Experiences with sexual qigong and daoist lovemaking

[freeform]

7 hours ago, Creation said:

I continue to look outside of Daoism for methods to do just this, in large part because the Longmen Daoists I'm familiar with don't talk about it (you, Damo, Nathan, WLP), but somehow I am certain of it's crucial importance.  Here is finally some confirmation that it is important and a part of Longmen Daoism.  Tibetan Buddhism, for instance, is much more up front about it.

It’s a big part of Longmen… but as a Daoist practice they tackle it in both a tantric way as well as in a meditative way. There’s ‘substance’ to spirit  

[freeform]

8 hours ago, Creation said:

For instance, for you say attachment to sexual pleasure takes you in the opposite directions of spirit, so why not be celibate if you are a cultivator?

Because it’s the attachment - not the sex that’s the issue… it’s just that sex has a particularly sticky quality

 

If you retreat from the world, you lose the feedback that life provides. It’s easy to feel unattached when away from temptation. And you may think you’re unattached when it’s just a lack of stimulation of that part of you.

 

You can have sex and be unattached. You can have money and status without the attachment too. You can appreciate sensory pleasure and not be ensnared by it. The harm is not in these things, it’s in what happens for most people inside as a result of these things…
 

Quote

And for those of us who haven't been through a torturous retreat with a teacher who knows what they are doing to develop detachment from sensation, what hope do we have of making any progress? 

well it’s not the only way to do things! This is an outside-in approach. Some teachers use martial arts training… or even the more unpleasant parts of Neigong training to achieve a similar aim. Becoming a monk has a similar effect at the start. Your head is shaved, your clothes are taken - these are outward displays of identity - and that’s a way to sever the attachment to identity on a gross level.

 

They key quality is acceptance… and the key transformation is of the zhi.

 

Most of these sticky instincts are based around fear… we’re obsessed with status because we feel we don’t have enough of it, or we don’t feel accepted… or that we’re simply not xxxx enough to deserve it. It’s the same with lust, greed and so forth. It’s always this sense of lack and this fear that we’re not enough.

 

At certain points this fear simply drops away. And if there’s a spiritual component to our training, something else is allowed to take over.

 

On that retreat I didn’t completely lose my attachment. I just gained strength and acceptance - this isn’t a transformation as such - it’s simply a deep recognition that satisfying desires is not the point of life. That was certainly a big step.

 

I definitely have not shed all my attachments. For me at this time, it’s my connection to spirit that’s stronger and ‘brighter’ than my connection to my view of myself… but that doesn’t mean I’ve transformed my attachments yet  

[freeform]

I should also probably add that denial or suppression of sexuality is also a form of attachment.  

 

The type of systems that cut off sexuality (eg monks, priests etc) are hoping that by the time this becomes problematic, the spiritual connection you develop will get you over it…

[Barnaby]

45 minutes ago, freeform said:

You can have money and status without the attachment too.

 

I'm a bit of a one-trick pony at the moment, forgive me... 

 

But in my experience (FWIW), you have to focus on and prioritise money and status to achieve them. And isn't that a form of attachment? 

[freeform]

6 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

I'm a bit of a one-trick pony at the moment, forgive me... 

 

But in my experience (FWIW), you have to focus on and prioritise money and status to achieve them. And isn't that a form of attachment? 

I knew of a teacher for whom financial independence was one of the main prerequisites to being accepted into the school. 
 

He charged an incredible amount for an introduction (the price of a nice, new German-made car) - but would teach for free once you’re accepted. 
 

I couldn’t afford the intro  

 

From my experience teachers always work to build up the student before deconstructing.

 

For instance you must make your body strong before being able to release the gripping of your muscles.

 

For some teachers you must be very successful in worldly pursuits to be able to release them in favour of spiritual practice…

 

For others you must be brave and confident before you can release fear.

 

I guess it can work in the opposite direction too. If you were born into wealth, you may need to lose everything before your attachment to wealth can be let go…

 

In my experience the people that do well in these arts have their life reasonably well-sorted.

 

I guess if you’re in a low state where life is a difficult overwhelming thing that you can barely handle - the part of you that clings or lets go will not be able to release its grip on what little it has…

 

When life is reasonably ok - and you feel you can handle things well, you’ll have an easier time of releasing your grip.

 

And I think there’s a difference between success that’s achieved through greed and success that’s achieved through competence.

 

Competence is an important quality  

[Wu Ming Jen]

The dragon gate longmen tradition is that the bedchamber is the meeting place of yin and yang within us giving birth to our divine origin that has been forgotten.

 

Sexual chi gung is the perversion and confused misunderstanding. The language and metaphor in taoist texts uses sex and birth to describe something else. Mistaking jing as sexual energy pushes people further off the path as well.

 

Now that being said sex is natural. Repression, retention, obsessing and all other aliments are not natural but man made contrivance.

 

good luck and have some kids that is a treasure forever.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Wu Ming Jen

[Master Logray]

17 minutes ago, freeform said:

I knew of a teacher for whom financial independence was one of the main prerequisites to being accepted into the school. 
 

He charged an incredible amount for an introduction (the price of a nice, new German-made car) - but would teach for free once you’re accepted. 
 

I couldn’t afford the intro  

 

From my experience teachers always work to build up the student before deconstructing.

 

For instance you must make your body strong before being able to release the gripping of your muscles.

 

For some teachers you must be very successful in worldly pursuits to be able to release them in favour of spiritual practice…

 

For others you must be brave and confident before you can release fear.

 

I guess it can work in the opposite direction too. If you were born into wealth, you may need to lose everything before your attachment to wealth can be let go…

 

In my experience the people that do well in these arts have their life reasonably well-sorted.

 

I guess if you’re in a low state where life is a difficult overwhelming thing that you can barely handle - the part of you that clings or lets go will not be able to release its grip on what little it has…

 

When life is reasonably ok - and you feel you can handle things well, you’ll have an easier time of releasing your grip.

 

And I think there’s a difference between success that’s achieved through greed and success that’s achieved through competence.

 

Competence is an important quality  

 

 

I think your experiences point to the pragmatic side of the eastern teachers.   People in the west tend to thinking of attachment, because they already have something.   While older teachers usually live a life of insufficiency, especially during their early years.  They know the harsh reality.

 

The Neidan path further complicates the money relationship.  Just like you, you need to detach from your lucrative career.  Then you have to make do for many decades and don't forget,  you will live longer than most people.  In the later stages, you would not be able to work at all and need someone to take care of all the chores during the critical period.   If you start off in 40s, you could need to prepare for another 60-80 years.   How much money would that be?

 

There are folklore about immortals posing as beggars.  But I can't recall any story about beggar becoming immortals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

I have contemplated these so called sexual chi gung teachers. It seems to me if there was any authenticity (An Actual linage or school  would it not begin with healthy relationship advice as a foundation (beginning with oneself then "others" ). Caring for one another and advice of nurturing a child from strong roots would seem appropriate. The existence of the teaching does not effect me because I am not buying it. Just curious of your thoughts 

[Nuralshamal]

@Wu Ming Jen

I agree with you, in my opinion, all of the sex stuff should only start after a solid foundation of:
1) Ethics and morals,
2) Physical strength and health from exercise & qigong
3) Emotional and mental balance from meditation

After this foundation, the sexual qigong would just be an extra layer to your daily practice regimen. Eating, drinking, sleeping, walking, showering - all of this can be turned into qigong. The same with lovemaking, it can be a part of your practice.

 

[forestofclarity]

14 hours ago, Creation said:

And for those of us who haven't been through a torturous retreat with a teacher who knows what they are doing to develop detachment from sensation, what hope do we have of making any progress? 

 

I noted before that this is a skill that one can train in daily life. For example, when we get an urge to do something, we can just sit with that urge for a moment before acting. Other ways to expand this tolerance in safe ways include sitting still for longer meditations, various forms of physical exercise, etc. You can also do practices such as giving up the good parking spots and walking, taking cold showers, and so on. 

 

I would not say the goal is detachment so much as non-attachment. 

[Shadow_self]

16 hours ago, Creation said:

I continue to look outside of Daoism for methods to do just this, in large part because the Longmen Daoists I'm familiar with don't talk about it (you, Damo, Nathan, WLP), but somehow I am certain of it's crucial importance.  Here is finally some confirmation that it is important and a part of Longmen Daoism.  Tibetan Buddhism, for instance, is much more up front about it.

 

Damo has spoken about it, of that I am sure  

 

I am just not sure he is using the same language as you see here 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Trunk]

Pardon me for not reading all previous posts in thread,

(I used to read & post on this topic incessantly years ago)

just throwing in 2 cents, hopefully relevant.

 

 

& cautions re: HT 'healing love' presentations/interpretations.

[liminal_luke]

32 minutes ago, Trunk said:

Pardon me for not reading all previous posts in thread,

(I used to read & post on this topic incessantly years ago)

just throwing in 2 cents, hopefully relevant.

 

 

I suspect lots of folks avoided this thread because, well, who really needs another thread about sex.  But this one went in some interesting and unexpected directions -- the relationship between art and cultivation -- and I'd be interested in your view.  

 

From @freeform

 

So yes - any internal practice that’s designed to heighten sensory or hedonistic pleasure moves in exactly the opposite trajectory to the transformation above… even if it’s well-meaning and wholesome it’s trajectory is destined to lead to attachment and deeper entanglement with the base aspect of self - instead of freedom and a movement towards the higher aspects of self.

 

And I’ve seen this happening in pretty much every school or system that focuses on hedonistic and sensual pleasure. Time after time. 
 

Anything that’s based around pleasure invariably tries to fill a deep inner dissatisfaction.

 

In Freeform's view, as I understand it, taking pleasure in viewing or creating art may be a deep human experience but does not bring a person closer to soul or spirit because it's an entanglement with the sensory world and the original spirit is something entirely other than that.  (Feel free to correct me Freeform if I've got you wrong.)  Your thoughts?

[Mithras]

They really need pleasure to suggest evidence. It’s hard to think past boundaries that bind each other, but it’s not a sin to be celibate and engage somewhere you do not see

 

Two birds fly on a stone,

rips fly across a muse which was not ordered

[freeform]

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

In Freeform's view, as I understand it, taking pleasure in viewing or creating art may be a deep human experience but does not bring a person closer to soul or spirit because it's an entanglement with the sensory world and the original spirit is something entirely other than that.  (Feel free to correct me Freeform if I've got you wrong.)

My main point was that any practice or system that is based on pleasure will not lead to spirit - and more likely send you in the opposite direction.

 

The part about art was about the fact that art can lead one to a deeper experience of the human heart-mind, but it can not lead to spirit.

 

There’s nothing wrong with enjoying art though! Or enjoying anything as long as you don’t cling to the pleasure of it.

[Nuralshamal]

I think the two approaches being outlined are:
1) Via positiva (the way of affirming)
2) Via negativa (the way of negating)

Many spiritual schools employ either the one or the other.

I was myself on via negativa until just one year ago. It's a way of continuously negating everything: the body, emotions, mind, food, relationships, art, sex, money, everything. You negate and you negate, until you reach the very ground of Being itself. The undifferentiated Absolute, the Dao, Brahman, the "la" in Al-la-hu, the unmanifest and undifferentiated aspect of God.

I feel that's the way you're all arguing for: negate and negate and negate, until there's nothing left to negate.

I did that my entire life, and it works  using that method, I too reached the Absolute through SKY meditation the past couple of years. It's the journey of ascent, ascending through successive layers of existence, until you reach the highest possible, actually the one outside of creation, yet holding creation and everpresent in all of creation.

What I was arguing in this thread is the "via positiva". After all the negating, after the ascension, after reaching the Absolute, I'm now on the journey of descent, affirming that the ground of Being is also active in my body. It's also active in my emotions. It's also active in my mind. It's also right there with me when making love, making money etc.

That's why it seems we're opposed to each other. We're both pointing towards the Ground of Being and discussing how to get there. Yet we're arguing for two different ways: via positiva and via negativa.

I recommend both. I've travelled the one, it worked. Now I'm travelling the other - it also works

If you're feeling more drawn to the via negativa, negating sex etc, go for it.

I'm arguing for the via positiva in this thread. Actually the point of this thread was to exchange experiences with sexual qigong and daoist lovemaking in order for all of us to grow. To grow and appreciate the fullness of life, including lovemaking, on the via positiva. Yet somehow the thread took a turn and ended up putting the via negativa up against the via positiva, with both sides arguing for the via they're personally on.

Let's sit back and enjoy the bigger perspective, with all of us as unique souls on our own personal journey back to Truth, some on the via negativa, some on the via positiva, yet all of us brothers in spirit, all part of the indivisible whole that is Almighty God.

[Mithras]

It’s so easy to see transformation around horror, like relative sizes and causes. I’d really just like to see this talked about, I’m so lazy I want to go back to being the guy who really doesn’t know anything about spirituality and just benefits off of the response

Edited November 15, 2022 by Mithras

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

I feel that's the way you're all arguing for: negate and negate and negate, until there's nothing left to negate.

What you’re touching on in regards of ‘affirming’ or ‘negating’ is related to the path of the ‘renunciate’ and the path of the ‘householder’.

 

A renunciate (basically a monk or a hermit) controls the outer circumstances in an effort to create an internal change. Rules and environmental circumstances are used to negate the negative effects of life.

 

Daoist alchemy generally falls under the path of the ‘householder’. They aim to make an internal change directly - inside - and the outer circumstances are used as a ‘pressure-test’ for this change. 

 

But it’s not as simple as negating or affirming.

 

It’s not that the householder with spiritual aims affirms or negates the pleasures of life. It’s that they don’t cut themselves off from either the pleasures or discomforts of life.

 

Sometimes it’s called ‘one foot in, one foot out’… or ‘being in the world but not of the world’.

 

The primary mode of operation is acceptance - not negation, not affirmation.

 

The key is non-attachment.
 

Denying sex, denying pleasure is as much a type of attachment as is leading a life in pursuit of them.

 

What I’m talking about is not a denial of pleasure or of sex.

 

I think that’s a really important thing to understand.

 

The alchemical path is more concerned with developing non-attachment to these things.
 

Meaning that you can have sex, but not be ensnared by it… you can have pleasure but not be blinded by it.

 

It means developing non-preference. 
 

This is the aim.
 

So any method that is based on increasing sensual pleasure invariably leads in the opposite direction to spiritual cultivation.

 

The funny thing is that simply practicing spiritual cultivation (including non-attachment) actually makes life more and more beautiful, magical and ‘pleasurable’.

 

Whereas cultivating hedonic pleasure over time leads to a deep inner emptiness. The making of a ‘hungry ghost’.

 

This is not important for non-cultivators. You can do what you like as a non-cultivator in my opinion.

 

Though I’d say a ‘good life’ would be one lived in pursuit of helping others… not in fulfilling one’s hedonic desires… But that’s just my opinion.

The stuff above is not just my opinion  

[Barnaby]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

A renunciate (basically a monk or a hermit) controls the outer circumstances in an effort to create an internal change. Rules and environmental circumstances are used to negate the negative effects of life.

 

In response to recent threads, I've been reading up a little on Karmamudra.

 

Interestingly, there seems to be some debate within the Tibetan tradition as to whether it's a practice that can be used by monks, or whether it contradicts their vows.

 

...Though reducing Karmamudra to sex with your girl/boy friend would seem to be missing the point somewhat   

[Nuralshamal]

12 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

In response to recent threads, I've been reading up a little on Karmamudra.

 

Interestingly, there seems to be some debate within the Tibetan tradition as to whether it's a practice that can be used by monks, or whether it contradicts their vows.

 

...Though reducing Karmamudra to sex with your girl/boy friend would seem to be missing the point somewhat   

Sexual meditation is something I've been really wanting to try. I have done the karmamudra practices as taught by Dr Nida Chenagtsang (with a visualised partner) and I was really impressed. First I did the tummo for some months (as advised by him) which I was very impressed by, then I did the karmamudra practices, and eventually build up to the visualised partner.

You can really tell that it has a profound effect on the physical body, the chakras, the energy body and channels, as well as of course the mind. I felt great peace and pleasure, as well as an increase in energy (from all the breath holding). I also felt it strengthened the muladhara chakra and sahasrara chakra, as well as helped a lot in opening and clearing the sushumna channel.

What he teaches works, I also tried his lucid dreaming. His practices were the only ones that ever worked for me. I've tried the practices of 2-3 other tibetan lamas, nothing ever worked. However, his bon meditation before sleep did the job for me in just 1-2 weeks.

However, I never tried the partnered karmamudra practices he recommended. What he teaches on the partnered practices is actually in opposition to what my daoist lovemaking teacher taught me.

My sexual qigong and daoist lovemaking teacher taught me that in order to be able to do sexual meditation, you need to be able to go so deep into the emptiness in meditation that you get a "morning erection". We go into the emptiness at night in deep sleep, and it's during that state that the body automatically produces an erection. That's why we wake up with one. However, as soon as you notice it, you get out of the meditative state, and the erection goes down.

It goes up due to the highly beneficial energetic effects on the body of the emptiness state.

You need to be able to go into that state at will, get an erection, let your partner sit on it, and then maintain your meditation. If you both stay in  the emptiness together, with her on top of you, the jing of both partners will be rebuilt to a state of youth in a matter of weeks. That's what he taught me.

However, it's been 7 years now of sexual qigong and lovemaking, and 10 years of daily meditation, yet I have still not reached that ability! But I have a degree of trust in what he said is true, I really do, and I hope to try it one day, and test it out for myself

It sounds really neat

This sexual qigong and daoist lovemaking teacher by the way had 2 main gurus: a female tibetan lama, and a male chinese daoist.

There were also some secrets parts of the sexual meditation, where you need to say different mantras at different times. However, he never taught me this. Unfortunately.

I feel like this thread is back on topic now  exchange of personal experiences and teachings on sexual qigong and daoist lovemaking.

Keep it rolling guys  keep it coming  

[freeform]

15 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

...Though reducing Karmamudra to sex with your girl/boy friend would seem to be missing the point somewhat

I watched a bit of that Guru Viking interview with Nida Chenagtsang… I like that his teacher was called the Horny Doctor 

 

(I think I would be suddenly and miraculously healed of all my ailments if I had to go to the horny doctor for healing!)

 

To me it just seemed that he was a horny dude that wanted to do some spiritual practice (high status pursuit there) and get laid doing it… Was he born in the west maybe he’d want to be a rock star instead.

 

 

[anshino23]

8 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

sexual qigong and daoist lovemaking teacher

 

Imagine putting this on your resume. You really can't make this stuff up!  

[Nuralshamal]

4 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

Imagine putting this on your resume. You really can't make this stuff up!  

Haha, no it's true  you really can't

[silent thunder]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

What you’re touching on in regards of ‘affirming’ or ‘negating’ is related to the path of the ‘renunciate’ and the path of the ‘householder’.

 

A renunciate (basically a monk or a hermit) controls the outer circumstances in an effort to create an internal change. Rules and environmental circumstances are used to negate the negative effects of life.

 

Daoist alchemy generally falls under the path of the ‘householder’. They aim to make an internal change directly - inside - and the outer circumstances are used as a ‘pressure-test’ for this change. 

 

But it’s not as simple as negating or affirming.

 

It’s not that the householder with spiritual aims affirms or negates the pleasures of life. It’s that they don’t cut themselves off from either the pleasures or discomforts of life.

 

Sometimes it’s called ‘one foot in, one foot out’… or ‘being in the world but not of the world’.

 

The primary mode of operation is acceptance - not negation, not affirmation.

 

The key is non-attachment.
 

Denying sex, denying pleasure is as much a type of attachment as is leading a life in pursuit of them.

 

What I’m talking about is not a denial of pleasure or of sex.

 

I think that’s a really important thing to understand.

 

The alchemical path is more concerned with developing non-attachment to these things.
 

Meaning that you can have sex, but not be ensnared by it… you can have pleasure but not be blinded by it.

 

It means developing non-preference. 
 

This is the aim.
 

So any method that is based on increasing sensual pleasure invariably leads in the opposite direction to spiritual cultivation.

 

The funny thing is that simply practicing spiritual cultivation (including non-attachment) actually makes life more and more beautiful, magical and ‘pleasurable’.

 

Whereas cultivating hedonic pleasure over time leads to a deep inner emptiness. The making of a ‘hungry ghost’.

 

This is not important for non-cultivators. You can do what you like as a non-cultivator in my opinion.

 

Though I’d say a ‘good life’ would be one lived in pursuit of helping others… not in fulfilling one’s hedonic desires… But that’s just my opinion.

The stuff above is not just my opinion  

Well said.

 

It puts me in mind of the meaning behind the saying that "A Sage is in the world, but not of it."

We can participate in the aspects of the world, without identifying with, or being ensnared by them.

[SHeretic]

On 2022. 11. 15. at 6:43 PM, Nuralshamal said:

My sexual qigong and daoist lovemaking teacher taught me that in order to be able to do sexual meditation, you need to be able to go so deep into the emptiness in meditation that you get a "morning erection". We go into the emptiness at night in deep sleep, and it's during that state that the body automatically produces an erection. That's why we wake up with one. However, as soon as you notice it, you get out of the meditative state, and the erection goes down.

It goes up due to the highly beneficial energetic effects on the body of the emptiness state.

You need to be able to go into that state at will, get an erection, let your partner sit on it, and then maintain your meditation. If you both stay in  the emptiness together, with her on top of you, the jing of both partners will be rebuilt to a state of youth in a matter of weeks. That's what he taught me.

However, it's been 7 years now of sexual qigong and lovemaking, and 10 years of daily meditation, yet I have still not reached that ability! But I have a degree of trust in what he said is true, I really do, and I hope to try it one day, and test it out for myself

It sounds really neat

This sexual qigong and daoist lovemaking teacher by the way had 2 main gurus: a female tibetan lama, and a male chinese daoist.

There were also some secrets parts of the sexual meditation, where you need to say different mantras at different times. However, he never taught me this. Unfortunately.

 

Hi,

Second time in my life when I've read about the "utilizing morning wood" stuff. I would love if you can elaborate on that part of the practice. Have you been taught how you can stabilize and carry on in that state? Dos and don'ts? Would you be kind to share what is/are the equivalent sign(s) in case of the female practitioner (readiness)?

As for mantras and the Tibetan path: a couple of years maybe even a decade ago an eclectic teacher, Paolo Proietti extensively wrote on sexual yoga, karmamudra, tantric sexual practices  etc. on the yoga.it forum (unfortunately now defunct). If my memory serves me right apart from the inherent benefits of these mantras (or rather the seed syllables of the chakras in his explanation) you can build up on them a conditioned reflex based on the initially spontaneously occuring phenomena.