How to - defensively - tread in the realm of the subconscious

[S:C]

Trying to make this post less obscure:

 

I'd like to know if you believe in NLP (or black magic or black tantra)

 

if you believe in that:

I'd like to know if there's a decent way

to get aware of such stuff

if one is susceptible to this stuff

and to repell this influence

and how that is possible.

(and no, I don't wish to go into the abyss of reddit and read occultist works!)

 

This is because when several women mentioned specifics of sexual abuse in a town nearby, there were men who spoke up and said, they might have been psychologically manipulated via hypnotherapy or neurolinguistic programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming and this sounds just very disgusting and I wondered if that might be a real thing and how those could be helped, if that wasn't in their benefit but for egoistic purposes of the perpetrator. Maybe those men had no idea, was hoping for a 'reality check' on the daobums.

 

Thanks a lot!

Edited March 19, 2022 by questionmark

[Nungali]

The above seems obscure .  Whats this thread actually about  ?

 

1. How real is  ....   what ? 

 

2. What undue influence .

 

3.   how to defend against  'someone playing dice with responsibilities  '     ? ? ?    Wot  ?  What do you mean by that ?

 

What are you talking about when you refer to advice given, where was that ? No references ,  how are we supposed to know what you are talking about ?  Obviously its some thread here somewhere , but where ?

[S:C]

The how and if of the influence of occult magic(k), NLP,  black tantra or whatever they call it...

 

You, @Nungali, always mention Aleister Crowley... I know you hold him in high regard, but I do not and do not wish to get into his works, just asking, in your opinion in a few words, if that stuff works and how it could influence people on a subconscious level or else - people under the spell - so to speak.

- if it is even real (that's what I dunnot know).

Edited November 21, 2021 by questionmark
wording

[Nungali]

50 minutes ago, questionmark said:

The how and if of the influence of occult magic(k), NLP,  black tantra or whatever they call it...

 

Well, they are all very different things  globbed together .  So I dont think you will get an informed answer about whatever this 'whatever they call it ' thing is  . Even looking at one of them ; 'occult magic(k)' ,  the definition would be obscure . However one can define magick as Crowley (Oooops! there I go again  )   distinctly added the k so as to give the word a specific definition . So  the 'how and if' of that could be explained .

 

The how and if of NLP is different , as is 'black tantra' .

 

Maybe its better , and if this IS actually your focus , to ask , how do people get influenced to do things by others ?    That would seem to encompass the collection of things you sampled above .

 

 

 

Quote

 

You, @Nungali, always mention Aleister Crowley... I know you hold him in high regard, but I do not and do not wish to get into his works, just asking, in your opinion, if that stuff works and how it could influence people on a subconscious level or else - people under the spell - so to speak.

 

  Obviously I do not always mention him . But when the discussion is about  modern magic and occultism , to leave him out would be a bit like leaving Einstein out of a discussion about physics .  And actually, I dont particularly hold him in high regard . But I do hold some of 'his' system in high regard , and some of that is a development of others works or outright plagiarism . Some of his stuff I would not touch with a 10 foot pole . Sift for  the gold and discard the dross, I say .

 

Again, asking if  'that stuff' works is too obscure . What 'stuff ' ?    Since it is not defined , I will choose something out of the vast field of 'Crowley stuff'   about   " how it could influence people on a subconscious level ' . The best example here is probably 'dramatic ritual' , it is used in initiation systems (and has been from the early Palaeolithic,  through all times  ( eg  of the 'mid range' - Mithracism ) right up to the present  ( Freemasonry, G.D. ,  O.T.O. , etc )' .  These dramatic ritual rites  are seen in initiation ceremonies , public performances or   rites of celebration ( as in Elysium )  Mass , etc .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rites_of_Eleusis

 

Basically it 'imprints' as it imitates a 'significant life experience' , it is hoped it becomes 'an imprint' that helps to guide you throughout your life .  Things taught to us in other ways ( rote or textbook learning ) can fade into insignificance  .  The senses and emotions are stimulated , colour form and symbolism is used  ( and symbolism, being 'the language of the unconscious' )  provides a direct route into unconscious influence .

 

Quote

 

How would those who got under someone's spell get aware of this and be able to stop it, - if it is even real (that's what I dunnot know).

 

 

 

Well, thats why it is often seen as 'effective ' .  If you dont know .... how do you know ?

 

Ever tried to convince a crazy or hallucinating person they are crazy or hallucinating ?  ..... Nope ! .  Its better to 'catch the bird' .

 

Spoiler

 A speciality  I had in my hospital work ; confused patient ( due to meds they put them on ) ; " The bird is out of the cage , the bird is out ... someone catch it  .... now its sitting on the bed , get it off !   Its pecking my bandages !   Now its flown under the bed , get it !  "   -  Nurses trying to convince her its not there ... nope !  One suggests paging me . I come in ; "Right where is he ? "  Grab a towel, go under the bed , make some squawking noises  " Come here you !  ... Got him ! "   Bundle up the towel go  and come out from under the bed  .   " Right , he won;t give you any more trouble , back into the cage you ! "

 

Patient ; "Thank you dear ."   To nurse ; "What a nice man . "

 

Sometimes , people get a hint that something isnt right  eg  a member here wrote that they realised they where thinking about harming their beloved pets  .   Things dont gell or are different .  Some get a check up' every so often via scrying , by self or  a trusted other person .  Friends may point out different or unusual behaviour in you , etc .

 

There !  I wrote that bit without mentioning Crowley  once    ........    oh  damn   !         

Edited November 21, 2021 by Nungali

[Nungali]

The other thing is , if the average person was not walking around in some near type of hypnotic programmed trance anyway  ( ie. 'normal consciousness '  ) they would not be so susceptible to  such influences in the first place.    

[S:C]

Thanks, @Nungali, -

- to speak in the terms of spells and magic,

rather than NLP and anchors, hypno'therapy' etc. etc. ...

 

in your words... (trying to summarize)

 

it would take a "white magician"

(with some experience like that they strive for in the eleusian mysteries)

to break the "spell" of a "black magician" or

egoistic unaware manipulative wicked bastard, so to speak?

Or the "spell" didn't even result there but was there all along?

Irritating!

How would one ever know the intent...? How then trust...?

 

---

 

Well, in the case of the assault I was mentioning,

- the woman mentioned, she couldn't mumble a "NO!"

but was strongly unwilling to intercourse when it happened,

and let it happen, - happened when she was still half asleep.

I found that pretty shocking reading this today...

(shocked not by the sexual assault, that happens often,

but that she couldn't or didn't express her explicit will.

- and she wasn't the only one there saying this... oh no...)

 

So never mind, if it is black tantra, NLP, hypnotherapy or else...

without the realization of being manipulated into something

you initially don't wish to do and the will to do something against

there's no way out for those?

 

(Asking because there's another, who didn't get what the matter

over the outcry was, as her boyfriend would usually take her,

when she was still asleep / not conscious and often couldn't say

if it was reality or a dream, - even though building of a will is not

possible in that state and it is prosecutable!)

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

near type of hypnotic programmed trance anyway  ( ie. 'normal consciousness '  )

Not sure if I understand this correctly... do you mean -

like the average consciousness is a near type of hypnotic programmed trance?

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by questionmark

[S:C]

48 minutes ago, Nungali said:

your focus , to ask , how do people get influenced to do things by others ? 

Yes. There's the obvious, that which you can deduct by simply looking at people and questioning their motives.

What is paradoxical to me, is how it is possible to influence people against their will and benefit...

 

Thus why I mentioned probabilities before... If one is aware of their will and benefit, they just wouldn't do it, no?

Why should they... So they are only halfway aware ?

 

Just wanted to know if there was some managable action,

still trying to make an analogy with the bird example... but fail miserably.

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by questionmark

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, questionmark said:

Thanks, @Nungali, -

- to speak in the terms of spells and magic,

rather than NLP and anchors, hypno'therapy' etc. etc. ...

 

in your words... (trying to summarize)

 

it would take a "white magician"

(with some experience like that they strive for in the eleusian mysteries)

to break the "spell" of a "black magician" or

egoistic unaware manipulative wicked bastard, so to speak?

 

   It looks like you are now talking about 'spells' - as in  'folk magic' ; love spells, curses , etc. things like that .   If so, yes, some who call themselves 'white magicians' offer that service ; removal or reversal of spells , some shaman do it too .

 

But there are many ways to  influence and control others . Nowadays ( in the scientific era - since the 'dynamics of transference' have been shattered , along with the old concept of the Universe   ) the explanations have defaulted , mostly, to 'psychological reasons' .  Hence the 'native'  is cured or cursed by the witch doctor becasue the native believes the witch doctor can harm or heal him  - putting the cause back on the 'victim' .   In other cases , where I have seen ' magic work '  , that appears to circumvent any psychological explanation ,  I cant explain the process .   Then again  I use electricity constantly ,  I can rave on  about the theory of it and how it works ,  I installed and built my own solar power system but I dont really know actually how it works or understand it .    

 

One of my first teachers said to me ;  " If someone asks you a question you can not answer , tell them ' It's a mystery.'  . "  

 

5 hours ago, questionmark said:

Or the "spell" didn't even result there but was there all along?

 

Eh ?    Not sure what that means either .  A spell is there all along but has no result  ?   Or a spell doesn't work or doesn't have an effect ?

 

Spoiler

There is always a good  excuse for a spell not working   eg.

 

" Well, are you SURE it was a virgin  cockerel ?  ... and you did use parchment ... and not paper ? " 

 

5 hours ago, questionmark said:

Irritating!

How would one ever know the intent...? How then trust...?

 

 

Again, I am not clear on what you mean , so I will guess .    How would one know the real and true intent  behind someone you are going to let influence you ?

 

1. If you are old enough and smart enough, you do as much preliminary research as you can .

 

2. You learn as much as you can about yourself ; your strengths and weaknesses .  Especially in your emotional realm  and realise its significance and influence on you .    This includes your  psyche and psychological make up .

 

3. If its a 'spirit' or 'disembodied / personified ' force  there are ways to test and analyse them  .  ( That's basic ' Magic 101 ' and akin to the electricians 101 lessons about  what different colours on wires mean )

 

4. One should be a bit 'forearmed' anyway and be able to handle interferences , or even 'onslaughts'  - thats like 'Magic 102 '

 

5. Hopefully, you have good 'guardians'  - to guard you as you 'grow up '  , on several levels .

 

5 hours ago, questionmark said:

Well, in the case of the assault I was mentioning,

- the woman mentioned, she couldn't mumble a "NO!"

but was strongly unwilling to intercourse when it happened,

and let it happen, - happened when she was still half asleep.

I found that pretty shocking reading this today...

(shocked not by the sexual assault, that happens often,

but that she couldn't or didn't express her explicit will.

- and she wasn't the only one there saying this... oh no...)

 

That can be common actually .   People can sort of 'freeze up '  when danger threatens or happens .

 

Others actually perform better under danger and stress .

 

5 hours ago, questionmark said:

 

So never mind, if it is black tantra, NLP, hypnotherapy or else...

without the realization of being manipulated into something

you initially don't wish to do and the will to do something against

there's no way out for those?

 

 

 

Ah , thats clearer to me .    If something is against your will  but you are being somehow manipulated into doing it  and / or you dont have the will to resist , is there any way out of the situation ?

 

I would say , perhaps , for some .  Those that can address some of the stuff I mentioned above ,  cultivate some type of self development  and insight , then as you progress, certain dynamics should start to reveal themselves to you .

 

I should point out, that to an extent , every single human 'suffers' this dynamic ( ie. being manipulated into something you dont want to do and seeing no way out of the situation )  .   Look into  behaviourism , programming, etc .

 

( Magick is supposed to be about all this stuff - self development, improvement and awareness of your situations , obvious and subtle .)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behaviorism

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness

(Exopsychology)

 

5 hours ago, questionmark said:

(Asking because there's another, who didn't get what the matter

over the outcry was, as her boyfriend would usually take her,

when she was still asleep / not conscious and often couldn't say

if it was reality or a dream, - even though building of a will is not

possible in that state and it is prosecutable!)

 

'Boyfriend' !   Ughh !  I cant imagine what goes on inside a relationship between 'normal people' .   Some even beat up their 'lovers' !

 

How the fuck did I end up on this planet ?    

 

5 hours ago, questionmark said:

 

Not sure if I understand this correctly... do you mean -

like the average consciousness is a near type of hypnotic programmed trance?

 

 

Sure !  Many have realised that   even Gurdjieff ;

 

 “In order to awaken, first of all one must realize that one is in a state of sleep. And in order to realize that one is indeed in a state of sleep, one must recognize and fully understand the nature of the forces which operate to keep one in the state of sleep, or hypnosis. "

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, questionmark said:

Yes. There's the obvious, that which you can deduct by simply looking at people and questioning their motives.

What is paradoxical to me, is how it is possible to influence people against their will and benefit...

 

Because most people are not very aware of what is going on - especially in  'subtle realms' .

 

Quote

 

Thus why I mentioned probabilities before... If one is aware of their will and benefit, they just wouldn't do it, no?

Why should they...

Not many are aware of their True Will - and that has repercussions 'all down the line' .

 

Quote

So they are only halfway aware ?

 

'The Daze of Our Lives '

 

 

 

Quote

 

Just wanted to know if there was some managable action,

 

Yes .   That knowledge should be part of  a valid tradition in Magick, awareness, self development , etc .   Its a combination of things I mentioned above  plus   a healthy dose of reason and sense , an understanding of the different influences in our psyche ( mental, emotional, etc  and their influence and power ) and their balance  , criticism ,  humour  and also the whole underlying view one has , ie.  what's you aim? Why are you doing things ? Eg  to practice certain 'magics' for the wrong reason can be a real pitfall .

 

Also their are dominant and submissive 'types' - victims and perpetrators .  Studies have been done on that , victims can even have unconscious body language that unconsciously attracts  the criminally dominant .  Even their gait , some serial victims have had 'how to walk different' lessons so they do not attract victimisation, robbery, etc .   Then there is the dominant type , particularly those that have 'compelling powers' , or eyes, as they say  -  ' Animal Magnetism ' . 

 

Quote

still trying to make an analogy with the bird example... but fail miserably.

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Nungali

[S:C]

Thank you again for your answer, @Nungali!

 

I'm not at all tuned into this, I'm quite blind concerning those subtler levels. Just on few days, - where there's some astrological transit emphasis on my natal Neptun etc. - I do get different dreams at night than usual. Else, those outer planets effects (and levels) are mostly hidden or - well overshadowed by the others. (Although dreams have usually always been helpful to me, those times now I sometimes have to check, - oh yes, it really was just a surreal dream - - uff! ).

 

That's why I prefer psychology, science, proof, perceivable cause and effect, laws of nature instead of tricks and - for me - unexplainable, might those be simple manipulation or subtler. However there's times, when I feel intuitively that I'd have like to have an explanation for some of the things I do not understand (...)

as there's something that's going wrong, and it's not wrong because of me or my perception. Like the cases I wrote about, and some other experiences. My mind strongly overwrites those as figments of imagination and oversensitivity of the senses. Maybe Occam's razor is the best solution here, - unaware stupidity (like the assault case) of people is simply awful! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor) Worse might be only aware stupidity and hurtfullness.

 

It might very well be all there, but you cannot fight with monsters you don't see? And the occult isn't really my choice of playground. For now I go with Ronald Weasley, - I'd rather like to chase butterflies than spiders (if I have to chase anything at all) and so I'll stick with the advice in 1 + 2  try to deliver it to those I have in mind as far as that's still possible ...(preliminary research and getting to know self better). I might get back to you about that topic at some time, thanks!

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by questionmark
refine

[Geof Nanto]

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

Because most people are not very aware of what is going on - especially in  'subtle realms' .

 

That’s actually very gentle. Leonard Cohen doesn’t pull his punches on this one. 

 

 

[helpfuldemon]

There is no protection against magick, either it influences you or it doesnt, it depends upon your makeup.  If someones got a bead on you, its their perogative to make use of it or not, and your obligation to defend against their intention or not.

[S:C]

54 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

no protection

 

54 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

to defend against

this seems contradictory. and you don't give a plausible reason why.

 

I prefer the extreme ownership approach: whatever is in my life is there for a reason, and even if it is that I have a faint resonance for it, e.g. wanting to have that experience, even despite it being against my truthful will and benefit. If I got myself into a bad situation, I can get myself out of it, or die trying.

 

The ignorance of the consequences or indifference of non-acting despite realizing the infringement seems to be a sin towards the higher Self of the person. Even if unaware, that's what I dreamt, when I fell asleep while listening to music last time.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by questionmark
clarity

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, questionmark said:

Thank you again for your answer, @Nungali!

 

I'm not at all tuned into this, I'm quite blind concerning those subtler levels. Just on few days, - where there's some astrological transit emphasis on my natal Neptun etc. - I do get different dreams at night than usual. Else, those outer planets effects (and levels) are mostly hidden or - well overshadowed by the others. (Although dreams have usually always been helpful to me, those times now I sometimes have to check, - oh yes, it really was just a surreal dream - - uff! ).

 

That's why I prefer psychology, science, proof, perceivable cause and effect, laws of nature instead of tricks and - for me - unexplainable, might those be simple manipulation or subtler. However there's times, when I feel intuitively that I'd have like to have an explanation for some of the things I do not understand (...)

as there's something that's going wrong, and it's not wrong because of me or my perception. Like the cases I wrote about, and some other experiences. My mind strongly overwrites those as figments of imagination and oversensitivity of the senses. Maybe Occam's razor is the best solution here, - unaware stupidity (like the assault case) of people is simply awful! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor) Worse might be only aware stupidity and hurtfullness.

 

It might very well be all there, but you cannot fight with monsters you don't see? And the occult isn't really my choice of playground. For now I go with Ronald Weasley, - I'd rather like to chase butterflies than spiders (if I have to chase anything at all) and so I'll stick with the advice in 1 + 2 (preliminary research and getting to know myself better). I might get back to you about that topic at some time, thanks!

 

 

 

 

Re the bolded bit above . Read up on the Wiki article on NLP , its heavily debunked there .

 

(not that I am suggesting fake stuff will NOT work on the susceptible - it will .)

 

Also, I tend not to deal with things as valid if they are NOT  a  'law of nature' . If I examine something and I cant see it is a reflection of the laws of nature , then I throw it out as some aberrant construct of the human mind .

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Yueya said:

 

That’s actually very gentle. Leonard Cohen doesn’t pull his punches on this one. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow  !   ... just  wow  .....

 

I was  gentle about something !  ?   

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

There is no protection against magick, either it influences you or it doesnt, it depends upon your makeup.  If someones got a bead on you, its their perogative to make use of it or not, and your obligation to defend against their intention or not.

 

You are sooo confused  (about a lot of stuff) .

 

You state there is no protection against it  and in the next sentence talk about defending against it .

[helpfuldemon]

Thats just it, Magick is illusion; it is the imagination of the individual.  BUT it is a motive that sparks the individual into action, and in that sense, there is no defense against the initiation of action from Magick, except to be of no interest to the magician.  When the action is initiated, you take steps to defend against the action if so desired.

[Nungali]

2 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

Thats just it, Magick is illusion; it is the imagination of the individual.  BUT it is a motive that sparks the individual into action, and in that sense, there is no defense against the initiation of action from Magick, except to be of no interest to the magician.  When the action is initiated, you take steps to defend against the action if so desired.

 

Nope , totally wrong !

 

If you are going to use  the 'Magick word'  it does have a specific definition  ... and yours is NOT it .

 

and the rest  your post is confused and contradictory .

[helpfuldemon]

Nope!  Im totally right!  Everything you think you feel is an illusion of the self, and only you know it and feel it.  There is no Magick, its a mental illness, a side effect of having an intellect and imagination.

[Earl Grey]

2 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Nope!  Im totally right!  Everything you think you feel is an illusion of the self, and only you know it and feel it.  There is no Magick, its a mental illness, a side effect of having an intellect and imagination.

 

Some snippets of wisdom from Robert Anton Wilson, formerly used as a personal reminder in my old signature:

 

"Everyone has a belief system, B.S., the trick is to learn not to take anyone's B.S. too seriously, especially your own."

"Of course I’m crazy, but that doesn’t mean that I’m wrong."

"Only the madman is absolutely sure."

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Nope!  Im totally right!  Everything you think you feel is an illusion of the self, and only you know it and feel it.  There is no Magick, its a mental illness, a side effect of having an intellect and imagination.

 

But you are the one yourself that talks about having a mental illness .

 

I listened, smiling , once to a Buddhist Monk that gave a great little talk to me on "Everything you think you feel is an illusion of the self, and only you know it and feel it.  "   I nodded in agreement  and then added " Of course, there is the question of 'consensual reality. ' "

 

- and then he began smiling .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_reality