The TM rabbit hole

[manitou]

12 hours ago, C T said:

One can apply methods similar to this to train the diaphragm and align the sound/breath frequency to facilitate proper chanting:

 

 

 

I find it quite strange that Chandra acquired burning mouth syndrome and had to stop.  That is truly an odd manifestation for someone with that particular talent.

[escott]

Is anyone familiar with the work of Corine Sombrun? Her work leaves little doubt that specific sounds, in her case shamanic beats, can induce altered states and even healing. This Google talk is fascinating.

 

 

 

[cheya]

13 hours ago, escott said:

Is anyone familiar with the work of Corine Sombrun? Her work leaves little doubt that specific sounds, in her case shamanic beats, can induce altered states and even healing. This Google talk is fascinating.

 

 

@escott  A totally fascinating video.  Thank you!
I mean Self-Induction!  I'd love to learn that. 

 

[doc benway]

On 8/31/2021 at 12:29 PM, manitou said:

 

 

I find it quite strange that Chandra acquired burning mouth syndrome and had to stop.  That is truly an odd manifestation for someone with that particular talent.

A fair few pianists and string musicians develop poorly defined, poorly treatable disorders of their hands known as focal dystonia. Like burning mouth, it seems to be related to the central nervous system in the Western paradigm.

 

[manitou]

Burning mouth for a scat style...

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

Burning mouth for a scat style...

 

Too many habañeros in the salad?

😁

[dwai]

26 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Too many habañeros in the salad?

😁

Or maybe Vato Loco 

[manitou]

 ?Que es este cosa?

[escott]

This thread has been very timely for me as I began doing "Vedic Meditation" a little over a month ago. I have been using the app '1 Giant Mind'. It teaches the technique in 12 lessons. I call it the generic form of TM. Everything I read about how the TM organization operates seems cultish to me. The part about receiving "your" mantra which is really just a word picked from a list that is based on your age and gender just seems like a con game to get you to pay a lot of money. One thing I do know is that meditation is scientifically proven to alter brain state in a good way. I have been struggling to keep a meditation practice going, but once I discovered Vedic Meditation I felt like I finally found the my style of meditation. I really enjoy it. It produces a light trance state when I have a good session. I don't know about magical empowerments. I don't know what enlightenment is supposed to be like. I only know that meditation has been proven to be healthy and that this method feels good to me. Here is a link to the article that inspired me to give this method a try:

 

https://mikesturm.medium.com/a-meditation-for-those-of-us-who-just-cant-seem-to-meditate-3fa77e61d9f3

 

And, also this one:

 

https://www.mensyogajournal.com/blog/how-to-teach-yourself-transcendental-meditation-for-free

 

[Vajra Fist]

4 hours ago, escott said:

This thread has been very timely for me as I began doing "Vedic Meditation" a little over a month ago. I have been using the app '1 Giant Mind'. It teaches the technique in 12 lessons. I call it the generic form of TM. Everything I read about how the TM organization operates seems cultish to me. The part about receiving "your" mantra which is really just a word picked from a list that is based on your age and gender just seems like a con game to get you to pay a lot of money. One thing I do know is that meditation is scientifically proven to alter brain state in a good way. I have been struggling to keep a meditation practice going, but once I discovered Vedic Meditation I felt like I finally found the my style of meditation. I really enjoy it. It produces a light trance state when I have a good session. I don't know about magical empowerments. I don't know what enlightenment is supposed to be like. I only know that meditation has been proven to be healthy and that this method feels good to me. Here is a link to the article that inspired me to give this method a try:

 

https://mikesturm.medium.com/a-meditation-for-those-of-us-who-just-cant-seem-to-meditate-3fa77e61d9f3

 

And, also this one:

 

https://www.mensyogajournal.com/blog/how-to-teach-yourself-transcendental-meditation-for-free

 

 

Excellent, yes I've heard thats a great resource.

 

There's also this book which is quite an interesting read

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everything-You-Want-Know-About-ebook/dp/B00AWBQJ2K/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=everything+you+want+to+know+about+TM&qid=1631170471&sr=8-1

 

After practicing this method for a while, I found I was building up tension through active mental recitation of the mantra. Apparently this is wrong, and you're not supposed to force it, rather just allow it to come naturally as if someone else was speaking it to you.

 

Then started to read a bit more about nondirective meditation, which is the broad category that TM belongs to.

 

I stumbled on this gem yesterday from Shinzen Young, a neuroscientist and former shingon monk. Just sitting without movement, allowing the mind to go where it wishes, eventually finding it settling after a period of time.

 

Apparently quite similar to mahamudra or dzogchen meditation. Funny how these things go full circle.

 

https://youtu.be/cZ6cdIaUZCA

 

 

[escott]

The information on this page seems to be a bit random, but in the table there is a section titled, "Secret TM Checking and Initiation Procedures". If this is true then it suggests to me that during TM training students might actually be susceptible to being influenced while in a hypnotic trance state. When I have read discussion threads on such sites as Quora the defenders of the official TM seem to take a mildly angry tone with anyone who says anything negative about the official TM training. There's no doubt that being trained and coached by an expert is superior to DIY trial and error. But, there just seems to be something that is "off" when a TM'er defends their method against other forms such as NSR or any other silent mantra-based Vedic Meditation.

 

See this page:

https://optimalbreathing.com/blogs/holistic-medicine-and-alternative-modalities/secret-tm-and-psychophysiological-and-bliss-techniques

 

[escott]

13 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Excellent, yes I've heard thats a great resource.

 

There's also this book which is quite an interesting read

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everything-You-Want-Know-About-ebook/dp/B00AWBQJ2K/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=everything+you+want+to+know+about+TM&qid=1631170471&sr=8-1

 

After practicing this method for a while, I found I was building up tension through active mental recitation of the mantra. Apparently this is wrong, and you're not supposed to force it, rather just allow it to come naturally as if someone else was speaking it to you.

 

Then started to read a bit more about nondirective meditation, which is the broad category that TM belongs to.

 

I stumbled on this gem yesterday from Shinzen Young, a neuroscientist and former shingon monk. Just sitting without movement, allowing the mind to go where it wishes, eventually finding it settling after a period of time.

 

Apparently quite similar to mahamudra or dzogchen meditation. Funny how these things go full circle.

 

https://youtu.be/cZ6cdIaUZCA

 

 

I have this book on order. It is supposed to arrive tomorrow. My expectation is that it might actually expound on the effortless meditation that Shinzen Young is describing in the video.

 

'Watching Your Life: Meditation Simplified and Demystified' by Teja Anand

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1072815613/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

About the mantra, you're right it is not be forced. It is to just happen on its own, without intending it, and it may even fade away and that's OK.

[dwai]

15 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

Just sitting without movement, allowing the mind to go where it wishes, eventually finding it settling after a period of time.

And (as most probably already know this) —  there is a sensation of “falling in”, like if you suddenly lost the ground you stand on, only the mind goes deeper into stillness (like from the turbulent ocean surface going deeper and deeper). We have to be watchful or else the “surprise” of this “falling in” sensation can jerk us out of meditation. But with time this becomes a welcome process.  

[dwai]

1 hour ago, escott said:

About the mantra, you're right it is not be forced. It is to just happen on its own, without intending it, and it may even fade away and that's O

Some mantras, I found make it so, that there is progressively greater pauses of stillness as we repeat them. Some others are not quite so, and require active focus. In the Hindu/Vedic mantras, those with lower number of syllables tend to be in the former category. Those with more syllables seem to be in the latter category.

 

unrelated to TM, but a general rule of practice in the Hindu tradition is what is called a “purascharana”. One purascharana is 100,000 x number of syllables in the mantra. Depending on one’s karma, the benefits of a mantra can be attained  by performing one or more such cycles. For some it can happen with a lower count, if they’ve done part of the work in a previous lifetime. 

[Vajra Fist]

9 hours ago, escott said:

I have this book on order. It is supposed to arrive tomorrow. My expectation is that it might actually expound on the effortless meditation that Shinzen Young is describing in the video.

 

'Watching Your Life: Meditation Simplified and Demystified' by Teja Anand

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1072815613/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

 

Thanks! I'll add this to my reading list.

 

Apparently this book also offers a description and guidance on the 'do nothing' meditation, which in Zen is called shikantaza.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/True-Meditation-Adyashanti/dp/1591794676

[escott]

I found another interesting resource, the Inner Peace Fellowship. This page gives directions for the mantra based Vedic meditation. It tells you to change to a different mantra after a certain duration of practice. They ask that you commit to 2 years of this introductory self guided practice before being permitted to participate in teacher led meditation through the organization.

 

https://www.innerpeacefellowship.org/how-to-meditate/

[manitou]

I have a CD of the Dalai Lama chanting 'I Am'.  It is definitely not 'aum'.  It is I Am.  I've heard him chant aum in another CD.

[Vajra Fist]

On 21/09/2021 at 3:13 PM, escott said:

It tells you to change to a different mantra after a certain duration of practice.

 

Interesting point. There could be something to this. On the transcendental and nondirective subreddits, there's plenty of people who say their mantra stopped working after a period of time, or that it no longer lead them into a meditative state. 

[Vajra Fist]

10 hours ago, manitou said:

I have a CD of the Dalai Lama chanting 'I Am'.  It is definitely not 'aum'.  It is I Am.  I've heard him chant aum in another CD.

 

I AM is the rough English translation of SO HUM, a mantra almost as common as AUM.

 

One of my teachers told me that the effect of the mantra relies to a degree on its correct pronunciation, that the sounds themselves are largely meaningless. Are you sure it's the Dalai Lama? 

[escott]

On 9/22/2021 at 4:59 PM, manitou said:

I have a CD of the Dalai Lama chanting 'I Am'.  It is definitely not 'aum'.  It is I Am.  I've heard him chant aum in another CD.

 

Interesting..., "I AM" is also the mantra used by Yogani in his book, Deep Meditation, that is part of the AYP system.

 

 https://www.aypsite.org/13.html

 

Consequently, I also found this old TDB thread that links TM to hypnosis.

 

 

I found it not because I was searching on TM, but because I was searching on self-hypnosis. I'm currently reading Joe Dispenza's book, 'Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself'. Realizing that what the book is teaching is just basic self-hypnosis I enrolled in a self-hypnosis course on Udemy, 'Master Your Mind & Create Healthy Habits 4 Life Success'. To me, there is a relationship between self-hypnosis and deep meditation, so I don't see a conflict. I actually think that part of the journey to self realization is experiencing different varieties of trance states. I'm not an expert on Dzogchen, but doesn't it's practice involve several types of meditation for this reason?

 

[senseless virtue]

4 hours ago, escott said:

I'm not an expert on Dzogchen, but doesn't it's practice involve several types of meditation for this reason?

 

You are completely mistaken.

 

Dzogchen is about resting in the ordinary awareness without any contrived effort. It's even called non-meditation for that reason.

[C T]

Dzogchen equipoise, the ultimate state of vastly effortless, immovable resting in ordinary awareness requires some extraordinary initial effort and practice to ground, and meditation is indeed part of the path, though its not the kind of meditation that is commonly understood. One way of looking at Non-doing (non-contrivance) in Dzogchen is simply the allowance of the mind to settle into its own natural brilliance. But initially, this can only happen, for example, at the end of chanting 20 reps of the 100 syllable mantra, or after 50 rounds of prostrations, where a momentary gap (of cognitive absoluteness, or sems nyid) may occur before ordinary mind (sems) takes over again. Average practitioners like myself may only get to rest in this space (or View) for a few seconds each time, but thats par for the course, I guess. In fact, most ordinary people have these moments too, recurring even on a daily basis, but then they have no recognition of it, and therefore, it becomes wasted potential. 

 

The hope is that with time, patience and perseverance, this gap, once recognized, gradually widens, and whenever it surfaces, remains for longer. As mentioned by Virtue, the non-meditation aspect is exactly that... the period post-practice where no effort is necessary to allow the mind to find its own equilibrium - its a stateless state where nothing needs to be taken away or added to make it more natural. Talk has it that siddhas & masters like Patrul Rinpoche, Tulku Urgyen et al maintain resting in this all-pervasive space of equipoise permanently.

Edited September 24, 2021 by C T

[manitou]

11 hours ago, C T said:

equipoise permanently.

 

 

I love that word.  Equipoise.  It describes my muddle-headedness, in that there is no pointed thought unless absolutely needed.  It's amazing that the memory of yesterday and the planning for tomorrow has pretty much gone.  It's probably dementia with a spiritual component that remains quite clear in the here and now.  But not the yesterday and tomorrow.  I might as well sit here and enjoy it...

[ThreeLeaf]

     Imo transcendent meditation is done by slowing your heart beat so you can enter the astral plain. Literally transcend into other dimensions or meet god if you want. That's how its done according to my research. Or you can take certain drugs to enter that plane. Drugs and spirituality has gone hand in hand since the beginning of time for us. Drugs are banned not because they are unhealthy for you but because they expand your mind and make you someone who is not a sheep and easily controlled. But my personal favorite form of higher meditation besides astral travel is mastering your WILL which i'm told is your ACTUAL soul. It can be proven too. There are many thought experiments that prove this.

[Earl Grey]

33 minutes ago, ThreeLeaf said:

     Imo transcendent meditation is done by slowing your heart beat so you can enter the astral plain. Literally transcend into other dimensions or meet god if you want. That's how its done according to my research. Or you can take certain drugs to enter that plane. Drugs and spirituality has gone hand in hand since the beginning of time for us. Drugs are banned not because they are unhealthy for you but because they expand your mind and make you someone who is not a sheep and easily controlled. But my personal favorite form of higher meditation besides astral travel is mastering your WILL which i'm told is your ACTUAL soul. It can be proven too. There are many thought experiments that prove this.

 

You're confusing terms, dude. You say "transcendent meditation" as a generic technique, but this is about Transcendental Meditation, which is an institutionalized practice, that celebrities from the Beatles to David Lynch are fans of practicing. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Earl Grey