they have a deep connection with. 

 

As it takes a while to build some discernment, I would imagine some amount of hunting and switching. But to me, this hunting is a sort of preliminary practice in and of itself. 

 

 

 

 

[idquest]

One more question though: are there any benchmarks / signs of the progress? It is not easy to practice something for many years without any sign posts along the way. I'm also confused with your remark that there is no way to determine whether one has qi or not because sensation-wise the states a cultivator is with or without qi are identical - or so I understood your remark. I hope you could clarify.

[小梦想]

14 hours ago, Master Logray said:

I think 5 weeks Wudang teachers are not common.  But there are far more who don't receive the genuine teachings themselves, or they are successful in something and expect it to be applicable to the whole world, or just know about their own lineage and nothing outside of it.....    These teachers may be good for total beginners, but you get stuck after a few years.  

 

I wasn't even implying that it's common, just that it exists. I don't doubt there are plenty of worth while teachers scattered all over the world.

 

8 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

This is not to say that what is being taught isn't useful-- some people want to be good martial artists or have an increase in health. What is challenging in my opinion is finding an efficient, results producing practice for one's goals. And who is to say that sticking with a less skilled teacher for some period isn't just what some one needs before they meet the master/lineage they have a deep connection with

 

I totally agree. Developing the habit of daily practice is very useful and more than this, many people who do start some form of meditation do end up changing habits to be more healthy. 

 

6 hours ago, idquest said:

One more question though: are there any benchmarks / signs of the progress? It is not easy to practice something for many years without any sign posts along the way. I'm also confused with your remark that there is no way to determine whether one has qi or not because sensation-wise the states a cultivator is with or without qi are identical - or so I understood your remark. I hope you could clarify.

 

There are some benchmarks yes, but they aren't consistent for everyone. I have experienced many of the benchmarks that float around on the internet, yet a good friend/brother of mine didn't experience any of them despite having a more cultivated dantian than me. How we learn to tell our current dantian state is by being checked by our teacher, he will say you dantian is looking great, full of qi and you get to know the feeling. Qi cultivation relies heavily on your health being good too, so if you feel great, you most likely have a lot of qi and will have no problem making progress quickly (If you practice daily).

 

My remark was not so much about determining if you have qi or not, but more determining if the dantian was able to store it. We all produce qi, what I meant was that we don't all have the ability to store it. We just don't count the qi that isn't stored, which is why someone who doesn't have a dantian storing qi is considered to not have qi. It's just how we distinguish, not to be taken literally.

 

Those who don't have the methods to store it will feel qi, produce qi but you can run into problems due to qi rising. Not being able to store excess qi is one of the main reasons people run into problems when practicing qigong/neigong, There is a lack of emphasis put on stillness and grounding. This still won't allow you to store qi, but at least keeps it out of your head.

A good habit to build is doing stillness meditation on the lower dantian for at least the same duration as your active practice. There are plenty of variations on how to do stillness meditation, some worse some better, but at the very least your focus/attention should be on the lower dantian. To guard the dantian as they say. I'll be teaching a method of stillness meditation which I favor due to it's health benefits.

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by 小梦想

[小梦想]

I just wanted to clarify something which I keep getting asked privately. 

If you only wish to develop qi, without any desire to later emit it. What you will learn during this seminar is sufficient to develop your dantian and qi to very high levels over time. It's not going to take 3 months, but after a good few years of daily training, you can develop a pretty substantial amount of qi which will naturally start to fill the channels.

There is no need to learn more, I am not holding out during this first lecture. It's everything you need to be able to go and practice and make considerable progress if your health allows it. The next levels are just add on practices that make it more efficient, help to condense the qi, enlarge certain channels and connections, but you don't need them if your only goal is to develop higher levels of qi.

Edited August 31, 2021 by 小梦想

[Andy_W]

You mention health being a barrier to progress. I have the idea that when channels are opened and qi stored then that in itself creates health so a linear progress may be possible, is it common to have health limitations? 

 

I guess I'm comparing to tibetan tummo practitioners who are generally known for robust health.

 

 

[小梦想]

1 hour ago, Andy_W said:

You mention health being a barrier to progress. I have the idea that when channels are opened and qi stored then that in itself creates health so a linear progress may be possible, is it common to have health limitations? 

 

I guess I'm comparing to tibetan tummo practitioners who are generally known for robust health.

It's not quite the picture painted in many books unfortunately.

Having issues with health will result in less qi being produced and the dantian being able to hold less qi. Having some qi will not create health, qi is energy to be used by the body. If you are constantly stressed or putting stress on the body then it isn't focused on healing and repair, it's focused on defense. Be stressed, eat bad food, not get enough sleep, drink a lot, porn every day, etc. long enough and you will barely produce any qi, barely be able to hold any qi. 

It doesn't matter if you are a master or not, have a dantian full of qi or not, if your lifestyle isn't conducive to a healthy body and mind, you develop problems just like everyone else and as your body develops more problems, you ability to cultivate qi goes down too.

Monks in the mountains tend to have a healthy stress-free lifestyle, which means their qi enhances their health. It's not quite as black and white as many like to say it is.

They also start practice and leading a very healthy lifestyle from a young age, we can't say the same for the average westerner, myself included when I first wanted to learn.

Edited August 31, 2021 by 小梦想
Always fixing grammar.

[Andy_W]

Thanks that makes sense to me regarding the importance of a harmonious mind and supportive lifestyle on the health of the body...that in place I'd imagine cultivated qi could increase  health and robustness...

Edited August 31, 2021 by Andy_W

[freeform]

3 hours ago, Andy_W said:

You mention health being a barrier to progress. I have the idea that when channels are opened and qi stored then that in itself creates health so a linear progress may be possible, is it common to have health limitations? 

The health of your Blood and your Yin are key in generating Qi.

 

Stagnant, depleted blood and depleted yin combined with with Qi building will deplete you even more. It can be quite problematic if you continue to ‘push through’ your depletion.

 

Diet and habits (mental, emotional and practical) are important in keeping healthy blood and full yin.

 

Depending on the method, building a Dantien can be really good for yin… but Qi building can be bad…

 

If health is an issue, I’d suggest finding a good acupuncturist and herbalist that can help.

 

Look up yin depletion and blood depletion, and see if the symptoms line up. If they do, get treatment and adjust your lifestyle to help support it.

[Jaba]

Interesting offer. Very many good reviews so far

 

Did you imply 30minutes in total or only per session and multiple session a day? -- so, how much to practice in this system, daily?

 

Practices are cumulative type?- like some people practice 'concentration exercises'. But they have to practice it daily otherwise they start to loose and in 2-3 months all their 'concentration' has left entirely. 

 

Problems with any type of exercise? Like gym free weights and preworkout daily? Isometrics/Isotonic workout (tensing/flexing the muscles only, basically)? -- ok to do any exercise together with your system?

 

You know Damo Mitchells online academy? Problem with your system and his online academy system?

 

But what is electric qi?

 

Can you fa qi this special electric qi online, will it destroy your camera/laptop if you do?

Edited September 8, 2021 by Jaba