new COVID discussion rule/s

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Trunk said:

 

HOLY MACKERAL!!,  Excellent disclaimer.  If we post one, gonna use that.

 

The seperate subsection - more of a catch all - would be Current Events.  Yeah, we could get more specific, but I think the Current Events section is a good model - not only for covid, but for Current Event kerfluffles that seem to happen every few years or so.  I like that specific permissions must be granted to see that area, so for members who just wanna see internal arts stuff, it doesn't show up in their "show new posts" list.  Not click-bait for conflict, doesn't cloud the board as much from there.

 

You could also link troubling posts to the disclaimer or provide an info link as per FB and Youtube do ... although I am loathe to suggests copying those internet giants TBH.

[zerostao]

since it's inception; no one is really using the Current Events section.

[Apech]

9 minutes ago, zerostao said:

since it's inception; no one is really using the Current Events section.

 

obviously nothing is happening

[liminal_luke]

This morning I realized why this new rule bothers me so much: my feelings are hurt.  Most people don´t realize how difficult it is, emotionally, to hold beliefs about the pandemic that are at odds with the mainstream view.  It´s freakin´ hard!  Reading the news, I´m bombarded with stories telling me that as an unvaccinated person I´m selfish and stupid, that unvaccinated people like myself are responsible for virus mutations and overcrowded hospitals and countless deaths.  Prior to Covid, I never thought of myself as someone who would carelessly kill senior citizens and the immunocompromised.  It´s been quite the adjustment to look at myself in the mirror through the eyes of media pundits -- not to mention my friends and relatives -- and see the face of a conspiracy theorist crank, and maybe even a psychopath, staring back. What happened to the nice guy that used to be me?

 

It´s against this backdrop that I´m trying, not very successfully, to assimilate this latest forum policy change.  What´s clear is that forum management has decided that people that think as I do are wrong and dangerous.  This is just one more assault in a long line of assaults, the latest takedown of my character.  

 

I recognize that my feelings are not uppermost in most people´s minds at the moment.  This policy is crafted to protect the physical health of Bums who the mods fear might make a bad decision based on something they read here.  My delicate sensibilities don´t rate given our current state of emergency.  I get it and I´ll be fine.  I´ll focus on my own good qualities as I see them and try not to care so much about what people on the internet and President Biden think of me.  Maybe I´ll take a break from the forum.  Or not.  So carry on protecting people from "misinformation."  What else can you do?  I just wanted to share a little bit more about what this is like for me.   

Edited October 26, 2021 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

9 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

This morning I realized why this new rule bothers me so much: my feelings are hurt.  Most people don´t realize how difficult it is, emotionally, to hold beliefs about the pandemic that are at odds with the mainstream view.  It´s freakin´ hard!  Reading the news, I´m bombarded with stories telling me that as an unvaccinated person I´m selfish and stupid, that unvaccinated people like myself are responsible for virus mutations and overcrowded hospitals and countless deaths.  Prior to Covid, I never thought of myself as someone who would carelessly kill senior citizens and the immunocompromised.  It´s been quite the adjustment to look at myself in the mirror through the eyes of media pundits -- not to mention my friends and relatives -- and see the face of a conspiracy theorist crank, and maybe even a psychopath, staring back. What happened to the nice guy that used to be me?

 

It´s against this backdrop that I´m trying, not very successfully, to assimilate this latest forum policy change.  What´s clear is that forum management has decided that people that think as I do are wrong and dangerous.  This is just one more assault in a long line of assualts, the latest takedown of my character.  

 

I recognize that my feelings are not uppermost in most people´s minds at the moment.  This policy is crafted to protect the physical health of Bums who the mods fear might make a bad decision based on something they read here.  My delicate sensibilities don´t rate given our current state of emergency.  I get it and I´ll be fine.  I´ll focus on my own good qualities as I see them and try not to care so much on what people on the internet and President Biden think of me.  Maybe I´ll take a break from the forum.  Or not.  So carry on protecting people from "misinformation."  What else can you do?  I just wanted to share a little bit more about what this is like for me.   

 

Luke,

 

I think that this forum depends entirely on people saying honestly and genuinely what they think and feel about things.  And being able to do so.  I mean going back to core principles 'discussions on the way' between fellow travellers must be honest discussions surely?  We practice various systems in order to cultivate ourselves which means being better people in some kind of way - even if we are at odds about this we've got to be free to express ourselves.  I once knew a truly great teacher, one of the few people I've met I would call a 'master' - he was completely anti-vaccination.   I remember asking him about this and him explaining the effect of vaccines on the subtle body - that night I had a dream in which he showed me mushroom shaped beings which he told me (in the dream ) were people's energy bodies and on them were brown patches which he said were due to vaccines.  I know this is probably not your view ... and it's not mine either I take vaccines - most recently Covid but also Tetanus - and my spooky dream means nothing at all.  But then again where the fuck are we if different people can't have different views and opinions?  Is it ok for me to mention this dream and it's 'meaning' - is it ok to say some people don't want the vax?  Will the state of California put me in prison - what kind of ideological purity hell do we want anyway?

 

... I have no idea where I am going with this  just trying to be supportive of you and your presence here ... and just digging a hole ...

 

 

[zerostao]

@liminal_luke

 

Alcoholics are able to meet and discuss all things related to alcohol.

NA has the same foundation. Those that lost loved ones to violence have support groups where they can discuss the myriad issues and nuances of violent tragedy.

Covid has impacted the great majority of us, one way or another. I won't speak of personal things out here in the open---i have suffered loss and grieve.

It  was a help to me that I was allowed to confront this thing by discussing it, ---the good, bad, ugly of it---with members of this forum that I have established some level of trust with over the past 12 years.

I would have preferred the subject be allowed to continue in the ppf sections on the forums of bums, I trust, rather than out in the open.

There is a reason AA,NA, and those types of groups meet behind closed doors.

Others see it differently than I do.

 

Discussions on the way

Edited October 26, 2021 by zerostao

[liminal_luke]

2 minutes ago, zerostao said:

Covid has impacted the great majority of us, one way or another. I won't speak of personal things out here in the open---i have suffered loss and grieve.

 

 

Hi zerostao,

 

So true!  The great majority of us have suffered losses of one sort or another.  Some losses are obvious, others hidden and overlooked.  I am sorry for your loss, whatever it may be.

 

Some of us have lost our health.  Some of us have been traumatized or burdened watching as loved ones lose their health.  Some of us have been bereaved.  We are unemployed, financially strapped, isolated and lonely.  We are angry and afraid.  A few of us feel as though we are living through a dystopian movie that will end with the extinction of our species.  That´s painful.  Some of us have missed graduations and proms.  Weddings have been cancelled, travel curtailed.  Families have been torn apart as people find themselves unable to bridge differences of opinion about vaccines and masks and social distancing.  Some of us have grown more depressed and more anxious.  Many of us have gained weight.

 

There should be a 12 step group for people who have been hurt by Covid.  Hi, I´m Luke and I´ve suffered during the pandemic.  I wish there was a semi-public space to speak out our collective grief.  A place where we could take our traumatized, twisted-up, damaged selves and feel, finally, like we belong.      

[Geof Nanto]

The importance of support groups, I totally get it. NA saved my life from heroin addiction back in the 1980’s. But in NA we never talked about drugs as evil. We never tried to convince other people of their folly in using drugs. Rather a foundational principal of NA (and AA for alcohol) is that if you want to use drugs that’s your business, but if you want to stop come to NA. In other words, these groups are fundamentally not evangelical. 

 

The problem I have with the PPD discussions in question is that their focus is on the evil of vaccines, of the supposed damage they do to our physical bodies. And to that end a large amount of extremely dubious information has been presented.  If the discussion stuck to the sort of issues Luke raises above then I wholeheartedly support it. 

 

Cultivation of my subtle body is of primary importance for me. I try to avoid taking any sort of medication and have almost entirely done so for the last 30 years. Yet I chose to get Covid 19 AstraZenica vaccine. One, because I’m old and I have legacy health issues from my drug using days, notably respiratory weakness. Two, I could feel how much subtle energy I would need to expend to defend myself against the power of the collective push to vaccinate everyone.  Also, I was curious to feel for myself what effects I felt from the vaccine.  At this stage I notice no adverse effect on my subtle body and am very pleased I feel a measure of protection both against Covid and against the very real pressure to vaccinate. 

 

There are so many ways ‘normal’ contemporary lifestyles damage our subtle bodies. Drugs and alcohol are just one of the more obvious examples of many. Of these damaging influences, I personally don’t consider the one off taking of a vaccine to be a significant concern.  
 

[liminal_luke]

21 minutes ago, Yueya said:

 

There are so many ways ‘normal’ contemporary lifestyles damage our subtle bodies. 
 

 

I´ve been remarkably strong when it comes to resisting the Covid vaccines; not so strong when it comes to resisting apple fritters.  Ya can´t win them all.  

[Vajra Fist]

On 25/10/2021 at 4:18 PM, Apech said:

@Trunk and mod team et al,

 

Have you considered moving all Covid related content to a separate sub with a pinned and prominent site disclaimer/position statement i.e. not a medical site, recommend all users to seek professional medical advice, follow their local government guidelines regarding social distancing etc. ... and please cite all claims with links to external sites.  And that apart from this we support the freedom of individuals to reach their own conclusions informed by current science and the values of the system of cultivation they follow, and value the function of this site as free and frank discussions between individuals with their own views, questions or reservations.

 

?

 

 

 

Honestly, might as well move it to a different forum altogether, and name it the CovidBums. As at this point it seems to be the only thing some members regularly post about.

[Earl Grey]

6 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Honestly, might as well move it to a different forum altogether, and name it the CovidBums. As at this point it seems to be the only thing some members regularly post about.

 

Publicly, OriginalDao doesn't seem to talk about it, probably in their private group for current events...which was the main point of the subforum here people need to apply for to discuss. I don't understand why people seemingly want to talk about it openly in a PPJ that isn't even their own but not in a private section. Cheya and Taomeow I get because they want autonomy over people who give them crap, but they've taken too much now it seems and rightfully closed the door to further guests. 

 

This is probably why it's good to not get too attached to one forum community as much when exhaustion comes. I think everyone ought to consider going between here, AG, and OD anyway, or perhaps even reddit so they don't get too drained like Luke feels (and me). 

[zerostao]

24 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Honestly, might as well move it to a different forum altogether, and name it the CovidBums. As at this point it seems to be the only thing some members regularly post about.

Discussions on the Way

 

and along the Way, Covid rudely stood in the Way. what good is cultivation if it cannot address whatever decides to show itself along the way?

discussing various remedies: herbs, qigongs, other, that ease the suffering covid has brought, seems natural to me. 

listening to the experiences that members choose to share is valuable and cannot be found elsewhere. 

Dao Bum, Covid Bum, label any way you like, either way it's gonna be the same.

Good Chi Kung beats covid all day long.

[zerostao]

27 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I think everyone ought to consider going between here, AG, and OD anyway, or perhaps even reddit so they don't get too drained like Luke feels (and me). 

Sound and reasonable advice. It is not realistic to get the full view from just one site. Probably not realistic to get the full view, regardless. It's good to have more than one source, whatever one is researching/exploring.

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Honestly, might as well move it to a different forum altogether, and name it the CovidBums. As at this point it seems to be the only thing some members regularly post about.

 

 

Coronabums has a better ring to it.

[el_tortugo]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Coronabums has a better ring to it.

 

[Trunk]

23 hours ago, Apech said:

Coronabums has a better ring to it.

 

 

[Trunk]

This thread is on my mind.

I’m going to re-read the entire thread: try and see others’ perspectives more fully,

and explore what adjustment/s (if any) that I might take to make things more amenable for each.

Thank you for all contributions to the discussion,

Trunk

[Vajra Fist]

On 27/10/2021 at 3:59 PM, Apech said:

 

 

Coronabums has a better ring to it.

 

Accurate

 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coronabum

[Trunk]

Community,

Currently overwhelmed with practical 'real life' issues.

I hope to have time to review things here later in the week.

thanks for your patience,

Trunk

[silent thunder]

Much Love and Respect Trunk. 

Bums are resilient, and i suspect no raindrop ever falls in the wrong spot.

We're with you.

[Trunk]

Couple of things:

1. I'm still super busy at home, and so don't have the time to re-consider every angle and every view point at this time.  I *do* want to go over this thoroughly, again, *especially* looking at pts of view that hadn't been fully explored previously.

 

2. The change that I'm making right now is to soften the punitive actions: as stated initially, they're too harsh.  That was my poor judgement and poor attitude.  Especially given that they're in PPDs.

 

 

On 10/22/2021 at 11:05 AM, Trunk said:

So, here's a 3 option plan and - for now at least - I'm implementing #1.

 

#1. If you have a COVID related thread in your PPD, you can not moderate out opposing COVID prevention & treatment views from that COVID related thread (nor “ban” any member from such a thread).  If you'd rather have that thread moved to the Current Events section, staff would be happy to.  If you do moderate out opposing treatment views in such a thread, all COVID related threads in that PPD will be Pitted, locked and hidden on first offense.

 

Though it's not a rule at this point... Please consider, as a matter of courtesy, posting controversial Current Events topics (non- internal arts) in the Current Events section.  It's less distracting for the rest of the community.

 

... if COVID treatment discussion continues to be a problematic issue here at TDBs, then ...

 

#2. COVID prevention & treatment discussion will be entirely restricted to the Current Events section.  Any such threads in PPDs will be locked in position (or moved to Current Events at the member's request).  Any unlocking of such threads will result in thread being Pitted, locked, hidden, upon first offense.

 

 

So, #1 revised becomes (I'll revise the original post to same)

Quote

#1. If you have a COVID related thread in your PPD, you can not moderate out opposing COVID prevention & treatment views from that COVID related thread (nor “ban” any member from such a thread).  If you'd rather have that thread moved to the Current Events section (you can keep a hidden original version within your PPD), staff would be happy to.  If you do moderate out opposing treatment views in such a thread, you'll be given a warning and asked to reverse your action.  Repeated offenses escalate to warning, suspension, worst case the thread gets locked & hidden in your own PPD (still with an option to have it copied to the Current Events section).

 

This is much less heavy-handed re: admin stomping around in members' PPDs.  Much more gradual, with even worst case punishment (unlikely to happen, imo) still respects your ownership of your own threads in your own PPDs.

 

That's it for me for a few days,

As I said, I look fwd to coming back and reviewing again in more detail,

Trunk

[Earl Grey]

4 hours ago, Trunk said:

Couple of things:

1. I'm still super busy at home, and so don't have the time to re-consider every angle and every view point at this time.  I *do* want to go over this thoroughly, again, *especially* looking at pts of view that hadn't been fully explored previously.

 

2. The change that I'm making right now is to soften the punitive actions: as stated initially, they're too harsh.  That was my poor judgement and poor attitude.  Especially given that they're in PPDs.

 

 

 

 

So, #1 revised becomes (I'll revise the original post to same)

 

This is much less heavy-handed re: admin stomping around in members' PPDs.  Much more gradual, with even worst case punishment (unlikely to happen, imo) still respects your ownership of your own threads in your own PPDs.

 

That's it for me for a few days,

As I said, I look fwd to coming back and reviewing again in more detail,

Trunk

Whatever is keeping you busy and occupying your head space, remember always to breathe.

[liminal_luke]

At the risk of beating a very dead horse,  I´ve been asking myself two questions.

 

(1) Do the staff members who favor this new COVID discussion rule believe that the vaccines are "safe and effective" or at least that their benefits outweigh their risks?  @Trunk can correct me if I´m wrong but I believe the answer is yes. 

 

(2) Would staff feel the need for this rule change if they did not have this belief that the vaccines are a public health good?  I doubt it.  

 

The new rule is crafted in a very careful and intelligent way so that it appears to be value neutral.  Reading the text of the rule, one can´t say that forum staff are favoring one specific view of the pandemic over another because the policy applies equally to all Covid related ppd threads.  Here´s the thing though: the membership of the Bums are a particularly perceptive bunch.  Not much gets by us.  And the two Bums who this ruling most directly effects are arguably more perceptive than most.  No amount of careful wording can disguise the fact that forum staff is, in fact, taking a position here on Covid public health policy and using their powers to advance a particular view.  Of course staff members are people too and it´s natural and right that they have their opinions just like the rest of us.  What´s a bit irksome however, at least to some of us who don´t share the conventional view, is that these positions are allowed to color the way the forum is run.  That said, I know this is a very difficult issue and everyone, including most especially forum staff, is just trying their best to get through it all as kindly and responsibly as possible.

 

Perhaps this whole issue is settled but I just wanted to share my thoughts.  

Edited November 15, 2021 by liminal_luke

[ralis]

6 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

At the risk of beating a very dead horse,  I´ve been asking myself two questions.

 

(1) Do the staff members who favor this new COVID discussion rule believe that the vaccines are "safe and effective" or at least that their benefits outweigh their risks?  @Trunk can correct me if I´m wrong but I believe the answer is yes. 

 

(2) Would staff feel the need for this rule change if they did not have this belief that the vaccines are a public health good?  I doubt it.  

 

The new rule is crafted in a very careful and intelligent way so that it appears to be value neutral.  Reading the text of the rule, one can´t say that forum staff are favoring one specific view of the pandemic over another because the policy applies equally to all Covid related ppd threads.  Here´s the thing though: the membership of the Bums are a particularly perceptive bunch.  Not much gets by us.  And the two Bums who this ruling most directly effects are arguably more perceptive than most.  No amount of careful wording can disguise the fact that forum staff is, in fact, taking a position here on Covid public health policy and using their powers to advance a particular view.  Of course staff members are people too and it´s natural and right that they have their opinions just like the rest of us.  What´s a bit irksome however, at least to some of us who don´t share the conventional view, is that these positions are allowed to color the way the forum is run.  That said, I know this is a very difficult issue and everyone, including most especially forum staff, is just trying their best to get through it all as kindly and responsibly as possible.

 

Perhaps this whole issue is settled but I just wanted to share my thoughts.  

 

More perceptive than most? Really? I vehemently disagree! The posts in question are not based in science, but for the most part are links to conspiracy sites i.e, Bitchute, Mercola and so forth. This site is no place for propaganda! Why? Dissemination of COVID misinformation can and will lead to more deaths and long term health consequences for many!

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, ralis said:

 

More perceptive than most? Really? I vehemently disagree! The posts in question are not based in science, but for the most part are links to conspiracy sites i.e, Bitchute, Mercola and so forth. This site is no place for propaganda! Why? Dissemination of COVID misinformation can and will lead to more deaths and long term health consequences for many!

 

 

 

" arguably more perceptive than most.  "

 

- I have not seen that argument yet .