Why do Daoist refuse to accept that nei dan(alchemy) is just another path to achieving samadhi(emptiness). Same way zen, samatha(jhana), kundalini yoga, anapanasati or patanjali yoga. Is it becuz of the energetic manipulation and secrecy?

[XianGong]

People are being too obsessed with their bodies in this thread. Body is impermanent.
Click me anywhere where you are able to see any single immortal "body". It is just as real as pink unicorns flying around.
Everyone who has lived in the past = died.

Everyone.

Edited October 11, 2021 by XianGong

[XianGong]

Just now, Vinh Ott said:

i wouldnt make such claims the world is big and weird . its defenitly not uncommon to hear a daoist master reach an older age while buddhists sometimes dont life long considering(id make that claim)the standard how that looks at the edge of the distribution i cant say i am certain though that what a culture strives for matters.

 

Hear something somewhere, is not how you talk online or in person.
I hear pink unicorns flying, can u see that?

There are a lot of people in the caucasian mountains who live to 120, without ever hearing about any kind of Dao nonsense, or doing any kind of Qi exercise, or any meditation in their life, ever.

[XianGong]

2 minutes ago, Vinh Ott said:

i mean there is certainly something real through which the myth of the pink unicorn originated reality is just most of the time not exactly our concepts but concepts are always based on reality.

Oh, so now pink unicorns are real, that was fast.

[XianGong]

30 minutes ago, Vinh Ott said:

didnt claim that merely claiming that the ability to arrange a donkey a horn and add the color pink is something you can do and reality posses the capacity for that even if only in your mind. or if your interested in its plastic brothers/sisters thats an option too. 

Well, let's discuss it. How do you think Pink Unicorns came to be and Why?

[XianGong]

8 minutes ago, Vinh Ott said:

maybe a rhino with skin disease and a lot of exageration.

Do you think it is Rhino who contracted rare skin disease and then shit so hard, it thinned out to look more like a horse?

Have you ever heard of ancient priests performing rituals to crossbreed different species?

Did you see a picture of Sphinx? Minotaur?

[XianGong]

1 hour ago, Vinh Ott said:

i think you missed the joke

Did not miss it, it is right here.

[XianGong]

12 hours ago, Vinh Ott said:

whatever you say.my point is id rather go to a doctor to be treated for bodily illness than to a physcist although both have there value.the all is equal for every purpose approach just doesnt work for such things.similarly if immortality is my goal id rather look in a society obsessed with it not implying you should under any and every circumstances.

I mean if you want immortality, first find an immortal. As you can't find it, your search is just to waste time.

 

How about starting with newbies exercises like few hours of Zhan Zhuang a day and don't think about any immortality in the next 30 years?

Usually, people are obsessed with things they do not have..

[Cleansox]

2 hours ago, Vinh Ott said:

 

you can also take the blood of infants to get significantly younger(transfusion) 

And you have some published research that support this idea? 

[Master Logray]

The term of Immortal is only a translation.  The direct literal translation is Mountain Man, with extra long lifespan as one of the many abilities.  It doesn't mean having life forever.  It is generally agreed there are 5 levels of immortals.  From the 3rd level,  the earth immortals, only then gives a lifespan of a few hundred years.  Even for the highest level, which is no longer a human, can live indefinitely, but still dies in the end.

 

There are still sightings that Wudang mountain still has at least one, with the extraordinary feat of floating in air.   It is reasonable to look for them in places of myth and folklore.  Who would look for Loch Ness monster in the lake of the Central Park?

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Cleansox said:

And you have some published research that support this idea? 

Sadly (and unsurprisingly perhaps) this has been studied quite a bit in mice.

 

I’ve not read any actual studies (bores me to death) but I’ve read some articles relating the results of the studies (which admittedly could be spun in any direction).

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/feb/02/could-young-blood-stop-us-getting-old-transfusions-experiments-mice-plasma

[anshino23]

On 10/13/2021 at 10:35 AM, freeform said:

Sadly (and unsurprisingly perhaps) this has been studied quite a bit in mice.

 

I’ve not read any actual studies (bores me to death) but I’ve read some articles relating the results of the studies (which admittedly could be spun in any direction).

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/feb/02/could-young-blood-stop-us-getting-old-transfusions-experiments-mice-plasma

 

 

Yes, this is a thing. And in Silicon Valley some of the more (40-50+ years of age) prominent biohackers are having younger guys' blood tapped and then they do transfusion (usually of plasma).

 

I know this how? I am a medical doctor in the field and science of longevity (colloquially known as 'anti-aging) and endocrinology. 

 

If I'm not mistaken there was a Silicon Valley company that started offering so-called young blood transfusions. 

[anshino23]

@Vinh Ott

 

As for extending lifespan this is really a big topic. I have done a whole presentation on it in fact and doing research at the moment formulating a thesis that hormones play a critical role in maintaining the high-level functional ability and also have age-reversible effects on the epigenetic level. That said, there is a general consensus in the scientific community that aging comprises the system-wide decline of multiple systems in the body along with a decreased reproductive capability. Most research is targeted towards one of the 9 hallmarks of aging, a concept which was launched by López-Otín et al. in 2013 which describes changes that occur with age. These consist of genomic instability, telomere attrition, epigenetic alterations, loss of proteostasis, deregulated nutrient sensing, mitochondrial dysfunction, cellular senescence, stem cell exhaustion, and altered intracellular communication.

 

Mind you I am just extrapolating what we know from research and applying it to meditation and Daoist methodology to give an educated guess on how from a scientific angle meditation and Daoist disciplines could indeed help lead to longevity and extended lifespan. For instance, we already know from research that meditation (mindfulness meditation mind you, and not Daoist meditation) has a protective effect on telomeres (through an increase in telomerase activity and found longer telomeres in blood cells), so that is already two targets (epigenetics and telomere attrition). See more research on that here. 

 

Additionally, we know physical exercise including cardiorespiratory fitness and resistance exercise has positive effects on deregulated nutrient sensing and mitochondrial dysfunction. We know that many Daoist disciplines include physical exercise and also dietary changes as part and parcel of Yang Sheng Fa or 'Healthy Living Principles' and thus indirectly affect longevity targets that way (if followed, mind you). Most people that practice the Daoist arts also usually abstain from alcohol and cigarettes, the overuse of both which are highly correlated with poor health outcomes. 

 

I could extrapolate and imagine that as you move through the Sinew-Changing Classic, or the Yi Jin Jing, in the correct manner and the sinew channels have been built, the functional capacity then improves of the physical body including organ health which reflects in heightened energy levels and clarity of thinking. I would imagine one would see microvascular changes that allow for better blood flow which increases nutrient uptake and insulin sensitivity, known factors in overall health. Along with this, I could imagine increased vagus nerve activity as parasympathetic activity is increased as a result of 'Sinking Qi' and stabilization of attention and reduced mind-wandering (which deactivates the default mode network in the brain) along with concomitant increased concentration which activates the ACC (anterior cingulate cortex) facilitating heightened brain-function. 

 

If we move further and extrapolate on how the targets of 'stem cell exhaustion, cellular senescence, and altered intracellular communication' is affected, I would imagine the Bone Marrow Washing or Xi Sui Jing would be where these things are affected, directly impacting the Jing level through the Marrow, affecting stem cell production. I would also imagine that the XSJ could directly affect cellular senescence through a similar mechanism if it acts on the Jing, as people mention 'age-reversal' effects at that stage of the practice including but not limited to increased hormone production and thus increased strength, vitality, virility, and strength. 

 

Beyond this level, I am sure we move beyond the realm of molecular and cellular mechanistic science such as with the creation of the light body, turning the body into light, creating body doubles and appearing two places at once, moving through walls and so forth, and it is certainly above my paygrade to make an educated guess on how that would happen. 

[Eduardo]

The jing is depleted, the chi is also decaying.

There comes a time when it is not possible to recover the levels of youth even when they are supplemented.
I suspect that the pineal gland functions as a kind of conductor with a built-in key for when to die.

Finding out can open a new dimension in neuroendocrine research.

[Cleansox]

@anshino23Have you looked in to the anti-inflammatory reflex pathway and the glymphatic system? Daoist practices activate these a lot, through multiple physiological mechanisms. 

[Bindi]

Different systems start in different places, like kundalini focusing on the root chakra, zen on head consciousness, and non-dualism on changing mental attitude, while neidan starts with the lower dantian. Apart from anything else this starting point seems to direct the end result, IMO it’s a primary difference that makes all the difference in the world as to the ultimate value of what can be achieved. 
 

@anshino23, how the body responds to alchemy on a scientific level is a great subject to be exploring, I’ve come across a lot of personal evidence that chakras are related to the glands, and improving chakra/gland function seems likely to be a key area for cultivating longevity. 

[exorcist_1699]

Both schools believe that the basic life energy  is hidden in emptiness everywhere , only that  Daoism calls it pre-heavenly  qi (  a trinity of jing ,qi  and shen )   , and  Buddhism calls it the Buddha Heart .  The gap between the human mind and the Buddha Heart  / pre-heavenly  is  just too huge for people to  cross,  so these two schools develop  respective ways to make it easier . In the case of Daoism , because the pre-heavenly qi  is already embodied  in our body ,  although in its deficient , split form ,  if people follow the jing=> qi=> shen way  to return and take control of the pre-heavenlt qi , they will be free  .  Which is also easier compared with the Buddhist way ( Zen's ) for the Daoist one gets some stepping stone, say qi at the abdomen area,  clear and easy to start .   Of course , in this process , people  have to  ignore the repeated interventions of a  karma- burden  spirit,  whom people always mistake  as their egos  yet are  always in control ,  and the power of the analytic minds ,  their combination is so powerful that it is extremely difficult to be got rid of .

Edited October 16, 2021 by exorcist_1699

[anshino23]

16 hours ago, Cleansox said:

@anshino23Have you looked in to the anti-inflammatory reflex pathway and the glymphatic system? Daoist practices activate these a lot, through multiple physiological mechanisms. 

 

I am not familiair with the "anti-inflammatory reflex pathway" in scientific nomenclature. Are you referring to the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway? If so no, it is not one of the main targets I look at in my own research. Most of the other targets above-mentioned, when improved, also reduce whole-body inflammatory signaling. Improving sleep by itself improves a multitude of cellular functions. As for the glymphatic system, it is not something I have studied in relation to the Daoist arts, though I am familiar with its relation to waste clearance during sleep and transport functions which both have relation to degenerative cognitive diseases. 

 

In which way have you found the activation of the above-mentioned pathways/systems through Daoist practices - and are you familiar with scientific research that supports the connection?

[Cleansox]

17 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

I am not familiair with the "anti-inflammatory reflex pathway" in scientific nomenclature. Are you referring to the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway? 

Yes, and it goes by both names in articles, just to confuse things. 

17 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

In which way have you found the activation of the above-mentioned pathways/systems through Daoist practices - and are you familiar with scientific research that supports the connection?

Yes, I teach this subject at a medical university so I am familiar with the relevant references. 

[Dreamwalker]

Just adding my 2 cents. This is information that I learned from my grandmaster during a meditation retreat. There are 8 levels of samadhi (jhana), 4 in the form realm and 4 in the formless realm. But before getting into the jhanas, there are 4 levels in the desire realm. Different meditation methods all lead to samadhi but gives different results depending on the approach. 

 

Nei Dan makes the body very strong and healthy. Wai Dan (as in the meditation… not ingesting any physical elixirs) is for attaining siddhi’s. Both daoist methods will lead to the 4th jhana at most. Chan meditation is for removing the root cause of suffering, negative emotions, and cultivates wisdom. Chan will lead to the 8th jhana. However, Chan is a very difficult and slow process compared to the 2 Daoist methods.

 

No matter the method, the minimum requirement to reach the 1st jhana is 6 hours of straight sitting per day (even in nei Dan, it takes minimum 6 hours to form the elixir). Certain physical and psychological changes will occur in each stage and that is the indicator of success. 

 

As for whether Chan meditation produces physical changes in the body, it does but not on the same level as Nei Dan. A Chan practitioner can still get sick whereas a Nei Dan practitioner who reached the immortal stage won’t. In terms of health and energy, the Doaist approach is superior. In terms of meditative states, Buddhism is superior.

[Dreamwalker]

On 10/18/2021 at 12:18 PM, Vinh Ott said:

if this is not something that bothers you and you have the time to answer this ,what is your grandmasters opinion on the state of ceasation of perception and feelings or simplified the 9th jhana.i am a bit bothered if something only mentions the 8th afterall buddha learned the 5-8 jhana from hinduist teachers and after attaining them realized they do not lead to nibbana so forgive my concerns.

I’m not aware of the 9th jhana because he never covered it, but if you can phrase your question in Chinese, I can ask him. I don’t speak Mandarin so it’s hard to ask questions that are difficult to translate.

[Klinsly]

I don't remember the exact quote but I recently read a book about Daskalos a Christian mystic with all the bells and whistles of a highest level yogi and Saint. He said specifically regarding eastern religion and  more specifically emptiness that it was missing the point.  the real point to him that Christ opened was that it's not about emptying yourself into God but rather becoming and individualized God selfhood being aka a cocreator with God. You're meant to keep your individual self but essentially become  an individualized ray of God which is the point of incarnation to gain God consciousness but be your own being who is self aware and has free will unlike the arch angels.

[awaken]

樓主似乎誤解了道家修練和搬運法，真正的道家修練是如同周易參同契與悟真篇所說，並非和佛家的四禪八定有所區別，相反的，是同一個路線。

但是搬運法盜用了道家修練的術語，扭曲道家修練術語的內涵，把道家修練扭曲為氣功修練，有許多名詞，在搬運法和真實的道家修練中，是完全不同的意義。

 

真實的道家修練，和佛家修練是一樣的，都是達到虛空定的環境之後，才能產生真人的演化。這一點請大家可以去參考楞伽經，並且請大家看透楞嚴經的虛假。

 

楞嚴經所說的內容，特別是後半部，都是吹牛的，瞎扯的，無中生有的。

而楞伽經所說的內容，雖然有所殘缺，但是卻是真實的，特別是在意生身的部分。

 

 

[exorcist_1699]

Daoist alchemy does provide a way similar to Zen  . It is a way looks close to Zen's yet without  its defect of  a likely submission to just achieving  a Yin-typed of mind .  Such a way  is  always described  as  " Cultivate thing on the upper level,  and  simultaneously sublimate things , jing and qi , on the lower levels " ( "修上關, 蓋下關" ) .  That means instead of following the traditional way of  accumulating jing first , then to its fullness , you jump to qi ;   and when qi is full cultivated and accumulated  , you jump over to cultivating shen.., no , you start by going straight to its very high level , shen .

Concretely speaking,  you start  by  doing  Zen-like emptied Mind cultivation , to an extent so thorough that it  can reversely  return to the jing and qi levels , and integrate them at one stroke . It  really looks like a short-cut and  something wonderful , however, people who can do it is limited to those gifted ones. " Gifted"  in the sense that they are either teenagers  or  people who thoroughly understand the delicacy of  what the emptied Mind  is  yet without losing too much jing  when they were young.

Edited January 3, 2022 by exorcist_1699

[awaken]

5 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Daoist alchemy does provide a way similar to Zen  . It is a way looks close to Zen's yet without  its defect of  a likely submission to just achieving  a Yin-typed of mind .  Such a way  is  always described  as  " Cultivate thing on the upper level,  and  simultaneously sublimate things , jing and qi , on the lower levels " ( "修上關, 蓋下關" ) .  That means instead of following the traditional way of  accumulating jing first , then to its fullness , you jump to qi ;   and when qi is full cultivated  , you jump over to cultivating shen..;   no, you start by going straight to its very high level , shen .

Concretely speaking,  you start  by  doing  Zen-like emptied Mind cultivation , to an extent so thorough that it  can reversely  return to the jing and qi levels , and integrate them at one stroke . It  really looks like a short-cut and  something wonderful , however, people who can do it is limited to those gifted ones. " Gifted"  in the sense that they are either teenagers  or  people thoroughly understand the delicacy of  what the emptied Mind  is  yet without losing too much jing  when they were young.

 

黃帝內經講『獨立守神』，守的是什麼神，就是周易參同契講的陽神陰神，陽神就是日魂，陰神就是月魄，就是悟真篇講的烏肝與兔髓，因此練烏肝兔髓基本上就是練神的開始。

 

 

[exorcist_1699]

12 hours ago, awaken said:

 

黃帝內經講『獨立守神』，守的是什麼神，就是周易參同契講的陽神陰神，陽神就是日魂，陰神就是月魄，就是悟真篇講的烏肝與兔髓，因此練烏肝兔髓基本上就是練神的開始。

 

 

 

Thanks your comment .