Why celibacy and not retention?

[markern]

I`Ve been under the impression that it is ejaculating and not having an orgasm per se that depletes ones energy and that having non ejaculatory multiple orgasms actualy increases your energy and benefits a spiritual practice. Once you`ve built up a lot of sexual energy through orgasms you can either direct it to the dan tien and store it there. I\ve also been under the impression that if you store the energy in the dan tien and combine that with finding an ejaculatory cycle that feels natural for you there should not be many problems with it. At least not if you have a solid foundation in other energy work. Another point of view I`ve come a cross is that the problem is actualy just finding a way to direct the extra energy either through work, creative outlets or an energy practice. Hope some of you can clear this up for me.

 

By the way I know a budhist monk that says in budhism there is normaly no rule against orgasms per say for monks just a rule against ejaculation. I also read in one of Chia`s books about a study done on some sort of caterpillar or something that had male caterpillars (or whatever it was) that had ejaculatory orgasms, multiple dry orgasms and no orgasms. The ones ejaculating had the shortest life span, the celibates the second longest and the multiorgasmic ones the longest.

 

For me it is out of the question to forsake sex and orgasms for any spiritual goal or for long term health regardless of what benefits doing so might give me. I practice vipassana, a lot of yoga, and plan to ad in a little of taiji an qi gong. After a lot of searching this seems to be what fits me and therefore what I\m likely to stick with. From what is known on the health benefits on meditation alone I am a lot more likely to live very long and be a lot happier than most. Add in the yoga and thai chi and a good diet and I am statisticly likely to outlive most. Considering that the average life expectancy in my country Norway is around 80 years old, I`m not very impressed by toist masters becoming 95 or a hundred. Just by jogging and not smoking your life expectancy rises around 10 years anyway (90). With the likely benefits from meditation, yoga and diet there is little chance that I can gain more than a few years. I realy don`t care to sacrifice much for the prospect of living to a hundred and not just 95 years of age.

 

Of course I could become a little more vital in old age, but still, with my current practice the likelyhood of being significantly more vital is smal.

 

The issue her is in large part that you get after a certain amount of effort you get very diminishing returns with regards to living longer and vitality for increasing whatever it is you`re doing for your health.

 

From my perspective it would be absolutely ridiculous to have any less sex than you feel like in order to take care of ones health.

 

For achiving spiritual gains on the other hand, I certainly see that either retention or celibacy would boost ones practice a lot. If you are striving hard for enlightenment or if the extra energy benefits your spiritual practice so much that it outwheighs what you forsake then I can see the point even in celibacy or limiting sex. Still it certainly is not for me. I think I would get a lot more from having deep intimate multiorgasmic and loving sex with my wife everyday than once a week or not at all. Not only because I would be forsaking a lot of pleasure for myself but because I think my wife would be very upset if I didn`t want to sleep with her much and I think it would be very destructvive for the relationship.

 

Lay people who practice a lot of vipassana get a lot of results even if they are not celibate or practicing retention. I am sure that`s the case for most other traditions as well. I`d rather be a highly acomplished vipassana/yoga guy miles away from enlightenment with a great relationship and an amazing sex life than closer to an unlike enlightenment with a dispassionate relationship and little sex. Anyway, what`s teh rush? If you belive in reincarnation and you have a practice that improves your life immensly but dosen`t lead you to enlightenment in this life time, why not cool down a bit and give it a couple of more life times?

[WhiteTiger]

Lay people who practice a lot of vipassana get a lot of results even if they are not celibate or practicing retention. I am sure that`s the case for most other traditions as well. I`d rather be a highly acomplished vipassana/yoga guy miles away from enlightenment with a great relationship and an amazing sex life than closer to an unlike enlightenment with a dispassionate relationship and little sex. Anyway, what`s teh rush? If you belive in reincarnation and you have a practice that improves your life immensly but dosen`t lead you to enlightenment in this life time, why not cool down a bit and give it a couple of more life times?

 

Thats your choice. You have the option to make that choice. My question for you is, do you feel you understand enough to make the smartest choice. Most people don't when making any choice that falls short of perfection. (Although perfection is completely a different subject.) Yes I understand the saying, "nothing is perfect" But thats not a reason to not strive for perfection in a heathy manner.

 

Second thing I wanted to say is, from my understanding, the point of retention is to move towards being celibate. Which making the point to be celibate instead of retention. (speifically talking about what you call spirituality) I just think a lot of misconception is around rentetion and celibacy. The point or goal is to become (or work towards) being celibate and not to retain. You can move towards retaining while trying to become celibate but not just to get stuck on the feeling of retention. I am talking from personal experience of screwing up. (so keep in mind even though i'm no master, i did learn this the hard way, and could know just a tinny bit about it)

 

Just my two cents, hopes it helps you or anyone else out... there is no reason to ever stop figuring out things you don't yet understand. (in a healthy way, or as healthy as possible)

[sunshine]

In a way "WhiteTiger" you raise points that quickly lead to "school-quarrels" and the question of "true-not true", "wrong-and right"... etc.

 

Not every spiritual school requires lifelong celibacy. Many though seem to require periods of celibacy. Celibacy does not mean though one is able to retain. Then we have the question of: is not be able to retain while celibate more draining then maybe once in a while interacting with the opposite polarity?

 

So many questions. Hardly one answer we all will agree to.

 

 

Harry

[sunshine]

In a way "WhiteTiger" you raise points that quickly lead to "school-quarrels" and the question of "true-not true", "wrong-and right"... etc.

 

Not every spiritual school requires lifelong celibacy. Many though seem to require periods of celibacy. Celibacy does not mean though one is able to retain. Then we have the question of: is not be able to retain while celibate more draining then maybe once in a while interacting with the opposite polarity?

 

So many questions. Hardly one answer we all will agree to.

 

 

Harry

[宁]

i have a wacky supposition...

 

the buddhist and taoist claim there are seven emotions that drain our energy...

 

even happiness they say drains energy...

 

it seems that when a SENSATION and FEELING is MANIFESTING, when it comes into the Later Heaven, it is already lost...

 

can it be the same with sex?

 

what do you think?

 

also, i dont mean to imply that managing your sexual energy and activity is obsolete, not by a long shot.

 

L1

 

PS: I just came home from an Evening Seminar with Mantak Chia... The guy is really something.

[sunshine]

>>it seems that when a SENSATION and FEELING is MANIFESTING, when it comes into the Later Heaven, it is already lost...

 

can it be the same with sex?<<

 

pretty likely

 

>>PS: I just came home from an Evening Seminar with Mantak Chia... The guy is really something.

<<

 

He is on his world tour right now, isn't he?

 

 

Harry

[宁]

yes he is on his world tour... interesting how the stem cell technology AND taoist practice have come together in the tao garden resort. he has been asked about some cases about stem cell practice results. they are really doing very well. they can treat a lot of problems, not seemingly, but really do it. so all the rumours that im sure you too have heard about, stand on just thin air.

since a long time ago, he has enough money and fame to retreat and live in peace, but he is actively investing all he has in promoting a system that has helped a lot of people over the years. for instance, there are many that wonder where does he get his endurance, when he goes twice anually in his world tour...

 

so... the people that use mantak as a refference only to retention practice... they should know that there is a lot more out there, and it seems that, until he will retreat one day, there will be, more and more.

 

about the Later Heaven and the Early Heaven theory: i think is correct, but until a practicioner has gathered enough strenght to work with the early heaven forces, he can do a lot of improvement, both in his life, his health and his spirituality, just by working with the later heaven forces. some even say that this idea would be a prerequisite...

 

we did the restoring of the original force practice, primordial breath and embryonic breath. the chi field he created for the practicioners, allowed us to work it out neat and clean. im happy i wasnt wrong to trust him, as i too had my fair share of doubts.

 

 

L1

[sunshine]

im happy i wasnt wrong to trust him, as i too had my fair share of doubts.

L1

 

 

Harry

[三江源]

What about exchanging energy with someone of the opposite gender, and practising the Big Draw energetically, without physical sex.

 

Where does that fit in?

 

 

As far as I am aware, it's a good thing, right? Allowed?

[mantis]

as far as mantak chia goes i'm pretty sure that's the ultimate goal

[三江源]

right, yes, mantis, it is.

 

 

And with others, too, that I have come across.

 

I just wondered about here, on taobums.

 

 

Because I have been taught that it is good for the male to balance his energy with the female in this way, and that it helps with other goals.

[yuanqi]

i have a wacky supposition...

 

the buddhist and taoist claim there are seven emotions that drain our energy...

 

even happiness they say drains energy...

 

 

 

 

 

the seven emotions can be complicated when speaking of draining energy, each emotion can effect the organs that are paired with it, and all those emotions indirectly affect the heart (mind). but most of the time it isnt something that drains a person as feelings/emotions are natural, only when in excess or intense, where the emotion is controlling the person, is it viewed as a detriment.........

Edited April 20, 2008 by yuanqi

[voidisyinyang]

Edited April 20, 2008 by drew hempel

[Procurator]

 

 

From my perspective it would be absolutely ridiculous to have any less sex than you feel like in order to take care of ones health.

 

yeah except its not YOUR perspective. Its the three worms talking.

[宁]

non-physical sexuality... from what ive heard.

physica sexuality is the first level of it, many of us stop just at this level. it is said that there are eight more levels. the thing is, if you want to go up, you have to master the physical part first, otherwise is just fantasy.

 

it can happen though, if your MO is running neat, and been retaining for a while, sometimes when you sit next to a lady, or as a lady, next to a man, it can trigger orgasmic feelings going upward into the body... it may not be any intent in it, it's just a process of natural balancing. the one that has the strongest force, easy to guess, gains more from this experience... if your center is not well defined, the energy scatters, and it can turn into an energetic ejaculation...

or so the story goes

L1

 

as far as mantak chia goes i'm pretty sure that's the ultimate goal

 

it is, but plays a really minor part of it, there is more

[voidisyinyang]

Basically we're talking about vagus nerve stimulation -- the reproductive vagus nerve goes up along the right side of the neck. Check out this patent. It's been proven in the Journal Nature recently that vagus nerve stimulation is effective for numerous immune system healing properties and this patent also states that there's many ways to stimulate the vagus nerve: microchips, ultrasound, mechanical vibration. This patent is for a nasal spray stimulation.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6610713-description.html

[三江源]

non-physical sexuality... from what ive heard.

physica sexuality is the first level of it, many of us stop just at this level. it is said that there are eight more levels. the thing is, if you want to go up, you have to master the physical part first, otherwise is just fantasy.

 

it can happen though, if your MO is running neat, and been retaining for a while, sometimes when you sit next to a lady, or as a lady, next to a man, it can trigger orgasmic feelings going upward into the body... it may not be any intent in it, it's just a process of natural balancing. the one that has the strongest force, easy to guess, gains more from this experience... if your center is not well defined, the energy scatters, and it can turn into an energetic ejaculation...

or so the story goes

L1

it is, but plays a really minor part of it, there is more

 

 

Little1, hi. I am familiar with this procedure myself. I just dont see it mentioned by the guys who are trying not to ejaculate. Is it not beneficial to them to interact with women on this energetic level, and would it not satisfy some of the need that sabotages non - ejaculation goals?

[宁]

Little1, hi. I am familiar with this procedure myself. I just dont see it mentioned by the guys who are trying not to ejaculate. Is it not beneficial to them to interact with women on this energetic level, and would it not satisfy some of the need that sabotages non - ejaculation goals?

 

not only it is beneficial, it should happen this way, if they really retain. the retaining force is build deep in their lower abdomen, as the strong suction force of the dantian. so everything is part of a bigger picture, you cannot plunge into retention practices without having some minimum practice basis of the dantian. the only way i can understand this situation is... they dont really practice, but rather only talk about practicing...

 

i saw it happening to guys that were into this practice for only a year or so, and been merely trying to ejaculate more rarely, but this means they really have sexual power. in spite of the over-sexual stimulation in the west, i think the real problem is that sexual power, both in women and in men, is not what it used to be. we read some reports regarding the growth of infertility in the west, that are really scary.

 

there are a lot of factors that determine it, which a simple-minded practicioner cannot control, electromagnetic pollution being one of the main. this is why i think taoism and science need each other. i'd rather not go too much into it.

 

 

L1

Edited April 20, 2008 by Little1

[bd2]

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Edited April 20, 2008 by bd2

[WhiteTiger]

right, yes, mantis, it is.

And with others, too, that I have come across.

 

I just wondered about here, on taobums.

Because I have been taught that it is good for the male to balance his energy with the female in this way, and that it helps with other goals.

 

Excuss me for not knowing all my proper terms to explain in this field or talk. But I would like clearification on exactly what your talking about, the change of non sexual Yin and Ynag energy with a female to help balance yourself out. If it isn't the same as sexual energy my proper experience says yes.

 

A teacher long ago told me that there was a ritual of males and females in a Taoist group that believed having sex with another to retain there Yin or Yang energy was the right way to balance themselves out. (it was explained that this sect was more like a cult and it was where men worshiped women and another one was explained where women worshiped men, but some how those women would try and take, or steal the energy of the men while at the same time the women looked at the men as gods) My point being my misunderstanding exactly what your talking about makes me think you could be talking about two different things totally different, one being good the other being completely bad... but then again thats why i read on the boards in hopes i can learn stuff from actual people instead of books. (While I also use books as a reasource)

 

The way i answered my question was specifically to raise a lot of questions about a lot of things. I wasn't trying to start arguements of any sort. But raise questions in people where they can comtemplate on them, and look for other reasources (like books and teachers they know of) to help them figure what seek proper for them. What the right answer is for them. Through experience its quite clear, that the practices faults and inperfections will become clear (if they have any) if you get deep enough into it. If you get deep enough into any practice you should outgrow your teacher, or worse, your teacher might refrain from teaching you anymore because you have become a person that could out grow him. (getting into the teachers own issues is a whole other story, i do not wish to venture in this subject but maybe on another post or forum if brought up or asked to me)

[WhiteTiger]

Little1, hi. I am familiar with this procedure myself. I just dont see it mentioned by the guys who are trying not to ejaculate. Is it not beneficial to them to interact with women on this energetic level, and would it not satisfy some of the need that sabotages non - ejaculation goals?

 

Thats a good question. I'll be extremely opened and honest to you and infront of everyone else on the board. The last Taoist female practioner i was practicing with (was my teacher) actually played with my sexuality. she did not help me and she totally !@#$ed me up. I should have removed myself from the situation, I did not trust her to start out, and i shouldn't have continued to want to learn what she was teaching (which was what i wanted to learn, and had nothing to do with playing with my sexuality)

 

So, quite plainly put. It is extremely beneficial for us (males) to intereact with women on this energetic level.

I would also like to add most men you come in contact want to sabotage themselves, and/or they want to screw you up, and/or too overly screwed up to be helped.

 

Sadly enough every female I now-a-days come in contact with just want to screw me up more, or help me sabotage myself.

[voidisyinyang]

Hi Pepe: There is actually a new interview with Stanford professor Robert Sapolsky about "primate peace." I had been rereading his excellent book "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers" a couple weeks ago. So I had googled him and then discovered he had a new interview that same day! So then I emailed him about my full-lotus "O at a D" experiences and just a couple days ago the second part of the interview was put online. Sapolsky and I corresponded a bit previously, several years ago, about the connection between hormones, territoriality and female exogamy -- when the female leaves her family in order to be controlled by a stranger male's family. The Bushmen culture had this reversed: the male left his family in order to serve his new wive's family. Remember that the Bushmen culture was the dominant human culture for 90% of human history, going back to 80,000 BCE. Chimps, in contrast, practice female exogamy.

 

Anyway amazingly in the traditional Bushmen culture you are truly not considered a real "man" until you have the "staying power" to achieve this "O at a D" healing energy. The women will insist that you learn to do this. What Sapolsky talks about in this latest interview is how this behavior of peaceful primates is learned and not some genetic determinism. Essentially if you have a group of nice, loving primate males, then the females will freely present their backsides for that "O at a D" experience (well it's probably pretty close-up for most primates). haha.

 

Otherwise what happens, as Sapolsky describes, is you get classic "anger displacement" behavior where there is a hierarchy of aggression with those on the bottom getting the worst end of the deal. This, of course, is now the norm for humanity - but amazingly for the Bushmen culture there was a peaceful, loving energy relying on what the male healers called "collecting the N/um of young maidens." The N/um being the electrochemical bliss energy which is then transformed into the male electromagnetic light energy, called !XIA by the Bushmen. Most of the healing at the Bushmen trance dances is about sexual jealousy. After the healing there are much more loving interactions between the males and females. In my experience it takes over five mutual internal climaxes to open up the loving heart chakra. Since most modern males do not have this "staying power" then the emotions do not get ionized via the vagus nerve and the electrochemicals get stuck as anger, lust, sadness, fear and worry. More importantly the external climax is triggered by the stress nervous system -- the sympathetic system, just feeding the same lower emotions. Any male can learn how to do this internal climax by practicing the "small universe" sitting meditation which is just the harmonics of the 12 notes of the music scale applied to the body. This is also what Gurdjieff was teaching and he called it the "circulation of the energy" exercise. A good guidance c.d. is sold at http://springforestqigong.com.

 

On science in the psychedelia movement I've recently had some very excellent discussions with a coworker of mine who is something of a psychedelia adept. haha. What I had to emphasize to him is that both the male and female sex energy is electrochemical and therefore "yin" or female while the healing trance energy is electromagnetic or "yang" male energy. Keeping this in mind psychedelia are ALSO examples of female, electrochemical energy. So, again, in the Bushmen culture the creation of electromagnetic healing energy was done through the females singing, using syncopated hand clapping while the males dance around a fire for 10 hours. 90% of the males became healers so shamanism was not considered some special role, as it's often considered in psychedelia. But if the females became healers only then would sometimes be used a psychedelia. In other words the females needed extra help to achieve the trance state because other wise the intensity of pain and emotion is too strong.

 

Now with my coworker I was quick to emphasize that indeed psychedelia, by creating light, does have the male, yang electromagnetic energy, but only in a limited sense, because as a plant, it's powered by the yin, female electrochemical energy. In contrast what I call the "natural resonance revolution" has unlimited potential because it relies on the basic principles which create both the electrochemical and electromagnetic energy. This is why the male healers never used psychedelia. Even Wade Davis acknowledges that in Africa there is much less reliance on drugs for healing. What is amazing is how the Bushmen culture continues to get ignored, probably because it's almost been totally destroyed. Psychedelia are a type of technology -- a tool -- that in a sense is part of the reason males are cut off from the inherent principles to create healing energy.

 

And so just as Sapolsky studied trends in primate behavior it's been recently discovered that the first tool users in primates were females -- using spears for hunting. This is quite ironic since we think of the males as hunters and indeed the male chimps are the hunters but the meat is used for sexual favors with the females, often through coercion. The female chimps don't want to get raped so they start using technology to have an alternative source for meat. Anthropologist Christopher Knight, based on his book "Blood Relations," argues that human females established menstrual synchronization with the moon in order to form a group solidarity to ensue that hunting relations remained "civilized." So, in a sense, hidden ovulation, in synch with the moon, is part of the early development of tool use. This is very persuasive and Knight has a grant to finish his next book with more details, called "The Human Conspiracy."

 

Essentially left-brain language dominance and right-hand tool dominance co-evolved with bipedalism so that long distance hunting could be conducted in an organized fashion. At first the females controlled the land, as is well-established in Bushmen culture. The males can only hunt where the females let them. But with the domestication of animals the males begin to think that THEY controlled the land, and subsequently the moon was seen as a sign of sickness. This is found in the Turkana pastoralists of Kenya -- where very early religion emerges -- the "sun is sick" when the moon covers it up and therefore a sacrifice is required, as I already discussed. Left-brain dominant rules emerged from this early religion as a means of extending the hunting territory. We can see that this is essentially a REGRESSION back to chimp female exogamy -- and it's reliance on coercion and rape through male hierarchy. This control by the lower emotions is what Gurdjieff calls "Kundabuffer" -- literally the closing up of the "organ" in the small of the back, thereby stopping the internal climax using the peaceful parasympathetic nervous system.

 

This left-brain, right-hand territorial growth just continued later on as science, only now relying on mass ritual sacrifice at the expense of the lunar-governed water-based peaceful ecological or matrifocal horticulture societies. My argument is that while Nature is based on left-hand asymmetric carbon-based molecules, science itself relies on right-hand technology to make left-brain dominance measurements which are cut off from the right-brain dominant healing music that previously maintained harmony of heaven (mind) and earth (body). It's a pretty wild claim: Science is a psychological projection of this lost natural resonance but now the resonance returns as the repressed energy -- as Mother Nature destroying life on earth and starting over. Gurdjieff talks about this destruction of civilization when he states that unless the moon is properly feed by the psychic energy of life on earth, then that life will be wiped out since it's not doing its job in harmony with the moon-sun-earth (yin-yang-consciousness) resonance. What remains is pure consciousness or what I call "female formless awareness."

[宁]

drew, you rock. how can you tell that O at a D is not energetic ejaculation?

it's great you are really interested in scientific investigation of such phenomena.

you have learned all that you need to know. but i think you desperately need only one thing: a wife, two kids and two jobs. this'll put all your theories to the test. and if they fail, your DNA acheived immortality anyhow, if you know what i mean...

 

good luck

 

L1

[Gerard]

I`d rather be a highly acomplished vipassana/yoga guy miles away from enlightenment with a great relationship and an amazing sex life than closer to an unlike enlightenment with a dispassionate relationship and little sex. Anyway, what`s teh rush? If you belive in reincarnation and you have a practice that improves your life immensly but dosen`t lead you to enlightenment in this life time, why not cool down a bit and give it a couple of more life times?

 

Each to their own. It all comes down to how far you are in the path of the spiritual evolution of all karmic beings.

 

Just enjoy what you got and most importantly keep cultivating your spirit according to the Noble EightFold Path, the pinnacle of moral wisdom existing in Samsara.

 

Oṃ Tare Tutare Ture Svaha.

Edited April 21, 2008 by durkhrod chogori

[Xienkula1]

 

Oṃ Tare Tutare Ture Svaha.

 

Oṃ Taare Tut taare Toore Mama Ayurjnana Punye Pushtim Kuru Svaha.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Xienkula1