Do animals know 無為; wúwéi

[Mig]

I have been observing cats and dogs and other animals and I see that if they don't get what they want, I don't see them holding grudges or getting mad at you because you didn't give them what they wanted. I can see that when they want something they know how to tell you because I hear them vocalizing what they want in different ways then once they get it they move on and do their own thing. Now when it comes to territory they can be as nasty as a human but again I don't see them acting with hate as humans do. It made me think do they know 無為: wúwéi and is it what first Daoists saw to bring forth this concept?

[dwai]

Animals follow nature. They might not have the volition/free will like humans but they will seldom act out of character/their nature. Maybe if they are driven to madness from disease or trauma, they can act uncharacteristically, but that’s a rare occurrence, IME. 

[Gerard]

What animals know should devote an entire book in Taoism. I interact with wildlife every day and there are particular birds that quickly react when someone is meditating in any way or form. They are also aware of the SPIRIT, a lot more than 99% of humans.

 

Big respect to them! 

[zerostao]

Some animals cultivate, some have extraordinary abilities. Some could be defined as “magical”

[Gerard]

9 hours ago, zerostao said:

Some could be defined as “magical”

 

 

You live in the forest, right? So you are very aware of this. 

 

They think a lot less than us (if they ever do) so they can perceive and 'see' things naturally. 

 

Birds get crazy ever single evening right before sunset yet humans carry on with their activities as usual. Do why they carry on like that?

 

The sacred Yin you don't want to mess up with.

 

[zerostao]

Yes, for me, it's hard to leave the forest. So much gratitude that it's never more than a step or two away. A couple of weeks ago, while i was pre-meditating for my pre sunrise meditation and arriving at a suitable spot to meet and greet with red plasma sphere bringing light and warmth, a lone bird, (and i am well versed recognizing which birds are chirping, whistling, singing, talking) i couldnt identify, it was around darkest time of the morning, spoke to me for a few. It was the first bird communicating of the morning, well timed message. More gratitude from me, fr fr. 

Those few moments the lone unknown (to me) bird talked, all the other birds were quiet. A moment after i heard the bird speak, the other birds began making joyful noises. 

That sunrise qigong after meditations, a bird message, was spectacular. Super charged for the better part of the day with lingering benefits through part of the next day. Energetics, Shen, Nature. 

[Mig]

16 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

 

You live in the forest, right? So you are very aware of this. 

 

They think a lot less than us (if they ever do) so they can perceive and 'see' things naturally. 

 

Birds get crazy ever single evening right before sunset yet humans carry on with their activities as usual. Do why they carry on like that?

 

The sacred Yin you don't want to mess up with.

 

I have noticed by the beach seagulls at a certain time of the day especially before evening or sunset, they all sit looking at one direction on the horizon and they all seem in accordance of the environment. I see my three leg cat who loves to be outside and now since we are hosting a family rescued dog, who happens liking chasing the cat, now our cat wants to be inside of the house when the dog is inside. Still training the dog but even though the dog got hurt by the cat, still have this territorial instinct and keeps chasing the cat. Is that 無為; wúwéi?

[natural]

Early on in my pilot training (airplane single engine land) I learned to determine the  prevailing ground wind direction by noting which way the cows were facing.

They always face directly into the wind.

Away from their flatulence!

[Nungali]

On 15/11/2021 at 10:34 AM, Gerard said:

 

 

You live in the forest, right? So you are very aware of this. 

 

They think a lot less than us (if they ever do) so they can perceive and 'see' things naturally. 

 

Birds get crazy ever single evening right before sunset yet humans carry on with their activities as usual. Do why they carry on like that?

 

The sacred Yin you don't want to mess up with.

 

 

 

Because  .....  neglect not the sunset meditation .

 

[Nungali]

On 15/11/2021 at 11:10 AM, zerostao said:

Yes, for me, it's hard to leave the forest. So much gratitude that it's never more than a step or two away. A couple of weeks ago, while i was pre-meditating for my pre sunrise meditation and arriving at a suitable spot to meet and greet with red plasma sphere bringing light and warmth, a lone bird, (and i am well versed recognizing which birds are chirping, whistling, singing, talking) i couldnt identify, it was around darkest time of the morning, spoke to me for a few. It was the first bird communicating of the morning, well timed message. More gratitude from me, fr fr. 

Those few moments the lone unknown (to me) bird talked, all the other birds were quiet. A moment after i heard the bird speak, the other birds began making joyful noises. 

That sunrise qigong after meditations, a bird message, was spectacular. Super charged for the better part of the day with lingering benefits through part of the next day. Energetics, Shen, Nature. 

 

Here, it changes seasonally  .   A lot of the time , the morning starts  ( ie. first call before the others  ) with a laugh.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXA0-YAoo9Q

 

 

They are VERY quiet  at the moment  ( and dont think I dont know that you guys have a nest in the hollowed out bole up that tree hanging over the cabin .... just because you are sneaking around and being quiet   doesnt mean I dont know trying to hide the fact from everyone else  )  .   They also have a habit of 'picking' on certain people   ( like when a friend from Sydney came to stay here  and slept in the caravan up the back yard , VERY early about 6 of them got around that caravan  and started such a ruckus and didnt stop until he finally  got out of bed and went outside  ..... " Git up ya lazy city sleep in ! "    

 

My absolute fav  was when I stayed up on the mountain . I was seriously ill for a few days and spent some time recovering , each morning, the first sound I heard were crimson rosellas .  I had to  spend a lot of time sitting on the verandah when recovering , when that was a bit much they would turn up and delight me .  I think they played a good part in my recovery .   I associate their call with a pleasant experience or time in my childhood but I cant remember what   ...   to me, they sound  wonderful  -  a 'simple'  tinkle like  " Tee-too , tee-too " . 

 

 

 

At the moment  the day starts with  Pied Butcher Bird  ..... but now I am confused as I recently found out they are excellent imitators , so  any 'other' birds I hear at dawn might be them doing   a copy .

 

 

When the red flower tree was blossoming near my bedroom window , the Friarbirds would start at dawn .... weirdos !  

 

 

(Glad the Pied Butcherbirds  dont copy that ! )

 

I think they DO practice wu wei  ......  if we consider wu - wei  not  interfering  with the 'unfolding  of things'  ..... unnecessarily  .... or in a  complex way  ( when  one might get what one wants via that 'unfolding' anyway )  .

[zerostao]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

At the moment  the day starts with  Pied Butcher Bird  ..... but now I am confused as I recently found out they are excellent imitators , so  any 'other' birds I hear at dawn might be them doing   a copy .

I don't know the birds you're speaking of; I am sure they are remarkable. I'm sure they'd confuse me, at least until I'd have a lifetime around them. Here, I can tell if it's a mockingbird speaking cardinal or the cardinal, or a bluejay pretending to be a red tailed hawk. the bluejay antics work well on their fellow forest critters, who are not going to waste time finding cover if it is the hawk or just some bluejay. 

I can also tell if the night birds, whip-poor-will or barred owl has wings or stand upright on two legs ( prowlers) 

 

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I think they DO practice wu wei  ......  if we consider wu - wei  not  interfering  with the 'unfolding  of things'  ..... unnecessarily  .... or in a  complex way  ( when  one might get what one wants via that 'unfolding' anyway )  .

Nice. And I think some animals practice both that you mention.

 

Do you think some animals; be they , other primates, bears, cats, birds, fox, coyote, whichever animal,,,

cultivate and do so consciously? 

[Mig]

6 hours ago, zerostao said:

I don't know the birds you're speaking of; I am sure they are remarkable. I'm sure they'd confuse me, at least until I'd have a lifetime around them. Here, I can tell if it's a mockingbird speaking cardinal or the cardinal, or a bluejay pretending to be a red tailed hawk. the bluejay antics work well on their fellow forest critters, who are not going to waste time finding cover if it is the hawk or just some bluejay. 

I can also tell if the night birds, whip-poor-will or barred owl has wings or stand upright on two legs ( prowlers) 

 

Nice. And I think some animals practice both that you mention.

 

Do you think some animals; be they , other primates, bears, cats, birds, fox, coyote, whichever animal,,,

cultivate and do so consciously? 

I doubt it or I would say I have no idea because I don't know what is their mind, all I can see is what I observe. Their language is beyond my knowledge and sometimes I wonder they probably say more with their body positioning, eyes or uttering sounds. I see my semi feral cat when I come to him in a nice way, he will show me his claws ready to attack and walk away because apparently he doesn't want to be bothered. Late at night, he can be in the backyard while the racoon come or skunk and walk by without any confrontation. I have the impression we humanize animals to assume their behavior or their reactions. However, I see our pet when her mom comes back she runs everywhere and is so excited to see her again. Something about animals that we don't know or will never know because we haven't been animals to know it.

[zerostao]

There is quite a bit, a lot, that I don't know about animals or humans. Human is an animal,  BTW.

More specifically, a human is a mammal with opposing thumbs capable at grasping at straws.

Also, humans give themselves way too much credit and other animals not nearly enough.

As far as some animals (not all) making a practice of cultivating---just as, some humans (not all) make a practice of cultivating,,

as far as that---I have no doubt at all.

I wouldn't try humanizing other animals, try and see them for what they are, their own unique traits, abilities, tendencies, nature. 

 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, zerostao said:

I don't know the birds you're speaking of; I am sure they are remarkable.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, zerostao said:

 

 

 

I'm sure they'd confuse me, at least until I'd have a lifetime around them. Here, I can tell if it's a mockingbird speaking cardinal or the cardinal, or a bluejay pretending to be a red tailed hawk. the bluejay antics work well on their fellow forest critters, who are not going to waste time finding cover if it is the hawk or just some bluejay. 

I can also tell if the night birds, whip-poor-will or barred owl has wings or stand upright on two legs ( prowlers) 

 

Nice. And I think some animals practice both that you mention.

 

Do you think some animals; be they , other primates, bears, cats, birds, fox, coyote, whichever animal,,,

cultivate and do so consciously? 

 

Probably.

 

 

[Nungali]

On 16/11/2021 at 7:53 AM, natural said:

Early on in my pilot training (airplane single engine land) I learned to determine the  prevailing ground wind direction by noting which way the cows were facing.

They always face directly into the wind.

Away from their flatulence!

 

 

 

 

 

Besides , it doesn't make sense ; what about the cow in front of you ? If you all face the same directions  then your nose is at the cow in front behind . 

 

Surely its better to smell your own  than someone else's ?

 

..... especially when there are guys like Olaf here , around :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[natural]

Memo to self :

Do not fly with Nungali anywhere near flight controls! 

But buy all means consider hiring him as a juror selection adviser. 

Consultant of character of individuals worth, for credit worthiness. 

And general character...

I am sure he would be helpful in countless ways ;  )

Edited November 17, 2021 by natural
To clarify my intentions

[Bhathen]

Quote

Origin of Lakshmi the Ashram Cow

Sri Ramana patting Lakshmi - image from An Introduction to Sri Ramana's Life and Teachings - David Godman talks to John David Page 5

A villager had a dream in which he was told to offer his next calf to Ramanasramam. He brought his cow and the calf to Bhagavan. The jungle around the Ashram was thick at that time and there were cheetahs. The Ashram people were perplexed and refused the offer, but the villager was taking his dream seriously and would not take the calf away. The mother cow had to remain with the calf to feed her. Finally, the cow and the calf were entrusted to a devotee in the town. The calf became the famous cow Lakshmi. She grew up and had three calves within a few years. She would come daily to the Ashram to have her meals, graze on the Ashram land, enter the Hall and sit contentedly near Bhagavan. In the evening, she would go back to the town as other women did.

 

Once Lakshmi came into the Hall. She was pregnant at that time. It was after lunch time when Bhagavan was reading the newspapers. Lakshmi came near and started licking the papers. Bhagavan looked up and said: "Wait a little, Lakshmi." But Lakshmi went on licking. Bhagavan laid his paper aside, put his hands behind Lakshmi's horns and his head against hers. Like this they stayed for quite a long time. I stood nearby looking at the wonderful scene. After some ten minutes or so, Bhagavan turned to me and said: "Do you know what Lakshmi is doing? She is in Samadhi."

 

I looked at her and tears were flowing in streams down her broad cheeks. Her breathing had stopped and her eyes were fixed on Bhagavan. After some time Bhagavan changed his position and asked: "Lakshmi, how do you feel now?" Lakshmi moved backward, as if reluctant to turn her tail towards Bhagavan, walked round the Hall and went out.

Shantammal, Eternal Bhagavan

 

https://sriramanamaharishi.com/animals-birds/ramana-maharshi-and-animals/

[Gerard]

On 17/11/21 at 2:23 AM, zerostao said:

Do you think some animals; be they , other primates, bears, cats, birds, fox, coyote, whichever animal,,,

cultivate and do so consciously? 

 

Yes they do...and CONSCIOUSLY. A good example is the kookaburra which is Australia's most evolved animal. I have see them meditating on top of trees. They sense EVERYTHING!

 

[zerostao]

Thank you @Gerard and thank you @Nungali 

maybe, one day, I will have the good fortune to meet up with kookaburra & pied butcher bird.

 

Thank you @Mig for creating this delightful thread; which may have traveled along a tangential line you didn't anticipate?!

such is the way of discussions on the way, here on TDB.

 

"do they know 無為: wúwéi and is it what first Daoists saw to bring forth this concept?"

--Mig

 

deep thought !

perhaps your question is a solid hypothesis; may be.  

"first Daoists" being astute; closely studying nature may have learned the concept from animals. 

another possibility is that wuwei naturally arises in nature and was available to animals and "first Daoists" alike.

very curious thing, the nature of Nature. 

perhaps, the inconceivable nature of Nature.

 

 

 

[Gerard]

 

mapbox add geojson

 

You are most welcome forest dweller.

 

They are very special birds these kookaburras. This one was making noise on the balcony railing by hitting it with its beak to call me while I was inside. He was actually staring at me and trying to read my mind very intensely...likewise so you want to play mind games hey!

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Gerard