Why do Daoist refuse to accept that nei dan(alchemy) is just another path to achieving samadhi(emptiness). Same way zen, samatha(jhana), kundalini yoga, anapanasati or patanjali yoga. Is it becuz of the energetic manipulation and secrecy?

[Asher Topaz]

I started reading taoist yoga and i must say all the nei dan information dont look like instructions to me. They look like biographical information of the alchemical changes of the energy body as one cultivates towards samadhi. There are too much steps and processes to be aware of that I believe alchemy infromation was more like sign posts that your on the right track rather than steps to actually follow. I mean there are easier ways like anapanasati and skeleton visualization from the buddha or samatha(concentration) practices in general. Instead of the risky practice that is alchemy. And yes you can not achieve samadhi without alchemical changes happening inside you. Else it would be false samadhi. Nan Hua Chin said that samadhi without change in your body is a false teaching that has infected buddhism especially zen. He encourages people to learn about alchemy only to use it as a referral that they are on the right track rather than an instruction manual. His book Tao & Longevity: Mind-Body Transformation shows how alchemical changes happen in the body using practices like anapanasati from the buddha. He says its based on the rule of the dao that extreme yin gives birth to yang. So the stillness from anapanasati where at some point you slow down to the point of having your breath, pulse and thoughts stop(hsi),  gives birth to the yang chi being born. No need for all the alchemical jargon just slow down and become still and the internal alchemy will take place. its like our bodies mimicking creation. Where from wuji came taiji and from taiji came yang chi of heaven. The secret of immortality. It has also been said in yoga that physical immortals are in samadhi 24/7 hence they are constantly in touch with the yang qi of heaven. So if alchemy is just another way to samadhi or wuji why do Daoist treat it like its some super secret when there are even safer and less cumbersome ways of getting to samadhi. After all the emptiness is called nirvikalpa samadhi in other traditions. 

[Cleansox]

25 minutes ago, Asher Topaz said:

 

So if alchemy is just another way to samadhi or wuji why do Daoist treat it like its some super secret when there are even safer and less cumbersome ways of getting to samadhi. 

True. If all methods are equal, one should choose the safe and easy way. 

[idquest]

In my current experience, alchemical daoism is indeed related to tantra and samadhi; and perhaps it even originates from early 1st millenial tantra tradition. Having said that, there is specific value in daoism that I can't see in other systems - alchemical daoism seems like more disciplined way to access and release all bodily energies from gross to subtle. As opposed to many yogic systems that are pretty laid back in this regard and mainly strive to move energy to the head right a\way.

[MIchael80]

Because ancient approach to neidan is not about samadhi. 

It is not about realizing the dao but about repairing the dao within a person by creating the pre-heaven elixir (re-unification of xing and ming) and only that leads to the neidan effects....

....People who achieve samadhi are not living hundreds of years nor are they healthy so not much transformation of the body has taken place.

 

There is no book that talks about the ancient approach of neidan. 

 

Freeform has also pointed out that in his neidan lineage samadhi is used to further the whole process by using "substances" that can only be accessed in samadhi...but samadhi is not an end goal nor does everything happen on its  own. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by MIchael80

[Maddie]

What exactly is the Taoist niedan process? I hear it spoken about a lot without hearing what it is.

[Earl Grey]

When people like @freeform and @senseless virtue or I see things like this, expect at the very least a question clarifying what you mean because this sounds more like a fundamental misunderstanding of both approaches, not to mention the listless different systems within both Daoist and Buddhist schools themselves.  

[XianGong]

Samadhi is not actually a high achievement or anything. It is pretty normal and common.

[Asher Topaz]

22 minutes ago, XianGong said:

Samadhi is not actually a high achievement or anything. It is pretty normal and common.

What? Samadhi aint common. Real samadhi is hard. Very few people get real samadhi. There are the 4 form samadhis and the 4 formless samadhis. Most people dont get to the third samadhi of the form realm Talkless of the formless real. However in samadhi xing and ming go together. U cant get real samadhi(xing) without alchemical transformation(ming). 

[XianGong]

12 minutes ago, Asher Topaz said:

What? Samadhi aint common. Real samadhi is hard. Very few people get real samadhi. There are the 4 form samadhis and the 4 formless samadhis. Most people dont get to the third samadhi of the form realm Talkless of the formless real. However in samadhi xing and ming go together. U cant get real samadhi(xing) without alchemical transformation(ming). 

You wrote Samadhi (emptiness), Samadhi is the ability of absorption in meditation.
It is common.

[Earl Grey]

21 minutes ago, Asher Topaz said:

What? Samadhi aint common. Real samadhi is hard. Very few people get real samadhi. There are the 4 form samadhis and the 4 formless samadhis. Most people dont get to the third samadhi of the form realm Talkless of the formless real. However in samadhi xing and ming go together. U cant get real samadhi(xing) without alchemical transformation(ming). 

[silent thunder]

One source, many names.

One source, many experiences.

 

We all experience from the center of our own awareness.

 

Like the hub of a wheel with many spokes, all paths begin from, rotate about and return to the still void dao.

[Earl Grey]

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Asher Topaz said:

What? Samadhi aint common. Real samadhi is hard. Very few people get real samadhi. There are the 4 form samadhis and the 4 formless samadhis. Most people dont get to the third samadhi of the form realm Talkless of the formless real. However in samadhi xing and ming go together. U cant get real samadhi(xing) without alchemical transformation(ming). 

 

Can you tell me more about "xing" and "ming" and how these are accomplished?

[Asher Topaz]

3 hours ago, dmattwads said:

What exactly is the Taoist niedan process? I hear it spoken about a lot without hearing what it is.

Its very hard to explain as there are lots of things about it. But the most common premise is the goal of achieving immortality through the refinement of jing to chi to and shen to emptiness. Going from a post heavenly state to a pre heavenly state.

[Asher Topaz]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

 

Can you tell me more about "xing" and "ming" and how these are accomplished?

Xing has to do with consciousness. Realizing the emptiness is xing.Dhayana absorptions is xing. Taoist believe most meditation are about consciousness. They also believe you cant achieve or stabilise xing without ming. Ming has to do with the alchemical transformation of jing to chi to shen. However I believe that dhyana/jhana is not possible without ming happening. As you meditate on your breath I believe over time alchemical changes happen inside you to let you achieve those absorptions. Thats y u feel physical bliss in jhana.Thats jing turning to chi. By second dhayna chi turns to shen. By third dhyana shen turns to emptiness. Fourth dhyana is beginning of the formless realms of emptiness. But taoist believe ming can only be accomplished through actively manipulating the alchemical process. That it doesnt happen on its own. 

[Maddie]

2 hours ago, Asher Topaz said:

Xing has to do with consciousness. Realizing the emptiness is xing.Dhayana absorptions is xing. Taoist believe most meditation are about consciousness. They also believe you cant achieve or stabilise xing without ming. Ming has to do with the alchemical transformation of jing to chi to shen. However I believe that dhyana/jhana is not possible without ming happening. As you meditate on your breath I believe over time alchemical changes happen inside you to let you achieve those absorptions. Thats y u feel physical bliss in jhana.Thats jing turning to chi. By second dhayna chi turns to shen. By third dhyana shen turns to emptiness. Fourth dhyana is beginning of the formless realms of emptiness. But taoist believe ming can only be accomplished through actively manipulating the alchemical process. That it doesnt happen on its own. 

 

I find the concept interesting but I think the reason I ultimately went the Buddhist route is because the Buddhist route is well explained and I never could figure out how to actually go about the Taoist route. Do you know where to find resources on how to actually accomplish this process?

[Earl Grey]

32 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I find the concept interesting but I think the reason I ultimately went the Buddhist route is because the Buddhist route is well explained and I never could figure out how to actually go about the Taoist route. Do you know where to find resources on how to actually accomplish this process?

Just read this thread and don’t let the OP confuse you further with his conjecture.

 

 

[MIchael80]

3 hours ago, Asher Topaz said:

Xing has to do with consciousness. Realizing the emptiness is xing.Dhayana absorptions is xing. Taoist believe most meditation are about consciousness. They also believe you cant achieve or stabilise xing without ming. Ming has to do with the alchemical transformation of jing to chi to shen. However I believe that dhyana/jhana is not possible without ming happening. As you meditate on your breath I believe over time alchemical changes happen inside you to let you achieve those absorptions. Thats y u feel physical bliss in jhana.Thats jing turning to chi. By second dhayna chi turns to shen. By third dhyana shen turns to emptiness. Fourth dhyana is beginning of the formless realms of emptiness. But taoist believe ming can only be accomplished through actively manipulating the alchemical process. That it doesnt happen on its own. 

No and no.

 

All these terms are very well defined within true neidan lineages. 

Xing is yuan shen 

Ming is yuan jing/chi

 

In neidan you only work with pre-heaven substances....if you work with jing and chi and shen you are still in the preparation phase and actual alchemy has not started yet.

 

Earl grey is spot on here. 😊

[Asher Topaz]

2 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

No and no.

 

All these terms are very well defined within true neidan lineages. 

Xing is yuan shen 

Ming is yuan jing/chi

 

In neidan you only work with pre-heaven substances....if you work with jing and chi and shen you are still in the preparation phase and actual alchemy has not started yet.

 

Earl grey is spot on here. 😊

Yeah thanks for the correction. I made a mistake. Yes alchemy deals with pre natal only while qi gong and nei gong deal with post natal. However whats your opinion of samadhi/dhyana and alchemy. I believe they achieve the same thing. In the shurangama sutra where buddha communicates with students he lists ways in which people achieve immortality and samadhi was one of them. People who have achieved samadhi and are able to hold on to it which transforms their chi channels. Also alchemy was among. They called it movement and cessation. Qigong and stillness cultivation. There were also other methods like swallowing saliva, herbs, medicines and minerals. Although buddha considered it a wrong path since they did not cultivate their true nature (xing).

[Asher Topaz]

16 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

Because ancient approach to neidan is not about samadhi. 

It is not about realizing the dao but about repairing the dao within a person by creating the pre-heaven elixir (re-unification of xing and ming) and only that leads to the neidan effects....

....People who achieve samadhi are not living hundreds of years nor are they healthy so not much transformation of the body has taken place.

 

There is no book that talks about the ancient approach of neidan. 

 

Freeform has also pointed out that in his neidan lineage samadhi is used to further the whole process by using "substances" that can only be accessed in samadhi...but samadhi is not an end goal nor does everything happen on its  own. 

Wrong. In the shurangama sutra buddha talks about people who achieve immortality using mental concentration(samadhi).Other methods are listed like wai dan in the form of drugs, diet and minerals. Also alchemey and qigong was listed. Including mantras, spells swallowing saliva or absorbing energy from stars. All lead to immortality.

[Earl Grey]

12 minutes ago, Asher Topaz said:

Wrong. In the shurangama sutra buddha talks about people who achieve immortality using mental concentration(samadhi).Other methods are listed like wai dan in the form of drugs, diet and minerals. Also alchemey and qigong was listed. Including mantras, spells swallowing saliva or absorbing energy from stars. All lead to immortality.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/dunning-kruger-effect

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Earl Grey

[johndoe2012]

All paths are not the same.

 

Anapanasati does not lead to creation of the golden elixir which Nei dan does.

 

It might lead to embryonic breathing but I find flying phoenix qigong leads to that on its own without focusing on the breath.

 

It is true that Anapanasati transforms the body due to the qi changes but I don't think the changes are identical to Nei dan.

 

Anapanasati and zuowang are more similar.

Edited October 11, 2021 by johndoe2012

[Asher Topaz]

2 minutes ago, johndoe2012 said:

All paths are not the same.

 

Anapanasati does not lead to creation of the golden elixir which Nei dan does.

 

It might lead to embryonic breathing but I find flying phoenix qigong leads to that on its own without focusing on the breath.

 

It is true that Anapanasati transforms the body due to the qi changes but I don't think the changes are identical to Nei dan.

 

Anapanasati and zuowang are more similar.

Its not the anapanasati itself its the dhyana absorptions. You can not achieve and stabilize them without alchemical transformations. thats y even buddha talked about people following a wrong path of using samadhi to achieve immortality in the surangama sutra.

[anshino23]

Asher since you refer to Master Nan Huai Chin, maybe read his own words on the topic from his famous book The Diamond Sutra Explained... 

 

Quote

In Buddhism, when we say a person has awakened to Supreme Enlightenment, achieved anuttara-samyaksambodhi, to what exactly has one awakened? It is exactly that basic substance of which all life in the universe is comprised, the dharmakaya. In the Heart Sutra, it is called, "neither beginning nor ending, pure nor impure, increasing nor decreasing." In the opening verses preceding the Diamond Sutra, it is referred to in the line, "How to achieve immortality, the indestructible vajrasattva?" The familiar line, "Not a thought arises, the entire body reveals itself" also refers to the dharmakaya. The dharmakaya has no appearance.
 

As to the perfect reward body, the rupakaya, this is the result of one's cultivation work and is very difficult to achieve. I mentioned before the thirty-two marks of a Buddha and the eighty detailed physical characteristics. The body of anyone who has succeeded in cultivation, attained the Tao, has undergone a complete physical transformation. This physical body is the reward body.
 

Why is it called the "reward body"? Actually, everyone's body is a "reward body." If throughout one's life one is very comfortable and fortunate, this is the reward of previous virtue. Others may experience a lot of pain and suffering and lead a very pitiful life. Their body is the result of non-virtuous actions in a previous life. Through cultivation work, we transform this karmic reward body.
 

In the Taoist school, they describe the process as getting rid of illness to lengthen one's life and achieving immortality. This is talking about transforming the reward body. Achieving the perfect reward body is gaining complete liberation, changing mortal bones into immortal bones and gaining every kind of super power.
 

This is extremely difficult to achieve. The perfect reward body is very difficult to cultivate. The Taoist cultivation, opening qi mai, as well as Esoteric cultivation, opening the three channels and seven chakras, both start from the reward body.

Samatha and samapatti (stopping and introspection), the Pure Land practice of reciting the Buddha's name and vipassana meditation are all examples of practices which mainly cultivate the dharmakaya. When one cultivates to the point where he or she has at will another body outside of this physical body, this is the sambogakaya or transformation body functioning. This is a very basic overview of the three bodies.
 

The average person who practices Buddhist or Taoist cultivation works on the dharmakaya.
 

The Esoteric school emphasizes the achievement of the three bodies because only when one achieves the three kayas has one successfully completed the Path. This is also called completion in one lifetime. "In one lifetime," means in this one lifetime to settle the question of life and death, to succeed at achieving the three bodies. In theory, this can be done, but in actuality, it is of the utmost difficulty. One must achieve perfection of vinaya (discipline), samadhi and wisdom as well as completely transform this physical body of four elements born of one's parents. Only this can be called completion in one lifetime.

 

[Asher Topaz]

2 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

Asher since you refer to Master Nan Huai Chin, maybe read his own words on the topic from his famous book The Diamond Sutra Explained... 

 

 

So how does one get the reward body(rupakaya) in buddhism. What cultivation techniques is he refering to. Cause master nan haui chin is not a fan of the taoist approach of nei dan. He always emphasis emptiness meditation and says zen cultivators are more on track than taoist cultivators.