Wuji Posture

[Earl Grey]

  On 9/7/2021 at 3:06 PM, zerostao said:

I lost count long ago. 

Why do you think there are so many differing views from 'the experts' ?

 

I can't really speak for the others, but for myself at the very least, I will say this: the instruction I had yielded the most positive results compared to what I saw with what others tried to explain to me or correct me when seeing me doing it "improperly" in public then showing me what was "the right way" without even asking me my name. Trying it their way to humor them created knee and back pain for me and my purpose of martial and health meditative benefits, which then led to them saying that I was "doing it wrong for years so this is just the correct way healing my body." When I showed them and explained how it worked, none of this pain came up for them, and they managed to stand longer, then could only say that it's easier because it's incorrect. 

 

I can't see how most "experts" arrive at their conclusion beyond a tidbit of wisdom that came from one teacher of mine:

 

"Someone else's opinion is more important to them than your experience."  This is a man whose YouTube comments are flooded with people telling him that Tai Chi doesn't work in a fight, except he's been using it for over 40 years as a law enforcement official, so if it doesn't work, he's still trying to find out why it doesn't considering how many criminals he's taken down using it.

 

So, opinions are sacred, even if neither facts nor reality agree.

[Shadow_self]

  On 9/6/2021 at 11:15 PM, dwai said:

better to learn to release and sink the Qi first. The stretching will come on its own when the Qi starts to radiate out from the dantien (imho). Beginners don’t really know how to be subtle with their bodies (unless they’re really gifted or physically very weak). 

Good, but there are many proponents of “the dantien needs to be created” too  

 

Depends on the process we are talking about though doesn't it?

 

Theres a lot of confusion regarding this in my opinion...

 

If we are to get very semantic....We could say the xiatian (lower field)  is not a dan tien (elixir field) per se...the Dan needs to be created, its the xiatian that needs consolidation ...but I think we are both talking about the xiatian in this case? 

 

Who believes the field needs to be created? I've not heard that before 

[Cleansox]

  On 9/7/2021 at 4:01 PM, Shadow_self said:

 

Who believes the field needs to be created? I've not heard that before 

It's up regulary here. 

 

The difference between having a field and an energy container that can accumulate (whatever), sometimes dan, sometimes true qi, and so on. 

[dwai]

  On 9/7/2021 at 4:01 PM, Shadow_self said:

 

Depends on the process we are talking about though doesn't it?

Agreed. 

  1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Theres a lot of confusion regarding this in my opinion...

 

If we are to get very semantic....We could say the xiatian (lower field)  is not a dan tien (elixir field) per se...the Dan needs to be created, its the xiatian that needs consolidation ...but I think we are both talking about the xiatian in this case? 

I don't particularly subscribe to that view that the dan needs to be created. I've been told by my teachers, and my own experience also tells me that this is already present.

 

How it's been explained to me is as follows "Think of the Dantien as an oven where you have a small fire going. The teacher will turn that into a big(ger) fire, which then you have to tend to and maintain/grow as you continue to practice". One can even grow this "fire" on their own, but it will take longer than if the teacher provided an accelerant. 

  1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Who believes the field needs to be created? I've not heard that before 

There are many strong opinions here that articulate that point of view. 

[freeform]

  On 9/7/2021 at 6:24 PM, Cleansox said:

It's up regulary here. 

 

The difference between having a field and an energy container that can accumulate (whatever), sometimes dan, sometimes true qi, and so on. 

 

  On 9/7/2021 at 6:34 PM, dwai said:

There are many strong opinions here that articulate that point of view. 

That’s probably referring to me?

 

Of course nuance in what I say often gets lost when processed by some minds… @Cleansox got my POV about right though.

 

Everyone has a ‘field’ at the area of the lower Dantien. 

 

You can consolidate Qi in that field. Young children naturally have Qi consolidated there - which gets dispersed by the teenage years… but it can be restored through qigong training or even transmission from a teacher.

 

In most alchemical systems you then go further than this and ‘build’ a ‘container’ - an energetic (and even somewhat physical) vessel for further consolidating and concentrating Qi to a much greater extent - as well as generating and ‘cooking’ various alchemical ‘substances’ there.

 

Not all traditions have this. I’ve come across both. In my experience, the traditions that don’t tend to build a Dantien aren’t concerned with alchemy or anything like that - they’re generally health focused or sometimes martial arts focused systems.

[Dev]

  On 9/7/2021 at 6:24 PM, Cleansox said:

It's up regulary here. 

 

The difference between having a field and an energy container that can accumulate (whatever), sometimes dan, sometimes true qi, and so on. 

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the definition of 'dan'? 

[Dev]

  On 9/7/2021 at 7:07 PM, freeform said:

 

That’s probably referring to me?

 

Of course nuance in what I say often gets lost when processed by some minds… @Cleansox got my POV about right though.

 

Everyone has a ‘field’ at the area of the lower Dantien. 

 

You can consolidate Qi in that field. Young children naturally have Qi consolidated there - which gets dispersed by the teenage years… but it can be restored through qigong training or even transmission from a teacher.

 

In most alchemical systems you then go further than this and ‘build’ a ‘container’ - an energetic (and even somewhat physical) vessel for further consolidating and concentrating Qi to a much greater extent - as well as generating and ‘cooking’ various alchemical ‘substances’ there.

 

Not all traditions have this. I’ve come across both. In my experience, the traditions that don’t tend to build a Dantien aren’t concerned with alchemy or anything like that - they’re generally health focused or sometimes martial arts focused systems.

 

And this container is 'built' partly through induction of the earth's yin field, which we need a correct wuji pose to be able to conduct through us - hence importance of opening yong quan? Also through aligning our centre of gravity with our dantien, because gravity is a yin field? And through attention/awareness of the dantien with our mind, because the mind is also essentially yin? Is that correct?

So is the 'container' itself made of yin, and the stuff we 'store inside' it yang?

[Shadow_self]

  On 9/7/2021 at 6:34 PM, dwai said:

Agreed. 

I don't particularly subscribe to that view that the dan needs to be created. I've been told by my teachers, and my own experience also tells me that this is already present.

 

How it's been explained to me is as follows "Think of the Dantien as an oven where you have a small fire going. The teacher will turn that into a big(ger) fire, which then you have to tend to and maintain/grow as you continue to practice". One can even grow this "fire" on their own, but it will take longer than if the teacher provided an accelerant. 

There are many strong opinions here that articulate that point of view. 

 

Im not sure I understand how that could be the case though? The way ive been given it, is that the ingredients are already there (somewhat) but these ingredients need to be refined, and combined in order to create the dan

 

  On 9/7/2021 at 7:07 PM, freeform said:

 

That’s probably referring to me?

 

Of course nuance in what I say often gets lost when processed by some minds… @Cleansox got my POV about right though.

 

Everyone has a ‘field’ at the area of the lower Dantien. 

 

You can consolidate Qi in that field. Young children naturally have Qi consolidated there - which gets dispersed by the teenage years… but it can be restored through qigong training or even transmission from a teacher.

 

In most alchemical systems you then go further than this and ‘build’ a ‘container’ - an energetic (and even somewhat physical) vessel for further consolidating and concentrating Qi to a much greater extent - as well as generating and ‘cooking’ various alchemical ‘substances’ there.

 

Not all traditions have this. I’ve come across both. In my experience, the traditions that don’t tend to build a Dantien aren’t concerned with alchemy or anything like that - they’re generally health focused or sometimes martial arts focused systems.

 

This is how I understand it also...at least its how it was explained to me

 

The physical(ish) Dan tien is a very real thing...actually, if you take a look closely at the old video of John Chang...you can see it when one of the guys touches it...its clear as day...looks like  an orange  

[freeform]

  On 9/7/2021 at 7:22 PM, Dev said:

 

And this container is 'built' partly through induction of the earth's yin field, which we need a correct wuji pose to be able to conduct through us - hence importance of opening yong quan? Also through aligning our centre of gravity with our dantien, because gravity is a yin field? And through attention/awareness of the dantien with our mind, because the mind is also essentially yin? Is that correct?

So is the 'container' itself made of yin, and the stuff we 'store inside' it yang?

The answer is ‘yes sort of - but not quite’.

 

In the beginning you’re getting the physical structure right… that in itself takes a while.

 

once the structure is right (your body is in the right structural position for now) - you begin to apply internal principles - finding the Dantien, sinking the Qi, activating the Dantien and so on.

 

The Qi will condense at the LDT and activate and begin to mobilise through the body and mind (often erratically at first and then smoothly and more powerfully once the channels start opening and mind starts to get quiet).

 

At this stage you’ll usually have enough Qi to begin shaping the tissues and building the container. There are various methods for this using mudras, sound, breathing and other things - often under the umbrella term Dantien gong.

 

The structure and the physical principles, the weight over the front of the food, the interaction of the yin field and so on set up the conditions for the other things to develop.

 

One thing is built on the other. Kinda how a building is put together.

 

Thats why it’s important to follow one system rather than integrating all sorts of principles from different systems - even if they sound complementary.

 

 

[dwai]

  On 9/7/2021 at 8:41 PM, Shadow_self said:

Im not sure I understand how that could be the case though? The way ive been given it, is that the ingredients are already there (somewhat) but these ingredients need to be refined, and combined in order to create the dan

What is so hard to understand. There are both the ingredients and the "cooked" stuff. All refinement is based on the level of clarity/purity in our minds, and the ability of the mind to consolidate (as opposed to scattered by thoughts/emotions/feelings). Once the mind is consolidated, "qi" consolidates. Once qi consolidates, it can be directed to be stored in the dantien.

 

Where is the need to over-complicate and make it sound like it is harder than it is (being able to consolidate the mind is a lifelong endeavor for most of us)? Stand, release and let the qi sink to the dantien. As the mind consolidates, the qi will consolidate and condense in the stomach area to the size of a golf ball. There's more to it, but mostly it will result in great outcries of disbelief and outrage if I share that info here openly  

 

In any case, it's best to not confuse the heck out of Dev -- he should pick a path and stick with it until he experiences the fruits of that path.

[Shadow_self]

  On 9/7/2021 at 11:25 PM, dwai said:

What is so hard to understand. There are both the ingredients and the "cooked" stuff. All refinement is based on the level of clarity/purity in our minds, and the ability of the mind to consolidate (as opposed to scattered by thoughts/emotions/feelings). Once the mind is consolidated, "qi" consolidates. Once qi consolidates, it can be directed to be stored in the dantien.

 

Where is the need to over-complicate and make it sound like it is harder than it is (being able to consolidate the mind is a lifelong endeavor for most of us)? Stand, release and let the qi sink to the dantien. As the mind consolidates, the qi will consolidate and condense in the stomach area to the size of a golf ball. There's more to it, but mostly it will result in great outcries of disbelief and outrage if I share that info here openly  

 

In any case, it's best to not confuse the heck out of Dev -- he should pick a path and stick with it until he experiences the fruits of that path.

 

What im finding hard to discern is whether you are referencing neigong or neidan

 

Neigong, yes I see the parallels to what you are saying....but not  as much for neidan, not as I understand it at least.

 

In the system I study...alchemy is quite a bit more nuanced than standing, sink the qi, consolidate the mind and refine the field....this sounds like specific parts of neigong? ...Alchemy is a lot of seated work in what I do at least

 

For example when forming the elixir....if one of the "ingredients" is not correctly prepared....it can cause very serious health problems... it is not related to neigong per se

 

Of course I understand different systems have different mechanisms and ways of achieving certain things...but I can only speak for what I am familiar with

[Cleansox]

  On 9/8/2021 at 3:30 AM, Shadow_self said:

 

For example when forming the elixir../... ... /"ingredients" /... ... /.. it is not related to neigong per se

It is similar in what I practice, what has been described in this thread is steps prior to the alchemical process proper. 

 

[freeform]

  On 9/8/2021 at 3:30 AM, Shadow_self said:

For example when forming the elixir

The confusion stems from this:

 

  On 9/7/2021 at 6:34 PM, dwai said:

I don't particularly subscribe to that view that the dan needs to be created. I've been told by my teachers, and my own experience also tells me that this is already present

 

  On 9/7/2021 at 6:34 PM, dwai said:

"Think of the Dantien as an oven where you have a small fire going. The teacher will turn that into a big(ger) fire, which then you have to tend to and maintain/grow as you continue to practice".

 

To anyone who’s been in an alchemical tradition long enough, what Dwai is describing is consolidated qi - or an active Dantien.

 

The confusion starts when Dwai assumes that this Qi is Dan (the elixir). It’s not - not even close.

 

Does it mean the method of ‘growing the little fire in the oven’ wrong? No of course not. In fact it’s a prerequisite for doing anything ‘internal’.
 

It’s just not Nei Dan - which takes things to a completely different level.

 

[Earl Grey]

  On 9/8/2021 at 7:43 AM, freeform said:

The confusion stems from this:

 

 

 

To anyone who’s been in an alchemical tradition long enough, what Dwai is describing is consolidated qi - or an active Dantien.

 

The confusion starts when Dwai assumes that this Qi is Dan (the elixir). It’s not - not even close.

 

Does it mean the method of ‘growing the little fire in the oven’ wrong? No of course not. In fact it’s a prerequisite for doing anything ‘internal’.
 

It’s just not Nei Dan - which takes things to a completely different level.

 

 

I learned ZZ first and foremost for martial purposes, then later I learned a variation for cultivation. Exterior appearances look similar, but the internal process and intention are totally different.

 

The OP seems to want an alchemical tutorial, though for most people, I really recommend the martial approach for safety beforehand, especially if they don't have someone actively guiding them regularly. 

[Shadow_self]

  On 9/8/2021 at 7:42 AM, Cleansox said:

It is similar in what I practice, what has been described in this thread is steps prior to the alchemical process proper. 

 

 

Isnt that basically neigong though?

 

Its pretty much accepted that you cannot progress through the alchemical process properly without prior neigong training

 

Of course the term neigong means many things...it can refer to IMA, or it can refer to the process of change preceding alchemical work

 

In this case I'm making reference to the latter

 

  On 9/8/2021 at 7:43 AM, freeform said:

The confusion stems from this:

 

 

 

To anyone who’s been in an alchemical tradition long enough, what Dwai is describing is consolidated qi - or an active Dantien.

 

The confusion starts when Dwai assumes that this Qi is Dan (the elixir). It’s not - not even close.

 

Does it mean the method of ‘growing the little fire in the oven’ wrong? No of course not. In fact it’s a prerequisite for doing anything ‘internal’.
 

It’s just not Nei Dan - which takes things to a completely different level.

 

 

This makes sense, and I had assumed as such...Now you may correct me if im wrong, but the mental work required for alchemical transformation is leaps and bounds ahead of what's required for neigong( which from what Im told is little)

[Dev]

  On 9/7/2021 at 9:16 PM, freeform said:

The answer is ‘yes sort of - but not quite’.

 

In the beginning you’re getting the physical structure right… that in itself takes a while.

 

once the structure is right (your body is in the right structural position for now) - you begin to apply internal principles - finding the Dantien, sinking the Qi, activating the Dantien and so on.

 

The Qi will condense at the LDT and activate and begin to mobilise through the body and mind (often erratically at first and then smoothly and more powerfully once the channels start opening and mind starts to get quiet).

 

At this stage you’ll usually have enough Qi to begin shaping the tissues and building the container. There are various methods for this using mudras, sound, breathing and other things - often under the umbrella term Dantien gong.

 

The structure and the physical principles, the weight over the front of the food, the interaction of the yin field and so on set up the conditions for the other things to develop.

 

One thing is built on the other. Kinda how a building is put together.

 

Thats why it’s important to follow one system rather than integrating all sorts of principles from different systems - even if they sound complementary.

 

 

 

So is neigong opening the channels, building the container, accumulating chi and circulating/concentrating the chi, and nei dan the alchemy that comes after this,, refining/combining chi and converting it into different forms?

[Earl Grey]

And now we see where the discovery and exploration phase can affect good practice when confusion and mixed messages confront the new aspirants.

[Dev]

@freeform What exactly is the definition of a chakra according to daoist nei gong/dan? I haven't heard people using the term much, but i remember reading that in lvl 72 of mo pai 'all 72 chakras are open'? (Yes, i know the info about mo pai is mostly bullshit, you guys have made sure to make me aware of that, thats why I'm asking)

[Shadow_self]

  On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, Dev said:

@freeform What exactly is the definition of a chakra according to daoist nei gong/dan? I haven't heard people using the term much, but i remember reading that in lvl 72 of mo pai 'all 72 chakras are open'? (Yes, i know the info about mo pai is mostly bullshit, you guys have made sure to make me aware of that, thats why I'm asking)

 

This might help

 

http://www.scholarsage.com/the-chakra-in-daoism/

[freeform]

  On 9/8/2021 at 9:07 AM, Earl Grey said:

Exterior appearances look similar, but the internal process and intention are totally different.

Yeah exactly. And the difference is not just between martial and spiritual disciplines - they are different for every tradition within each respective group.

 

So two spiritual Neigong systems will have two different wujis because they’re usually emphasising different things according to their system of progression.

 

  On 9/8/2021 at 10:05 AM, Shadow_self said:

Now you may correct me if im wrong, but the mental work required for alchemical transformation is leaps and bounds ahead of what's required for neigong( which from what Im told is little)

Yup - completely different. In alchemy you deal with various medatitive states similar to Samadhi and Jhanna - and you use the ‘energetic substance’ of those states as alchemical ingredients.

 

In Neigong it’s really about becoming quiet, centred and calm… and developing absorption when more advanced.

 

In Xi Sui Jing - which you could say is the ‘pinnacle’ of neigong, the distinctions between Neidan, Neigong and meditation blur a little. But this is a closely guarded part of Neigong - not what’s talked about in public.
 

  On 9/8/2021 at 11:38 AM, Dev said:

So is neigong opening the channels, building the container, accumulating chi and circulating/concentrating the chi, and nei dan the alchemy that comes after this,, refining/combining chi and converting it into different forms?

Haha - yeah sort of. It’s difficult to create simple distinctions without dumbing things down too much.

 

Alchemy is in essence about spiritual growth - and Neigong is about what I’d call ‘internal growth’. It’s not ‘spiritual’ in itself - it prepares you for spiritual practice (or healing practice, or internal martial arts, or for ‘magic’ and esoteric stuff with spirits and things or all manner of other energetic and esoteric things - all depends on the tradition).

 

  On 9/8/2021 at 11:42 AM, Earl Grey said:

And now we see where the discovery and exploration phase can affect good practice when confusion and mixed messages confront the new aspirants.

I think that if you’re smart enough to categorise and not try to change, adapt and add stuff from different systems - then it’s fine to discuss and discover.

But keep your practice to one system - if it’s a complete system, then nothing else is necessary, and if anything is potentially really problematic.

Sometimes systems aren’t ‘complete’ and will require various additional factors - but deciding what needs adding or removing is best left to a teacher that has gone down that path successfully and knows what they’re doing.
 

Not everything applies to what you’re doing - not everything is relevant. 
 

Keep that in mind and you should be ok to discuss and discover.

 

Don’t use your body and mind as a lab rat  

 

  On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, Dev said:

What exactly is the definition of a chakra according to daoist nei gong/dan?

Some Daoist lineages use them, some don’t. For the (more traditional) ones that do use them, the chakras are largely irrelevant until really quite far into the system.

 

Theres plenty of modern new agey systems that include chakras from the start - but in reality they’re dealing with something very superficial - not ‘the real chakra’ - or at least what the older, more traditional systems would call ‘the real chakra’.

[dwai]

  On 9/8/2021 at 7:43 AM, freeform said:

To anyone who’s been in an alchemical tradition long enough, what Dwai is describing is consolidated qi - or an active Dantien.

Thats' the way to start the inner work. Sinking the qi is step 1  

  6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

The confusion starts when Dwai assumes that this Qi is Dan (the elixir). It’s not - not even close.

 

Does it mean the method of ‘growing the little fire in the oven’ wrong? No of course not. In fact it’s a prerequisite for doing anything ‘internal’.
 

It’s just not Nei Dan - which takes things to a completely different level.

IMHO, this Nei Dan/Neigong distinction is a false dichotomy and a recent development. The main teacher of my system never distinguishes between Neigong and Neidan, and yet, most of what he teaches as Daogong would be considered Neidan practices. 

 

[Cleansox]

  On 9/8/2021 at 1:59 PM, dwai said:

Thats' the way to start the inner work. Sinking the qi is step 1  

IMHO, this Nei Dan/Neigong distinction is a false dichotomy and a recent development. 

I thought that distinctions between practices was established at least as early as when Wuzhen Pian was written. 

 

The terms might have changed, but the distinction is firmly established. 

[Master Logray]

The term Neidan has a long history and Taoists all know about it.  But the term Neigong has only been popularly used during the pre-WWII period by a writer on Immortals, before that it was very obscure.  The term Chi Kung or Qi Gong was created in 1950 only. 

 

As these are all internal trainings, they may look the same, but vastly different; or look very different and doing the same thing.  And each traditions have their own definitions and flavours added.  Damo is teaching Neigong, but it looks like Chi Kung very much. 

 

I think unless one is a scholar doing study, it is better for the usual people to concentrate on actual practice than spending time on which is which.

[MIchael80]

  On 9/8/2021 at 12:32 PM, freeform said:

Yeah exactly. And the difference is not just between martial and spiritual disciplines - they are different for every tradition within each respective group.

 

So two spiritual Neigong systems will have two different wujis because they’re usually emphasising different things according to their system of progression.

 

Yup - completely different. In alchemy you deal with various medatitive states similar to Samadhi and Jhanna - and you use the ‘energetic substance’ of those states as alchemical ingredients.

 

In Neigong it’s really about becoming quiet, centred and calm… and developing absorption when more advanced.

 

In Xi Sui Jing - which you could say is the ‘pinnacle’ of neigong, the distinctions between Neidan, Neigong and meditation blur a little. But this is a closely guarded part of Neigong - not what’s talked about in public.
 

Haha - yeah sort of. It’s difficult to create simple distinctions without dumbing things down too much.

 

Alchemy is in essence about spiritual growth - and Neigong is about what I’d call ‘internal growth’. It’s not ‘spiritual’ in itself - it prepares you for spiritual practice (or healing practice, or internal martial arts, or for ‘magic’ and esoteric stuff with spirits and things or all manner of other energetic and esoteric things - all depends on the tradition).

 

I think that if you’re smart enough to categorise and not try to change, adapt and add stuff from different systems - then it’s fine to discuss and discover.

But keep your practice to one system - if it’s a complete system, then nothing else is necessary, and if anything is potentially really problematic.

Sometimes systems aren’t ‘complete’ and will require various additional factors - but deciding what needs adding or removing is best left to a teacher that has gone down that path successfully and knows what they’re doing.
 

Not everything applies to what you’re doing - not everything is relevant. 
 

Keep that in mind and you should be ok to discuss and discover.

 

Don’t use your body and mind as a lab rat  

 

Some Daoist lineages use them, some don’t. For the (more traditional) ones that do use them, the chakras are largely irrelevant until really quite far into the system.

 

Theres plenty of modern new agey systems that include chakras from the start - but in reality they’re dealing with something very superficial - not ‘the real chakra’ - or at least what the older, more traditional systems would call ‘the real chakra’.

Hi freeform! 

Very interesting....

I would be interested what you mean with true chakras?

[freeform]

  On 9/8/2021 at 5:14 PM, MIchael80 said:

Hi freeform! 

Very interesting....

I would be interested what you mean with true chakras?

Well - to be honest, I haven’t accessed them, so my understanding is only theoretical.

 

Not all alchemical paths use it. The ones that work extensively with Ling and the central channel tend to be the ones that do.

 

If you understand the central channel as a sort of leek with lots of layers - it’s your ability to penetrate through the layers into the very core that dictates if you’re able to access the chakra.

 

And penetrating to the core is a function of meditative concentration. Different depths of concentration give access to the different layers. The sort of concentration that is beyond the majority of meditators.

 

Actually ‘opening’ the chakra is exceptionally (and permanently) transformative in both one’s consciousness and physically. Transformative to an extent that it becomes nearly impossible to live a normal life in society.

 

What most people think as the chakra is usually simply Wei Qi - or sometimes the acupuncture points that often correlate.

 

The ‘true’ chakra exist on the preheaven level as far as I understand.