Wuji Posture

[Dev]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Just think about it, if you’re perched up on the balls of your feet for long periods of time (like a ballerina), you essentially are holding a “calf raise”. Why won’t your calf muscles not “burn/sting” or even cramp? 

I read a little more into it today (from Damo), and i think that i might have had my weight a tiny bit too far forward, because one's heels should not be lifting off the ground (mine weren't, but were about to). Gonna try it slightly further back today, still on frontal part and see if my calves hold up better.

[Dev]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

The discomfort is normal, and your weight should be as you stated, towards the front....in or around a 2:1 ratio of front to back to open yongchuan

Okay that's good to hear  

 

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Heres a tip....Purchase a month long membership to the academy...

 

Take EXTENSIVE notes and practice that for a while if you are tight on money....

 

You needn't worry about the neigong for now. You'll have plenty to keep you busy for a while

 

I strongly suggest you take my advice ….there's nuances you wont pick up in the book that will save you endless hours and incorrect alignments. Nobody should ever try to learn from a book...they should only use it to supplement

Now that's a good idea! I didn't think of that. I just wish the monthly membership had full access to their library. And yeah I'd much rather learn from videos and lessons as opposed to a book, but at least in the meantime I've made a neigong workbook, and have been carefully reading Damos book, making notes on everything

[Dev]

53 minutes ago, dwai said:

That is possible to do just as well by balancing the weight between the heels and the balls of the feet. I've seen various versions of this kind of instruction -- "spread the tarsal bones wider, apply more weight/pressure on the K1 point, treat the big toe, K1 point and the center of the heel as 3 nails you've dug into the earth and so on". 

FWIW, in my experience (and I've been doing this for more than 20 years now) -- the best way to stand in wuji is when you are neither falling forward nor backward -- and your weight simply falls through to the ground. The more important thing to watch out for in wuji stance is really about suspending the crown point, tucking the chin slightly,  leaning the torso slightly forward,  and letting the chest muscles sink downward. Another thing is to not let your toes splay out -- keep the toes perpendicular to each other or even better, slightly splayed inward. 

I'll play around, and see if I can keep my tarsal bones spread to the same degree while distributing my weight a little better. If I can do it that way without forcing them to spread, then why not i suppose

[Dev]

22 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

There is a way to have the weight pressurize the front of the feet without you falling forward, it has to do with the manipulation of the kua/pelvis region. I have noticed this error in my practice as well, leaning forward in a way that was not helpful, almost doing a “calf raise” as you say, then found that putting the weight forward was not the issue, but the how of doing it was.

That sounds like something Damo would say. He did mention that the kua is fundamental, and often the source of problems in posture. I'm still familiarising myself with the kua, so I'll play around a bit and see if i can grasp what you're talking about. Thanks for the advice

[freeform]

8 minutes ago, Dev said:

distributing my weight a little better

Just to reiterate - if he says to put your weight in the front - then that’s what you should be doing. It’s a key principle in several systems that activate the Dantien extensively.

 

Don’t adjust to minimise discomfort - the discomfort is a sign that the body is changing. You’ll need to make friends with discomfort for a couple of years. It becomes kind of pleasant actually - like the discomfort of a good workout.
 

Don’t adjust instructions to fit anyone else’s system or understanding. If you’re doing different practices from different systems, keep them completely separate.

[Piyadasi]

10 minutes ago, Dev said:

That sounds like something Damo would say. He did mention that the kua is fundamental, and often the source of problems in posture. I'm still familiarising myself with the kua, so I'll play around a bit and see if i can grasp what you're talking about. Thanks for the advice

Well, I did take it from him   Just keep practicing, keep trying, developing, I'm sure you'll find it. I also realized it was an error when I noticed the same thing, that it was almost as if my heels were lifting off the ground.

[freeform]

35 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

manipulation of the kua

This is usually the biggest thing to work on extensively in the beginning. It’s also very nuanced and you’ll discover there are many levels of opening in the kwa as you develop over the years.

 

 

[Dev]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

Just to reiterate - if he says to put your weight in the front - then that’s what you should be doing. It’s a key principle in several systems that activate the Dantien extensively.

 

Don’t adjust to minimise discomfort - the discomfort is a sign that the body is changing. You’ll need to make friends with discomfort for a couple of years. It becomes kind of pleasant actually - like the discomfort of a good workout.
 

Don’t adjust instructions to fit anyone else’s system or understanding. If you’re doing different practices from different systems, keep them completely separate.

Okay, I'll take your advice. Piyadasi mentioned its probably to do with my kua, so I'll focus on developing that a bit, and keep my weight on the front of my feet. And I can imagine - I used to hate being hungry, now I actually really enjoy the sensation in my stomach, and just being light and not bloated 

[Dev]

3 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

Well, I did take it from him   Just keep practicing, keep trying, developing, I'm sure you'll find it. I also realized it was an error when I noticed the same thing, that it was almost as if my heels were lifting off the ground.

Ahh, there we go Thanks for the insight, appreciate it. I'll get on it

[Dev]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

This is usually the biggest thing to work on extensively in the beginning. It’s also very nuanced and you’ll discover there are many levels of opening in the kwa as you develop over the years.

Yeah to be honest I'm still trying to figure out in terms of flexing and contracting and sensation exactly what it is

 

[Earl Grey]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

Just to reiterate - if he says to put your weight in the front - then that’s what you should be doing. It’s a key principle in several systems that activate the Dantien extensively.

 

Don’t adjust to minimise discomfort - the discomfort is a sign that the body is changing. You’ll need to make friends with discomfort for a couple of years. It becomes kind of pleasant actually - like the discomfort of a good workout.
 

Don’t adjust instructions to fit anyone else’s system or understanding. If you’re doing different practices from different systems, keep them completely separate.

 

100%. I offered what I had to simplify things, but he should really stick with what he wants to follow, and it should be Damo rather than everyone else commenting and correcting by text, which is worse than reading one book itself since it is inconsistent. 

 

He should really just talk to one of Damo's instructors or advanced students if not Damo himself for help, but if not, well, everyone will either find something that works for them or they'll approximate it as best they can and be happy with it hopefully. 

[freeform]

1 minute ago, Dev said:

Yeah to be honest I'm still trying to figure out in terms of flexing and contracting and sensation exactly what it is

 

Yeah - and it takes a long time to open. Incremental progression over the long term is the name of the game… and just when you start getting the structure right your Zifa gong will kick in and you'll have to deal with that craziness for a while 

[freeform]

1 minute ago, Earl Grey said:

100%. I offered what I had to simplify things, but he should really stick with what he wants to follow,

Yeah exactly - with these things it’s not the case that principles and refinements from one art will benefit another.

 

Nothing wrong with doing internal martial arts along with the Neigong though - just best to keep the principles distinct and separate.

[Dev]

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah exactly - with these things it’s not the case that principles and refinements from one art will benefit another.

 

Nothing wrong with doing internal martial arts along with the Neigong though - just best to keep the principles distinct and separate.

Yeah I feel that I'm not confident enough with my knowledge to be able to learn 2 different systems at the moment, I'm still at the point of accidentally making up chinese words

[Dev]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah - and it takes a long time to open. Incremental progression over the long term is the name of the game… and just when you start getting the structure right your Zifa gong will kick in and you'll have to deal with that craziness for a while 

Is that the shakes?

[Earl Grey]

18 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah exactly - with these things it’s not the case that principles and refinements from one art will benefit another.

 

Nothing wrong with doing internal martial arts along with the Neigong though - just best to keep the principles distinct and separate.

While I encourage exploration, it may be better for someone interested in following Damo to ask him or his students in Damo’s forums if there are any rather than widely to people with differing opinions and qualifications though. There’s already enough dissenting opinion about how to do it right here and for beginners, this will cause more confusion. Better to establish a foundation before comparing among systems at the outset, which will only confuse and create a poor foundation.

[freeform]

1 minute ago, Earl Grey said:

it may be better for someone interested in following Damo to ask him or his students in Damo’s forums if there are any rather than widely to people with differing opinions and qualifications though.

Totally agree.

 

I also think if you really want to go deep into a system you have to learn it in person - as much as it’s possible.

 

Online learning is fine to start

[dwai]

@Dev if you’re interested in what I have to say, feel free to PM me. Obviously it’s not a good idea to have too many cooks/recipes.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

I read a little more into it today (from Damo), and i think that i might have had my weight a tiny bit too far forward, because one's heels should not be lifting off the ground (mine weren't, but were about to). Gonna try it slightly further back today, still on frontal part and see if my calves hold up better.

One last piece of friendly advise, and then I’ll leave you in the good hands of the residents experts here…  

 

The reason why it’s suggested to lean forward slightly with the upper torso is because we tend to think we’re standing perfectly straight but end up leaning backward — this is especially true if you can’t suspend the crown and the martial crown is not raised up (which why we tuck the chin in slightly). The slight leaning forward also activates the Kua. 
 

These things take a bit of playing around with to find the correct combination — which will vary from person to person. 
 

Main thing is to relax the mind — if you’re constantly fretting over how your posture is, your qi will not sink. Just stand and let your mind rest in the lower abdomen area. If your posture is incorrect, your mind will move to where there is discomfort. 
 

The mind is blocked when it’s occupied. When it is unoccupied (with thoughts), it is unblocked. Without unblocking your mind, you can’t make progress in the internal arts. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by dwai

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

That is possible to do just as well by balancing the weight between the heels and the balls of the feet. I've seen various versions of this kind of instruction -- "spread the tarsal bones wider, apply more weight/pressure on the K1 point, treat the big toe, K1 point and the center of the heel as 3 nails you've dug into the earth and so on". 

FWIW, in my experience (and I've been doing this for more than 20 years now) -- the best way to stand in wuji is when you are neither falling forward nor backward -- and your weight simply falls through to the ground. The more important thing to watch out for in wuji stance is really about suspending the crown point, tucking the chin slightly,  leaning the torso slightly forward,  and letting the chest muscles sink downward. Another thing is to not let your toes splay out -- keep the toes perpendicular to each other or even better, slightly splayed inward. 

 

I think freeform elaborated on the why regards the dantien, but in any event, a physical stretch is a good thing for beginners....the toes you refer to for example, are key in physically stretching open another point im sure you know  Most people are extremely tight and can certainly do with the tension...Id hazard a guess you are familiar with the drumskin concept

[dwai]

13 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I think freeform elaborated on the why regards the dantien, but in any event, a physical stretch is a good thing for beginners....the toes you refer to for example, are key in physically stretching open another point im sure you know  Most people are extremely tight and can certainly do with the tension...Id hazard a guess you are familiar with the drumskin concept

There’s a lot of mythology around “stretching” and the “drumskin” concept. If you’re referring to the taiji classic - it has less to do with the physical body and more to do with Qi itself, and the surface tension of the energy field (like the surface tension of an inflated ball). Is that what you were referring to? 
 

Yes stretching is important, but it is not a physical/muscular stretching as I know it. It happens as a result of qi. Beginners can’t really achieve that kind of stretch — so it’s better to learn to release and learn to sink the Qi to the dantien (and no, dantien doesn’t need to be created - only identified via proper posture and relaxed focus of the mind).  

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

There’s a lot of mythology around “stretching” and the “drumskin” concept. If you’re referring to the taiji classic - it has less to do with the physical body and more to do with Qi itself, and the surface tension of the energy field (like the surface tension of an inflated ball). Is that what you were referring to? 
 

Yes stretching is important, but it is not a physical/muscular stretching as I know it. It happens as a result of qi. Beginners can’t really achieve that kind of stretch — so it’s better to learn to release and learn to sink the Qi to the dantien (and no, dantien doesn’t need to be created - only identified via proper posture and relaxed focus of the mind).  

 

Im referring to the notion that the body has layers, and for beginners, stretching everything open (physically)  is important. From what I gather, the physical opening is the beginning stages...the rest comes later...

 

Who ever said the dantien needed to be "created" ? There's a massive difference between creation, and consolidation  

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Im referring to the notion that the body has layers, and for beginners, stretching everything open (physically)  is important. From what I gather, the physical opening is the beginning stages...the rest comes later...

better to learn to release and sink the Qi first. The stretching will come on its own when the Qi starts to radiate out from the dantien (imho). Beginners don’t really know how to be subtle with their bodies (unless they’re really gifted or physically very weak). 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Who ever said the dantien needed to be "created" ? There's a massive difference between creation, and consolidation  

Good, but there are many proponents of “the dantien needs to be created” too  

[Earl Grey]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

One last piece of friendly advise, and then I’ll leave you in the good hands of the residents experts here…  

Is someone counting how many are here? We can finally know the answer to the age old question about how many are needed to screw in the damned lightbulb.

[zerostao]

14 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Is someone counting how many are here? We can finally know the answer to the age old question about how many are needed to screw in the damned lightbulb.

I lost count long ago. 

Why do you think there are so many differing views from 'the experts' ?