Caduceus - staff of Hermes

[S:C]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Where are you seeing one thing versus or in polarity to another in that diagram

That’s the point or problem the diagram isn’t showing imo. Seeing polarities and going out of it more than two directions (usually four, here ten, did I miss someone?) from center/earth, might just be a personal preference of mine.

 

Another triangle guy, interesting, but I don’t follow you either… is this a classic of your traditions? I read it in other disciplines and drives me nuts, because they always claim authority to this triangle to be ultimate and only truth. Naive realism, imo, nothing more. Just as my viewpoint, of course.

 

Thanks for the reference of the ship navigator, might have to read your ritual a few few more times to get it. 
 

But that’s what I ‘see’: balance in all those aspects and you might get a chance to center… (and let go for good when no resistance?) what Mark references, but I don’t get his way there either. Even if I try.  

Planetarial oppositions - not ,repetition sets’ (like octave or whatever you choose, arbitrary to me, can you explain why?) - how I feel those :

 

Sun - mind/brain vs. Moon - feeling/heart

 

Jupiter - improportionality/expanse vs. Saturn - discipline/contract/retreat

 

Neptune - Water, dreams, music, gentle opiatic swimming, creative blurs and prophecies vs Uranus - Electrical, whirring sharp clear insight, impulse/beat, fast changing, aprupt

 

Venus - female charmer, Eve-Lilith (not the black moon) dynamic, maid, mother, wise old, conflict with witchy, seductress, amazon

vs. Mars - male activist, Adam/Kain-Able dynamic, aggression, going through, ruthless, principled  at best, egoist in conflict with husband, boy, caretaker 

Mercury vs Pluto - both psychopomps, helpers of psychonauts, both tricksters, both thieves, Mercury via talk, discourse, argumentative, communications and Pluto via lies, violence and manipulation (sex and death).

 

, intense relationship dynamics

(that can make up human life on the interface of the wheel of time)

which might play out in one ‘individual’ or between two or several… on the waves 

safe seas… 

 

Edited October 30 by S:C

[S:C]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

The 'what' is   ; Mercury ( the sign )  relates to Djehuti  and I dont see that in the image   ( it was a comment on  what  Mark posted

Oh I didn’t get that sorry. 
and still don’t, what does an old Egyptian general have to do with this thread? 

[S:C]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Its a LOT easier to explain with a diagram  

don’t follow unfortunately, it’s different than the planetarial-tree of life diagram you’re usually referencing, true? 

[S:C]

On 29.10.2024 at 12:52 AM, Mark Foote said:

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:56 AM by Mark Foote

Still, I don’t see Mercury here, just a (conjoined) balance of aforementioned polar energies.  Thanks, that was interesting! 
Gotta love daobums various perspectives and interpretations! 

Edited October 30 by S:C

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, S:C said:

Oh I didn’t get that sorry. 
and still don’t, what does an old Egyptian general have to do with this thread? 

 

Now I'm lost  ... what Old Egyptian general   ???  

 

I am familiar with the Emperor of the  Penguins ... but not this ^ guy .

 

          

 

" All Hail the Emperor !  " 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, S:C said:

That’s the point or problem the diagram isn’t showing imo. Seeing polarities and going out of it more than two directions (usually four, here ten, did I miss someone?) from center/earth, might just be a personal preference of mine.

 

Sorry, I am not following this bit .    What do you see is rong with the diagram , and / or what would you add ?

 

 

4 hours ago, S:C said:

 

Another triangle guy, interesting, but I don’t follow you either… is this a classic of your traditions? I read it in other disciplines and drives me nuts, because they always claim authority to this triangle to be ultimate and only truth. Naive realism, imo, nothing more. Just as my viewpoint, of course.

 

Its many traditions as its a universal principle .   And one based on realism  ( or they wouldn't be universal ) . Its signature is in everything ; they all consist of three components of description  - the ting itself and its polarities or extensions .

 

Dao -  Yin and yang .  Length , short and long . Temperature, hot and cold . or just triplicates of how things are put together ; 3 dimensions , three primary colours ,  etc .  I have a paper on it in my PP if you want to go deeper into it .

 

 

 

4 hours ago, S:C said:

 

Thanks for the reference of the ship navigator, might have to read your ritual a few few more times to get it. 

 

Just see it as a way of  navigating the path for the self ; part of our self  sees the direction another part makes thnigs go in that direction .  Sometimes the 'go' part 'goes ahead' without due consideration . Other times the planner or the mystic , lacks the go, and things dont get anywhere  or have result from  purpose.   Balance is the key .

 

 

4 hours ago, S:C said:

But that’s what I ‘see’: balance in all those aspects and you might get a chance to center… (and let go for good when no resistance?) what Mark references, but I don’t get his way there either. Even if I try.  

Planetarial oppositions - not ,repetition sets’ (like octave or whatever you choose, arbitrary to me, can you explain why?) - how I feel those :

 

Sun - mind/brain vs. Moon - feeling/heart

 

Yes, but not in opposition ; the whole magical  and  alchemical path / aim / result has often been said to be a 'conjoining'  of Sun and Moon .

 

 

4 hours ago, S:C said:

 

Jupiter - improportionality/expanse vs. Saturn - discipline/contract/retreat

 

Yes, one is expansive and generous and 'beneficial' ,  reward  - the other  contractive , restrictive and (some say ) near malefic, punishment   .    Again balance is required ;

 

Unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression but unbalanced mercy allows and abets evil to exist .

 

4 hours ago, S:C said:

 

Neptune - Water, dreams, music, gentle opiatic swimming, creative blurs and prophecies vs Uranus - Electrical, whirring sharp clear insight, impulse/beat, fast changing, aprupt

 

Yup .

 

4 hours ago, S:C said:

 

Venus - female charmer, Eve-Lilith (not the black moon) dynamic, maid, mother, wise old, conflict with witchy, seductress, amazon

vs. Mars - male activist, Adam/Kain-Able dynamic, aggression, going through, ruthless, principled  at best, egoist in conflict with husband, boy, caretaker 

Mercury vs Pluto - both psychopomps, helpers of psychonauts, both tricksters, both thieves, Mercury via talk, discourse, argumentative, communications and Pluto via lies, violence and manipulation (sex and death).

 

Ah ! I see what you mean there , yes it appears so .

 

4 hours ago, S:C said:

 

, intense relationship dynamics

(that can make up human life on the interface of the wheel of time)

which might play out in one ‘individual’ or between two or several… on the waves 

safe seas… 

 

 

Travel safe ; 

 

The Moon :

Lady of night, that turning ever about us art now visible and now invisible in thy season, be thou favourable to hunters, and lovers, and to all men that toil upon the earth, and to all mariners upon the sea.

 

            

 

 

 

 

( Both the sea and the Moon are symbols of our unconscious ) . 

 

 

From the same ritual is a description of the  ideal threefold energies  and the dynamics of 3/4  (in Michael's diagram above and in my article in PP )

 

The Principles

 Mysterious Energy, triform, mysterious Matter, in fourfold and sevenfold division, the interplay of which things weave the dance of the Veil of Life upon the Face of the Spirit,..."

 

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, S:C said:

don’t follow unfortunately, it’s different than the planetarial-tree of life diagram you’re usually referencing, true? 

 

 

Oh well , I  wrote it all out before and  did diagrams as best I could , in some thread a long time ago .   If you are really interested I could go through it with you .

 

Yes it is different ; I believe the classic one is 'out of whack , Mars should not be 'way up there '   Mars - Man .... but maybe that was drawn up BEFORE the 'fall of Man '  .... stick mars down in lower triangle and everything falls into place and attributes neatly .

 

or maybe the old tree is just patriarchal ?

[S:C]

On 30.10.2024 at 6:17 AM, Nungali said:

or maybe the old tree is just patriarchal ?

Still scratching my head. Tried to draw your version but it doesn’t add up or I don’t get it. 
If you happen to enjoy and have the extra time, please feel free to elaborate…

[Mark Foote]

whoops

 

Edited November 6 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

On 8/25/2021 at 8:34 AM, Apech said:

I posted this pic in 'Cool Pictures' but then was struck by a detail:

 

The staff itself :

 

 

 

 

Fascinating to me that the staff associated with the medical profession is not the caduceus, but the Rod of Asclepius.  

Checking Wikipedia, turns out there's a very good reason for that association:
 

The most famous temple of Asclepius was at Epidaurus in north-eastern Peloponnese.[3] Another famous healing temple (or asclepeion) was located on the island of Kos, where Hippocrates, the legendary "father of medicine", may have begun his career. Other asclepieia were situated in Trikala, Gortys (Arcadia), and Pergamum in Asia.
 

In honour of Asclepius, a particular type of non-venomous rat snake was often used in healing rituals, and these snakes – the Aesculapian snakes – crawled around freely on the floor in dormitories where the sick and injured slept. These snakes were introduced at the founding of each new temple of Asclepius throughout the classical world. From about 300 BCE onwards, the cult of Asclepius grew very popular and pilgrims flocked to his healing temples (Asclepieia) to be cured of their ills. Ritual purification would be followed by offerings or sacrifices to the god (according to means), and the supplicant would then spend the night in the holiest part of the sanctuary – the abaton (or adyton). Any dreams or visions would be reported to a priest who would prescribe the appropriate therapy by a process of interpretation.[4] Some healing temples also used sacred dogs to lick the wounds of sick petitioners.

(Wikipedia, "Rod of Asclepius")

 

 

Quote

 

A few things to note:

 

1.  The serpents are knotted.

2.  They have beards.

3.  They are twisted round each other and are staring at each other.

 

So first the knot ... this is actually an Egyptian motif:

 

 

you can see the knot in the middle of this image.
 

 

What I wrote in 2013, when you first introduced me to this image, Apech (lightly edited):
 

The presence of the god (Set, both sides) is an indication that support is realized not through the direction of any conscious activity, but solely through the experience of the location of awareness and the ability to feel in the necessity of breath.
 

The hieroglyphs on the top of the pillar are in praise of the king of Egypt, but they also depict an orb like the sun, which is perhaps the Egyptian “akh” or consciousness freed of any fixture to location.
 

The toes of the god rest against either side of something shaped like the sacrum of the body; close-ups show that not only is the footrest of the god the shape of the sacrum, but it is also segmented in five parts like the sacrum.
 

The nerves which exit between the fourth and fifth lumbar vertebrae and the first vertebrae of the sacrum allow an ability to feel in the lower legs and along the soles of the feet, right to the surface of the skin. Feeling for the placement and orientation of the legs and feet is absorbed into the sense of location in the occurrence of awareness...

(From the Temples in Egypt)

About Set:

In Ancient Greek, the god's name is given as Sēth (Σήθ). Set had a positive role where he accompanies Ra on his barque to repel Apep (Apophis), the serpent of Chaos.

(Wikipedia, "Set (deity)")

 

The knot is where the placement and orientation of the legs and feet can enter into the activity that aligns the sacrum with the vertebrae of the spine.  The role of the stretch of ligaments in controlling the reciprocal muscular activity of that alignment will be realized in part through the alternating stretch of the two sets of ilio-lumbar ligaments, roughly corresponding in the illustration to the reeds that rise on either side to make contact just below the knot, and the reeds that are a part of the knot:

 

 

 

Quote

 

There are also snakes with beards in Egyptian art:

 

 

... anyway this is just to suggest that this is ancient symbolism going ... way back.

 

 

Not sure what your last illustration is intended to represent.  Hmmm.  The smaller figure rests on a leg of the bird and the tail of snake, just as the ball of Set's feet rests on the sacrum. The ankh coming off the knees, echoes the role of the knees in the illustration involving Isis and Nephthys. Two turns in the neck of the bird, and in the tail of the snake--alignment at T12-L1 and atlas-axis?  Wings on the snake as well as the bird, the free location of consciousness? 

Any clues on the significance of the jug, Apech?


 

Edited November 6 by Mark Foote

[Cobie]

 

24 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

… Rod of Asclepius …

In China they have Fuxi and Nuwa 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakes_in_Chinese_mythology  

 

 

Edited November 6 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

23 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

[quoting Apech I think]
 

So first the knot ... this is actually an Egyptian motif:

 

 

you can see the knot in the middle of this image.

Might the English expression ‘tying the knot’ come from here?

 

 

Edited November 6 by Cobie

[Mark Foote]

21 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Might the English expression ‘tying the knot’ come from here?

 

 

Sorry, Cobie, that my post got away from me before I was half finished.  As you can see, I'm going for an entirely different interpretation... (though--ya' know, if might come down to the same thing, coming from the same place).

 

 

Edited November 6 by Mark Foote

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, S:C said:

Still scratching my head. Tried to draw your version but it doesn’t add up or I don’t get it. 
If you happen to enjoy and have the extra time, please feel free to elaborate…

 

I can , but is here the right place ?

 

if you really want to get into it I can start a different  thread on it .

[Mark Foote]

On 8/25/2021 at 8:34 AM, Apech said:

 

There are also snakes with beards in Egyptian art:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think we've all heard the advice about allowing the chi to flow from the tailbone to the crown of the head.  Some Zen teachers, including Shunryu Suzuki, have also advised keeping the chin tucked in--Suzuki said there would be no strength to the practice without it, or some such!

I'm thinking these two pieces of advice might account for the object rising from the crown of the serpent's head, and the beard from its chin.  Ok, far-fetched.

Just noticing that the beard in the illustration above appears to be touching the rim of the vessel being offered by the figure on the right.

 

Research.  The serpent is Nehebkau, associated with the afterlife.  The bird is the Bennu bird, a symbol of rebirth.  The beetle is Khepri, symbol of the rising sun, creation, the renewal of life.  The figure in-between the bird and the snake is evidently Maat, symbol of justice and order.  So birth and death, with justice in-between.

 

The papyrus unfolds in order, so first death, then with justice in-between, rebirth--and a beetle with spells for the new life.

 

Having some trouble finding the source of this image, although a very similar depiction can be found on the extreme right end of the papyrus of Meshareduisekeb, singer of Amun (here).  The description of that papyrus is:

The papyrus belongs to a woman who bears the title of “singer of Amun”, held by high-ranking women, who accompanied rites for the deity in the temple with music and song. The scenes, which cover most of the papyrus surface, start with the representation of the deceased in front of the snake deity Nehebkaw, guardian of the entrance to the Underworld, and a member of the court of Osiris. A series of scenes follows, which evoke in abbreviated form various important spells of the Book of the Dead: the heart scarab bearing its particular magic formula (spell 30), or the four rudders of the sky (spell 148). At the end of the papyrus is a peculiar representation. A cow emerges from a mountain, that is Hator as Mistress of the Necropolis and patron goddess of the afterlife. She is followed by a deity emerging from the same mountain – which in thus a representation of the West – carrying the rising sun in her arms. The sun emanates beneficial rays on the ba of the deceased woman.

 

So we are seeing the beginning scene of the papyrus.  Apech, where did you get the illustration you posted from?  I could not find a museum source, using Google lens.

At any rate, I am  fascinated by the vessel that is being touched by the beard of the snake god.  Wonder what is being offered.

 

 

Edited November 7 by Mark Foote

[Apech]

@Mark Foote 

 

Hi,

 

Yes those are interesting pics.  They are from so-called 'Mythological Papyri' which were produced in 21st Dynasty Thebes as short/condensed versions of the Book of the Dead with very little text being mostly in picture form.  They are very helpful for getting at the underlying patterns of meaning in Egyptian beliefs.

 

The shape with the writing on it on the left and the object being offered to the snake are the heart symbol 'ab'.  The heart was the seat of consciousness which was weighed against truth in the famous judgement scene.  The text on the heart symbol on the left is Chapter 30b from the Book of the Dead - which begins 'My heart, my mother, my heart, my mother, ka in my body ...'  - so the heart was a part of your being which allowed you life and 'ka' which is something like an energy body had a close relation to the heart.  They were not so much talking about the physical heart but more perhaps like the heart-centre or chakra (?) which was the location for the creation of a being (hence your mother).  Chapter 30b was usually carved on a stone scarab beetle symbol - the link being the scarab beetle god Khepera 'stood' on his own heart in order to create the cosmos.  So there is a strong link between th eheart and Khepera (whose name is derived from the verb khpr = to be, to become.)

 

The serpent's name Neheb-kau means 'uniter of kas' or 'joiner of kas'.  This god had a strong relation to the inundation of the Nile - so bringing fertility - and also with the seven neck vertebrae.   There is a sense here of that which connects the expressions of energy together - like a field or continuum - hence the many coiled serpent imagery sometimes used.  The beard is interesting perhaps because if you imagine having a plaited beard like this - if you arched your neck it would touch you sternum - in front of the heart centre. 

 

The Bennu bird is the Egyptian phoenix and is about life emerging from the pre-creational void.  The ma'at figure represent 'order' in the universe.

 

This picture would be part of a longer sequence which would place it in the context of a series of events or transformations undergone in the afterlife (or in this life when doing certain practices).

 

[Mark Foote]

On 11/8/2024 at 7:22 AM, Apech said:

 

Yes those are interesting pics.  They are from so-called 'Mythological Papyri' which were produced in 21st Dynasty Thebes as short/condensed versions of the Book of the Dead with very little text being mostly in picture form.  They are very helpful for getting at the underlying patterns of meaning in Egyptian beliefs.

 

The shape with the writing on it on the left and the object being offered to the snake are the heart symbol 'ab'.  The heart was the seat of consciousness which was weighed against truth in the famous judgement scene.  The text on the heart symbol on the left is Chapter 30b from the Book of the Dead - which begins 'My heart, my mother, my heart, my mother, ka in my body ...'  - so the heart was a part of your being which allowed you life and 'ka' which is something like an energy body had a close relation to the heart.  They were not so much talking about the physical heart but more perhaps like the heart-centre or chakra (?) which was the location for the creation of a being (hence your mother).  Chapter 30b was usually carved on a stone scarab beetle symbol - the link being the scarab beetle god Khepera 'stood' on his own heart in order to create the cosmos.  So there is a strong link between th eheart and Khepera (whose name is derived from the verb khpr = to be, to become.)

 

The serpent's name Neheb-kau means 'uniter of kas' or 'joiner of kas'.  This god had a strong relation to the inundation of the Nile - so bringing fertility - and also with the seven neck vertebrae.   There is a sense here of that which connects the expressions of energy together - like a field or continuum - hence the many coiled serpent imagery sometimes used.  The beard is interesting perhaps because if you imagine having a plaited beard like this - if you arched your neck it would touch you sternum - in front of the heart centre. 

 

The Bennu bird is the Egyptian phoenix and is about life emerging from the pre-creational void.  The ma'at figure represent 'order' in the universe.

 

This picture would be part of a longer sequence which would place it in the context of a series of events or transformations undergone in the afterlife (or in this life when doing certain practices).

 

 

 

Something I'm writing now about "one-pointedness of mind"--Bhikkyu Thanissaro is the American abbot of a Theravadin monastery in the San Diego area, if I understand correctly:
 

“One-pointedness of mind” has been taken by different people in the Buddhist community to mean different things. The modern Theravadin teacher Thanissaro Bhikkyu, for example, has disputed that the term could actually refer to the mind as a singular point, and instead posits that the reference is to a singular object of attention:

 

A Pali sutta, MN 44, defines concentration as cittass’ek’aggatā, which is often translated as “one-pointedness of mind”: cittassa = “of the mind” or “of the heart,” eka = one, agga = point, -tā = -ness. MN 117 defines noble right concentration as any one-pointedness of mind supported by the first seven factors of the noble path, from right view through right mindfulness. MN 43 states further that one-pointedness is a factor of the first jhāna, the beginning level of right concentration.

 

From these passages, it has been argued that if one’s awareness in concentration or jhāna is truly one-pointed, it should be no larger than a point, which means that it would be incapable of thinking, of hearing sounds, or even of being aware of the physical body. However, this interpretation imposes too narrow a meaning on the word ek’aggatā, one that is foreign to the linguistic usage of the Pali Canon.

 

… (Thanissaro concludes:  ) Show your lack of contempt for your meditation object by giving it your full attention and mastering concentration… Gather the mind around its one object.

 

(https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/CrossIndexed/Uncollected/MiscEssays/OnePointed160822.pdf; parenthetical added)
 

 

In my experience, “one-pointedness” has more to do with the singularity of the sense of self than with single-minded attention to a meditation object.

 

A teacher in modern India, Nisargadatta, described the self as “the consciousness in the body”:
 

You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness.

(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality])

 

 

For most people, the consciousness associated with “I am” is at a single location in the body at any given moment.

Nisargadatta went on to say:

Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.

(ibid)

Gautama spoke of making the surrender of conscious activity the object of thought, in order to hold on to the singularity of consciousness:

 

… making self-surrender the object of thought, (a person) lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. 

(Gautama the Buddha; SN 48.10, Pali Text Society vol. V p 174)
 

 

Thanissaro wrote 'cittassa = “of the mind” or “of the heart”'. I would guess that's the same as 'my heart, my mother, my heart, my mother, ka in my body ...'.

Extrapolating further, "ab" or "one-pointedness of mind",  the heart-mind, is being offered to the serpent, to a symbol I would say of the energy of the ligaments in the sacrum and spine.

I would say that the energy of the ligaments and of one-pointed consciousness, both symbolized by the ankh, is being offered to Nefertari's movement of breath, in the illustration of Nefertari and Isis:

 

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 11:12 PM by Mark Foote