Why celibacy and not retention?

[glovemtb]

Respectively I claim no mastery of anything really and you really can't tell someone that has not experienced it but, imho, sounds like you have already drawn your opinions, beliefs and what you will and will not try; are afraid you may be missing something and are asking; but also offering rationalizations for not searching into "celibacy" and this particular method of deeper spiritual practice now.

Believe it or not sexual restraint is only a relatively small sacrifice and starting point.......in any particular incarnation. (It is not easy, like a child having a toy taken away.)

 

I do not criticise any choice one way or the other. But, will try most practices, tantric, kundalini, very non-ritualistic chi gung, etc.

 

Lets me mention, if one is able to shall we say,...think about other things...."purify" jing and transform and experience the success relative to the sacrifice for only a couple of months. You will be a step ahead in the discussion.

 

At a young age I was never successful for any length of time and thus never really understood and wish I knew with--->that youthful vitality then, what I now know (why would it matter if e v e n t u a l l y you will succeed ? .... another rationalization....try some other approaches with and empty cup, since you have to empty your mind anyway !!!!! Note: I also understand the dangers of blind religious faith eastern or western after some years of Jungian theory and psychological practice.

Of course, a good teacher helps.

Am I the master of my domain now ? much more than I was...according to my wife.

Hey, at least you are looking which is more than 99.9 dogmatic religious folks will do.

Sorry this is a bit hackneyed , speaking eloquence does not necessarily mean much in my opinion, esp since I'm not good at it .

 

>>>>>>>>>For me it is out of the question to forsake sex and orgasms for any spiritual goal or for long term health regardless of what benefits doing so might give me.>>>>>>

How bout for 1 million dollars ??????

So materially then regardless is not quite as regardless....

Edited April 23, 2008 by glovemtb

[Trunk]

I really come back to my simple previous statements:

1. People vary

2. a person varies over time

 

I (at least partly) understand the draw toward celibacy and retention and desirelessness. I've felt it myself a great deal. That stuff has a strong aesthetic appeal, and as I've been exposed to 'high states', the whole body wants to be stably immersed in such states. And I can see that there are advantages for those that accomplish such things: tidy, powerful. But that doesn't mean that it (celibacy, etc) has been practically sustainable over the long term, for me.

 

And it ain't just me. There are plenty of extremely accomplished teachers who have (sometimes notoriously, sometimes on a more low key basis) had compulsory draw towards regular sexual sharing.

 

It really comes down to harmony. If you can harmonize in retention, etc, good for you. But if you can't, then determined long term attempts at such are likely to cause ... (wait for it) ... dis-harmony.

 

* badoom-bam *

[三江源]

Thats a good question. I'll be extremely opened and honest to you and infront of everyone else on the board. The last Taoist female practioner i was practicing with (was my teacher) actually played with my sexuality. she did not help me and she totally !@#$ed me up. I should have removed myself from the situation, I did not trust her to start out, and i shouldn't have continued to want to learn what she was teaching (which was what i wanted to learn, and had nothing to do with playing with my sexuality)

 

So, quite plainly put. It is extremely beneficial for us (males) to intereact with women on this energetic level.

I would also like to add most men you come in contact want to sabotage themselves, and/or they want to screw you up, and/or too overly screwed up to be helped.

 

Sadly enough every female I now-a-days come in contact with just want to screw me up more, or help me sabotage myself.

 

Hi, White Tiger. yes, I just meant energy exchange, not taking of yo clothes and writhing about.

 

I am surprised to hear you had this negative experience. Sorry too, of course. I dont believe that most men I come in contact with want to screw me up. But I do believe that they may be too screwed up to be helped. Sadly.

 

The whole arena of sexuality, even if we dont take of our clothes and writhe about, is so complex and charged. It's fascinating, and potentially depressing. As well as potentially hugely uplifting.

[Trunk]

A friend lent me a copy of the "white tigress" book, and I found it to promote a parasitic attitude/practices with the idea that they'd promote health and spiritual advancement. I'm usually not one to use such words; I usually think - by far - that most people want healthy exchange, not vampirism. This book did not have exchange in the context of deeper principles, as far as I saw.

 

discliamer: I didn't read the whole book by a long shot, but samplings of pages and then threw it away.

[WhiteTiger]

The whole arena of sexuality, even if we dont take of our clothes and writhe about, is so complex and charged. It's fascinating, and potentially depressing. As well as potentially hugely uplifting.

 

It definately requires lots of sensitivity, and to be yourself balanced, just to help someone else out with there sexuality.

 

I know, from being on both sides how emotionally charged the whole deal can be, I'm sure many also know.

[三江源]

A friend lent me a copy of the "white tigress" book, and I found it to promote a parasitic attitude/practices with the idea that they'd promote health and spiritual advancement. I'm usually not one to use such words; I usually think - by far - that most people want healthy exchange, not vampirism. This book did not have exchange in the context of deeper principles, as far as I saw.

 

discliamer: I didn't read the whole book by a long shot, but samplings of pages and then threw it away.

 

 

Hm, not good.

 

 

Do you know, Trunk, a book that you would say is teaching the principles of good energy exchange?

[Trunk]

.. a book that you would say is teaching the principles of good energy exchange?

 

None jump to mind that do that explicitly and clearly. But tons where the spirit behind the book is at least clearly "in bounds" along that line: Chia/Winn's books (which I don't generally recommend for other reasons), Margo Anand's books, almost every generic relationship book I've ever picked up.

 

And, don't get me wrong, I'm for healthy exchange - physically and energetically. And I think that most men enjoy 'giving' (ej.) occasionally, and that it's healthy, and that the woman should receive in whatever way is pleasurable, good for her...

 

But the attitude behind the white tigress book was just way, way into "out of bounds" territory. If you're curious, I'd suggest you browse at a bookstore before paying $ for it. The person who lent me the book said something along the line of "attitude between consenting adults" is everything. The attitude in that books was way way wrong, and I have a hard time even beginning to describe it just now. Though the word "parasitic" returns.

* yuck! *

* wants to throw away book a 2nd time *

 

This reminds me of the pua (pickup artist) thread some while back, and someone posted a video of "Mystery". I could see that the guy was confident, charismatic, and had system, skills. (And I think social skills are important; men should learn them.) But my primary response was that I wanted to take him aside and start breaking ribs. He felt "morally vacant" in important way/s that I haven't yet pin-pointed, can't currently describe, but that I feel are essential.

[Ian]

This reminds me of the pua (pickup artist) thread some while back, and someone posted a video of "Mystery". I could see that the guy was confident, charismatic, and had system, skills. (And I think social skills are important; men should learn them.) But my primary response was that I wanted to take him aside and start breaking ribs. He felt "morally vacant" in important way/s that I haven't yet pin-pointed, can't currently describe, but that I feel are essential.

 

Bless you! Have a cyberhug!

[三江源]

Trunk yes, I know Anand and lots of other books too, but as you say, they dont seem explicit enough, but actually there is a reason for that, I suspect.

 

 

As for the moral vacuity in Mystery and his cohorts. There is some very fundamental sense in which those types are looking for guidelines about how to live and why life works the way they see it working, and yet the conclusions that they draw are so fundamentally consumerist and cynical. The damaged psyche that is running the personal life of so many young men is bewildering to me.. it seems to be so widespread and it's contagious, it's numbing, and its spurious logic and theories are decaying to soul.

 

I'm hoping there will be a backlash of some sort. The pendulum must swing, thiough it is hard to imagine in what direction.

 

Reading Neil Strauss' book "The Game', in which real life Mystery features, gave some insight into his psyche. At the close of the book he is carted off for psychiatric help, having collapsed because of his g/f leaving him. His father was verbally abusive and distant. His childhood didnt seem to be anything I'd recognise as a childhood.

 

In a way, the way they lived and formulated their ideas was a lot like a Science Fiction fantasy of a disaffected burnt out future..

[gendao]

Edited April 24, 2008 by vortex

[宁]

 

they look like supertech hidrogen bombs too

 

 

 

 

as for the question: why celibacy and not retention?

 

- retention practices work with a specific type of sexual energy

 

- celibacy practices work with another type

 

they are different ingredients, for different purposes

 

good luck

 

L1

[freesun]

Drew, very interesting post thank you. Do you have a link to the Robert Sapolsky interview you are referring to?