Do right and wrong / good and evil exist

[Daniel]

What is your opinion of right-and-wrong or good-and-evil?  Do they exist?

 

I vote yes!  They do exist.

 

Theft, Murder, Rape, Kidnapping are all wrong and evil.

 

If wrong and evil exist, then certainly good and right exist.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Daniel
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[Shadao]

I believe they exist, however I also believe that one's education(by their parents and society, as well as by experience/life) will dictate which is which.

 

For example, one that grew up seeing theft or violence being considered the "right way" to achieve something(which in this case wiould be either "to survive" or "to be the strongest")will not see doing these actions as "wrong".

 

Because even if others say "it is wrong", the other people lived a different life than this person so they have not lived through their eyes to be able to understand their POV...and neither has the person in relation to those that deem these actions/things wrong.

 

Reality has alot about one's perspective...

[freeform]

10 hours ago, Daniel said:

I vote yes!  They do exist.

Who judges what’s wrong or right?

 

(I agree that they exist by the way - so it’s a genuine question that I’ve studied and curious what others think.)

 

Is there some natural law that does the judging? Is there a divine being that does it?

 

5 hours ago, Shadao said:

Reality has alot about one's perspective...

Similar question… what if two perspectives don’t quite agree? How do you know that one perspective is right and another is wrong? Is there ever an ultimate wrong or right that’s beyond perspectives? How does it work?

[Vajra Fist]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Is there some natural law that does the judging? Is there a divine being that does it?

 

This is a fascinating question. The obvious answer, which is perhaps most fashionable one among cultivation groups in the west, is that it is an impersonal natural law that dictates this.

 

Through some unseen mechanism, our actions that cause suffering toward others, generate karmic obscurations in our mind. Those obscurations create potentialities, that at the point of death result in a favourable or unfavourable rebirth. The so-called uneducated see this as a kind of divine punishment.

 

What I find fascinating is the question of where these karmic laws come from. If it is the structure of the universe, then who designed it to operate in that way?

 

Moreover, is there the possibility that deities encountered during the bardo state are not allegorical constructs, created to illustrate the operation of this natural law, but rather higher lives? For instance, the deities that attend Yama and offer judgement in the intermediate state, according to the bardo thodol, are very similar to those described in the Egyptian tradition (I.e. the weighing of souls and the mirror's reflection).

 

 

[helpfuldemon]

Evil is harming someone else's health, wealth, and liberty.

Good is to aid someone.

It is not okay to do Evil, except to combat Evil, such as, if someone harms another's health, wealth or liberty, it is okay to impose upon them as punishment for what they have done.

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

Who judges what’s wrong or right?

 

(I agree that they exist by the way - so it’s a genuine question that I’ve studied and curious what others think.)

 

Is there some natural law that does the judging? Is there a divine being that does it?

 

It's a really good question.  I don't honestly know.  It seems to me that the 4 examples of wrong action I provided in the OP are wrong by consensus.  Most people agree, I think, that murder, for example, is wrong.  Perhaps it originated when humans began collecting into communities and the community realized that there could not be peace if people murdered each other.  The same can be said for Rape, Kidnapping, and Theft.

 

I do beleive in a single divine being; but, I don't think that is the absolute source for morality, because Atheists have come to the same conclusion using empathy that Murder, Rape, Theft, Kidnapping is wrong.

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

Evil is harming someone else's health, wealth, and liberty.

Good is to aid someone.

It is not okay to do Evil, except to combat Evil, such as, if someone harms another's health, wealth or liberty, it is okay to impose upon them as punishment for what they have done.

 

An intersting thought:  If the punishment occurs in this life, then perhaps it reduces the karmic impact in the next life?

[helpfuldemon]

That is an interesting point.  Id say yes, but I don't really believe in reincarnation, but it fits the bill if it is true.  

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

Who judges what’s wrong or right?

 

The Judges.

 

8 hours ago, freeform said:

 

(I agree that they exist by the way - so it’s a genuine question that I’ve studied and curious what others think.)

 

Is there some natural law that does the judging? Is there a divine being that does it?

 

No . Right and wrong are a relative thing dependant on specific societies .  People from those societies versed in their law do the judging .

 

 

8 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Similar question… what if two perspectives don’t quite agree?

 

Then the judge sorts it out .

 

 

8 hours ago, freeform said:

How do you know that one perspective is right and another is wrong?

 

That would  be a wrong question for a judge , a judge would be deciding  based on conditions, circumstances , application, etc. In cases where  the 'persons' are from different cultural back grounds ( and different laws ) - thats why we developed inter tribal / international  law .  In this situation, in cases of conflicting opinion, again, a judge would sort it out .

 

When people's do not   ascribe to such 'tribunals '  or the process breaks down ; how do we sort it out ?

 

We fight it out .

 

8 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Is there ever an ultimate wrong or right that’s beyond perspectives? How does it work?

 

 

I am not sure anything is beyond perspectives .

[old3bob]

The Sovereign being, which puffed up human beings who are above it all and who would have a problem with such an idea,   is one with spiritual laws and automatically does not allow any BS. in the pure realm...so for a soul to remain there it is dependent upon them staying within or "doing right" according to the lawful nature of that realm and its Sovereign.   

Edited December 21, 2021 by old3bob

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

Right and wrong are a relative thing dependant on specific societies

 

So..... Focusing on murder is an easy example.  Whether or not murder is wrong is dependant on specific societies?  Certainly killing in self defense isn't wrong; but that's different.  Can you provide an example where murder is right?  Are there any societies that deem murder to be right?

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Daniel

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

The Sovereign being, which puffed up human beings who are above it all and who would have a problem with such an idea,   is one with spiritual laws and automatically does not allow any BS. in the pure realm...so for a soul to remain there it is dependent upon them staying within or "doing right" according to the lawful nature of that realm and its Sovereign.   

 

Very well said; but, do we currently live in the "pure realm"?  I agree that a pure realm exists; but, I'm not sure how relevant it is in the here and now.

[old3bob]

The highly mixed earth realm will someday evolve into a heaven type realm, thus the day is coming when all the dark forces here will no longer be able to penetrate or have influence on that new earth in any way - as they are now doing and have been doing for a very long time.

[freeform]

20 hours ago, Nungali said:

I am not sure anything is beyond perspectives

Interesting - so all good and bad are completely relative…

 

And it’s only the externalised, agreed-upon measures that a society upholds that is the only barometer for good and bad.

 

20 hours ago, Nungali said:

People from those societies versed in their law do the judging .

 

So all moral measures are simply an artifice of society?

 

Do you think people have no internal moral barometer at all?

[silent thunder]

Tao treats all as straw dogs.  That one phrase, repeated throughout the Tao, gave me pause for many years.  Seems to be a key in there, but then, who can trust the translations of translations over the centuries?

 

 

 

Good and Evil seem to be a completely human created concept that boils down to good being equal to what humans like/enjoy and evil what they detest or despise and this concept is fluid, altering throughout time and from tribe to tribe to a massive degree.

 

Doesn't seem there can be one barometer that acts as a catch all, for all regarding murder.  As recently as WW2 (how many innocent civilians killed in the name of good?) People were still hunting the 'long pork' and eating it in Papua New Guinnea.  Long Pork is what they called human meat. 

 

Objectively good/evil on murder?  Again I don't think so, it seems to only be a human made idea that is applied on a tribe by tribe basis as Nungali alludes to... certainly doesn't apply to animals who kill to eat does it?  Or is that not murder? 

 

It also does not hold for any modern society I am aware of, as we all participate in murder, indirectly or outright, every time meat is consumed.  Unless we further parse down the notion human-centrically to only apply evil towards the killing of humans.  

 

And while some folks have gone vegetarian, and even vegan, my son recently reminded someone that there are loads of bacteria killed in the boiling and eating of broccoli.  Not to mention that broccoli is alive.  Does it not matter that it has no face, or nerves? 

 

In the end, life lives on the consumption of other life.  Nothing good or bad about it, but what we ascribe.

 

 

At best it seems that some clumps of humans now and throughout history have held similar notions of good and evil, (perhaps this is what binds us as allies?)... but no one blanket catch all exists objectively, for when put to it, even these similarities are quite fluid, altering over time and within the society, or else, why do prisons exist?  Do we not praise the one who murders a rapist and prevents suffering?  Situational seems to be the ruling trait, not objectivity.

 

We certainly praise the soldiers who train and murder strangers.  Some downright worship them and award them medals for honor in battle; while detesting and hating the soldiers/strangers who do the same from the other side of the pitch.

 

I know what I consider to be evil and good has altered radically since I was in my 20's.  One of the more challenging to assimilate aspects of my waking process has been the unintended reworking of long held seemingly rock solid conceptualizations I was raised with such as this notion of murder as these concepts are revealed to be paper thin and to not apply in myriad situations and conditions of the fluidity of life.

Edited December 22, 2021 by silent thunder
reworded two sentences for clarity

[Vajra Fist]

If you look at it purely from a theoretical perspective, there is no reason why a certain course of action should be inherently good or bad. Those are qualities we ascribe to behaviour based on our acquired notions, which come from religious or societal conditioning.

 

But as a cultivator, I think it would be particularly difficult if not impossible to enter samadhi after murdering another human being.

 

Any action that causes another to experience a great degree of suffering, inevitably causes a great degree of mental karmic  obscurations. You'll sit and sit, but your mind won't become quiet.

 

This is why the five precepts are so important in Buddhism. Its not so much about being nice to other people as it is a means of keeping your mind in a pristine state, so you can enter samadhi.

 

Therefore acting in a way that causes others suffering is not so much evil, as it is unskillful. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Vajra Fist

[freeform]

How does karma fit into the view of ‘all notions of right and wrong are man made artifice’… maybe karma doesn’t fit?

[dwai]

My studied observation and consequent summarization is as follows --

 

Anything that takes us away from our True Nature is wrong/bad. Anything that leads us towards our True Nature is right/good. Of course, there are progressive gradations within our everyday experiences that contribute towards our trajectory in life with regards to the realization of/Being our True Nature (either towards or away from). Within each gradation are "micro-actions/events/expressions" which too can be similarly considered as "Good/Bad or Right/Wrong". 

 

I belong to the school of thought that our human existence is solely for the purpose of Realizing and Being our True Nature. 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by dwai

[freeform]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

Tao treats all as straw dogs.

I think the phrase is along the lines of “the sage treats all people as straw dogs”…

 

This phrase is important - and changes completely when one understands the more esoteric meaning of “people”…

 

In fact the “people” are mentioned a lot in the DDJ.

 

If we are to understand the DDJ from an internal perspective - if we understand it to be talking about something deep inside rather than out there in society, then we must find what ‘the people’ represent internally.

[Nungali]

17 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

So..... Focusing on murder is an easy example.  Whether or not murder is wrong is dependant on specific societies?  Certainly killing in self defense isn't wrong; but that's different.  Can you provide an example where murder is right?  Are there any societies that deem murder to be right?

 

 

Ummmm .... your own society ?  

Murder is a tricky one  as it technically means    ' the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.'

All we have to do is make that killing 'legal' ... and it is no longer 'murder' .

 

" You boys ..... take these guns and go and shoot those people over there , they are enemies of the state , it isnt murder as we are allowing you to do it  ( for us )   .....  actually , its  'heroic'  . "

 

Or if we want to murder someone like Bin Laden , we call it  'execution'  ... and its justified .   or, if we get rid of them before they cause us too much trouble  ; ' black ops elimination' .

 

'Murder' is a term used to describe  an act of killing  not sanctioned by the state .

 

here is my example of  when murder is right :

 

A policeman had a very sick criminal relative  who was a convicted child molester , a serious offender . Somehow he ket getting off lightly, finding legal loopholes , and being a real smart arse about it . He tells the policeman that next he is going to molest his kids , and fuck them up for life  .... and there is nothing he can do about it, until after  the  act and then he will be too late .

 

So one night  the policeman / father , off duty, puts on his police uniform, straps on his service revolver and goes around to see  the other . he nocks on his door, asks him to come outside for a chat on the driveway and when he comes outside the policeman shoots him in the head .

 

During his court case, the judge was very sympathetic , but instructs the jury  that they must find him guilty of murder ;  he admits he killed the man , illegally and with forethought and planning  " You MUST find him guilty , however any extenuating circumstances and leniency  in his punishment  is my responsibility , I am the one that takes that into account , but you are the one's that decide if the act was committed ... and it was . I am the one that decides the punishment , if any is to be administered . "

 

The jury returned after a short deliberation;  ' Not guilty. '  The judge was furious, but what could he do .

 

I consider, and the 12 unanimous jury considered  , and much of the Australian public  considered his act of murder justified ( even without a judge deciding )

 

 

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

So..... Focusing on murder is an easy example.  Whether or not murder is wrong is dependant on specific societies?  Certainly killing in self defense isn't wrong; but that's different.  Can you provide an example where murder is right?  Are there any societies that deem murder to be right?

 

 

Also there are societies that within that society murder is 'right' ;  Thuggee , Hashishim (Society of Assasins * ) ,  various Islamic terrorist groups .

 

 

* Here is a question to consider  (regarding Hashishim society)  ; is it right to murder one person and eliminate them (and thus causing a threat and fear to others similar)  that was planning to influence a decision to invade your country  with war ?

 

Is it right NOT to murder them and allow the invasion to proceed and hope your military can defend your country (or group)  with the loss of countless innocent lives of civilians  ?

 

[liminal_luke]

Most people and cultures have a moral code, a deep sense that some actions are right and others wrong.  We may disagree about the nature of right and wrong actions, but we tend to agree that there is such a thing as right and wrong.  When asked to define pornography in 1964, US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart famously said "I know it when I see it."  That's how I feel about evil.

 

Personally, I'm not OK with the murder of human beings but am OK knowing that other animals and plants die so that I can live.  I'm not OK with the death penalty but am OK with women who choose to have abortions (as emotionally complicated as that choice may be).  I'm OK with people in terrible pain deciding to end their own lives.  Other Bums doubtless think differently.  

 

If I did something deeply against my own moral code (like kill someone) I'd probably vomit.  Throwing up is a good barometer of evil, a sure sign that my body is unable to assimilate my actions.  The world would be a much better place if everybody just avoided doing things that made them want to upchuck.  That would be a good place to start.

 

I believe that evil fragments and good unifies.  Daoist teachers I've listened to have used phrases like "the mind becoming one with the heart."  They've talked about the 3 dan tiens coming together.  I think there's something about this coming together process that transcends cultural differences.  If I do something and it tears me apart, I'm probably on the wrong track.  If doing something allows for more integration and unification, it's probably not so bad.  This is how I judge.

 

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Interesting - so all good and bad are completely relative…

 

And it’s only the externalised, agreed-upon measures that a society upholds that is the only barometer for good and bad.

 

Well, of course ! 

 

Otherwise we would all be  animal murdering / torturing , demonic , all devouring , pestilence .    

 

 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

So all moral measures are simply an artifice of society?

 

'Artifices of society' can be highly spiritual.

 

 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Do you think people have no internal moral barometer at all?

 

Of course they do .  I dont see why an internal moral barometer can not be instilled and trained by artifices of the society we are in .

 

In my years of study of Anthropology  I have encountered many people and groups  whose 'morals'  and sense of 'right' seem HIGHLY at variance to others , yet WITHIN their own society and culture  seem acceptable , and in some cases even desirable and moral .

 

perhaps what you are  are seeking or questioning about is an 'across the board  ' measuring stick .   A standard  to apply to see if a society or culture has 'lost the plot ' , even though it thinks itself  moral and valid .  Thats a tricky one  and I had to develop such a set of indicators to be able to define the stages and influences of socio-cultural decay for my 'Cultures in Crisis' paper.

 

It wasn't easy and took a fair amount of time and research . Still, a lot of it was based more on 'logic', on a deep level , rather than 'morals '   eg ; 2 of the indicators are  ;   abuse of children , abuse of elders .  To not do that  might seem moral, superficially , but the reason it can be applied beyond morality and across the board  is that a society needs the  children as new members of that society , or it will die out  .... so, dont kill all or too many of the children ( and here we broach the 'cruel laws of nature ' ) . The same with the elders , if they are abused or wiped out , their experience and knowledge and contribution to the groups 'intellectual property ' / survival   would be lost .

[Nungali]

34 minutes ago, dwai said:

My studied observation and consequent summarization is as follows --

 

Anything that takes us away from our True Nature is wrong/bad. Anything that leads us towards our True Nature is right/good. Of course, there are progressive gradations within our everyday experiences that contribute towards our trajectory in life with regards to the realization of/Being our True Nature (either towards or away from). Within each gradation are "micro-actions/events/expressions" which too can be similarly considered as "Good/Bad or Right/Wrong". 

 

I belong to the school of thought that our human existence is solely for the purpose of Realizing and Being our True Nature. 

 

 

 

 

 

Do what thou Wilt   dwai .

[silent thunder]

Here are three translations of Verse 5.

 

J Legge

Heaven and earth do not act from (the impulse of) any wish to be benevolent; they deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt with. The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent; they deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with.

May not the space between heaven and earth be compared to a bellows?

‘Tis emptied, yet it loses not its power;
‘Tis moved again, and sends forth air the more.
Much speech to swift exhaustion lead we see;
Your inner being guard, and keep it free.

 

 

 Tao Te Ching Chapter 5

J H McDonald

Heaven and Earth are impartial;
they treat all of creation as straw dogs.
The Master doesn’t take sides;
she treats everyone like a straw dog.

The space between Heaven and Earth is like a bellows;
it is empty, yet has not lost its power.
The more it is used, the more it produces;
the more you talk of it, the less you comprehend.

It is better not to speak of things you do not understand.

 

 Tao Te Ching Chapter 5

Lin Yutang

Nature is unkind:
It treats the creation like sacrificial straw-dogs.
The Sage is unkind:
He treats the people like sacrificial straw-dogs.

How the universe is like a bellows!
Empty, yet it gives a supply that never fails;
The more it is worked, the more it brings forth.

By many words is wit exhausted.
Rather, therefore, hold to the core.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by silent thunder