Why do Daoist refuse to accept that nei dan(alchemy) is just another path to achieving samadhi(emptiness). Same way zen, samatha(jhana), kundalini yoga, anapanasati or patanjali yoga. Is it becuz of the energetic manipulation and secrecy?

[johndoe2012]

Maybe you should read 'Internal Alchemy' by Livia Kohn.

 

There is a chapter on history and early lineages by Guangbao Zhang.

[johndoe2012]

25 minutes ago, Asher Topaz said:

So how does one get the reward body(rupakaya) in buddhism. What cultivation techniques is he refering to. Cause master nan haui chin is not a fan of the taoist approach of nei dan. He always emphasis emptiness meditation and says zen cultivators are more on track than taoist cultivators.

 

I'm no expert but googling found this from dharmawheel

 

Quote

Trikaya doesn't mean three separate bodies. We'd then have three different buddhas for one buddha. The trikaya consists of the dharmakaya and the rupakaya (sambhoga & nirmana). Dharmakaya is the essence (emptiness) and rupakaya is the function (dependent origination), and they are inseparable. You can't actually have one without the others.

 

So realizing emptiness and dependent origination should result in the same transformation. I guess the focus on emptiness transforms the body in one way, the focus on dependent origination is different and results in a different transformation.

 

Depending on lineage it might involve different techniques (sutra / tantra / dzogchen).

[Asher Topaz]

12 minutes ago, johndoe2012 said:

Maybe you should read 'Internal Alchemy' by Livia Kohn.

 

There is a chapter on history and early lineages by Guangbao Zhang.

I m not against alchemy. In fact I find it fascinating that taoists shamans, sages and saints were able to discover, understand and share a logical framework for how the body can be transformed. I m saying that there are other ways to achieve immortality. Samadhi being one of them. Because in samadhi you let go of conceptions and thoughts and since you let go of all that clinging your mind body and energy are free to return to their pre heavenly state. The pre natal realm. Because the pre natal is free from all the clinging, thoughts and conceptualization of the post natal. Which is y in buddhism it is known that there are those who have held on to the samadhi state to achieve immortality because samadhi is a pre heavenly state.

[Asher Topaz]

6 minutes ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

I'm no expert but googling found this from dharmawheel

 

 

So realizing emptiness and dependent origination should result in the same transformation. I guess the focus on emptiness transforms the body in one way, the focus on dependent origination is different and results in a different transformation.

 

Depending on lineage it might involve different techniques (sutra / tantra / dzogchen).

Yeah thats exactly what I m saying. Emptiness is at the center of all spiritual cultivation including nei dan.And the path to emptiness leads to immortality.  And there are many traditions from buddhist to hindus to taoists. And each have thousands of lineages. I didnt even know buddhism had immortals unitl I read William Bodris and Nan huai Chin book "The World’s Best and Worst Spiritual Paths and Practice". He referred to the shurangama sutra and talked about immortals that used samadhi to ahive immortality. Then it clicked for me. That if nei dan leads to immortality and clinging unto samadhi states leads to immortality then they are probably similar in energy transformation.

[johndoe2012]

I would say clinging to samadhi is probably a sutra thing.

 

In dzogchen the key is relaxing at least according to ChNN.

 

Real relaxing can occur when you do guruyoga with a realized master if you ask about a specific technique.

[Cleansox]

46 minutes ago, Asher Topaz said:

 

Then it clicked for me. That if nei dan leads to immortality and clinging unto samadhi states leads to immortality then they are probably similar in energy transformation.

If... ...   Probably. 

 

What if there are differences? 

Things you do not see in translated books not exactly talking about the details that might matter? 

 

Then you will see the similarities (which are there) but not the differences. 

[XianGong]

54 minutes ago, Asher Topaz said:

I m saying that there are other ways to achieve immortality. Samadhi being one of them.

Idk, about ways to achieve immortality, and never seen a single immortal on this planet. So, any bla bla on the topic is meaningless.

But,  I know there are certain ways of achieving stupidity, lesser and greater, one of those paths is by reading drew's books.

[XianGong]

52 minutes ago, Asher Topaz said:

I didnt even know buddhism had immortals unitl I read William Bodris and Nan huai Chin book "The World’s Best and Worst Spiritual Paths and Practice". He referred to the shurangama sutra and talked about immortals that used samadhi to ahive immortality. Then it clicked for me.

IF you read more books one day you will learn that pink unicorns are actually the master race, and humanity is just slaves for pink unicorn overlords. How can you doubt what was written in the book? Critical thinking is bad, having experience is bad. Reading books is a true path of enlightenment and achieving immortal golden unicorn status.

[MIchael80]

2 hours ago, Asher Topaz said:

Wrong. In the shurangama sutra buddha talks about people who achieve immortality using mental concentration(samadhi).Other methods are listed like wai dan in the form of drugs, diet and minerals. Also alchemey and qigong was listed. Including mantras, spells swallowing saliva or absorbing energy from stars. All lead to immortality.

Well ... waidan is not drugs, minerals etc.

Waidan is the external elixir more commonly known as the philosophers stone. It is basically the same process as the internal elixir (=neidan)

 

Immortality of the physical body is no goal in neidan....it is a byproduct of correct practice of a complete method. 

 

All these things you mention are explicitly stated as not leading to neidan results (in alchemical texts) .

[Earl Grey]

My issue with this universalist approach is it’s like cross breeding a mule and a horse to get an ass. It might work in creating a hybrid being, but the result is not so great.

 

Besides: if all was equal, why do we have such varying results and deviations? 
 

Focus and master one thing before trying to amalgamate it in a way that shows no understanding of either.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Earl Grey

[Maddie]

I think for me the confusion with the Taoist method is that the label is used a lot but the methods seem to be vaguely referred to you so I don't know exactly what's happening.

  That being the case I primarily use Buddhist methods but what I've noticed through my own experience even though I haven't really read about it from Buddhist sources is all kinds of weird changes that take place in my physical body as I progress. I can feel my body purging old karma through my kidneys and several of my meridians expelled dirty cruddy Chi and I get these watery bumps along the line of the meridian. I also have electronics go haywire around me sometimes. But this is all stuff I just experienced that none of the Buddhist sources are read told me it was going to happen. 

 Recently my daughter has begun to do some of the same practices as I do and she's begun to experience some of the same effects including the weird bumps along the course of meridians and other things.

[Master Logray]

2 hours ago, Asher Topaz said:

Wrong. In the shurangama sutra buddha talks about people who achieve immortality using mental concentration(samadhi).Other methods are listed like wai dan in the form of drugs, diet and minerals. Also alchemey and qigong was listed. Including mantras, spells swallowing saliva or absorbing energy from stars. All lead to immortality.

 

I believe the Buddha talks about immortality for the soul.  Buddhists don't stress on the body which is merely a vehicle.  And I don't think this Buddhist treatise mentioned wai dan?  and swallowing saliva?   These techniques most likely are later than the Sutra in the timeline.

 

Taoist cultivation can be grouped under 2 categories, the gradual and the instant.  The gradual methods are what you see currently, step by step, having levels, systematic, usually start with Ming training and gradually increase the Xing proportion.  Sometimes it is call the Yin and Yang double restorations.

 

The instant method, or the clear and quiet method, may be similar to what you want to know.  It starts off from "emptiness" - conscious training, when there is a result, then turn to Ming approach.  The instant part refers to the speed of the Ming sequence.  The result is very fast, days for getting the small medicine, 10 years or so to finish the else.

 

The advantages are safer and faster, the normal Ming MCO approach is rather perilous and need very good coaching.  This instant method also need genuine teacher but the student can rely on himself to solve many of the hurdles.   Some people may be able to tackle the Xing training easily, thereby a double speed up.

 

The disadvantage is it requires someone very good endowed.  The Xing training could take a very long time without seeing any tangible result or benefits, very demoralizing.  It requires a natural or follow the flow approach which is extremely difficult.  So this path is not taken even by Immortals. 

 

In short, there is no way for a pure Xing approach to transform into an immortal. The power of the mind is limited. Anyone accomplishes the Xing, still has to start with Ming again.  It is just like a professor going back to study from primary school again.  He would be different from his fellow classmates and should be able to jump grades quickly.

 

 

[Asher Topaz]

In the shurangama sutra he was referring to physical immortality. He considered it a deviation from the path. As such individuals ignored cultivation of nature and focused on life. Here is an excerpt from the sutra

The Ten Categories in the Realm of Seers (Rishis)

Ananda, there are men who, instead of cultivating the Samadhi of right Bodhi, practice (immortality) wrongly according to their false thoughts, thus preserving their thinking and bodies; they are fond of living in mountains, groves and uninhabitable places.

There are ten classes of them.

        Ananda, those men who diet (specially) to preserve their bodies and thereby live long through dieting, are called earthbound seers.
        Those who take herbs and fruits to preserve their bodies and thereby live long through taking medicine, are called flying seers.
        Those who take mineral products to preserve their bodies and thereby live long by means of alchemy, are called unhindered roaming seers.
        Those who regulate their (organic) functions to preserve their bodies and thereby live long by means of proper breathing, are called immaterial seers.
        Those who make good use of controlling their saliva to preserve their bodies and thereby live long by means of their glowing spirituality, are called heavenly seers.
        Those who feed on the vital principle of nature to preserve the essence of form, and thereby live long by absorbing natural purity, are called all-entering seers.
        Those who use incantations to preserve their bodies and thereby live long by means of occultism, are called seers of the (lesser) Tao.
        Those who concentrate on their thoughts to preserve their bodies and thereby live long by means of mental concentration are called illuminating seers.
        Those who practice the integration of (the positive and negative) principles to preserve their bodies and thereby live long by means of the spiritual harnessing power (of yoga) are called spiritual seers.
        Those who practice sublimation of their bodies and thereby live long by means of spiritual awareness are seers of the highest order.

Ananda, these men regulate their minds but do not practice the right Bodhi, and live for perhaps a thousand and ten thousand years; they live on high mountains or (desert) islands and cut off all worldly connections.

 

Also xing and ming lead to samadhi. However Bodri and master Nan have said you can go far in samadhi attainments faster than your body can trasnform.
 

 

 

 

[Asher Topaz]

6 minutes ago, Vinh Ott said:

i tend to to say that  abosption unto something can be done with any object and the effect of the object through which dhyana is achieved differ by a wide margin it seems that a more intense object gets me more closer to the pure principle so when doing the light jhanas as an example a brigter object to stare at during the initial sign aquisition gives well a more clearer sign due to that principle being very dominant in a sense it simply blends out other objects, another example for the effect of diffrent objects to be absorbed into is the things it seems to grant as an example when using a the classical fire kasina even in the lower jhanas one is able to manipulate heat to some extend this may manifest as increased body temperature with the higher jhanas allowing also for circumvention of restrictions i find the 6th jhana expecial powerful for this if one keeps a sort of duality between form and formless dont get me wrong that jhanas full extend is indeed formless. it is also possible for a combination of objects to get absorbed into like deity visualisation tends to do or allot of tantric approaches afterall nothing in nature is ever just one object daoist approaches seem to focus on health related objects or objects that when used can lead to good health.as an example the light of the fourth jhana can be used to purify the darkness of the body doing so according to sutras grant the body flexbility and things like sitting in full lotus without sleep drink food for many days straight.there is also a whole lot to mastering a jhana ike length ascending and descending order skipping over jhanas.

Yeah your referring to the visuddhimagga approach to jhana. I find it quite interesting.

 

[Maddie]

14 minutes ago, Vinh Ott said:

while samadhi may have effect on the body it depends on the object as an example when a person does anapanasati after a while he can keep listening to to breath or do many more things as an example an object(nimitta) may appear in his mind realted to the body like a cotton web or silk like feeling and meditate on that spreading it through the whole body to absorb in the cotton or other related feelings this is because this beings bodily process produces a certain pleasant sensation usable to enter the first jhana this does infact impact the body but in similar manner using other kasina related objects to be spread throught the body may not make sense at all expcially if its one not naturaly present in it in this case serious harm may occur.

 

I get this effect through mantra practice even though I didn't know that was going to happen.

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

My issue with this universalist approach is it’s like cross breeding a mule and a horse to get an ass. It might work in creating a hybrid being, but the result is not so great.

Unless one is cruising for a piece of ass? 

[anshino23]

3 hours ago, Asher Topaz said:

So how does one get the reward body(rupakaya) in buddhism. What cultivation techniques is he refering to. Cause master nan haui chin is not a fan of the taoist approach of nei dan. He always emphasis emptiness meditation and says zen cultivators are more on track than taoist cultivators.

 

Yes, in my opinion, it is because he knows how hard it is: 

 

1. To find a master

2. To find authentic methods from said master

3. To dedicate your life to the method and thereby actually achieve anything with those methods

4. To align your life fully with said path to achieve enligthenment

 

So instead, it is easier for the masses to tell them, do anapana and emptiness meditation, build merit, and you will be lead to the right teachings and the right Master... One of the late students of Master Nan Huai Chin told us all in a group he hosted 5+ years ago that one should find a Master to guide one's Path. There's a limit to how far you'll come on your own. 

 

You can try anapana by yourself. Chances are you'll never get there unless you're part of the 0.000001% percentile that just sit down dn enter samadhi and then can do the rest from there... 

[dwai]

15 hours ago, XianGong said:

Samadhi is not actually a high achievement or anything. It is pretty normal and common.

Samadhi is not a state or an achievement -- it is one's true nature. So in a sense what you state is correct -- it is the most normal, most common condition, that acts as the foundation for the infinite permutations and combinations one gets to experience.

 

In fact, there is always continuous samadhi, only it is interrupted by thoughts, emotions, and feelings. But that samadhi cannot be of any "use" to the layperson, because the layperson or even an intermediate practitioner of a relevant spiritual tradition is not aware of its existence. So long as there is the identification that, "I am the body, I am the mind, and I am the personality", it is absolutely of no use.

 

Samadhi/True Nature is always hidden in plain sight. Until the realization occurs about what samadhi actually is, it is to be sought out as a precious treasure. And even after one is able to enter samadhi via breath/mind/energetic control, its true nature may be hidden from the seeker. Two things are needed for "realization" --

• Right teaching
• Maturity of practice 

The most important is the right teaching, without which no amount of practice (even if one does so 24x7 for years at a time) is likely to bear fruit.

 

This wonderful post by @silent thunder comes to bear on the OP --

 

 

 

[XianGong]

2 hours ago, Vinh Ott said:

happy to hear normaly when wishing to enter the deep jhanas( the first one) one has to build up the 5 jhanas factors initial application  sustained appilication one pointedness joy and emotional happiness that arise from taking one thing to place his mind unto therby supressing the 5 hindrances this does not remove the 5 hindrances permanently though in short when one does wrong jhana one basicly becomes peacful because there arent as many things around . regardless of what object you take the above 5 have to be perfected for deep jhana to become possible and the 5 hindrances abandoned. in short the first jhana is overwhelming bliss and while in it it is impossible not to feel it.right jhana permanently removes the 5 hindrances when the 5 hindrances are permanently removed one has become an anagami. so in buddhist jhanas you either achieve this type of jhana or you aquire the 9th jhana which also is equivalent of anagami hood. in short the object taken in buddhist jhana is nibbana the 9th jhana is nibbana but with residue(only upon death can one be permanently in nibbana keeping ones body and nibbana are mutualy exlclusive i also dont get whats so intersting in this piece of decaying carbon) another way of seing this is letting go of something vs focusing unto thus blocking unwholsome states what is let go of ? it is aversion(to dislike what is) desire(to go for something diffrent than what is) and delusion(to ignore what is) getting absorbed in that is indeed the path to nibbana.

Yo, when writing, use paragraphs.

Like this. Also use things like , and .

[johndoe2012]

Ming then xing can be critized as being too slow and focused too much on energetics rather than consciousness.

 

Xing then Ming can lead to arrogance and dry insight where the body is not transformed. The non dualistists are famous for this and easily sniffed out if you have good intuition and sensing skills.

 

Emptiness feels bodily wise relaxed and hollow like and is safe to practice from books.

 

If merging with the Dao = goal of nei Dan means end of subject / object = non duality as your reality all the time this is no easy task. I haven't reached that yet.

[Maddie]

So is the process the MCO or Dan Tien breathing or something else. Understanding what the process is, is confusing.

[johndoe2012]

7 hours ago, Asher Topaz said:

So how does one get the reward body(rupakaya) in buddhism. What cultivation techniques is he refering to. Cause master nan haui chin is not a fan of the taoist approach of nei dan. He always emphasis emptiness meditation and says zen cultivators are more on track than taoist cultivators.

 

I found another description of the rupakaya (your form body)

 

https://kibi-edu.org/teachers/jampa-thaye/lama-jampa-thaye-an-introduction-to-mahamudra/

 

Quote

Because the nature of Buddhahood is twofold: it is the two bodies of Dharmakaya and Rupakaya, and you cannot realize that only through the recognition of the nature of mind. You need also to have the structure of the path, where there is the path of merit from the Sutras or the development and completion stage from the Tantras

 

Recognition of the nature of the mind = xing.

 

The path = transformation of the gross body = ming.

 

Tantra is a path you could follow to transform the body.

[dwai]

1 minute ago, johndoe2012 said:

Tantra is a path you could follow to transform the body.

It is also a path one could follow to transform the mind. In fact, I’d say that tantra primarily works on transforming the mind (make it transparent). Body work is merely a stepping stone towards the mind/consciousness work.

[Asher Topaz]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

It is also a path one could follow to transform the mind. In fact, I’d say that tantra primarily works on transforming the mind (make it transparent). Body work is merely a stepping stone towards the mind/consciousness work.

But doesnt meditation that leads to dhyana absorptions transform the body gradually. Like shamatha-vipassana approach. Where shamatha is like the ming of buddhism and vipassana is the xing of buddhism. Shamatha transforms the energy body due to purification of mind. In the surangama sutra buddha talks of samadhi deviations that lead to immortality to his disciple Ananda under the topic "The destinies of Immortals". 

 

"“Furthermore, Ananda, there are people who do not rely on proper enlightenment to cultivate samadhi, but cultivate in some special way that is based on their false thinking. Holding to the idea of perpetuating their physical bodies, they roam in the mountains and forests in places people do not go and become ten kinds of immortals'"

"Ananda, some living beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong with doses of medicine. When they have perfected this method of ingestion, they are known as earth-traveling immortals.
"Some of these beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through the use of grasses and herbs. When they have perfected this method of taking herbs, they are known as flying immortals.
"Some of these beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through the use of metal and stone. When they have perfected this method of transformation, they are known as roaming immortals.
"Some of these beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through movement cessation. When they have perfected their breath and essence, they are known as space-traveling immortals.
"Some beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong by using the flow of saliva. When they have perfected the virtues of this moisture, they are known as heaven-traveling immortals.
"Some beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong with the essence of sun and moon when they have perfected the inhalation of this purity, they are known as immortals of penetrating conduct.
"Some beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through mantras and prohibitions. When they have perfected these spells and Dharmas, they are known as immortals with way-conduct.
"Some beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through the use of thought-processes. When they have perfected thought and memory, they are known as immortal with illumining conduct.
"Some beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through intercourse. When they have perfected to response, they are known as immortals with essential conduct.
"Some beings with unflagging resolution make themselves strong through transformations and changes. When they have perfected their awakening, they are known as immortals of absolute conduct.
"Ananda, these are all people who smelt their minds but do not cultivate proper enlightenment. They obtain some special principle of life and can live for thousands or tens of thousands of years. They retire deep into the mountains or onto islands in the sea and cut themselves off from the human realm. However, they are still part of the turning wheel, because they flow and turn according to their false thinking and do not cultivate Samadhi. When their reward is finished, they must still return and enter the various destinies.

[dwai]

14 minutes ago, Asher Topaz said:

But doesnt meditation that leads to dhyana absorptions transform the body gradually. Like shamatha-vipassana approach. Where shamatha is like the ming of buddhism and vipassana is the xing of buddhism. Shamatha transforms the energy body due to purification of mind. In the surangama sutra buddha talks of samadhi deviations that lead to immortality to his disciple Ananda under the topic "The destinies of Immortals"

Meditation IS dhyana. The preparatory stages may/may not involve physical transformation. What is required for dhyana is stillness/stability of the body. If you read Patanjali’s yoga sutras, he defines asana as a stable physical posture.  I am not a Buddhist so can’t answer about shamata and vipassana.
 

Similar techniques are also part of (and the Buddhist versions most likely derive from) Hindu traditions, albeit not named as such, and are not given as much importance (as in Buddhism). 
 

Of course, that doesn’t mean that physical transformation doesn’t have value — in order to meditate properly the internal energies need to be transformed from kinetic (Rajas)  and slothful (Tamas) into clarity (satva). Some physical manipulation is required in order to bring that about. But what kind? Any mindfully performed repetitive action will result in meditation. So we have stories about monks who spent time quietly grinding grains in monasteries being able to attain great stillness and clarity. 
 

How someone’s constitution is, their age, etc plays a big role in what needs to happen in order to prepare for meditation.