How does one recognize a decent TCM practitioner?

[S:C]

I'd like to know what would be important for you when you choose a TCM practitioner!

Are there specific qualifications you'd deem important and which one are those, how important are international recognized qualifications, does there have to be specific techniques? Is acupuncture always necessary or are there some who (seem to) only deal with decoction (extracted boiled herbs)? 

 

Would be great to get some helpful insight! Thanks!

 

 

[Nungali]

'When' you choose is tricky .  I go on feeling, others recommendation, etc .

 

During first consultation I find easier  ( and one can then decide to continue  or change to another ) .  For me, how I could tell was ; I say nothing , and if they are good THEY can tell me what my symptoms are .

 

As opposed to a western doctor , who when I told him my symptoms   raised his eyebrows and said  "I dont think so . "  

[S:C]

Should they practice only TCM?
Those I come above, - not tried yet - either just stopped practicing last year or do a mix sort of.

I did stumble upon an indian acupuncturist - haven't tried that either - and someone who only sells ten obligatory sessions priced more than double on what I pay monthly rent.
 

47 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 how I could tell was ; I say nothing , and if they are good THEY can tell me what my symptoms are .

that would be impressive indeed!

48 minutes ago, Nungali said:

raised his eyebrows and said  "I dont think so .

Edited December 13, 2021 by questionmark

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, questionmark said:

Should they practice only TCM?
Those I come above, - not tried yet - either just stopped practicing last year or do a mix sort of.

I did stumble upon an indian acupuncturist - haven't tried that either - and someone who only sells ten obligatory sessions priced more than double on what I pay monthly rent.

 

I had a great Hippy Doctor for years , fully qualified GP and in TCM . I found it good and him great .

 

Dr. " Let's get some moxa going , first off . "

 

Me; " I am having moxa ? "

 

Dr;  "No, it's to cover up the smell of this joint we are about to smoke . "

 

 

 

Quote

that would be impressive indeed!

 

Should be standard practice , in my understanding of it .

Edited December 14, 2021 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Although .....

 

They might have been questions and it was an issue of language - 

 

English Question :  " Do you often wake up in the middle of  the night between 3 and 4 am ?

 

Chinese speaking English same question :  " You wake  up ,  middle  of night , 3 - 4 am ? "    sounds like a statement .

 

- In my case , he got all the 'questions ' right . 

 

So I suppose , one that asks questions about your symptoms and your  answers are  yes.

[freeform]

The big red flag:

 

they do lots of different therapies - chiropractics, TENS machines, lots of other technological stuff, lots of futuristic sounding therapies… maybe some Botox and lip fillers on the side etc etc. 

 

When you meet them for your first consultation - they should ask a lot of questions about your lifestyle, food etc. look at your tongue, take your pulse, make notes.

 

If you ask them for the Chinese medicine diagnosis they should be able to give you one. Always ask - and take a note yourself.

 

During treatment - a good sign is if they don’t use the plastic tube guides on the needles as they insert… (though plastic guides is common practice unfortunately these days) another good sign is that they take their time with each insertion. They should not be using more than a few points at one time. They should be taking your pulse regularly throughout the treatment.

 

After the treatment you should feel good - not spaced out or high or extremely relaxed… you should feel generally well and with some energy… It shouldn’t feel extreme in any way (extremely relaxed or extremely energetic etc) If you ask they should have a general plan for the next few treatments.

 

Its very unusual for one treatment to sort everything out - so expect to have a course of treatments… though locking you into 10 treatments without allowing you to see how they work is a bit of a red flag… unless they are exceptionally good, well renowned and with a very good reputation and with lots of clients - and so they just don’t have the time for the curious dabblers… 

[S:C]

13 hours ago, Nungali said:

" You wake  up ,  middle  of night , 3 - 4 am ? "

interesting, that this is considered a symptom !

so you hopefully did find out what caused that?

 

9 hours ago, freeform said:

without allowing you to see how they work

So there's practically no way of checking how good they are before I signed their treaty and agreed to be needled?

Apart from going through their CV, see whether they did the A + B diploma of acupuncture, how long they have already practiced? Most have an allopathic medicine doctorate as main business.

There would probably a higher chance of competence if they grew up with the culture - have asian background, no? Or not necessarily?

 

[freeform]

56 minutes ago, questionmark said:

So there's practically no way of checking how good they are before I signed their treaty and agreed to be needled?

i assume you’d be able to talk to them before agreeing to a session - I’d start there… see if you like the person first ask about their approach, ask what a session involves what other therapies they do etc…

 

58 minutes ago, questionmark said:

There would probably a higher chance of competence if they grew up with the culture - have asian background, no? Or not necessarily?

Not necessarily.

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, questionmark said:

interesting, that this is considered a symptom !

 

Well,  an 'indication'  perhaps ;

 

 

 

2 hours ago, questionmark said:

so you hopefully did find out what caused that?

 

It started as heat rash , working  away from home in very hot and humid environment  .  I had to take time off work , told boss I got heat rash  he said,  "Go away ! It might be infectious ...go to doc  and dont just go to the beach instead ! " 

 

.  I had to go to 3 different ones ; the first was a normal MD  but he was weird ,   seemed to think I got a rash from jail junkies or something     " I have seen a lot of this in jail ,  have you been taking heroin ? "   WTF ?  outa there !

 

Tried another one -  the sign out the front said something like   Dr Zkykylnskylovky .    He was short squat arrogant and ugly . really obnoxious .   He scribbled out a script and grunted  "Put this on it . "

 

So I held the script against the rash and go  " It isnt working . "    ... and the idiot goes  "  No ... take to chemist and give that to him , he will give you ointment and you put THAT on rash . "

 

Me :  "  Oooooooh !   okay then . "  

 

Finally I went to TCM doc , after much  ado   ( man, so funny, I will post it later , short for time now )  he finally does all this stuff , gives me pills for it , Me; " But what is it ? "

 

TCM Doc  ;  " Heat rash ."

 

Which is what I said I had in the first place   

 

 

2 hours ago, questionmark said:

 

So there's practically no way of checking how good they are before I signed their treaty and agreed to be needled?

Apart from going through their CV, see whether they did the A + B diploma of acupuncture, how long they have already practiced? Most have an allopathic medicine doctorate as main business.

There would probably a higher chance of competence if they grew up with the culture - have asian background, no? Or not necessarily?

 

 

[Bhathen]

Indian acupuncturists who usually have a diploma or certification don't seem to have a comprehensive understanding of the system. Would prefer a TCM doctor instead.

 

The TCM acupuncturist I have gone to, fixes the issues of most of his patients with 2 or 3 sessions.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Bhathen

[Indiken]

@freeform

 

I have a crude understanding, but will try my best to ask.

 

Do TCM theory and Daoist Alchemical theory are based on different grounds?

 

Is knowledge of TCM useful if I intend to practice Daoist Alchemy?

[freeform]

10 hours ago, Indiken said:

Do TCM theory and Daoist Alchemical theory are based on different grounds?

They're certainly interrelated and based on the same cosmological principles. Alchemy is the source of these. But because Chinese arts are so context dependent, there are major fundamental differences. Nei Dan is concerned with spiritual transformation and Chinese Medicine is concerned with harmonising pathogenic processes.

 

10 hours ago, Indiken said:

Is knowledge of TCM useful if I intend to practice Daoist Alchemy?

Yes and no. Sometimes people plug their gaps in alchemical knowledge with information from medicine - and this always creates problems.

 

Equally, genuine Nei Dan practitioners would do well to use Chinese medicine principles to understand things that go wrong.

 

But it’s not a must. Chinese medicine is a huge topic. If you have access to a decent practitioner you don’t need to study it I would say.

[Seeking]

Don't say a word.

 

Stick out your tongue, let them feel your pulse, maybe check your eyes and then compare what they offer with your actual state of dysfunction at the present moment. If they get 80% of the way there you've got a good un. Also the best TCM practitioners tend not to leave China as they have no need to. Those that do are often the dregs or ones who couldn't make it in competition with the locals so they hop on a plane to feel tall in a land of mental midgets where the populace lack the wherewithal and experience to question their methods.

[S:C]

He has decades of experience and still let me talk a lot.

Then giving a (rather vague) diagnosis, concerning the weakness of two organs.

Had roughly 8-10 needles for 20 minutes, - when I asked which, - he named one meridian, but explained that he didn't learn the system with numbers like Du3 or BL10, but the original system in China which has specific names in chinese.

He said he'd try that one meridian first, if the body does regulate itself, - if that wouldn't work, he'd needle a meridian, where the body would 'force itself'.

My age seemed to amuse him, also my interest in his work he seemed to find rather peculiar (obviously nobody asks as many questions as I do in his practice...)

 

There was no pulse taking during the treatment, but warming lamps.
I didn't feel anything during the treatment. At night it seemed like I had some phantom needles at points he hadn't needled at all!
 

On 14.12.2021 at 10:47 PM, Nungali said:

heat rash

What you mean is, you had a skin reaction to heat inside your body?

This is interesting.

 

On 14.12.2021 at 10:47 PM, Nungali said:

;

 

 

 

So, if I wake up a lot between 3-4 a.m. in the morning, without knowing why, this does tell me, I need to detox my liver and blood? Or how can I interpret this, really? Thanks!

Edited January 1, 2022 by questionmark

[Geof Nanto]

@questionmark

 

Maybe try shiatsu. It has the same goal of harmonising meridian qi flow imbalances as TCM but is far more hands on. When I was younger I worked for a while as a shiatsu practitioner and I’ve posted something I wrote about it in the Healing Circle here. I think it could be far more effective for you, provided you can find a practitioner you feel very comfortable with.  

[Michael Sternbach]

On 13.12.2021 at 9:53 PM, questionmark said:

I'd like to know what would be important for you when you choose a TCM practitioner!

Are there specific qualifications you'd deem important and which one are those, how important are international recognized qualifications, does there have to be specific techniques? Is acupuncture always necessary or are there some who (seem to) only deal with decoction (extracted boiled herbs)? 

 

Would be great to get some helpful insight! Thanks!

 

 

 

It's easy!

 

You get better: They are good for you! 😊

 

You get worse/die: They are (were) not good for you!* 🙁

 

It's as simple as that, really.

 

*At any rate, not good enough!

[freeform]

15 hours ago, questionmark said:

Had roughly 8-10 needles

I’m no expert, but my teacher is - and I’ve never seen more than 5 needles used… usually 3 or less.

 

15 hours ago, questionmark said:

Then giving a (rather vague) diagnosis, concerning the weakness of two organs.

Maybe you could ask for him to write the diagnosis down for you. It should not be vague (though Chinese medicine diagnosis sounds weird from a western perspective).

 

15 hours ago, questionmark said:

There was no pulse taking during the treatment,

What about before and after?

 

Did he look at your tongue?

[S:C]

14 hours ago, freeform said:

Did he look at your tongue?

yes, for 2 seconds.

14 hours ago, freeform said:

What about before and after

just before

 

he didn't say that much but asked a lot of questions about what the allopathic/western medicine found out (nothing much that I didn't know, despite MRT + ultrasonics + blood level tests having been made.)

 

15 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

You get worse/die: They are (were) not good for you!

great, now you make me wonder why I should interfere with the natural way of life at all.

 

On 1.1.2022 at 11:25 PM, Yueya said:

you can find a practitioner

that alone might be quite challenging.

 

 

edit: are there any contraindications, where one definitly shouldn't see a TCM practicioneer?

(just found pregnancy, seizure disorder (as in epilepsy?), skin disease etc.)

Edited January 3, 2022 by questionmark

[freeform]

3 hours ago, questionmark said:

just before

The pulse tells the acupuncturist what’s going on… so they check many times - before, during and certainly after treatment - to get feedback on what’s happened as a result of their work…

 

3 hours ago, questionmark said:

asked a lot of questions about what the allopathic/western medicine found out

Generally a TCM doctor should be asking about your lifestyle to understand the various influences upon your inner health.

 

The diagnosis from a western medical perspective should only be of minor interest.

 

I’d suggest seeing if you can find another practitioner.

[Trunk]

On 12/13/2021 at 12:53 PM, questionmark said:

I'd like to know what would be important for you when you choose a TCM practitioner!

 

If acupuncture is involved (some people just do herbs), then I choose anyone who does the Japanese style of Kiiko Matsumoto.

10 times more effective than 'regular' acupuncture, with very reliable protocol that checks your own body's reactions to point selection (before the needle goes in).  I've looked around for quite a long time, and have friends who are doctors of Ch medicine.  Once I discovered a practitioner doing Kiiko's method, I was shocked at how much more effective it was.

 

Anything else is a tough call, hard to judge up front, imo.  Just have to go by results.  (or recommendation from someone you know & trust - still it's dicey).

[S:C]

Thanks for that hint, @Trunk! With those keywords I might have found someone, with whom I'd feel comfortable with. Although it might take me a while to get there!

 

This

On 2.1.2022 at 10:46 AM, Michael Sternbach said:

You get worse/die: They are (were) not good for you!* 🙁

and this

On 2.1.2022 at 11:43 PM, freeform said:

suggest seeing if you can find another

made me wonder, if there can be also harm in seeing a practitioneer, who might - get you wrong or treat the wrong acupuncture points... If the method has the possibility do good, it also has the possibility to do harm, of course.

 

On 2.1.2022 at 11:24 AM, freeform said:

diagnosis (...) should not be vague

If the diagnosis would be a "kidney weakness on both sides" and "heart being out of balance / energy", - is that sufficient?

 

He said he would go for the general meridian (on the back - Du  meridian) and the bladder meridian first. If that wouldnt help, he'd go for the kidneys and heart more directly. He couldn't tell me the numbers of the meridians, as he learned the points by their chinese names (...)

 

 

He also said, the wouldn't needle more than the chosen points, because If he did, I might not come back.

 

 

Is there some inital aggravation like in homeopathy common?

 

 

Is the phantom needle phenomenon a common one? Does it say anything if and how the needling worked?

 

He didn't use plastic tubes to insert the needles, but checked the skin for how deep the needles should go.

 

Of course it's weird to cast doubt about someones expertise who is in the field for several decades. (I know.)

Just don't know if I feel fit for the follow up acupuncture session as previously arranged last time and whether that might kick me outta balance even more. Or whether I should wait (a few weeks) and take the time to see the one with the japanese style?

Thoughts?

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by questionmark
blabbering

[freeform]

1 hour ago, questionmark said:

If the diagnosis would be a "kidney weakness on both sides" and "heart being out of balance / energy", - is that sufficient?

Well your therapist might be ‘dumbing it down’ for you - but I’d expect a more classical diagnosis.

 

I’d expect to hear about the state of the Yin and Yang for each organ, the blood and qi aspect of each organ… the pathogenic qualities in the system (such as ‘empty heat’… cold, damp, phlegm, wind, water etc etc).

 

Its a bit of a balancing act because not every therapist works in the same way.

 

The main red flag for me is that he’s not taking pulses during and after treatment. When he says ‘if treatment A doesn’t work, I’ll do treatment B’ - the way to know if it worked is to check your pulses.

 

But then again, that’s only one red flag amongst many… so it’s not too bad  

 

As I say, different therapists work in different ways. For a true master of the art, I wouldn’t question their methods which can appear almost miraculous and not fit into the common understanding of Classical Chinese medicine.

 

For instance I’ve seen my teacher taking pulses and then telling the patient that he needs to go and restore his relationship with his son…

 

But in other situations he would give specific classical diagnosis like what I explained above.

 

Other times I’ve seen him intently pointing his needle in specific locations inside and even outside the body…

 

I’ve seen him massage one lady’s feet and what proceeded was kind of like how exorcisms are portrayed in films…

 

[S:C]

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

expect to hear about the state of the Yin and Yang for each organ, the blood and qi aspect of each organ… the pathogenic qualities in the system (such as ‘empty heat’… cold, damp, phlegm, wind, water etc etc).

sad! I didn't get that.

 

Our diagnosis session was interrupted at least five times with the telephone ringing (I don't know if his secretary was ill or something, he seemed comfortable / habituated doing that all by himself.)

and him running towards the alarm clock, to take out the needles of some other patient.

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

even outside the body…

 

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

how exorcisms are portrayed in films…

never watched one of these... should I?

Edited January 4, 2022 by questionmark

[freeform]

33 minutes ago, questionmark said:

never watched one of these... should I?

😂 probably not 

[S:C]

Great! I made someone laugh, - again.

Well, if anyone has something to add about TCM - feel free to do so.