The TM rabbit hole

[Vajra Fist]

19 minutes ago, freeform said:

The sound produced is not just the auditory tone but the internal vibration necessary for making this tone. Eventually you lose the auditory tone and continue with the vibration silently. Eventually the sound (and light) starts to be generated internally

 

Thanks for this, fascinating stuff! Is it possible do you think to eventually tune into the vibration of this sound by listening to it chanted by others?

 

Similarly, is it possible to arrive at this internal vibration by thinking of the sound?

 

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

9 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Thanks for this, fascinating stuff! Is it possible do you think to eventually tune into the vibration of this sound by listening to it chanted by others?

 

Similarly, is it possible to arrive at this internal vibration by thinking of the sound?

 

 

 

 

According to Thomas Ashley-Farrand, yes.

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Is it possible do you think to eventually tune into the vibration of this sound by listening to it chanted by others?

Yeah, I think so - particularly if you’re there in person. Though it’s very rare to find anyone able to chant these types of mantra correctly (with internal vibration) - including monks.

 

5 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Similarly, is it possible to arrive at this internal vibration by thinking of the sound?

I believe it only works in one direction - meaning: correct sound, correct sound + inner vibration, no sound + inner vibration, internal sound + inner light.

 

Eventually, after just settling into your practice, the inner sound will start of its own accord. But you need to go through the ability to generate the sound and inner vibration first before the later stuff is possible. At least in my experience.
 

I suppose some teachers might be able to transmit and help you generate the inner vibration without having to start with the gross sound work first.

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Through the vibrational quality of the sound. The key here is to understand the correct tones and pronunciations. AUM is an example of this type of mantra. The sound produced is not just the auditory tone but the internal vibration necessary for making this tone. Eventually you lose the auditory tone and continue with the vibration silently. Eventually the sound (and light) starts to be generated internally.

 

This is the same as what I know to be true and my practical experience of it also.....Things get really interesting  and the sensations are unmistakable

 

Its a shame a lot of people don't realize just how potent AUM can be when done properly....however, much like kundalini...it has been diluted, distorted and reduced to all sorts of wacky things  

Edited August 30, 2021 by Shadow_self

[old3bob]

From Freeform:

"Yeah, I think so - particularly if you’re there in person. Though it’s very rare to find anyone able to chant these types of mantra correctly (with internal vibration) - including monks."

 

yes...and there are songs of deep power which are normally and only possible for the devas and gods to sing, (as being of part their inherent vibration, order of being and responsibility) although human beings may be granted the grace to hear/witness them to an "x" degree, which in no way means we humans should try to  co-opt such which could have dire consequences. 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Though it’s very rare to find anyone able to chant these types of mantra correctly (with internal vibration) - including monks.

Actually there are plenty of Hindu priests, monks and initiates who have been trained in the Vedic system that know exactly how to do it. The system hasn’t changed in 1000s of years. 
 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Its a shame a lot of people don't realize just how potent AUM can be when done properly....however, much like kundalini...it has been diluted, distorted and reduced to all sorts of wacky things

Yeah. It’s the same with mantras that have an empowerment - the difference between the pleasant trance you get from repeating a sound and repeating one with empowerment is night and day.

 

Unfortunately it’s rare to come across a master of mantra - and empowerments are generally reserved for those that show dedication and respect.

 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

I believe it only works in one direction - meaning: correct sound, correct sound + inner vibration, no sound + inner vibration, internal sound + inner light

It works in both directions. Only, we are tracing the breadcrumbs back to the source, so we’re following the reverse path — nivritti. Sound arises from silence — so we’re just reversing the step.

 

In mantra practice, the weakest/lowest level is vocal chanting. Next is mental chanting, and then it is activating the deity/energetic aspect behind the mantra directly. Highest is silence. 

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Actually there are plenty of Hindu priests, monks and initiates who have been trained in the Vedic system that know exactly how to do it. The system hasn’t changed in 1000s of years. 
 

I have no doubt there are… but there’s 10,000x more chanting empty mantras in yoga retreats every day.

[Earl Grey]

45 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah. It’s the same with mantras that have an empowerment - the difference between the pleasant trance you get from repeating a sound and repeating one with empowerment is night and day.

 

Unfortunately it’s rare to come across a master of mantra - and empowerments are generally reserved for those that show dedication and respect.

 

 

In the west, the lineage I follow (but am not initiated into) had Sadguru Sant Keshvadas, who trained both Thomas and Margalo Ashley-Farrand. Their books and their ongoing work are wonderful boons to everyone. 

 

Satyabhama herself is very particular about pronunciation, and says saying "Om Namah Shee-vai-yuh" produces a different effect than "Om Namah Shiva'ya" for example (and believe it or not, SSK told her it's the latter) but she says regional differences in pronunciation are considered.

 

My teachers at Dzokden tell me pronunciation isn't important because Southern and Northern Tibetans contract their words differently and so it seems like a different mantra sometimes when doing Medicine Buddha. 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

I have no doubt there are… but there’s 10,000x more chanting empty mantras in yoga retreats every day.

If they are real monks or yogis, then I doubt if their chants are empty  

 

But I don’t consider your yoga booty latte slurping lululemon wearing yoga studio types to even be fake yogis. 

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 

But I don’t consider your yoga booty latte slurping lululemon wearing yoga studio types to even be fake yogis. 

Unfortunately, I found no way to comment that without being - ist of some sort and offending someone. 

[Master Logray]

19 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Interestingly, Maharaishi was against laymen chanting Om, saying it is used by monastics to destroy hs source of material attachments. Here's a quote from him. 

 

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, given in 1955, published in 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas', pp 66-67: “Obviously enough there are two ways of life, the way of the Sanyasi and the way of life of a householder. One is quite opposed to the other. A Sanyasi renounces everything of the world, whereas a householder needs and accumulates everything. Shastras declare both ways of life to be the paths of emancipation. Both are said to be the "Moksha Marga" 1 Nivarthi Marga 2 and 'Pravrithi Marga' 3 . The one realises, through renunciation and detachment, while the other goes through all attachments and accumulation of all that is needed for physical life. We have two different sets of Mantras to suit the two ways of life. Mantras for the Sanyasis have the effect of increasing the sense of detachment and renunciation and also have the power of destroying the objects of worldly affections, if there should survive any such objects for him. Quite contrary to this are the Mantras suitable for the householder which have the efficacy of harmonising and enriching the material aspect of life also. 1 Moksha = liberation, Marga = path, Moksha Marga = path of liberation. 2 Nivritti = negation, Nivritti Marga = path of turning away from activity. 3 Pravriitti = action, effort, Pravriitti Marga = path of active involvement in the world. The Mantras of the Sanyasi have a destructive effect in the material field of life, whereas the Mantras suited to the householder envisage constructive values also. "Om" is the Mantra for the Sanyasi. The Sanyasi repeats "Om" "Om" "Om". It is given to him at the time of 'Sanyas - Diksha', at the time when he has completely renounced attachment to the world. Renunciation and detachment increase with the repetition of 'Om'. 'Om' is chanted aloud by a Sanyasi to put on end to his desires. Desires are destroyed by loudly chanting the mantra 'Om'. And if there is any desire deeply rooted in the mind of a Sanyasi, the chanting of 'Om' will result in the destruction of the object of such desire in order to make the Sanyasi, wholly desireless. The Sanyasi thus attains Peace through the renunciation and destruction of desires, whereas the peace comes to the householder when his needs are satisfied, when his desires are fulfilled. The mantras for the householders have the effect of fulfilling the desires. If unfortunately, the householder begins to repeat the pranava Mantra viz. 'Om', 'Om' 'Om' he experiences destructive effects in his material life. The effect starts with monetary loss and then goes on to destroy objects of affection, one by one. Such a man, when he finds loss of money and separation from the dear ones, he is reduced to utter peacelessness and frustration. Where is the chance of spiritual development or experience of Peace and happiness for such a dejected soul? The path of peacelessness and misery in the world, cannot lead to Eternal happiness. If the man is proceeding towards Eternal happiness every day he should feel the increase of peace and happiness, and this alone will assure him that he is proceeding towards abiding peace and eternal happiness. If you walk towards the light you should be able to feel the increase of light at every step. If you are spending some time in devotion to God, you should feel peace and happiness in life. If you are not feeling peace and happiness you should be wise enough to doubt the correctness of your devotion, you should be wise enough to think that your method of devotion is wrong, that the Mantras that you are repeating do not suit you. The mantras that suit the Sanyasis can never suit the householders. Hundreds of God-loving and God-fearing families, have been ruined due to the destructive effects of Sanyasa Mantra viz. "Om". "Om" destroys desires and also destroys the objects of desires and therefore it produces calmness of mind and renunciation and detachment from material life only to Sanyasis when they repeat Om; to them it brings the experience of peace of mind and from this experience they generally recommend the chanting of 'Om' to their followers. But when a householder repeats 'Om', he experiences that as long as he is repeating 'Om' he feels peace of mind, but when he comes out to indulge in business or household work, he finds he finds that the air is against his desire and schemes. The silencing effect on the mind and destructive effects in material life, both are lived side by side. Some people say that we should ignore material life in regard to the devotional practices and Mantras. But this is a fool's ideology. Can you possibly ignore the considerations of material life, when the Mantras do affect it? Select a path which will make you happier in your material life also. Do not live in a fool's paradise. Do not think that your sufferings and miseries of today will work as reservations in the galleries of heaven for tomorrow. Be peaceful and happy in the present and try to make this state permanent. This is the path of Deliverance in Life Jeevan-Mukti, the most exalted state in human existence, the state of abiding Peace and Eternal Bliss. And this you are entitled to have through correct and suitable Sadhana. And because the Mantras play an important role in the field of Sadhana, you must be very very careful in the selection of the Mantra. The theory of Mantras is the theory of sound. It is most scientific and natural. Ladies should never repeat any Mantra beginning with Om. The pronunciation of Om is like fire to the ladies. This is the practical experience of many devoted ladies who repeated 'Om Namah Shivaya' or 'Om Namonarayanaya' or 'Om Namo Bhagawate Vasudevaya' or any such mantra beginning with Om. It cannot be God's wish that you should suffer in your devotion to him. Do not cling to the unhelpful Mantras. The moment you find you have got into the wrong train, it is wise to get down from it as soon as possible. It is foolish to stick on to the wrong train and go wherever it takes you.”

 

 

https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-side-effects-positive-or-negative-if-one-plays-the-Om-chanting-on-repeat-24-7

 

This is very helpful.  A bit of understanding can be quite dangerous.

 

[forestofclarity]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

As far as I understand it, there are three ways mantra work. And one ‘false’ way that still has some genuine benefits.

 

Another important aspect is the condition of the student. For example, one's confidence or devotion in the teacher/lineage can make up for other aspects. 

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

It works in both directions. Only, we are tracing the breadcrumbs back to the source, so we’re following the reverse path — nivritti. Sound arises from silence — so we’re just reversing the step.

 

An important aspect-- mantra for wisdom. 

 

A teacher once said that spiritual practice could go in two directions: horizontal for power and vertical for wisdom. Power in this case could mean many things: siddhis, health, feeling good, etc. 

 

He said that for every person practicing for wisdom, there were 100 - 1,000 practicing for power. I think most of us have mixed motives. 

[Bhathen]

On 8/30/2021 at 4:49 AM, Vajra Fist said:

Is it possible do you think to eventually tune into the vibration of this sound by listening to it chanted by others?

 

Yes, just listening to the chants on youtube helps tune in to the the vibration, esp. with my experience with Om Mani Padme Hum and some Hindu ancient chants. Some chants are very powerful that they are best avoided listening to continuously if you are already into some practice.

 

On most of the points mentioned, I disagree with Maharishi. Around two decades back was initiated into TM, around the same time was into Om, Aum and Im (as in him) chanting as well.  Always felt TM had a pleasant experience, maybe an introduction to meditation. If the the physical and energetic bodies are well prepared the benefits maybe enhanced; but I would not recommend it for a lifetime of practice.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Bhathen

[freeform]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

But I don’t consider your yoga booty latte slurping lululemon wearing yoga studio types to even be fake yogis.

Haha - fair enough. Unfortunately they have the mainstream world fooled.

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

If they are real monks or yogis, then I doubt if their chants are empty  

In my experience most monasteries and ashrams are like a microcosm of the real world… The majority just coast and have very little in terms of development or even interest in real spiritual practice.

[C T]

6 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Thanks for this, fascinating stuff! Is it possible do you think to eventually tune into the vibration of this sound by listening to it chanted by others?

 

Similarly, is it possible to arrive at this internal vibration by thinking of the sound?

 

 

 

 

 

Have you come across this chant before? Quite likely, there's some degree of vibration that can be felt from this method of chanting.

 

I've trained gradually to chant in a similar way for quite a while now - a natural progression from having *accumulated* quite a number of mantras as per the practice I do. Quite helpful in more ways than one.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by C T

[Vajra Fist]

21 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Have you come across this chant before? Quite likely, there's some degree of vibration that can be felt from this method of chanting.

 

I've trained gradually to chant in a similar way for quite a while now - a natural progression from having *accumulated* quite a number of mantras as per the practice I do. Quite helpful in more ways than one.

 

 

 

You can chant like this? That's pretty incredible. My main practice has always been Jodo Shinshu and I remember some monks in Japan could manage this deep bass that seemed to vibrate the air around them. 

 

There are a number of Buddhist meditations that use silent mantra as a way of hooking the mind to the breath, up to a certain point of practice, after which it doesn't become that useful any more. The common one from the Theravadan tradition, is "Bud-dho". My teacher heard I was using this a few years back and recommended instead I meditate using "Ami-da". The effect is largely the same as with counting the breath. 

 

Interesting, despite being a meditation on a mantra, the feeling is totally different from that in vedic type meditation in TM. The mind is aware of things as they arise and as they fall away. Whereas from my brief experience with TM, the mind goes in upon itself, and the outside world ceases to exist. 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Vajra Fist

[freeform]

8 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

my brief experience with TM, the mind goes in upon itself, and the outside world ceases to exist.

Trance state

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

Trance state

Or is it a form of samadhi? 

[old3bob]

warnings about negative mantra use:  (Just an excerpt that I have not researched)

quoted from:  https://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/concepts/mantra.asp

 

or perhaps better said as a misuse for negative purposes...

 

"Negative aspects of mantras

On the negative side mantras contribute to ignorance and superstition. Because of their popularity they are used by unscrupulous charlatans and religious frauds to attract gullible people with the promise to cure diseases, remove adversity, enchant opposite sex, exorcise evil energies and attract abundance in exchange for money or personal favors. People end up paying large sums for charms, amulets, rings and bracelets inscribed with secret mantras to fulfill their desires or overcome some problem. Some also indulge in gory rituals and superstitious practices, using mantras, to gain evil powers for destructive purposes. Mantras are meant for the welfare of society and the order and regularity of the world. They have to be used as an offering to God by people who are pure and devoted, as part of their obligatory service to God. Any misuse of mantras with selfish intention produce sinful karma and leads to one’s spiritual downfall."

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by old3bob

[manitou]

10 hours ago, dwai said:

It works in both directions. Only, we are tracing the breadcrumbs back to the source, so we’re following the reverse path — nivritti. Sound arises from silence — so we’re just reversing the step.

 

In mantra practice, the weakest/lowest level is vocal chanting. Next is mental chanting, and then it is activating the deity/energetic aspect behind the mantra directly. Highest is silence. 

 

 

This thought comes to mind; that this is the very intersection of the biblical beginning and the sound arising from silence.  In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god.  I'm guessing that sound produced rotation of matter.  No time without rotation.

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by manitou

[dwai]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

 

This thought comes to mind; that this is the very intersection of the biblical beginning and the sound arising from silence.  In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god.  I'm guessing that sound produced rotation of matter.  No time without rotation.

 

 

 

Indian traditions have a very detailed exposition on the power of sound (Vak). Kashmiri Shaivism presents the concept of matrika chakra (the mother wheel) which shows how the universe manifested from a seed sound. Similar idea also exists in the Vedic tradition as well.

 

http://www.ravikhanna.com/matrika-shakti-as-explained-in-the-shaktopaya-of-the-shiva-sutras/3
 

Spoiler

• Paṇinī, the oldest Indian grammarian who wrote his famous Asthadhyāyi few centuries before Christ, has explained a system of pratyahāra or abbreviation in which the first and the last letter actually include the entire list between them. In this light ‘ah’ ( A: ) can be understood as the pratyahara for the entire alphabet.            From the sound of ‘a’ ( A ) , the first letter to the sound of ‘m’ ( ma ) , the last letter of the mute-consonants the entire organ of speech is traced. The pronunciation travels from the glottis i.e. the guttural, along the palate to the cerebral region, from there to the dental and finally ends at the lips or the labial region. Thus, the entire mouth cavity is structured within this part of the alphabet and from here the symmetry gets reflected into the entire discursive language. Now, the mantra ‘aum’ ( ! ) can be understood as the pratyahāra for all these vowels plus all the mute-consonant sounds and hence the complete definition of the vocal apparatus starting from the glottis to the lips. This is the Universal mantra for the liberation of the senses and during meditation helps in suppressing the complete cacophony of thoughts and hence silencing the mind. This is the bīja-mantra for the Ājna-chakra located at the center of the forehead where the ceremonious tīkā is put during Indian rituals.

• As per Paṇinī ‘s system of pratyāhāra the word kam ( kma\ ) would stand for the entire list of mute consonants i.e from the first guttural ‘ka’ ( k ) to the last labial ‘ma’ ( ma ). Now, we look at the Brihadāraṇyaka Upanishad I.2.1which is the first shlöka of the ‘Hymn of Creation’ [7] as follows:-

….There was nothing whatsoever here in the beginning. It was the absence of time or mrtyuh, death that hid everything. For aśnāyā or that which has not emanated, in other words is un-manifested is equivalent to death. This aśnāyā- mrtyuh or the Unnameable, Brahman had a first thought in His mind, ‘Let me be’. This generated the first movement of thought and from this worship āpo emanated.…..’Verily’, he thought, ‘since my first desire has given rise to kam (within me)’, therefore this is the essence of energy or arka of all creation – he who understands kam thus comprehends the meaning (and control) of arka….I.2.1 Both āpo and kam are hurriedly translated as ‘water’ in English versions of this shlöka. They are actually both ‘first’ emanations. Due to the desire to be, the infinite One expresses duality, right here the bifurcation of the internal mind and the external manifestation happens. āpo thus is the outward pervading matter, the plasma that is synonymous with arka or the very essence of Shakti ; kam is the expansion of thought within, turning into the seeds of the language, like Bhartṛhari’s sphöṭa. It germinates the links of words and sentences, helping to precipitate the very first desire into action.

• Now Chāndogya Upaniśad IV.10.5 establishes the duality of Brahman, the Unknown’s desire to be by saying that…..

            Here Agnī Deva, the Lord of Energy is explaining the secret of Brahman manifesting as different forms of fire or energies in the Universe. He says just as kam( kma\ ) is the Infinite so is kham ( Kma\ ). As I have explained above that īśwara, is the manifest or pratyakśa form of the Unknown that lies within the realm of our senses. Synonymously kam ( kma\ ) too is like Aleph 1, א₁ – the continuous infinity of Cantor’s theory of Infinities[8]. It too is uncountable and from it can emerge another infinite number of roots, words, sentences and so on that can name every possible form of creation. Then in the manifest speech of the sparśa the kham ( Kma\ ) is the reciprocal of the Aleph 1, א₁ . This transformation gives the same diversity to kham ( Kma\ ) as is available in kam ( kma\ ) and also explains the fact that kham ( Kma\ ) means zero or shūnya in all ancient Vedic mathematical references. It is also used synonymously with ākāsha meaning vacuum or space.

 

[C T]

4 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

This thought comes to mind; that this is the very intersection of the biblical beginning and the sound arising from silence.  In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god.  I'm guessing that sound produced rotation of matter.  No time without rotation.

 

 

 

 

Opening her article, Sound and Vibration: Building Blocks of the Universe, Tilly Campbell-Allen wrote, "As the ancient mystics and sages told, and as scientists have long postulated and increasingly agreed on, our physical universe originated from the vibrational energy of sound; In the beginning was the Word."

 

She further noted, "The chants and mantras of spiritual practice go beyond the intention of their words. Firstly, as each incarnated soul in each individuated body has a particular and unique resonance, much like a finely tuned radio station in constant transmitting communication and creating what some suggest is a tone perfect for our own bespoke expression, the specific vibrations of sounds passing through our body have a profound effect. Like correct breath work and its own effect on the brain, so does the specific and correct pronunciations of the mantra’s language, which is often more phonetic than makes intellectual sense. 

 

In ancient Hebrew, focusing on the letters that spelled the word of God was known as kavanah, in the same vein is chanting the Bija Mantras of the Vedic tradition—AUM or OM being the most widely known and considered fundamental in the creation of the universe. These seed mantras (OM, KRIM, SHRIM, HRIM, HUM) and chakra mantras (LAM, VAM, RAM, YAM, HAM, AUM, AH). Seed syllables of the buddhas in Buddhism (from the DHIH of Amitabha to the TAM of Green Tara) or the five indestructible wisdom warrior sounds of Bon (A, OM, HUNG, RAM, DZA), and so on, bring about specific vibrations and resulting effects."

 

_____________ ______________ ____________ _____________ ______________ _____________ ________________ _________

 

One can apply methods similar to this to train the diaphragm and align the sound/breath frequency to facilitate proper chanting:

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by C T

[Earl Grey]

A friend of mine who do a form of spontaneous qigong have chanted weird mantras we've never heard before in languages that aren't familiar to us, though in recent times before I stopped practice, occasionally, Om Mani Padme Hum or Om Ah Hum come out unambiguously. During those times, I'd open my eyes to see all three cats and both dogs gathered around watching me.