Father of Light, Mother of Darkness

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

It's all encompassing from afar, imagining this the devotee is like a speck of dust in comparrisson.  That's the idea, at least.  A mental visualization intended to bring a specific emotional response.

I see. Would the term "transcendent" be more apropos?

All-encompassing evokes the idea of "all creation is a part of me" kind of feeling, while "distant/speck of dust" evokes a separateness. The "speck of dust" idea can certainly generate a sense of awe/fear. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by dwai

[Daniel]

37 minutes ago, dwai said:

I see. Would the term "transcendent" be more apropos?

 

Precisely

 

37 minutes ago, dwai said:

All-encompassing evokes the idea of "all creation is a part of me" kind of feeling, while "distant/speck of dust" evokes a separateness. The "speck of dust" idea can certainly generate a sense of awe/fear. 

 

Yes, but the seperateness is a requirement in certain circumstances.  For a devotional practice, it would depend on the diety and what are the bounds of relationship permitted.  Perhaps this deity prefers the relationship of Monarch to Citizen or Transcendant God to speck-of-dust.

 

On a practical perspective, the speck-of-dust visualization can be useful too.  It's kind of like the axiom "nobody's perfect" when a goal or task fails.  I'm being brief, hopefully you understand what I mean?   

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Daniel

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Precisely

 

 

Yes, but the seperateness is a requirement in certain circumstances.  For a devotional practice, it would depend on the diety and what are the bounds of relationship permitted.  Perhaps this deity prefers the relationship of Monarch to Citizen or Transcendant God to speck-of-dust.

I can see this quite prevalent in the two newer Abrahamic religions, in the mainstream (non-mystical) traditions. Primary mover seems to be fear (or maybe it's awe -- it's hard to tell the difference). 

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

On a practical perspective, the speck-of-dust visualization can be useful too.  It's kind of like the axiom "nobody's perfect" when a goal or task fails.  I'm being brief, hopefully you understand what I mean?   

 

Absolutely. One can look at that unfathomable universe, the creation of the supreme Deity, and go,  "imagine how mighty and powerful that Deity must be to create this vast and complex universe!" and consequently, "I am nothing...but a puny gnat in your presence O Lord!". Personally, I think it's not a good approach and is a recipe for many terrible things in the name of opposing conceptions of such a Deity. 

[Daniel]

18 hours ago, dwai said:

I can see this quite prevalent in the two newer Abrahamic religions, in the mainstream (non-mystical) traditions. Primary mover seems to be fear (or maybe it's awe -- it's hard to tell the difference). 

 

Yes, I agree.  A more healthful result would be surrender, not fear.  Although fear/awe has its place as well.  Fear directed in a constructive manner is very close to excitement.  As an example, a lot of people enjoy haunted houses and horror movies.  Fear/awe that results in excitement can be a powerful, positve motivation.

 

18 hours ago, dwai said:

Absolutely. One can look at that unfathomable universe, the creation of the supreme Deity, and go,  "imagine how mighty and powerful that Deity must be to create this vast and complex universe!" and consequently, "I am nothing...but a puny gnat in your presence O Lord!". Personally, I think it's not a good approach and is a recipe for many terrible things in the name of opposing conceptions of such a Deity. 

 

You make a good point.  What you're describing sounds to me like domination, not surrender.  I'm not sure that a speck-of-dust would attempt to dominate others into accepting their god-concept.  I would hope they would surrender and leave it to their chosen deity to effect change.  Although, sadly, world history shows that some people default to zealotry and doing the terrible things you mentioned above.  Even if these people are not the majority, imo, only a few zealots can do a lot of damage.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Daniel

[Nungali]

On 20/11/2021 at 6:49 AM, dwai said:

I see. Would the term "transcendent" be more apropos?

All-encompassing evokes the idea of "all creation is a part of me" kind of feeling, while "distant/speck of dust" evokes a separateness. The "speck of dust" idea can certainly generate a sense of awe/fear. 

 

Well, thats 'the trick' isnt it .    To do both but not go too far in either direction .

 

" Remember that this earth is but an atom in the universe, and that thou thyself art but an atom thereon, and that even couldst thou become the God of this earth whereon thou crawlest and grovellest, that thou wouldest, even then, be but an atom, and one amongst many.

15. Nevertheless have the greatest self-respect, and to that end sin not against thyself. The sin which is unpardonable is knowingly and wilfully to reject truth, to fear knowledge lest that knowledge pander not to thy prejudices."

 

also ,  although one may be an infinitesimal tiny speck in this vast Universe - you are unique , there is only one of you .

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, dwai said:

I can see this quite prevalent in the two newer Abrahamic religions, in the mainstream (non-mystical) traditions. Primary mover seems to be fear (or maybe it's awe -- it's hard to tell the difference). 

 

Oh def' ! Especially fear .  The last week I have been talking on a religious forum with hard case Christian and Jewish historians . It appears the Jews had no real idea about heaven or an after life. Nor did the early Christians , that seems to have developed later; an input from Zoroastrianism  ( resurrection  and 'paradise' ) and Platonism .   So I asked what was the motivation to obey God's laws and do 'right' ... aside from being struck down and punished horribly .  Seems that was the 'prime mover' .

 

23 hours ago, dwai said:

Absolutely. One can look at that unfathomable universe, the creation of the supreme Deity, and go,  "imagine how mighty and powerful that Deity must be to create this vast and complex universe!" and consequently, "I am nothing...but a puny gnat in your presence O Lord!". Personally, I think it's not a good approach and is a recipe for many terrible things in the name of opposing conceptions of such a Deity. 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Yes, I agree.  A more healthful result would be surrender, not fear.  Although fear/awe has its place as well.  Fear directed in a constructive manner is very close to excitement.  As an example, a lot of people enjoy haunted houses and horror movies.  Fear/awe that results in excitement can be a powerful, positve motivation.

 

In a way . In the way a lama did here when he queried someone's idea about meditation and awareness ; he told everyone to 'meditate' , they sat cross legged, closed eyes and drifted off .... and then he  ....

 

 " Pe !  "

 

Startled people out their skin !  and then lama "Thats it! Thats it ! NOW you are in awareness .... hold it  .... hold it  ... Oh, you are loosing it  .... you have lost it now .  . . .    That was awareness . "

 

But not the fear and instilled guilt of even existing , of being born 'in sin' of needing 'redemption' against an eternity of torture , the confusion of a mix of  fear and loving father that is instilled to many Christian children . That is a sickness .

 

5 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

 

You make a good point.  What you're describing sounds to me like domination, not surrender.  I'm not sure that a speck-of-dust would attempt to dominate others into accepting their god-concept.  I would hope they would surrender and leave it to their chosen deity to effect change.  Although, sadly, world history shows that some people default to zealotry and doing the terrible things you mentioned above.  Even if these people are not the majority, imo, only a few zealots can do a lot of damage.

 

 

Or a 'speck of dust' might try to make something of themselves  aversely ... by conquering and oppressing  others , by considering they are the 'Chosen specks' and have rights over  other 'specks' rights .

[Daniel]

28 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Or a 'speck of dust' might try to make something of themselves  aversely ... by conquering and oppressing  others , by considering they are the 'Chosen specks' and have rights over  other 'specks' rights .

 

Once the speck tries to make something of themselves the metaphor fails.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Daniel

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Draco said:

 

Sounds like The Alchemy of Wu Wei

I’d describe it exactly like that, at a certain point we have to get out of the way and let the black and the white do their thing.