Regarding retention and celibacy-health risks

[Taoist81]

Retention and celibacy tend to be popular topics around here. Most of us have toyed with one or the other or both at some point and feelings are diverse about the uses/benefits of such a practice. In TCM excessive sexuality (or according to some excessive e) is a cause of Kidney deficiency (mostly). In the West feelings have been mixed over male sexual habits, but in recent years real studies have been done re: male sexual health. Now, we can all see the practical benefits of ejaculation control, but what about the negative health effects. Some here seem to see celibacy as an ultimate goal, or something that is to be aspired to or is honorable. This in history, seems to have been a Buddhist import into Taoism. Celibacy is not found normally in nature except in submissive animals in an alpha male dominated society. In those cases it is the weaker of the species, not the healthier, that are celibate. The human psyche certainly makes our behavior different, but still, celibacy is noticeably rare in nature.

Taking Nature as a reference and science as the lens through which we observe, how do those here that support complete abstinence from ejaculation or celibacy look at things like:

 

"Men who ejaculated most often actually had a 33% lower lifetime risk of prostate cancer, and this relationship grew stronger as men grew older."

 

www.webmd.com/prostate-cancer/news/20040406/frequent-ejaculation-prostate+risk+of+prostate+cancer+%2233%25%22+study&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

[Fire Dragon]

[Taoist81]

Quote taoist81:"Men who ejaculated most often actually had a 33% lower lifetime risk of prostate cancer, and this relationship grew stronger as men grew older."

 

This studies are not done on cultivators. It might be that cultivators are better of than any of the two groups! So it really says nothing about how to practice. My guess is doing the techniques for celibacy as a cultivator in the right way are healthy even when looking at the health of the prostate, doing it the wrong way might be very bad.

 

You should exercise the prostate and stopping the urine in intervals when urinating if you not ejaculate. And you should also eat some pumpkin seed to strengthen the prostate and give it zinc.

F D

 

First, that was a quote from the article, not from Taoist81.

Second, sure, we can agree that they did not have a control group for "cultivators" but, what they are describing is physiology. Granted it is possible that regular non-ejaculatory sex exercises the prostate enough to achieve the same effect, but there are no "cultivators" coming forward to show this. SeanD says his teacher's teacher is doing some research, but this has not happened yet, so it can't be commented on. But, the bottom line is you don't have any number of verifiable reports or studies of actual health benefits, only anecdotal claims. The claims in the White Tigress book could easily be chocked up to good genes, especially seeing as Hsi Lai (one has to snicker at the way that sounds to an English speaker "She lie") is the only real source to go on. This is not to say that it is false or whatever you want to call it, quite the contrary, it is hoped that you will report to us about your experiences in this tradition and your tale will be followed with great interest. It is only that there is no real evidence of any benefits to cultivation practices over basic meditation and good health/exercise. On the other hand, there is clear evidence that there are risks inherent in not ejaculating which unless there is real physical change in the physiology of the practitioner there is no reason to think would not apply to Taoist practitioners.

[joeblast]

Question is, how tough is it to play with numbers to have them portray a statistical point of view? Not tough at all, especially when the controls are lax. Applying this info into an entirely different context (i.e. people that cultivate...how are you defining cultivate btw?) is a big statistical stretch.

[Taoist81]

Question is, how tough is it to play with numbers to have them portray a statistical point of view? Not tough at all, especially when the controls are lax. Applying this info into an entirely different context (i.e. people that cultivate...how are you defining cultivate btw?) is a big statistical stretch.

Who are you asking about the definition of cultivate? So far the way the body works is "statistically" the same for most people without significant genetic defects. So it is presumed that human males that are meditating/qigonging/five element fusing, while having scientifically verifiable lower blood pressure, still have the same physiology as men who don't, even if they have more healthy habits. Since the decreased risk was directly connected with ejaculation frequency it would go to say "cultivators" (by whatever definition) would be similar.

Regarding the study as far as was reported the control wasn't lax. This was a rather large study for the subject matter. On the other hand, the controls for anecdotal evidence (i.e. evidence of actual benefits of retention/celibacy) is completely absent. 30,000 men is nothing to shake a statistical stick at.

 

(of course, a favorite quote from Mark Twain if memory serves is: "There are three kinds of lies, white lies, bold faced lies and statistics).

[Trunk]

Retention and celibacy tend to be popular topics around here. ...

 

Mostly the wrong topics to try and organize behavior and/or practice around, imo.

1. People vary.

2. Each person varies over time.

So, narrow rules are often counter-productive.

 

Do whatever promotes harmony, for how you actually are.

And, yeah, it's nice to discover and practice the promotion pathways of jing to Bigger Non-Stuff .. but that doesn't have a line-by-line relationship as to whether you're celibate, or not, or ejaculate, or not.

[Eric23]

Having had a series of prostate infections a number of years ago, I did a fair amount of research. When you quoted the headline on the article claiming a correlation between ejaculation and prostate health, they may have over-simplified it a bit. What my research came up with was that the prostate likes to have a consistant pattern of ejaculation. That is to say if a man e's say once a week and for some reason or another takes several weeks off or goes on a binge and e's a couple of times a day for several days, the prostate will have a difficult time with the wildly varying testosterone levels. All I can add is that when I've been on a consistant schedule myself, there haven't been any problems. My last prostate infection was over ten years ago.

[Taoist81]

Having had a series of prostate infections a number of years ago, I did a fair amount of research. When you quoted the headline on the article claiming a correlation between ejaculation and prostate health, they may have over-simplified it a bit. What my research came up with was that the prostate likes to have a consistant pattern of ejaculation. That is to say if a man e's say once a week and for some reason or another takes several weeks off or goes on a binge and e's a couple of times a day for several days, the prostate will have a difficult time with the wildly varying testosterone levels. All I can add is that when I've been on a consistant schedule myself, there haven't been any problems. My last prostate infection was over ten years ago.

 

By research do you mean that you looked at how you felt or do you mean that you found actual research studies that suggested you premise? As for oversimplifying, they took 30,000 men and the only correlation they could confirm was that men who ejaculated 5 or more times a week had at least a 33% lower chance of getting cancer increasing to >55% lower chance with age. They don't address infections.

If your findings disagreed please post links. Currently this is the largest well known study of this kind.

[Eric23]

My series of prostate infections happened about 15 years ago, long before I had found the internet. I went down to my local public library, searched through the card catalog and picked several of the most recently published books on men's and prostate health. At that time the consensus among the doctor authors was that regular ejaculation was a major component of prostate health. The research at that time favored a regular schedule of ej. If you were ej once a week or twice a day, stay with the same schedule. In the study you cited, the men who are ej 5 times a week are probably doing that week after week. After reading those books, I settled into a every other day schedule and haven't had any problems since. Now that I'm in my 50's, and being exposed to the Taoist methods, I've transitioned to a once a week schedule with fairly regular prostate stimulation (aneros). So far, the advice from all those years ago has served me well.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Eric23

[voidisyinyang]

I'm just being honest in stating that Taoist practice is based on heating up the fluid so that it becomes electromagnetic energy. It's pretty straight forward.

[三江源]

I'm just being honest in stating that Taoist practice is based on heating up the fluid so that it becomes electromagnetic energy. It's pretty straight forward.

 

I never heard it put that way before, drew. nice. simple. thanks.

[宁]

I never heard it put that way before, drew. nice. simple. thanks.

 

if they dont know what to do, the fluids transform, and they become "dry". there is not much left in our bodies...

[joeblast]

if they dont know what to do, the fluids transform, and they become "dry". there is not much left in our bodies...

That's assuming only one transformation method exists....or at least that's how it sounded to me

 

Regarding 'control' before, I meant the 'statistical control factors' that are used in the study to make 'statistically coherent' extrapolations. Tough thing with stuff like this is that there can be a vast number of factors that may wind up having statistical significance, yet can easily be overlooked when determining control factors (often its for the sake of simplicity, the complexity of the study increases exponentially the more factors are involved.) That's not to say that any statistical deductions made by a given study are bunk, its just that those extrapolations can easily and unintentionally be misleading. Eric's conclusion sounds pretty spot on to me. Drew's too, if you can get there

Edited April 20, 2008 by joeblast

[宁]

That's assuming only one transformation method exists....or at least that's how it sounded to me

 

the usual one... there are bound to be many others, but fiew of us know they even exist

[voidisyinyang]

OK basically it's like this. I sit in full-lotus. Whatever food I eat which normally would turn into sex fluid (and does) instead gets shot up my spine and in the process gets ionized via the vagus nerve. The right-side vagus nerve pulsates, along with the adam's apple, as the pineal gland, in turn, shoots out the ionized condensate (I don't know what else to call it in Western terms) -- qi. Qi is a combination of matter (electrochemical), energy (electromagnetic) and information.

 

So it's mainly yang, electromagnetic energy once it's in my brain BUT the vagus nerve ALSO transduces not just the hormones but also the bacteria of digestion. Yes, that's right. I looked this up to confirm my experience. So I either have to be really careful with my diet to minimize acid production of e. coli or else I have to kill the bacteria using some sort of septic (mouthwash, tea tree oil, garlic, etc.)

 

Anyway while the yang electromagnetic energy is shot out of the pineal gland and into a yin source -- usually female -- then as the energy builds up the vagus nerve and adam's apple pulsates faster until climax is achieved. What that means is that enough of the ionized hormones (I'm assuming now a neurotransmitter like serotonin or acetylcholine (sp.?) has been shot out of my pineal gland, this causes MORE electrochemical hormone, yin energy to be sucked up from my lower body.

 

The question is where does that MORE energy come from -- the answer is from the same source that just received my yang electromagnetic energy.

 

So let's say the yin source is exceptionally strong -- what that means is that I now have a lot of fluid back in my lower body and I now have to ionize that hormone energy again -- through more full-lotus.

 

And so it creates a continuous "pumping" and "emission" system, just like a laser -- because that's what it is -- coherent light or shen shooting out of the pineal gland, as some sort of "bose-einstein condensate" or superconducting fluid.

 

Yeah it's strange and the practice requires quite a bit of finesse and there's some danger to it, as having mutual climaxes in public is a rareity. haha. Plus the side-effects are a bit overwhelming. haha.

 

Anyway it does harmonize the energy -- I call it "full body digestion."

[Xienkula1]

 

 

And so it creates a continuous "pumping" and "emission" system, just like a laser -- because that's what it is -- coherent light or shen shooting out of the pineal gland, as some sort of "bose-einstein condensate" or superconducting fluid.

 

 

Yes, Yes! That is correct! Now you are missing ONLY the holophonies of over-unity plasma-time arcing sonograms to tickle the sonoluminescent bacterial microtubules bose-ensteinian condensations.

[voidisyinyang]

Well I forgot to mention that when the mutual climax occurs, after the "love-light" shoots out of the pineal gland, my voice gets super deep and rich -- real "MANLY." So I'm guess that the vagus nerve also transduces testosterone as well.

 

And there you have it.

[Xienkula1]

You failed to mention that the pineal is literally a left-over remanent of our reptillian ET ancestral evolution, and that in addition to being the Third Eyed Wonder, it is also the Third Leg of the hypothallamus. Reptoids Aliens mate with their retractable pineal glands, though male glands, are actually smaller clitori, while female pineals are actually larger phalli, both are extractable and retractable once one has achieved phowa level 72 and can thrust the pineal out of ones sutures at the brahmamons point that is when the skull hymen is punctured and one gets a fountain of blood, and white einstein bose condensate, the real white lion, and red phoenix gushing as one fountain of Light/Love.

[Guest allan]

So I either have to be really careful with my diet to minimize acid production of e. coli or else I have to kill the bacteria using some sort of septic (mouthwash, tea tree oil, garlic, etc.)

 

Try using "thermal heat" from your palms to kill the bacteria, the heat can often do wonders. If you are unsure of my coined term, and how it can be used, you can always google it.

[bd2]

There are athletes which are said to live celibate when important competitions are going to take place. It is said that they do this because they intend to tweak their performance.

 

It is only that there is no real evidence of any benefits to cultivation practices over basic meditation and good health/exercise.

 

I fear that you are right. I believe that frequent ejaculation or insufficient practice of grounding exercises or excessive sexual activity weakens the kidneys. I believe that weak kidneys can lead to hair loss, obesity, low resistance to cold temperatures and to illnesses (i.e. depression, burn out syndrome)

 

Celibacy is not found normally in nature

 

Animals may not be celibate but many of them only have sex a few times a year and only to reproduce themselves.

 

SeanD says his teacher's teacher is doing some research, but this has not happened yet, so it can't be commented on

 

1) and 2) are highly speculative theory that i just thought out:

1) Plato Rosinke wrote the book "Prostate Orgasm, Prostate Cure". He thinks that toxic substances accumulate within the prostate over time if ejaculation does not happen. Mantak Chia wrote that it was possible to drink water with your genitals using secret ancient taoists methods and therefore lead the water into the bladder. So, maybe it is possible to lead the water into the prostate and then out of it again. This way, the toxic substances might be dissolved in the water.

2) You may also go to a doctor and let him stick a catheter through your penis into your prostate and then lead water into your prostate.

3) Plato Rosinke advises to do prostate massage using an aneros or an anal dildo. He advises to squeeze the prostate using such a device and therefore forcing the toxic fluid out of the prostate which is said to be stored in the prostate. However, this is also very painful.

[voidisyinyang]

Just so people have a better idea where I'm coming from -- here's some posts of my stuff, cut and pasted by Piet, this dude in Holland. You have to scroll down a bit -- but it's all about my "O at a D" experiences -- mutual climaxes.

 

http://parodycentrum.wordpress.com/2007/12...buzz-5-12-2007/

[Vantage]

"Men who ejaculated most often actually had a 33% lower lifetime risk of prostate cancer, and this relationship grew stronger as men grew older."

 

www.webmd.com/prostate-cancer/news/20040406/frequent-ejaculation-prostate+risk+of+prostate+cancer+%2233%25%22+study&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

It's funny how this research is consistently being misinterpreted all over the web.

 

The research that is being referred to is a large US study following 30.000 predominately white men aged 46 to 81.

 

It turned out that men who ejaculate 0-3 times per month actually have a lower risk for prostate cancer than men who ejaculate 4-7 times per month.

 

Only the men who ejaculate more than 21 times per month had a lower risk for prostate cancer than the group who had 0-3 ejaculations. And this is only valid for the less dangerous form of prostate cancer. For the more dangerous form of prostate cancer the story is completely different.

 

But don't take my word for it, check the facts for yourself:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/291/13/1578

 

And some people seem to forget that this research is descriptive and not prescriptive. In other words, if you now start wanking 21 times per month there is no proof that it will lower your chance for prostate cancer.

Edited May 12, 2008 by Vantage

[Fire Dragon]

[Taoist81]

[Vantage]

Where are you pulling that quote from?

It was actually not a quote, but my interpretation of this table:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content-nw/fu...TABLEJOC32368T3

The original article doesn't have it and the article you posted mentions that there was a category of 1-3 rather than 0-3 because there weren't enough people in the "none" category.

The category 0-3 is mentioned in the table above.

 

The article that you posted still points out that the study shows less risk of prostate cancer with more frequent ejaculation.

That's very inaccurate of saying what the research says. That statement is only valid when compared to the reference group, who ejaculate 4-7 times a month. It is not valid when compared to the group who ejaculate 0-3 times per month.

 

An accurate way of saying it would be "The group with the highest lifetime average of ejaculation - 21 times per month - were a third less likely to develop the cancer than the reference group, who ejaculated four to seven times a month."

 

To say that "the study shows less risk of prostate cancer with more frequent ejaculation" is a misinterpretation of the data of the study, which I've seen all over the web. Heck even I made that assumption.

 

Where are you getting "less dangerous" from? There is a difference in stages which the article describes as likely related to likelihood of screening. There certainly is no "safe" prostate cancer.

I've called Organ-Confined prostate cancer 'less dangerous', and advanced prostate cancer 'more dangerous'. That's my understanding of it by reading about it.

 

This quote: "The group with the highest lifetime average of ejaculation - 21 times per month - were a third less likely to develop the cancer than the reference group, who ejaculated four to seven times a month."

Is only valid for orphan prostate cancer, not for advanced.

 

That said, you are correct on at least your last point, but that is also pointed out in the original article.

I actually believe I am right about every single point I made, but I am happy to be shown otherwise.

 

I am researching this topic quite intensively and I want to know the truth.

Edited May 12, 2008 by Vantage