Is it possible to not fear death, and yet not want to die?

[old3bob]

seeing death die is revealing...the tough old nut is cracked.  

 

(one might consider checking out the Katha Upanishad)

Edited January 3, 2022 by old3bob

[Earl Grey]

On 12/16/2021 at 2:32 AM, Shadao said:

I'm not rich, the most I can do is probably parkour

 

And comedy isn't a strong point of mine, but I guess that acting with improvisation or doing a performance in a public space(I'm a performing arts student, so this isn't uncommon) can work in place of stand-up comedy.

 

I did parkour when I lived in L.A. Fine people they are; very welcoming to traceurs of all ages and ability at PKLA, which led to the group Parkour Generations (I think) and their performance on America's Best Dance Crew. Of course, living in L.A. I did some industry work too, but ended up doing more voiceover than film, and didn't do theater.

 

On 12/14/2021 at 1:33 PM, Shadao said:

Still, is it possible to not fear death, and yet have a desire to not die?

 

Yes. I am not afraid of my own death, but I don't want to die because it will affect my loved ones--namely, my dogs, who are basically my daughters, and my cats. Then of course, my own students who have not finished learning everything I teach, and a few more stories I haven't finished writing yet.

 

So yes, my own death doesn't faze me, it just inconveniences me.

 

To quote one of my favorite video games, Metal Gear Solid 4: "I'm not immortal, I just don't fear death."

 

On 12/15/2021 at 4:12 AM, dwai said:

No. If you truly have overcome fear of death, you also must have overcome the desire for this or that. 

 

I don't totally agree. Maybe grasping for outcomes is the attachment issue rather than fear of death. Given I've had a few brushes myself with it from car accidents to taking a piss unknowingly in the middle of a minefield in northern Sri Lanka and nearly falling down a mountain during a storm...

 

On 1/4/2022 at 3:32 AM, Iliketurtles said:

You should look into cryonics  it only costs $30,000.00 USD if you are able to arrange body of the transport yourself, but significantly more if require a third party to transport. 

 

The idea is that when you die, you will be cryogenically frozen, and kept that way until such a time as technology has advanced enough to repair all the damage to your body. 

 

Surely WWIII might destroy the place your body was kept, or society at large might implode due to climate or other natural disaster. 

 

A lot of people scoff at the idea, but ultimately it will either work or it won't. 

 

If your plane is crashing and all you've got is an new experimental untested prototype parachute, or nothing at all why not give it a shot?

The future is uncertain, but in my book you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, and life is always worth a shot. 

 

https://www.cryonics.org/membership/

 

Have you registered for this? Was it worth it for you or anyone you know? Does it give you any confidence or how does it make you feel trying this?

[thelerner]

There's a Vispassana pre-amble to meditation I used to do regularly. 

I am not my thoughts.. they are like clouds passing through.

I am not my body.. I am that which inhabits it

I am not my past.. those old memories and pattern I can choose not to follow

I am not my future..  I am not my emotions, I am not possessions, I am not my family,

I am breath and awareness..

 

reciting that daily helped reconcile me with death.  a bit.  I had an heart stent put in and heard the doctor say 'This isn't going well' and I was able to stay relaxed and see what comes next.  Maybe the drugs helped. Likewise I've had some dreams where I'm dying and was able to surrender into it.  So such things are valuable opportunities.

 

Another interesting meditation is the Tibetan Chod meditation.  Where you sacrifice yourself to a monster.  Kind of the ultimate Metta meditation.  I have a guided version of it and it's powerful in its own way.  Though just a shadow of the full Chod ceremony I expect. 

 

Safety is an illusion, but an important one.  It's nice to be in situations every now and then where your life is in your hands. 

[Shadao]

7 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Another interesting meditation is the Tibetan Chod meditation. 

Ok...

7 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Where you sacrifice yourself to a monster.

 

...WHAT?! ತ_ತ

[Iliketurtles]

2 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

I did parkour when I lived in L.A. Fine people they are; very welcoming to traceurs of all ages and ability at PKLA, which led to the group Parkour Generations (I think) and their performance on America's Best Dance Crew. Of course, living in L.A. I did some industry work too, but ended up doing more voiceover than film, and didn't do theater.

 

 

Yes. I am not afraid of my own death, but I don't want to die because it will affect my loved ones--namely, my dogs, who are basically my daughters, and my cats. Then of course, my own students who have not finished learning everything I teach, and a few more stories I haven't finished writing yet.

 

So yes, my own death doesn't faze me, it just inconveniences me.

 

To quote one of my favorite video games, Metal Gear Solid 4: "I'm not immortal, I just don't fear death."

 

 

I don't totally agree. Maybe grasping for outcomes is the attachment issue rather than fear of death. Given I've had a few brushes myself with it from car accidents to taking a piss unknowingly in the middle of a minefield in northern Sri Lanka and nearly falling down a mountain during a storm...

 

 

Have you registered for this? Was it worth it for you or anyone you know? Does it give you any confidence or how does it make you feel trying this?

 

I'm really not sure what if anything more I can say about it.

 

The future is uncertain, but in my book you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, and life is always worth a shot. 

 

Ultimately you can choose to just lie down and give up or you can choose to fight no matter the odds.

 

I choose to fight.

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, Iliketurtles said:

The future is uncertain, but in my book you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, and life is always worth a shot. 

 

Yeah, I heard you the first time for this part above.

 

4 minutes ago, Iliketurtles said:

Ultimately you can choose to just lie down and give up or you can choose to fight no matter the odds.

 

I choose to fight.

 

Fair enough. I'm reminded of a comedy comic that came out a few years ago, Planet of the Nerds, where three guys from 1988 wake up in 2019 and they have varying reactions, since one is the definitive 80s jock from teen movies of the era, another is black, and the other is a closeted gay, whereas their antagonist who accidentally froze them shows nerds are not necessarily good people and the bullying they got didn't necessarily lead to them becoming the bitter tech barons of today. Worth a read if you want the link.

 

The connection to choosing to fight and wake up in the future again is this: are you in any way afraid or excited about how the world could either be better or worse when you theoretically wake up? I personally would rather be back in the past because the world was a little easier to make sense of even as a latchkey kid playing street hockey with a stack of those AOL free trial discs as our puck.

 

Should you wake up in a future state from your cryo sleep, I wish you the best of luck there and hope you make good on your investment, and not end up like Guy Pierce in Prometheus.

[blue eyed snake]

On 15-12-2021 at 5:22 PM, Master Logray said:

 

 

Nowadays people don't fear death that much.  What is scarier than death?  the pre-death!   It usually last about few months to 10 years before death.  With the aging society, people see the horror of getting aged, losing of basic physical functions, all sorts of sicknesses, incessant physical pain, huge medical and care expenses, distancing of family, friends, losing dignity and basic care in facilities.  I am talking about advanced and well-off societies.   In many occasions, when this issue was discussed, many older persons just don't want a longer life.  They want to die when they are still not that old. 

 

Death is still feared for the actual moment of it and leaving behind persons, achievements, wishes. 

 

 

 

On 16-12-2021 at 3:43 AM, silent thunder said:

 

Awareness is home.  Awareness is not body dependent, but the body tunes the awareness to certain frequencies.  At most, the body while awareness roamed free of it, seemed akin to a very loved coat.  Special, incredibly comfortable... but just a coat in the end.

 

 

 

When pain, sickness and loss of function rule the body without hope of getting better that coat is not comfortable anymore and leaving it behind can becomes an attractive idea.

This can happen  to younger people too although the elderly population that master Logray speaks of is a good and relatable example.

 

 

 

 

[thelerner]

21 hours ago, Shadao said:

Ok...

 

...WHAT?! ತ_ತ

 

I can understand that reaction.  I certainly have dozens of easier, more pleasant meditations.  Yet, the Tibetan's have some interesting practices and perspectives.  I consider this an extreme 'metta' ie loving meditation.  It's easy to love what's nice, harder to love.. the unpleasant. 

I recommend it as something interesting to try.  I use this one and created an mp3 where it began at the start of the guided meditation. 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by thelerner

[Small Fur]

On 12/13/2021 at 9:33 PM, Shadao said:

I ask because I sometimes think of this, of my death(no, I am not depressive or anything, I am just really thinking of it from a logical perspective: that until someone figures out a way to be immortal physically, we all will die one day) and I tend to try to see "Death" not as this "end of all" nor as "something to be feared".

 

Yeah, the uncertainty of the unknown is scary, and no way in hell I want to suffer in any way before and/or during my physical death, but I think I learned to develop a mindset of not fearing death itself.

It kinda helps when you start to question reality, existence and consciousness and the lack of it all.

 

Still, is it possible to not fear death, and yet have a desire to not die?

 

I think the truly worst of death is that once your body dies, all possibilities of things you could do or be are just gone.

Sure you can "re-start" with a new life, but it is so wasteful to die young...

 

 

 

 

When in peace you care deeply about life and death while also willing allowing for life and death, then you will be without concern in life and death. In this peaceful willingness and lack, faith and fate (ming) become an expression from True Consciousness (xing dao) moving through you. In an enlightened cultivation, it manifests in Immortality.

In the most pure sense, there is no waste in having lived nor died at any point in time. Yet on an ordinary level, we can still make every effort to live as inherently, healthfully and consciously as possible. There is great virtue in one whose being is rightful and in such enlightened resonance, it will Consciously affect all forms of states and passages in existence- life and death being only one very small iteration of the mundane form you know now.  (It should also be noted that many people believe they have come to some peace with the idea of death, but this is only intellectual when it is yet that they still have a whole host of other fears in life- fears of each other, fears of living, fears of connection, of suffering, etc,. Therefore, if you examine yourself deeply enough, you will realize, the essence of all fear is the same, and that death is just one of many possible projections but is no different than any other fear yet not overcome. Therefore, when all fear is truly overcome, the spirit will go through the first of many 'little deaths' and begin its process of liberation.)

Part of the Immortal path is this ability to recognize and live harmoniously in these other iterations of energy through other dimensions and states in existence and also beyond existence, but this recognition and being cannot be done if we fear or live in attachment to an idea of self (including the idea that we are alive or dead, and the fear or ideas of what it is to suffer). This is why it is important not to be in fear nor attachment to form or else you will not understand the formless: in that lies the misunderstanding of form itself- as form originates from gradations and iterations of formlessness.

 

Immortality is then, fundamentally a state of Consciousness as wisdom whose last most iteration is expressed in form, and form then, is in a sense, Immortality's most trite state even if it represents the whole of a completion. People only marvel at the thought because they think they know form and believe in its concrete apparitations, but they do not understand (nor often care for enough about*) what it is to have a heart and spirit so Truthful and pure as to become Immortal. So Immortality has much more to do with the quality of our shen and it is only through the embodiment of such enlightened sense that the form realizes itself as formless.

 

At a profound level there is no life nor death, only transformation. And at a transcendent level, that transformation resolves in having never having lived nor died and is beyond even eternality, yet in that resolved transformation is the eternal- free of all form and time.

 

 

 

 

*How often is that you see people asking with such great care - how is my heart? how is my spirit? am I truly a good human? what is the quality of my soul? compared to people fretting over their body, their vanity, their longevity and death? If people- yes, even 'Taoists'  gave as much care, and put so much energy into their heart and spirit as they did their body, their form would radiate more deeply with that very light more vibrant than any food, herb or physical practice. And in that any food, herb or physical practice they did do would be that much more powerful and transformative because of its goodness in resonant clarity.

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Small Fur

[silent thunder]

10 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

When pain, sickness and loss of function rule the body without hope of getting better that coat is not comfortable anymore and leaving it behind can becomes an attractive idea.

This can happen  to younger people too although the elderly population that master Logray speaks of is a good and relatable example.

 

 

I know the body can feel like a prison and death, a release.  I spent many years semi-crippled with an inescapable and often blinding pain that was undiagnosable for a long time.  This happened to me in the peak of life (late 20's early 30's).  It ruined my hard martial arts career, ended my rock climbing, solo hiking, skiing and all other physical loves).

 

I was often consigned to a chair, or walking with a cane/crutch on the 'good days'.  But pain was a daily, minute by minute, inescapable companion.  (Being immune to morphine and most pharma pain meds is a challenge).

 

At some point toward the end of those years of crippling pain, I experienced a shift and this realization cracked through.

 

If one has a body... There will be discomfort, there may be pain.  This does not mean I must suffer.  

Such a gift as that... I'd honestly not wish on an enemy, but my gratitude for it abides to this day. (I have since recovered and wrote about it here in more detail years ago)

 

I experience deep empathy for those who suffer chronic pain (and am familiar with your situation from past sharing).  My story was a direct sharing of my experience as a young child regarding the OP's question.  I did not intend to imply this was or should be everyone's experience.

Much Love Bluesnake.

 

 

 

[Small Fur]

On 1/12/2022 at 6:30 PM, Small Fur said:

 

 

 

 

When in peace you care deeply about life and death while also willing allowing for life and death, then you will be without concern in life and death. In this peaceful willingness and lack, faith and fate (ming) become an expression from True Consciousness (xing dao) moving through you. In an enlightened cultivation, it manifests in Immortality.

In the most pure sense, there is no waste in having lived nor died at any point in time. Yet on an ordinary level, we can still make every effort to live as inherently, healthfully and consciously as possible. There is great virtue in one whose being is rightful and in such enlightened resonance, it will Consciously affect all forms of states and passages in existence- life and death being only one very small iteration of the mundane form you know now.  (It should also be noted that many people believe they have come to some peace with the idea of death, but this is only intellectual when it is yet that they still have a whole host of other fears in life- fears of each other, fears of living, fears of connection, of suffering, etc,. Therefore, if you examine yourself deeply enough, you will realize, the essence of all fear is the same, and that death is just one of many possible projections but is no different than any other fear yet not overcome. Therefore, when all fear is truly overcome, the spirit will go through the first of many 'little deaths' and begin its process of liberation.)

Part of the Immortal path is this ability to recognize and live harmoniously in these other iterations of energy through other dimensions and states in existence and also beyond existence, but this recognition and being cannot be done if we fear or live in attachment to an idea of self (including the idea that we are alive or dead, and the fear or ideas of what it is to suffer). This is why it is important not to be in fear nor attachment to form or else you will not understand the formless: in that lies the misunderstanding of form itself- as form originates from gradations and iterations of formlessness.

 

Immortality is then, fundamentally a state of Consciousness as wisdom whose last most iteration is expressed in form, and form then, is in a sense, Immortality's most trite state even if it represents the whole of a completion. People only marvel at the thought because they think they know form and believe in its concrete apparitations, but they do not understand (nor often care for enough about*) what it is to have a heart and spirit so Truthful and pure as to become Immortal. So Immortality has much more to do with the quality of our shen and it is only through the embodiment of such enlightened sense that the form realizes itself as formless.

 

At a profound level there is no life nor death, only transformation. And at a transcendent level, that transformation resolves in having never having lived nor died and is beyond even eternality, yet in that resolved transformation is the eternal- free of all form and time.

 

 

 

 

*How often is that you see people asking with such great care - how is my heart? how is my spirit? am I truly a good human? what is the quality of my soul? compared to people fretting over their body, their vanity, their longevity and death? If people- yes, even 'Taoists'  gave as much care, and put so much energy into their heart and spirit as they did their body, their form would radiate more deeply with that very light more vibrant than any food, herb or physical practice. And in that any food, herb or physical practice they did do would be that much more powerful and transformative because of its goodness in resonant clarity.

 

 

 

 

 

Following up a bit from my post above...

This may seem a bit of a tangent, but to impress upon some points I made and also expound upon a certain amount of specific understanding regarding life, death and the immortal path- especially for those who are diligently traveling or have traveled a little further along in their personally journey...

because time is not linear and maya is integral to existence, the persistence of life and death are concurrent while simultaneously real and illusory. One of the easiest ways to understand this is to see it as 'strands' of water melding in and out of each other. Interestingly, this is also the literal movement of fate as experienced by the Immortals and enlightened beings and it is possible to witness this directly in each moment of profound awareness. So these waves continuously become each other (note that this has many profound implications, so for those who have come into Consciousness, it is a worthwhile sensory contemplation to understand more fully, especially in meditation, prayer and through connection to the xian and in xing dao).

In addition, death is a powerful form of transformation. Having lived a basic healthy (or even unhealthy) mortal life, one will still continue through the karmic wheel- so whether you continue as this or that, is in many ways neither here nor there, because they are just persisting reflections of the 'same' spirit in differentiated contexts perpetuating itself in its need for resolve through the stream.

However, once the spirit comes back to its original source (yuan shen), the transformation of death will not lead back to the same karmic plane.  Meaning, once you become enlightened and have continued sufficient cultivation as is rightful for your person (also meaning that at this point you do not necessarily pick the path or type of practice so much as you recognize and do what is needed for your specific soul/ being- so at this stage, you are not cultivating from any theory of teaching per se, goal or agenda: you are only following the mandate of heaven... this is very beautiful and harmonious experience) then with sufficient fulfillment yet incomplete, you will be free to go on to finish the Immortal Path somewhere other than in this form on this plane.  That next phase, will be specifically about the Conscious total resolve (as opposed to the often confused meandering that most people experience as part of the mundane). This transcendent occurrence can of course happen in this life time here on Earth, but if you do not finish it here and have lived diligently and deeply enough in enlightened wisdom (and I am not speaking here of merely Awakening, or some certain momentary and profound recognitions- such as seeing heaven or angels, etc.,. but rather actual enlightenment at deeper levels) then you will have already attained a measure of immortality* sufficient for transcendent forms of cultivation beyond.

 

*as I stated earlier in my post above, Immortality begins first in Consciousness of spirit (shen) and then comes from essence before qi and so eventually it filters into form with continued diligence. Thus, there are different levels of immortality and they coincide with enlightened depth that graduates into forms.

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Small Fur

[old3bob]

That was very deep Small Fur  :-)

 

Btw I'd say "attaining" can be a tricky idea if it becomes equated to 'get' which is of ego.  For if the quintessential or Spirit can be got (in that way) then it can also be lost.  (with fear coming into action about getting or losing It.)   

 

I like the term synchronizing and its import better...thus to sync with that which can not be gained or lost per a getting or losing by ego. 

Edited January 13, 2022 by old3bob

[Iliketurtles]

Most people view death as something that only happens to others.

 

Most people never seriously sit themselves down and really deal with the fact that they too are going to die.

 

We do whatever we can to distract ourselves from the thought of death. 

 

TV, Movies, Video Games, Food, Alcohol, Drugs, Sex... And even spiritual systems and religions. 

 

It is like the main point of our society is forget that we too shall die. 

 

memento mori

 

One of my favorite stories on this subject is the fable of the Dragon Tyrant. 

 

https://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Iliketurtles

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Iliketurtles said:

Momento Mori. 

 

*Memento Mori

[TranquilTurmoil]

On 1/13/2022 at 3:38 AM, Small Fur said:

 

 

 

 

Following up a bit from my post above...

This may seem a bit of a tangent, but to impress upon some points I made and also expound upon a certain amount of specific understanding regarding life, death and the immortal path- especially for those who are diligently traveling or have traveled a little further along in their personally journey...

because time is not linear and maya is integral to existence, the persistence of life and death are concurrent while simultaneously real and illusory. One of the easiest ways to understand this is to see it as 'strands' of water melding in and out of each other. Interestingly, this is also the literal movement of fate as experienced by the Immortals and enlightened beings and it is possible to witness this directly in each moment of profound awareness. So these waves continuously become each other (note that this has many profound implications, so for those who have come into Consciousness, it is a worthwhile sensory contemplation to understand more fully, especially in meditation, prayer and through connection to the xian and in xing dao).

In addition, death is a powerful form of transformation. Having lived a basic healthy (or even unhealthy) mortal life, one will still continue through the karmic wheel- so whether your continue as this or that, is in many ways neither here nor there, because they are just persisting reflections of the 'same' spirit in differentiated contexts perpetuating itself in its need for resolve through the stream.

However, once the spirit comes back to its original source (yuan shen), the transformation of death will not lead back to the same karmic plane.  Meaning, once you become enlightened and have continued sufficient cultivation as is rightful for your person (also meaning that at this point you do not necessarily pick the path or type of practice so much as you recognize and do what is needed for your specific soul/ being- so at this stage, you are not cultivating from any theory of teaching per se, goal or agenda: you are only following the mandate of heaven... this is very beautiful and harmonious experience) then with sufficient fulfillment yet incomplete, you will be free to go on to finish the Immortal Path somewhere other than in this form on this plane.  That next phase, will be specifically about the Conscious total resolve (as opposed to the often confused meandering that most people experience as part of the mundane). This transcendent occurrence can of course happen in this life time here on Earth, but if you do not finish it here and have lived diligently and deeply enough in enlightened wisdom (and I am not speaking here of merely Awakening, or some certain momentary and profound recognitions- such as seeing heaven or angels, etc.,. but rather actual enlightenment at deeper levels) then you will have already attained a measure of immortality* sufficient for transcendent forms of cultivation beyond.

 

*as I stated earlier in my post above, Immortality begins first in Consciousness of spirit (shen) and then comes from essence before qi and so eventually it filters into form with continued diligence. Thus, there are different levels of immortality and they coincide with enlightened depth that graduates into forms.

 

I am wondering from this perspective... that being "called" to something is a visceral, known thing at a certain point? And is being "called" always happening, and it just beyond the cognitive/thinking's mind's recognition, or even being recognized by said mind, being ignored out of fear, grasping/craving, delusion? I say perspective, as I do not viscerally know my calling in any specific way, and can only infer other people's knowledge of an experience of that... however there is somewhere within an intuitive sense that discerns every now and again in a way that "this is not for me", or being pulled towards something... yet it is from what I can tell always blended with the illusory "I, Me, Mine"... and I have come to think that the term "ego" is applied broadly in a non-specific way to parts of the psyche that are much more specific just not intimately known without a trained eye. Is there a deeper part (I would imagine Shen) that is called or knows it's calling, and does Shen have to be manifest deeply in one's mind (or being or whatever would adequately describe) before one can discern for oneself what one is called to?

 

Think I stated that clearly enough, hopefully it wasn't to convoluted, anyone is welcome to respond btw

[Michael Sternbach]

Immortalism is based, not on fear of death, but on love of life.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

52 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Immortalism is based

 

It's also redpilled

[Michael Sternbach]

14 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

 

It's also redpilled

 

Let's look at the definition of this:

 

The terms "red pill" and "blue pill" refer to a choice between the willingness to learn a potentially unsettling or life-changing truth by taking the red pill or remaining in contented ignorance with the blue pill.

From Wikipedia

 

Yes, it's definitely redpilled according to this.

[Michael Sternbach]

However, Immortalism in the classical sense of Alchemy (both Eastern and Western) has a modern travesty in the form of Transhumanism.

 

The sort of immortality implied by the latter - conceptualized by replacing the natural body by cybernetic parts or even treating human consciousness as a data set that could be uploaded to a computer (Frank Tipler) - is the epitome of a materialistic and mechanistic world view and deeply Atheist in nature.

 

That version is indeed mostly based on fear of death.

 

So again, which pill would you rather choose: blue or red?

[Lairg]

In human terms I am old.  I have observed that most old people do not fear death.  They are more likely to fear being left alone after their partner dies

 

Humans, over time, gradually get some sense of existing beyond the physical plane.  Hence death is not feared - except perhaps by those that know that the reckoning they face will not be pleasant

Edited April 2, 2022 by Lairg