Is it possible to not fear death, and yet not want to die?

[Shadao]

I ask because I sometimes think of this, of my death(no, I am not depressive or anything, I am just really thinking of it from a logical perspective: that until someone figures out a way to be immortal physically, we all will die one day) and I tend to try to see "Death" not as this "end of all" nor as "something to be feared".

 

Yeah, the uncertainty of the unknown is scary, and no way in hell I want to suffer in any way before and/or during my physical death, but I think I learned to develop a mindset of not fearing death itself.

It kinda helps when you start to question reality, existence and consciousness and the lack of it all.

 

Still, is it possible to not fear death, and yet have a desire to not die?

 

I think the truly worst of death is that once your body dies, all possibilities of things you could do or be are just gone.

Sure you can "re-start" with a new life, but it is so wasteful to die young...

[freeform]

10 hours ago, Shadao said:

I think I learned to develop a mindset of not fearing death itself.

Its one of those theoretical things that can only be tested by a real, visceral possibility of imminent death. 

Surviving a car crash, experiencing some catastrophic disaster or being shot at - suddenly a part of you that you’re not accustomed to takes centre stage and your philosophy is tested by the much deeper and more powerful animal instinct to avoid death.

 

I think it’s healthy to test that once in a while  

 

Maybe not by placing yourself in danger - but there are spiritual practices that feel like imminent annihilation is on the cards.

[Shadao]

55 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I think it’s healthy to test that once in a while

...Ok, time to go...

56 minutes ago, freeform said:

Maybe not by placing yourself in danger

...not.

To be fair though, what I believe I fear isn't much death, but suffering/feeling pain before/while dying...dieing...dying?

 

57 minutes ago, freeform said:

there are spiritual practices that feel like imminent annihilation is on the cards.

...could you mention the name of a few of them?

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Shadao said:

...could you mention the name of a few of them?

Meditation

 

Hopefully not in your average community centre mindfulness class though

 

Some of the Tibetan and more shamanic traditions have this in a much more direct way (I’m sure fellow bums with a lot more experience in these paths could help).

 

In Daoist alchemy we generally aim for harmony rather than catharsis or extreme experiences - but they certainly do happen spontaneously. There’s also a lot of physical and psychological suffering with many of the practices.

 

2 hours ago, Shadao said:

To be fair though, what I believe I fear isn't much death, but suffering/feeling pain before/while dying

Yeah I do understand. I used to think this until I had a very close call… and when imminent death is very much a real thing right there about to take you - there’s something deeper and more fundamental than belief or thought that makes itself apparent.

 

After that I’ve started to notice how there’s an undercurrent of this fear of death that motivates much of my behaviour.

 

But things do change… on a second close call instead of fear I had a moment of great clarity and strength…

 

So I think it’s good to experience this - it just shines a light on a part of you that’s more ancient than your rational mind.

[Vajra Fist]

I had a brush with death a few years back when I had cancer. I remember standing outside the hospital after my operation, and it started snowing. 

 

I was listening to this beautiful song:

 

 

And watching the snow fall, and it really struck me how grateful I was to be alive, yet at the same time how comfortable I now was with my mortality. I think an understanding of impermanence is often something that enriches one's life, rather than having the opposite effect.

 

In the Theravada tradition, there is a practice called maranasati, or mindfulness of death. Buddha apparently took his disciples to meditate in graveyards. Here's a specific guided meditation on this principle.

 

https://insighttimer.com/peacebeyondsuffering/guided-meditations/charnal-ground-meditation

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

14 hours ago, Shadao said:

Still, is it possible to not fear death, and yet have a desire to not die?

No. If you truly have overcome fear of death, you also must have overcome the desire for this or that. 

14 hours ago, Shadao said:

 

I think the truly worst of death is that once your body dies, all possibilities of things you could do or be are just gone.

Sure you can "re-start" with a new life, but it is so wasteful to die young...

Yes, it is indeed wasteful to die without realizing your True Nature. Once you realize your True Nature, you will no longer fear (period), and neither will you cling to/run away from anything that arises in your experience. 

[Vajra Fist]

10 minutes ago, dwai said:

14 hours ago, Shadao said:

Still, is it possible to not fear death, and yet have a desire to not die?

No. If you truly have overcome fear of death, you also must have overcome the desire for this or that. 

 

Very important distinction here between "fearing death" and "appreciating life". I believe its possible to experience overwhelming joy at the simple fact of being alive, and yet not have the clinging to that experience, or the fear of death.  

[Creation]

18 hours ago, Shadao said:

I ask because I sometimes think of this, of my death(no, I am not depressive or anything, I am just really thinking of it from a logical perspective: that until someone figures out a way to be immortal physically, we all will die one day) and I tend to try to see "Death" not as this "end of all" nor as "something to be feared".

 

Yeah, the uncertainty of the unknown is scary, and no way in hell I want to suffer in any way before and/or during my physical death, but I think I learned to develop a mindset of not fearing death itself.

It kinda helps when you start to question reality, existence and consciousness and the lack of it all.

 

Still, is it possible to not fear death, and yet have a desire to not die?

 

I think the truly worst of death is that once your body dies, all possibilities of things you could do or be are just gone.

Sure you can "re-start" with a new life, but it is so wasteful to die young...

No answer for you atm, but I wanted to mention the synchronicity of this post for me, thoughts like this have been prominent for me in the past day.

[wstein]

Absolutely possible to not fear something yet still have a strong preference about it.

Fear is an emotional response and all emotions are independent of any situation (even if they are in response to it).

Separate from emotions, you can have concern, desire, preference, or addiction to something as they are not emotions.

 

So yes, you can desire or want for life without fear of losing it.

[Shadao]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

Hopefully not in your average community centre mindfulness class though

 

Yeah I have no desire to go to one of those, but I also think there isn't one where I live either so...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

6 hours ago, freeform said:

when imminent death is very much a real thing right there about to take you - there’s something deeper and more fundamental than belief or thought that makes itself apparent

I'm between wanting to experience such, but at the same time, not...oh the dichotomy, or is it a paradox?...

 

6 hours ago, freeform said:

on a second close call

Now I wonder what kind of life you have to brush with death so frequently...

5 hours ago, dwai said:

No. If you truly have overcome fear of death, you also must have overcome the desire for this or that. 

But this would be according to Buddhist belief?

Also, I just want to make clear that I am not buddhist.

 

5 hours ago, dwai said:

Once you realize your True Nature, you will no longer fear (period), and neither will you cling to/run away from anything that arises in your experience

Not gonna lie, I did like this part.

 

5 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

I believe its possible to experience overwhelming joy at the simple fact of being alive, and yet not have the clinging to that experience, or the fear of death

This was, more or less, what I was thinking when I wrote this post.

1 hour ago, Creation said:

No answer for you atm, but I wanted to mention the synchronicity of this post for me, thoughts like this have been prominent for me in the past day.

If I believed in signs I would say this is the universe trying to tell you something.

 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Shadao said:

But this would be according to Buddhist belief?

Also, I just want to make clear that I am not buddhist.

There is no “Buddhist/daoist/*ist” True Nature. There is only True Nature  

Edited December 15, 2021 by dwai

[Indiken]

7 hours ago, Shadao said:

Yeah I have no desire to go to one of those, but I also think there isn't one where I live either so...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Are you me?

 

Quote

I'm between wanting to experience such, but at the same time, not...oh the dichotomy, or is it a paradox?...

 

You are progressing, without progressing.

 

Quote

Now I wonder what kind of life you have to brush with death so frequently...

But this would be according to Buddhist belief?

Also, I just want to make clear that I am not buddhist.

 

I am trollist.

 

Quote

If I believed in signs I would say this is the universe trying to tell you something.

 

Everything are signs, Nothing are signs, which is better?

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Indiken

[freeform]

7 hours ago, Shadao said:

I'm between wanting to experience such, but at the same time, not...oh the dichotomy, or is it a paradox?...

Haha - well give some action sports a go maybe… some sky diving or paragliding or something

 

Or apparently even just some stand up comedy at an open mic works too!

 

7 hours ago, Shadao said:

Now I wonder what kind of life you have to brush with death so frequently...

Growing up poor in a country with lots of earthquakes and war helped to get those first few close calls under my belt. Riding bikes on dirt roads all over Asia and pissing off the local gangsters earned me my next few close calls.

 

13 hours ago, dwai said:

Once you realize your True Nature, you will no longer fear (period), and neither will you cling to/run away from anything that arises in your experience. 

Indeed. And this no-preference state is better tested when a loved one is in imminent danger. Though it’s a test I hope no one would have to experience.

[Eduardo]

According to Patanjali’s Yoga Sutra 2.9, the fear of death pervades all aspects of human consciousness. 

Nobody wants to die, even the wisest keep in their hearts the attachment to life. It is instinctive, normal and natural. People tend to avoid talking about the subject, even some groups of Taoists were prohibited talking about death at night.

Words often evoke, call, attract.

 

[dwai]

 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Indeed. And this no-preference state is better tested when a loved one is in imminent danger. Though it’s a test I hope no one would have to experience.

No preference doesn’t mean no action though. In my experience, this no preference results in correct and timely action when necessary. 

[Master Logray]

On 12/14/2021 at 1:33 PM, Shadao said:

I ask because I sometimes think of this, of my death(no, I am not depressive or anything, I am just really thinking of it from a logical perspective: that until someone figures out a way to be immortal physically, we all will die one day) and I tend to try to see "Death" not as this "end of all" nor as "something to be feared".

 

Yeah, the uncertainty of the unknown is scary, and no way in hell I want to suffer in any way before and/or during my physical death, but I think I learned to develop a mindset of not fearing death itself.

It kinda helps when you start to question reality, existence and consciousness and the lack of it all.

 

Still, is it possible to not fear death, and yet have a desire to not die?

 

I think the truly worst of death is that once your body dies, all possibilities of things you could do or be are just gone.

Sure you can "re-start" with a new life, but it is so wasteful to die young...

 

 

Nowadays people don't fear death that much.  What is scarier than death?  the pre-death!   It usually last about few months to 10 years before death.  With the aging society, people see the horror of getting aged, losing of basic physical functions, all sorts of sicknesses, incessant physical pain, huge medical and care expenses, distancing of family, friends, losing dignity and basic care in facilities.  I am talking about advanced and well-off societies.   In many occasions, when this issue was discussed, many older persons just don't want a longer life.  They want to die when they are still not that old. 

 

Death is still feared for the actual moment of it and leaving behind persons, achievements, wishes. 

 

 

[freeform]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

 

No preference doesn’t mean no action though. In my experience, this no preference results in correct and timely action when necessary. 

Yes - indeed, without emotion clouding things, action taken can be a lot more efficient. If there’s action to be taken at all.

 

But often we think we’ve overcome fear completely - and then a loved one gets a life threatening illness or is hurt or attacked or something, and we discover that there definitely is still preference and clinging after-all. Certainly been the case for me.

 

[dwai]

30 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yes - indeed, without emotion clouding things, action taken can be a lot more efficient. If there’s action to be taken at all.

Well said! 

Quote

 

But often we think we’ve overcome fear completely - and then a loved one gets a life threatening illness or is hurt or attacked or something, and we discover that there definitely is still preference and clinging after-all. Certainly been the case for me.

 

I understand. I’ve heard the following (and variations thereof) many times over — 

 

“So will someone who has no preferences (in context of this discussion ) not do anything to save their loved one? Will they not feel the pain/suffering of another?”

 

The answer is, of course they will try to save their loved one. That is called duty/responsibility and love. And certainly will feel the pain/suffering of another. That is called empathy.  The constitute what one could call the “human dharma”. 
 

Often what is blurred (in gen pop) is the line between empathy, love and duty/responsibility and clinging attachment. 
 

I’d written this article which explores what love is in the nondual context that some might find interesting 

—

 https://www.medhajournal.com/non-dual-awareness-is-without-attributes-but-what-about-love/

Edited December 15, 2021 by dwai

[Shadao]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

well give some action sports a go maybe… some sky diving or paragliding or something

I'm not rich, the most I can do is probably parkour

 

And comedy isn't a strong point of mine, but I guess that acting with improvisation or doing a performance in a public space(I'm a performing arts student, so this isn't uncommon) can work in place of stand-up comedy.

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

then a loved one gets a life threatening illness or is hurt or attacked or something, and we discover that there definitely is still preference and clinging after-all.

When I first mentioned "lack of fear of death" I mentioned only towards myself.

I still very much fear the death of those close to me, and this one I'm sure will be very hard to get over.

 

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Shadao said:

When I first mentioned "lack of fear of death" I mentioned only towards myself.

Yeah… it’s a funny thing - but the esoteric view is that other people are also ‘yourself’. 

[silent thunder]

Potent question.

In my case, the answer is an unequivocal yes.

I was fortunate in that my first cognizant memory in this life was an out of body experience.

 

It was induced by a powerful dream and resulted in my awareness hovering over my sleeping body and watching it for a time.

 

 This revealed, before I even had a concept of death, that my body was not the center of my beingness.

Awareness is home.  Awareness is not body dependent, but the body tunes the awareness to certain frequencies.  At most, the body while awareness roamed free of it, seemed akin to a very loved coat.  Special, incredibly comfortable... but just a coat in the end.

As a result, there has never been any fear of losing this body, or of this body's eventual decay.  This does not result in a longing for death.  (that has arisen and faded on its own as my path led to the nights of darkness).

But there is no worry or fret over it. 

 

The only teeth seemingly remaining in death lies in the passing of those treasured and deeply beloved.  So many friends and family lost takes a toll, but even this shines with joy greater than grief.  For in their passing, my joy at knowing that throughout the infinite boiling seas of this 14.7 billion year universe... I had the uncanny good fortune to have met, loved and was loved by such hearts and minds.

 

Treasure of treasures.

[Shadao]

18 hours ago, freeform said:

Yeah… it’s a funny thing - but the esoteric view is that other people are also ‘yourself’. 

Isn't this view more of the so called "right hand path" though, rather than of all "esoteric world"?

11 hours ago, silent thunder said:

It was induced by a powerful dream and resulted in my awareness hovering over my sleeping body and watching it for a time.

Astral projection?This reminded me when I(years ago) somehow ended up sleeping in class and AP'd...I knew what it was when it happened(because back then I already searched such subjects) so I wasn't spooked(because I was no more than barely a teenager) but to this day I still do not know how it happened spontaneously...

 

Or is it something different from AP?

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Shadao said:

Isn't this view more of the so called "right hand path" though, rather than of all "esoteric world"?

Not sure?
 

I don’t really know what ‘the right hand path’ means.

 

It’s the view of the teachers I’ve studied with - a couple of Buddhist lines and two Daoist ones. (Though I’ve come across many teachers and practitioners that didn’t have this distinction - generally this group were not far down the spiritual aspects of their path - or were ‘hobby practitioners’)

 

The underlying principle is that although the world is composed of various beings and manifestations, we only ever experience them as reflections within ourself… 

[rsalazar]

Fascinating question.

I always try to remind myself of all those in much more unfortunate circumstances worldwide so that I don't waste energy complaining of my relatively minor inconveniences of daily life - I have had glimpses over the years to "close calls" with Death - my earliest was at around 8 years of age where an episode of abnormally long tachycardia had me preparing for death in a bathroom, then another close call at 20 where I was pulled into an undertow, then pulled in a riptide after I reached the surface.  Even with no training at the time, all I could remember is thinking (after I realized I may really pass away here) "Here we go."  No judgement, no expectation, only knowing there would be some sort of transition coming up quickly.

I have further explored my own fear of Death (as far as I could personally) in a 3 year journey into psychedelics to see if these plant medicines made a big difference in my overall range of fears possibly holding me back in normal life.  After about 15 sessions of ayahuasca, 2 sessions of Bufo alvarius (5-MEO  DMT), 18 sessions of sapo (non-hallucinogenic, but feels like you are dying nonetheless), as well as mushrooms and pure DMT, I have ended this experimentation in favor of maintaining the grind of regular qigong/neigong practice.

All I can say for sure is that after many years of reflection (I'm about to turn 54) I still would love to live out as much as I can while I'm here, to be as useful as I can.  I think that Death is what it is, it will be for all of us.  I don't know if I have actually extinguished all levels of fear, at least as much as I can self-perceive.  All remaining ego will always keep you tied to some level of fear of death as long as you live as a "regular" human, in my opinion.

Just my 1 cent view

[Iliketurtles]

You should look into cryonics  it only costs $30,000.00 USD if you are able to arrange body of the transport yourself, but significantly more if require a third party to transport. 

 

The idea is that when you die, you will be cryogenically frozen, and kept that way until such a time as technology has advanced enough to repair all the damage to your body. 

 

Surely WWIII might destroy the place your body was kept, or society at large might implode due to climate or other natural disaster. 

 

A lot of people scoff at the idea, but ultimately it will either work or it won't. 

 

If your plane is crashing and all you've got is an new experimental untested prototype parachute, or nothing at all why not give it a shot?

The future is uncertain, but in my book you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, and life is always worth a shot. 

 

https://www.cryonics.org/membership/

Edited January 3, 2022 by Iliketurtles