Most of the esoteric knowledge out there is incomplete on purpose

[freeform]

16 hours ago, daojones said:

Trying to break the fire analogy down like that was an ineffective form of argumentation. 

 

Bear in mind that I’m not arguing, I’m discussing.

If you didn’t understand what I meant, then try this.

 

A student only needs to learn to light a fire using the tools provided.

 

A teacher needs to fully understand every nuance of the process under all conditions.
 

How do you light a fire in the cold… how do you do it in the wind… what about if it’s damp… what if your hands are numb? What changes the process when at a higher elevation? What precautions do you need to take if you’re in an arid, dry environment?

 

Secondly the teacher needs to know why you’re lighting the fire. A fire is never for the sake of fire… it may be to heat, to light, to cook or to scare away animals, for creating smoke to pacify bees… the way you build the fire changes according to each context.

 

This is to illustrate firstly Cause, Effect and Conditions. Secondly it’s to illustrate Causal Chains.

 

A teacher needs to have in-depth experience and understanding of all of these aspects to help a student progress efficiently and safely. Anything else will slowly erode the art and potentially hurt students (and the teacher too).

 

16 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

The system I study however is purely a technology, and perhaps even anti-spiritual at least as far as the word spiritual is commonly used nowadays. 

Firstly, just so we’re talking about the same thing - what does ‘spiritual as commonly used nowadays’ mean to you?

 

I agree it’s all over the place - everything from how you dress and whether you have crystals to what books you read…

 

But for cultivators it’s worth having a very specific unambiguous definition.

 

For me it’s quite simple - it means working with the Yuan Shen - Original Spirit.

 

So I’d agree that much of the work involved is not ‘spiritual’ - it’s simply the setting up of Causal Chains and Conditions to allow access to the spiritual.

 

While much of the work is mechanistic and very simple - in that there’s a precise Cause and Effect - but as you progress, it is the Conditions that become more and more important.

 

Eventually the Cause becomes super simple… but whether the desired Effect appears becomes based on Conditions.

 

For example the method (Cause) for entering Samadhi or Jhanna or Chan is extremely simple: sit still.

 

Yet the vast majority of people never manage to access the effect - because they don’t have the Conditions for meditation to arise.

 

16 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

For example the bow tool example earlier, anyone can learn to make a fire via friction, it just takes dedication, and a lot of elbow grease.

When Cause and Effect have few Conditions between them, then they are, indeed simple… but as you continue onto ever more subtle processes that produce the rather large transformative change, you’ll find that things aren’t so simple - and there’s a real art to the science.

 

A true teacher - at least one who is leading a student into spiritual cultivation needs to be a true master of both the art and science of the method or process they’re teaching. They have to be waaaaaaay ahead of the student.

 

Though of course the mechanistic stuff early on is teachable by someone who’s really proficient but not necessarily a master… but it takes a master to decide whether they’re proficient enough to teach (in my opinion).

 

16 hours ago, daojones said:

estoric teachings don't have to come from a human.

Yeahhh wasn’t there a member recently kicked off the forum whose teachings didn’t come from a human? 
 

I mean you’re right - but this is only true once you’ve learned and mastered everything a human master can teach you… jumping into this realm before that’s the case almost always results in delusion.

 

16 hours ago, daojones said:

People do what they do, with permission or without...that's kind of how were in the situation were in with regards to so many traditions being fractured and the truth being unknown. Those who are meant to know, will know

I agree with that. The issue I have is that the ones who don’t know (and most don’t) get ensnared in very destructive and abusive cults at worst - or just waste their time and money at best.

[Iliketurtles]

20 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Bear in mind that I’m not arguing, I’m discussing.

If you didn’t understand what I meant, then try this.

 

A student only needs to learn to light a fire using the tools provided.

 

A teacher needs to fully understand every nuance of the process under all conditions.
 

How do you light a fire in the cold… how do you do it in the wind… what about if it’s damp… what if your hands are numb? What changes the process when at a higher elevation? What precautions do you need to take if you’re in an arid, dry environment?

 

Secondly the teacher needs to know why you’re lighting the fire. A fire is never for the sake of fire… it may be to heat, to light, to cook or to scare away animals, for creating smoke to pacify bees… the way you build the fire changes according to each context.

 

This is to illustrate firstly Cause, Effect and Conditions. Secondly it’s to illustrate Causal Chains.

 

A teacher needs to have in-depth experience and understanding of all of these aspects to help a student progress efficiently and safely. Anything else will slowly erode the art and potentially hurt students (and the teacher too).

 

Firstly, just so we’re talking about the same thing - what does ‘spiritual as commonly used nowadays’ mean to you?

 

I agree it’s all over the place - everything from how you dress and whether you have crystals to what books you read…

 

But for cultivators it’s worth having a very specific unambiguous definition.

 

For me it’s quite simple - it means working with the Yuan Shen - Original Spirit.

 

So I’d agree that much of the work involved is not ‘spiritual’ - it’s simply the setting up of Causal Chains and Conditions to allow access to the spiritual.

 

While much of the work is mechanistic and very simple - in that there’s a precise Cause and Effect - but as you progress, it is the Conditions that become more and more important.

 

Eventually the Cause becomes super simple… but whether the desired Effect appears becomes based on Conditions.

 

For example the method (Cause) for entering Samadhi or Jhanna or Chan is extremely simple: sit still.

 

Yet the vast majority of people never manage to access the effect - because they don’t have the Conditions for meditation to arise.

 

When Cause and Effect have few Conditions between them, then they are, indeed simple… but as you continue onto ever more subtle processes that produce the rather large transformative change, you’ll find that things aren’t so simple - and there’s a real art to the science.

 

A true teacher - at least one who is leading a student into spiritual cultivation needs to be a true master of both the art and science of the method or process they’re teaching. They have to be waaaaaaay ahead of the student.

 

Though of course the mechanistic stuff early on is teachable by someone who’s really proficient but not necessarily a master… but it takes a master to decide whether they’re proficient enough to teach (in my opinion).

 

Yeahhh wasn’t there a member recently kicked off the forum whose teachings didn’t come from a human? 
 

I mean you’re right - but this is only true once you’ve learned and mastered everything a human master can teach you… jumping into this realm before that’s the case almost always results in delusion.

 

I agree with that. The issue I have is that the ones who don’t know (and most don’t) get ensnared in very destructive and abusive cults at worst - or just waste their time and money at best.

 

Perhaps if you need a Level 4 Usui Reiki Attunement Certificate (TM)  to hang on your wall, then something like that might require blessings, permission, and perhaps a lot of money. 

 

Learning to make a fire with a bow tool, not so much.

 

With a pure technology it either works as described or it doesn't. 

 

Learning a pure technology does not require a teacher's blessing or permission.

 

I personally try to focus on what I consider to be good evidence and results, and so the practices I am interested in gravitate towards those. 

 

I find spiritual woo, and similar trappings repulsive.

 

I see the results people who pursue those practices get and it isn't something that interests me.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Iliketurtles

[Wu Ming Jen]

Fire is inside wood this is why the fire can be lit. The true knowledge (knowing without knowing) is inside us. This is why we are capable to understand. Use the teachings as a match to lit the fire of understanding inside us. Mostly don't look outside for information to make sense. That is the world of misdirection, confusion and all aliments one may have IME ( E = experience)

[Shadow_self]

On 30/12/2021 at 7:47 PM, Iliketurtles said:

“Those who know don’t talk.

Those who talk don’t know."

 

There are several books written about the art I study available on amazon. They were written by charlatans which contain nothing but disinformation. 

 

There are tons of people on Facebook who put together fake practice guide PDFs and label it as instruction for our school.

 

One of the challenges I find is that new students eagerly absorb this disinformation and accept it as true,  but later are unwilling to admit that they got duped. 

 

It seems to be a weird quirk of the human psyche, we must defend at all costs what we learned as true, even the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

Learning things is easy, but admitting you learned false information and accepted it as true is so difficult it might as well be impossible for most people. 

 

For every person that knows what they are talking about, there are a million who do not.

 

These million voices are all screaming much louder than the one that has a clue. 

 

It is impossible to transmit accurate information in such an environment, it is like trying to speak softly in front of a waterfall.

 

Another problem is that for whatever reason the majority of people attracted to things of this nature are not really firing on all cylinders, they lack the faculties to discern reality from fantasy and as such love to collect everything with no regard to it's legitimacy, and they also love to play the role of a teacher and re-transmit all the garbage they have collected with their own unique "eclectic" spin on it.

You wind up with something like a game of telephone or Chinese whispers like this:

 

 

 

 

Can you honestly argue the point that you have an art per se...as I understand it, all that is available of the Mo Pai is  scraps of information...Jim is dead, as is John...Kostas is dissociated and so you are working with something entirely out of context....

 

Unless you have a teacher who you can really interact with, ask questions as you are going on your journey and they can demonstrate a level of skill sufficient to show mastery over a certain set of skills...One could  possibly argue you are moreso a dabbler than a student

 

On 30/12/2021 at 8:14 PM, freeform said:

If you haven’t been allowed to teach something you should not be teaching it. Either it’s for the sake of your own development, the development of your students, or the preservation of the art itself. 

 

 

100%....Especially given what's about to come due to the effects of last years conjunction...if someone doesn't know what coming as a result of this...they shouldn't be instructing anyone...because the potential for bad things happening just increased exponentially...no method  alone will save someone from this, it is genuine, authentic ongoing instruction and discernment that will be the deciding factors in my opinion at least

 

On 30/12/2021 at 8:27 PM, Iliketurtles said:

 

I am sure there are a lot of spiritual systems that require transmission.

 

The system I study however is purely a technology, and perhaps even anti-spiritual at least as far as the word spiritual is commonly used nowadays. 

 

For such systems either it works as described, produces results, or it doesn't.

 

For example the bow tool example earlier, anyone can learn to make a fire via friction, it just takes dedication, and a lot of elbow grease.  

 

You don't need a spiritual transmission because  this is just a technology and it isn't spiritual. 

 

I personally prefer systems that have decoupled the "woo" factor, and focus purely on technology.  

 

No need to philosophize and study hexagrams, bones, visualize  and chant mantras.

 

Just do the work, and realize the results. 

 

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

 

Mo Pai is far more spiritual than you realize...all nei gong is a bridge to the spiritual...In fact it is the bridge.....thinking that spirituality = woo shows quite a lack of understanding regards the matter

 

16 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Bear in mind that I’m not arguing, I’m discussing.

If you didn’t understand what I meant, then try this.

 

A student only needs to learn to light a fire using the tools provided.

 

A teacher needs to fully understand every nuance of the process under all conditions.
 

How do you light a fire in the cold… how do you do it in the wind… what about if it’s damp… what if your hands are numb? What changes the process when at a higher elevation? What precautions do you need to take if you’re in an arid, dry environment?

 

Secondly the teacher needs to know why you’re lighting the fire. A fire is never for the sake of fire… it may be to heat, to light, to cook or to scare away animals, for creating smoke to pacify bees… the way you build the fire changes according to each context.

 

This is to illustrate firstly Cause, Effect and Conditions. Secondly it’s to illustrate Causal Chains.

 

A teacher needs to have in-depth experience and understanding of all of these aspects to help a student progress efficiently and safely. Anything else will slowly erode the art and potentially hurt students (and the teacher too).

 

Firstly, just so we’re talking about the same thing - what does ‘spiritual as commonly used nowadays’ mean to you?

 

I agree it’s all over the place - everything from how you dress and whether you have crystals to what books you read…

 

But for cultivators it’s worth having a very specific unambiguous definition.

 

For me it’s quite simple - it means working with the Yuan Shen - Original Spirit.

 

So I’d agree that much of the work involved is not ‘spiritual’ - it’s simply the setting up of Causal Chains and Conditions to allow access to the spiritual.

 

While much of the work is mechanistic and very simple - in that there’s a precise Cause and Effect - but as you progress, it is the Conditions that become more and more important.

 

Eventually the Cause becomes super simple… but whether the desired Effect appears becomes based on Conditions.

 

For example the method (Cause) for entering Samadhi or Jhanna or Chan is extremely simple: sit still.

 

Yet the vast majority of people never manage to access the effect - because they don’t have the Conditions for meditation to arise.

 

When Cause and Effect have few Conditions between them, then they are, indeed simple… but as you continue onto ever more subtle processes that produce the rather large transformative change, you’ll find that things aren’t so simple - and there’s a real art to the science.

 

A true teacher - at least one who is leading a student into spiritual cultivation needs to be a true master of both the art and science of the method or process they’re teaching. They have to be waaaaaaay ahead of the student.

 

Though of course the mechanistic stuff early on is teachable by someone who’s really proficient but not necessarily a master… but it takes a master to decide whether they’re proficient enough to teach (in my opinion).

 

Yeahhh wasn’t there a member recently kicked off the forum whose teachings didn’t come from a human? 
 

I mean you’re right - but this is only true once you’ve learned and mastered everything a human master can teach you… jumping into this realm before that’s the case almost always results in delusion.

 

I agree with that. The issue I have is that the ones who don’t know (and most don’t) get ensnared in very destructive and abusive cults at worst - or just waste their time and money at best.

 

Perhaps that book will surface in 2022, seriously...if you just gathered what you wrote on the forum, people would buy it! So well said!

 

14 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

Perhaps if you need a Level 4 Usui Reiki Attunement Certificate (TM)  to hang on your wall, then something like that might require blessings, permission, and perhaps a lot of money. 

 

Learning to make a fire with a bow tool, not so much.

 

With a pure technology it either works as described or it doesn't. 

 

Learning a pure technology does not require a teacher's blessing or permission.

 

I personally try to focus on what I consider to be good evidence and results, and so the practices I am interested gravitate towards those. 

 

I find spiritual woo, and similar trappings repulsive.

 

I see the results people who pursue those practices get and it isn't something that interests me.

 

Learning anything from a lineage does require blessing to some extent...because the subtle connections you make to a "current" when engaging in their practices are very real....and they can and do have ramifications....results have  nothing to do with the fact....the issue is your inability to perceive that which lies beneath the objective sense faculties, or the inability to develop the sense faculties (and extrasensory ones)  to a degree that they operate in a manner that these things can be peered into....

 

Lineage based practices, can in a sense be thought of like rituals. Rituals gather power over time...initiation is key here...because things are done to the energetic/spiritual bodies...connections are formed.. "stamps" if you would are imprinted...its all quite complex. Fu's, talismans, mantras, mudras....when laypeople try some of these (not all) they sometimes dont work...reason being is that connection isnt there....that thing you think is "woo"....the mechanisms behind these things...they explain how these things work quite well...and to those who have been given access....are quite verifiable....but being outside the door means being outside the door....calling something woo, just because you cannot access evidence to verify it is a logical fallacy

 

Seeing as you are trying so hard to Westernise and objectify these things...lets use some logic

 

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

[Iliketurtles]

11 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Can you honestly argue the point that you have an art per se...as I understand it, all that is available of the Mo Pai is  scraps of information...Jim is dead, as is John...Kostas is dissociated and so you are working with something entirely out of context....

 

Unless you have a teacher who you can really interact with, ask questions as you are going on your journey and they can demonstrate a level of skill sufficient to show mastery over a certain set of skills...One could  possibly argue you are moreso a dabbler than a student

 

 

100%....Especially given what's about to come due to the effects of last years conjunction...if someone doesn't know what coming as a result of this...they shouldn't be instructing anyone...because the potential for bad things happening just increased exponentially...no method  alone will save someone from this, it is genuine, authentic ongoing instruction and discernment that will be the deciding factors in my opinion at least

 

 

Mo Pai is far more spiritual than you realize...all nei gong is a bridge to the spiritual...In fact it is the bridge.....thinking that spirituality = woo shows quite a lack of understanding regards the matter

 

 

Perhaps that book will surface in 2022, seriously...if you just gathered what you wrote on the forum, people would buy it! So well said!

 

 

Learning anything from a lineage does require blessing to some extent...because the subtle connections you make to a "current" when engaging in their practices are very real....and they can and do have ramifications....results have  nothing to do with the fact....the issue is your inability to perceive that which lies beneath the objective sense faculties, or the inability to develop the sense faculties (and extrasensory ones)  to a degree that they operate in a manner that these things can be peered into....

 

Lineage based practices, can in a sense be thought of like rituals. Rituals gather power over time...initiation is key here...because things are done to the energetic/spiritual bodies...connections are formed.. "stamps" if you would are imprinted...its all quite complex. Fu's, talismans, mantras, mudras....when laypeople try some of these (not all) they sometimes dont work...reason being is that connection isnt there....that thing you think is "woo"....the mechanisms behind these things...they explain how these things work quite well...and to those who have been given access....are quite verifiable....but being outside the door means being outside the door....calling something woo, just because you cannot access evidence to verify it is a logical fallacy

 

Seeing as you are trying so hard to Westernise and objectify these things...lets use some logic

 

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

 

"Can you honestly argue the point that you have an art per se."

 

Yes.

 

"as I understand it, all that is available of X"

"X is far more spiritual than you realize.."

 

I haven't mentioned my school here to prevent trolling.

"X is dead, as is Y...Z is dissociated and so you are working with something entirely out of context...."

That's a thing that happens. Teachers die.  They take students, and they pass the torch.  That is how all this works for all arts.  We have video of our teacher giving instruction, and we have students that studied directly under him, and taught many of us directly.  You can keep on with your mental gymnastics though, if it makes you feel better about all of it.

 

"Unless you have a teacher who you can really interact with, ask questions as you are going on your journey and they can demonstrate a level of skill sufficient to show mastery over a certain set of skills..."

 

We do.

 

"you are moreso a dabbler than a student"

 

I do not appreciate the hostility here.

"X is far more spiritual than you realize.."

 

I will have to disagree with you here.  In the common sense of the word spiritual the art I study is not.  It is purely a technology and absolutely nothing more.

"thinking that spirituality = woo shows quite a lack of understanding regards the matter"

 

Most things which can be regarded as spiritual are nothing more than woo, but you are certainly free to disagree here.

 

"Learning anything from a lineage does require blessing to some extent..."

 

You can learn to light a fire with a bow tool, and no blessing is required.

 

"rituals gather power over time...initiation is key here..."

"things are done to the energetic/spiritual bodies...connections are formed.. "stamps" if you would are imprinted...its all quite complex"

 

This is the sort of woo I was talking about.  If magical thinking is your thing more power to you.  I prefer what I consider to be good evidence and results any day. 

 

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

 

Certainly this is a good observation.

 

I try to be as fluid as is possible about what I believe, and I constantly re-evaluate based on available evidence. 

 

When I find what I consider to be good evidence I try to question current paradigms that I hold and re-evaluate them in light of the new evidence.  

 

As of last year some new evidence surfaced which forced me to re-evaluate something which I had previously disregarded. 

 

I don't get it right all the time, no one does but it is important to me to be able to justify and defend beliefs I do hold as true with what I consider the best evidence available to me. 

 

I personally need what I consider to be good evidence to feel grounded in reality, and I am very uncomfortable believing anything at all without it.  

 

Certainly it's not perfect, but it seems the least bad strategy for getting closer to the truth than any other method I am aware of. 

 

We all make maps of reality, some people choose to believe a lot of silly things that aren't true.

 

I prefer to make my map of reality using what I consider the best evidence available to me,  that seems reasonable, down to earth and grounded. 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Iliketurtles

[Iliketurtles]

Edited January 1, 2022 by Iliketurtles

[Cleansox]

On 2021-12-30 at 8:47 PM, Iliketurtles said:

 

There are several books written about the art I study available on amazon. They were written by charlatans which contain nothing but disinformation. 

 

 

 

This is my experience as well. 

I have a small collection of books and pdf's describing my method, the complete method, and nothing but the method; most of it are the notes one is handed on the first introductory days of practice, the rest is severely mixed up with stuff that the author happened to practice parallel to this at the time of the writing. 

[Nungali]

On 01/01/2022 at 3:15 AM, Wu Ming Jen said:

Fire is inside wood this is why the fire can be lit. The true knowledge (knowing without knowing) is inside us. This is why we are capable to understand. Use the teachings as a match to lit the fire of understanding inside us. Mostly don't look outside for information to make sense. That is the world of misdirection, confusion and all aliments one may have IME ( E = experience)

 

Sun is inside wood .  A tree spends all its life absorbing sun . When it burns it gives back out  the Sun - light and heat .

 

 

( actually 'fire' , as an alchemical element,  is inside everything  . )

[silent thunder]

To me, Agni's fire burns within every aspect of creation... each at its own level.

[Shadow_self]

21 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

"Can you honestly argue the point that you have an art per se."

 

Yes.

 

"as I understand it, all that is available of X"

"X is far more spiritual than you realize.."

 

I haven't mentioned my school here to prevent trolling.

"X is dead, as is Y...Z is dissociated and so you are working with something entirely out of context...."

That's a thing that happens. Teachers die.  They take students, and they pass the torch.  That is how all this works for all arts.  We have video of our teacher giving instruction, and we have students that studied directly under him, and taught many of us directly.  You can keep on with your mental gymnastics though, if it makes you feel better about all of it.

 

"Unless you have a teacher who you can really interact with, ask questions as you are going on your journey and they can demonstrate a level of skill sufficient to show mastery over a certain set of skills..."

 

We do.

 

"you are moreso a dabbler than a student"

 

I do not appreciate the hostility here.

"X is far more spiritual than you realize.."

 

I will have to disagree with you here.  In the common sense of the word spiritual the art I study is not.  It is purely a technology and absolutely nothing more.

"thinking that spirituality = woo shows quite a lack of understanding regards the matter"

 

Most things which can be regarded as spiritual are nothing more than woo, but you are certainly free to disagree here.

 

"Learning anything from a lineage does require blessing to some extent..."

 

You can learn to light a fire with a bow tool, and no blessing is required.

 

"rituals gather power over time...initiation is key here..."

"things are done to the energetic/spiritual bodies...connections are formed.. "stamps" if you would are imprinted...its all quite complex"

 

This is the sort of woo I was talking about.  If magical thinking is your thing more power to you.  I prefer what I consider to be good evidence and results any day. 

 

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

 

Certainly this is a good observation.

 

I try to be as fluid as is possible about what I believe, and I constantly re-evaluate based on available evidence. 

 

When I find what I consider to be good evidence I try to question current paradigms that I hold and re-evaluate them in light of the new evidence.  

 

As of last year some new evidence surfaced which forced me to re-evaluate something which I had previously disregarded. 

 

I don't get it right all the time, no one does but it is important to me to be able to justify and defend beliefs I do hold as true with what I consider the best evidence available to me. 

 

I personally need what I consider to be good evidence to feel grounded in reality, and I am very uncomfortable believing anything at all without it.  

 

Certainly it's not perfect, but it seems the least bad strategy for getting closer to the truth than any other method I am aware of. 

 

We all make maps of reality, some people choose to believe a lot of silly things that aren't true.

 

I prefer to make my map of reality using what I consider the best evidence available to me,  that seems reasonable, down to earth and grounded. 

 

Yes.

 

OK, so what are the usual tenents of an art, and how does your position fit that criteria?

 

I haven't mentioned my school here to prevent trolling.

 

Well, everyone knows it is Mo Pai because of the language....the posts are always the same tone....

 

But anyway. Is it your school? Are you an initiate??

 

I study Longmen/Quanzhen methods, but it is not my school, and I am no initiate...Do you honestly understand what initiation actually means?

 

From an energetic/spiritual perspective I think you may have already demonstrated you don't but even at a practical level?

 

Just to add...Standing outside the gates of Harvard with  some an  dropout student notes and a video recording of a professor does not make you a person of the school...You understand this correct?

 

I empathize with your need to identify with something you feel passionate about...but I'm not sure I agree with you calling it your school

That's a thing that happens. Teachers die.  They take students, and they pass the torch.  That is how all this works for all arts.  We have video of our teacher giving instruction, and we have students that studied directly under him, and taught many of us directly.  You can keep on with your mental gymnastics though, if it makes you feel better about all of it.

 

Actually it is not so straightforward.....The person who inherited the Mo Pai Lineage....he is the one with the say on who's in and who's out...who is an initiate and who is not...So the torch was never passed to Jim, Kostas or any Westerner....and actually...there's a lot more to their story that is not public either....Much more

 

Does he recognize you as a student? Have you been initiated?  Keep in mind there are people you may not know about who have close ties to these individuals....and visit them in Indonesia

 

We do.

So you are being directly instructed by the teacher of the Current Mo Pai lineage then? If not, then by who exactly

 

I do not appreciate the hostility here.

 

You have taken my words and made them black and white....what I said was If you have no  living teacher it could be argued that you are  dabbling...you have not told me...so I await your response

 

I will have to disagree with you here.  In the common sense of the word spiritual the art I study is not.  It is purely a technology and absolutely nothing more.

 

You may disagree all you want, you are incorrect.....Have you considered the common use of the term is the issue, rather than the term its self

 

Are you aiming to break the samsaric cycle? If you are then it is spiritual....because thats what all real spiritual traditions are concerned with...the how and why are unimportant....the after death state was and is always the endgame

 

Most things which can be regarded as spiritual are nothing more than woo, but you are certainly free to disagree here.

 

I just did...though I agree many things are woo...there are equally many things that are not....

 

You can learn to light a fire with a bow tool, and no blessing is required.

 

Explain exactly what you are referencing when you say light a fire...awaken the LDT? 

 

This is the sort of woo I was talking about.  If magical thinking is your thing more power to you.  I prefer what I consider to be good evidence and results any day. 

 

Had you said this a few years ago to me, id totally agree with you...However, Ive had experiences via my own practices, especially in the last few months......you can be sure there is nothing magical about it....my own job is in experimental research (the same people you guys pay to answer your questions if you feel it will support your arguments), so I know how to verify something when I need to

 

I prefer to make my map of reality using what I consider the best evidence available to me,  that seems reasonable, down to earth and grounded. 

 

If you are really studying what you say you are, and going through an authentic neigong process...your definitions of grounded, down to earth and reasonable will all become very much malleable.....and I say that from a place of skepticism 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 28.12.2021 at 5:01 PM, Seeking said:

Have you noticed this? Maybe its just the Chinese way of disinfo to weed out the real from the fake by who sees through the trick and who falls, hook line and sink. The way I see it is like this:

 

Intuitively I sense that a lot of practices/forms that are in the public domain are either obviously watered down, incomplete or just straight up forgeries of the real deal. Its hard to express linguistically because intuition is preverbal but on an energetic level its like this:

 

There is a "field" shall we say, an energetic blueprint of wholeness that is around certain forms. One very popular form on here has it present and correct but only at the foundational/middle level as there are higher aspects of it that are obviously not released to the public yet. Its like I can feel the "shape" of the form, its non physical point of origin and then there is whats being taught and you can compare and contrast the sensations, if you get what I'm saying? Like a glass half filled with negative space in the rest. Whats that old saying? "If a man is thirsty give him half a cup. If he truly thirsts he will ask for more". Like I said, its cultural and naturally ingrained in the Eastern belief system and seems obvious to me.

 

I do get the feeling that during the Qigong boom of the 70s lots of half assed info was spread that was then further mangled in translation with compounded errors added on by "Masters" in the West who pay obesience to Oriental gentlemen that aren't actually equipped to sweep the temple steps, let alone guide anyone else. Simply put they're faking it to people who can't tell the difference anyway.

 

Its super common in the magick field for those of you who know as Grimoires are parallel to a form and people hold them close to their chest. Workings that are shared are often flipped, edited or distorted to keep the originator in a place of power or just to plain through the followers off course and waste their time in pointless busy work. The parallel in the energy fields is quite evident and I'm wondering if anyone else has spotted it?

 

Out of respect I won't be naming names as to what I see as fraudulent as that really doesn't serve any purpose as its up to the practitioner to be discerning and heed that inner wisdom. Sometimes its like this:

 

 

Where the whole practice is correct but taught "off script" so that the pieces are in the incorrect order and there is not optimal correlation with the energy field of the form in its optimal state. Others are more like:

 

 

In that what you have will never fit, no matter what you try. Most people are just happy enough to have some pieces to play with due to the distraction and busy work it brings even if cumulatively they are running on an energetic treadmill as a total waste of their effort.

 

Intuition is preverbal but hopefully you get my imagery and intent. There are also loads of other factors like cultural cues which are self evident and felt like they never needed to be expressed when mouth to ear teachings were written down only to have them literally translated centuries later and make absolutely no sense. Yet people dare not question "the old ways" because they lack the discernment to see what I've outlined.

 

Do you agree or disagree? Or is my attitude of nonchalant bravado showing again?

 

Hi Seeking

 

True, esoteric teachings are sometimes incomplete -- for a variety of reasons. And not all of them are of a mischievous nature.

 

Yes, sometimes there is a limited amount of information offered just as a "teaser" ("come visit my $5000 seminar and we will teach you the rest"). Sometimes something is meant just for beginners -- to be supplemented with more advanced information at a later stage (either by the original teacher, another teacher or "your inner teacher"). Sometimes the author was themself unaware of what was missing. Sometimes some important information was lost in translation. There are many "sometimes", many possibilities... It may be hard to put a label on a given case.

 

But he, why bother? Is the cup you mentioned half-empty or half-full to you?

 

If you (as you say) can sense what is missing, or how a practice as handed down could yet be improved, why not simply fill in the gaps yourself?

 

Alright, some may consider that kind of pragmatic attitude disrespectful to tradition. But like the Sanskrit poet Kālidāsa wrote, some 1600 years ago: पुराणमित्येव न साधु सर्वम् purāṇam ity eva na sādhu sarvam, 'Not everything is good simply because it is old.'

 

Michael 

[Iliketurtles]

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Yes.

 

OK, so what are the usual tenents of an art, and how does your position fit that criteria?

 

I haven't mentioned my school here to prevent trolling.

 

Well, everyone knows it is Mo Pai because of the language....the posts are always the same tone....

 

But anyway. Is it your school? Are you an initiate??

 

I study Longmen/Quanzhen methods, but it is not my school, and I am no initiate...Do you honestly understand what initiation actually means?

 

From an energetic/spiritual perspective I think you may have already demonstrated you don't but even at a practical level?

 

Just to add...Standing outside the gates of Harvard with  some an  dropout student notes and a video recording of a professor does not make you a person of the school...You understand this correct?

 

I empathize with your need to identify with something you feel passionate about...but I'm not sure I agree with you calling it your school

That's a thing that happens. Teachers die.  They take students, and they pass the torch.  That is how all this works for all arts.  We have video of our teacher giving instruction, and we have students that studied directly under him, and taught many of us directly.  You can keep on with your mental gymnastics though, if it makes you feel better about all of it.

 

Actually it is not so straightforward.....The person who inherited the Mo Pai Lineage....he is the one with the say on who's in and who's out...who is an initiate and who is not...So the torch was never passed to Jim, Kostas or any Westerner....and actually...there's a lot more to their story that is not public either....Much more

 

Does he recognize you as a student? Have you been initiated?  Keep in mind there are people you may not know about who have close ties to these individuals....and visit them in Indonesia

 

We do.

So you are being directly instructed by the teacher of the Current Mo Pai lineage then? If not, then by who exactly

 

I do not appreciate the hostility here.

 

You have taken my words and made them black and white....what I said was If you have no  living teacher it could be argued that you are  dabbling...you have not told me...so I await your response

 

I will have to disagree with you here.  In the common sense of the word spiritual the art I study is not.  It is purely a technology and absolutely nothing more.

 

You may disagree all you want, you are incorrect.....Have you considered the common use of the term is the issue, rather than the term its self

 

Are you aiming to break the samsaric cycle? If you are then it is spiritual....because thats what all real spiritual traditions are concerned with...the how and why are unimportant....the after death state was and is always the endgame

 

Most things which can be regarded as spiritual are nothing more than woo, but you are certainly free to disagree here.

 

I just did...though I agree many things are woo...there are equally many things that are not....

 

You can learn to light a fire with a bow tool, and no blessing is required.

 

Explain exactly what you are referencing when you say light a fire...awaken the LDT? 

 

This is the sort of woo I was talking about.  If magical thinking is your thing more power to you.  I prefer what I consider to be good evidence and results any day. 

 

Had you said this a few years ago to me, id totally agree with you...However, Ive had experiences via my own practices, especially in the last few months......you can be sure there is nothing magical about it....my own job is in experimental research (the same people you guys pay to answer your questions if you feel it will support your arguments), so I know how to verify something when I need to

 

I prefer to make my map of reality using what I consider the best evidence available to me,  that seems reasonable, down to earth and grounded. 

 

If you are really studying what you say you are, and going through an authentic neigong process...your definitions of grounded, down to earth and reasonable will all become very much malleable.....and I say that from a place of skepticism 

 

 

As I explained previously, I have not mentioned my school in hopes of not having to deal with trolling. 

 

Teachers die.  It is a thing that happens.  Teachers take students and pass the torch to them.  We can trace the lineage back directly.  We also have video recordings.   In regards to a living teacher, we do have a living teacher.

 

Your words sound like just because Pai Mei is dead, his teachings become invalid, and the next generation isn't qualified to understand what he taught.  

 

Go tell that to Beatrix Kiddo, when she slaps you with the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique.

 

I am not sure what more to tell you here, but it sure sounds like one of the worst cases of sour grapes I've ever heard of.
 

Anyway I would sincerely appreciate it if you would wrap this up, so the original topic can get back on track. 

 

Thanks!

Edited January 2, 2022 by Iliketurtles

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

 

As I explained previously, I have not mentioned my school in hopes of not having to deal with trolling. 

 

Teachers die.  It is a thing that happens.  Teachers take students and pass the torch to them.  We can trace the lineage back directly.  We also have video recordings.   In regards to a living teacher, we do have a living teacher.

 

Your words sound like just because Pai Mei is dead, his teachings become invalid, and the next generation isn't qualified to understand what he taught.  

 

Go tell that to Beatrix Kiddo, when she slaps you with the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique.

 

I am not sure what more to tell you here, but it sure sounds like one of the worst cases of sour grapes I've ever heard of.
 

Anyway I would sincerely appreciate it if you would wrap this up, so the original topic can get back on track. 

 

Thanks!

 

As I explained previously, I have not mentioned my school in hopes of not having to deal with trolling. 

Well for a start, nobody's trolling you....this a question about whether or not you have any claim to the Mo Pai Lineage....so far....evidence suggests you do not...however I am most open to you explaining how you do

 

Teachers take students and pass the torch to them.  We can trace the lineage back directly.  We also have video recordings.   In regards to a living teacher, we do have a living teacher.

 

Im not interested in Jim or Kostas or Johns video...two of them are dead...the other wants nothing to do with Mo Pai...so its really not that important.

 

However, you say you have a "living teacher" from the lineage....Alright then, Who is your teacher?

 

Your words sound like just because Pai Mei is dead, his teachings become invalid, and the next generation isn't qualified to understand what he taught. Go tell that to Beatrix Kiddo, when she slaps you with the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique.

 

Well no...they aren't Johns teachings...they are simply teachings that he was given from someone before him...however...he didn't transmit them in full to Jim or Kostas....not only did he not transmit them in full...they got comparatively little when considered in light of what was available

 

The living lineage is a different story...its not dead....and the current head as I understand it, is further along than what I've seen mentioned publicly...but I digress...such a matter is not a topic for public discourse

 

I am not sure what more to tell you here, but it sure sounds like one of the worst cases of sour grapes I've ever heard of.

 

Sour grapes? not at all....Qi emission and the likes is not something I am overly interested in...I have other things I gravitate towards...I would much rather focus my attention on spiritual development ( using the actual sense of the word)

 

So no sour grapes, but that sure is a nice attempt to reorient the discussion away from what I asked you about
 

Anyway I would sincerely appreciate it if you would wrap this up, so the original topic can get back on track. 

 

By all means...address my questions fully, without trying to frame it as If I harbour some unwarranted jealousy...and I will have nothing else to say...You've just made what seems like quite an unwarranted claim towards as school and an art...I am just trying to establish how warranted this claim is

[Iliketurtles]

6 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

As I explained previously, I have not mentioned my school in hopes of not having to deal with trolling. 

Well for a start, nobody's trolling you....this a question about whether or not you have any claim to the Mo Pai Lineage....so far....evidence suggests you do not...however I am most open to you explaining how you do

 

Teachers take students and pass the torch to them.  We can trace the lineage back directly.  We also have video recordings.   In regards to a living teacher, we do have a living teacher.

 

Im not interested in Jim or Kostas or Johns video...two of them are dead...the other wants nothing to do with Mo Pai...so its really not that important.

 

However, you say you have a "living teacher" from the lineage....Alright then, Who is your teacher?

 

Your words sound like just because Pai Mei is dead, his teachings become invalid, and the next generation isn't qualified to understand what he taught. Go tell that to Beatrix Kiddo, when she slaps you with the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique.

 

Well no...they aren't Johns teachings...they are simply teachings that he was given from someone before him...however...he didn't transmit them in full to Jim or Kostas....not only did he not transmit them in full...they got comparatively little when considered in light of what was available

 

The living lineage is a different story...its not dead....and the current head as I understand it, is further along than what I've seen mentioned publicly...but I digress...such a matter is not a topic for public discourse

 

I am not sure what more to tell you here, but it sure sounds like one of the worst cases of sour grapes I've ever heard of.

 

Sour grapes? not at all....Qi emission and the likes is not something I am overly interested in...I have other things I gravitate towards...I would much rather focus my attention on spiritual development ( using the actual sense of the word)

 

So no sour grapes, but that sure is a nice attempt to reorient the discussion away from what I asked you about
 

Anyway I would sincerely appreciate it if you would wrap this up, so the original topic can get back on track. 

 

By all means...address my questions fully, without trying to frame it as If I harbour some unwarranted jealousy...and I will have nothing else to say...You've just made what seems like quite an unwarranted claim towards as school and an art...I am just trying to establish how warranted this claim is

 

9 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

As I explained previously, I have not mentioned my school in hopes of not having to deal with trolling. 

Well for a start, nobody's trolling you....this a question about whether or not you have any claim to the Mo Pai Lineage....so far....evidence suggests you do not...however I am most open to you explaining how you do

 

Teachers take students and pass the torch to them.  We can trace the lineage back directly.  We also have video recordings.   In regards to a living teacher, we do have a living teacher.

 

Im not interested in Jim or Kostas or Johns video...two of them are dead...the other wants nothing to do with Mo Pai...so its really not that important.

 

However, you say you have a "living teacher" from the lineage....Alright then, Who is your teacher?

 

Your words sound like just because Pai Mei is dead, his teachings become invalid, and the next generation isn't qualified to understand what he taught. Go tell that to Beatrix Kiddo, when she slaps you with the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique.

 

Well no...they aren't Johns teachings...they are simply teachings that he was given from someone before him...however...he didn't transmit them in full to Jim or Kostas....not only did he not transmit them in full...they got comparatively little when considered in light of what was available

 

The living lineage is a different story...its not dead....and the current head as I understand it, is further along than what I've seen mentioned publicly...but I digress...such a matter is not a topic for public discourse

 

I am not sure what more to tell you here, but it sure sounds like one of the worst cases of sour grapes I've ever heard of.

 

Sour grapes? not at all....Qi emission and the likes is not something I am overly interested in...I have other things I gravitate towards...I would much rather focus my attention on spiritual development ( using the actual sense of the word)

 

So no sour grapes, but that sure is a nice attempt to reorient the discussion away from what I asked you about
 

Anyway I would sincerely appreciate it if you would wrap this up, so the original topic can get back on track. 

 

By all means...address my questions fully, without trying to frame it as If I harbour some unwarranted jealousy...and I will have nothing else to say...You've just made what seems like quite an unwarranted claim towards as school and an art...I am just trying to establish how warranted this claim is

 

I haven't discussed my school here, to prevent situations exactly like this one. 

 

I have no wish to discuss this further with you. 

 

Best wishes on your path. 

[ralis]

Mo Pai talk again? That discussion has been run into the ground here and always attracts more wannabes from who knows where.

[Shadow_self]

6 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

 

I haven't discussed my school here, to prevent situations exactly like this one. 

 

I have no wish to discuss this further with you. 

 

Best wishes on your path. 

 

You keep saying "my school" "my art" "my system"  "my teacher"

 

Yet Im asking you to explain how any of this is true.....

 

You see I know people who are quite close to the Mo Pai sect....the lineage do not appreciate your attempt to include yourself under their banner...in fact they find it quite insulting.

 

But even if you are doing what they do...lets clarify something

 

Filling the lower Dantien is not Mo Pai specific....many systems do it.

Compression of Qi is not Mo Pai specific, many systems do it

Mobilizing the Dantien (if you want to call it that) is not Mo Pai specific, many systems do it

 

So what makes you a practitioner of Mo Pai ( and not just generic neigong) , is acceptance into their school and initiation into their sect...nothing more...The fact that you don't understand the mechanics behind initiation is quite unfortunate...but @freeform explains what these things can look like in other lineages here....and I hope he does not mind me using quotes from his older posts just as a point of illustration 

 

Heres one such example

In fact in most lineages at a certain stage of getting accepted into the ‘inner door’ of the school, one is initiated into the lineage - and a ‘seed’ is ceremonially ‘stamped’ into the upper Dantien. With any old lineage there is always an immortal being at the head of it. By being aligned through initiation in this way, your cultivation as well as your daily life is to some extent subtly coloured by this attunement to this higher aspect of being.

 

And another quote

I’ve been fortunate to be part of an initiation which involves sitting with a Fu that is only revealed for the purpose of initiation. Despite it being many hundreds if not over a thousand years old - it has only ever been seen in this very controlled, reverent sort of way - and never copied by a non-initiate. And I can say that - even as a relative sceptic of this sort of thing (at least I was at the time) - the effect of it left me with no doubt of the power of this sort of stuff!

 

Now seeing as the Western Mo Pai handbook the Magus of Java makes reference to this explicitly...you probably already know this is also an aspect of Mo Pai...but incase you do not...lets explore

 

"Before he left, I went to his house every night for the following two months. One evening he gave me an ancient book containing the secrets of inner power all the way up to Level Seventy Two. He made me promise that I would not open the book and read it until I had finished with Level Three. And I went through a formal Taoist ceremony; Liao Sifu made a cham, a "fu" as we call it. He drew the charm on a piece of paper and I had to write down the following three promises on the same piece of paper, 

 

That if I finished with Level Four, 

1 I was not allowed to use this power for evil purposes. 

2. I was not allowed to make money with this power 

3. I would not demonstrate to anyone€ except my students. I signed the fu with a drop of my own blood and Liao Sifu burned lt on a pier. Then he mixed the ashes with another drop of my blood and made me drink it. It bound me, Kosta; I had to do exactly what I promised.

 

Ill leave it up to you to join the dots here...but suffice to say...if you think there is no esoteric/spiritual ceremonial aspects to the Mo Pai...you are not only mistaken. But misinformed

 

Between spirit communion, Keris work, and the above mentioned...its quite steeped in it actually

 

But yes...you don't need to discuss anything further....your statements, and subsequent lack of validation of them, really say all that is needed

 

4 hours ago, ralis said:

Mo Pai talk again? That discussion has been run into the ground here and always attracts more wannabes from who knows where.

 

As I mentioned...the lineage do not appreciate false claims of others stating they are aligned to them...

Edited January 2, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Iliketurtles]

2 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

You keep saying "my school" "my art" "my system"  "my teacher"

 

Yet Im asking you to explain how any of this is true.....

 

You see I know people who are quite close to the Mo Pai sect....the lineage do not appreciate your attempt to include yourself under their banner...in fact they find it quite insulting.

 

But even if you are doing what they do...lets clarify something

 

Filling the lower Dantien is not Mo Pai specific....many systems do it.

Compression of Qi is not Mo Pai specific, many systems do it

Mobilizing the Dantien (if you want to call it that) is not Mo Pai specific, many systems do it

 

So what makes you a practitioner of Mo Pai ( and not just generic neigong) , is acceptance into their school and initiation into their sect...nothing more...The fact that you don't understand the mechanics behind initiation is quite unfortunate...but @freeform explains what these things can look like in other lineages here....and I hope he does not mind me using quotes from his older posts just as a point of illustration 

 

Heres one such example

In fact in most lineages at a certain stage of getting accepted into the ‘inner door’ of the school, one is initiated into the lineage - and a ‘seed’ is ceremonially ‘stamped’ into the upper Dantien. With any old lineage there is always an immortal being at the head of it. By being aligned through initiation in this way, your cultivation as well as your daily life is to some extent subtly coloured by this attunement to this higher aspect of being.

 

And another quote

I’ve been fortunate to be part of an initiation which involves sitting with a Fu that is only revealed for the purpose of initiation. Despite it being many hundreds if not over a thousand years old - it has only ever been seen in this very controlled, reverent sort of way - and never copied by a non-initiate. And I can say that - even as a relative sceptic of this sort of thing (at least I was at the time) - the effect of it left me with no doubt of the power of this sort of stuff!

 

Now seeing as the Western Mo Pai handbook the Magus of Java makes reference to this explicitly...you probably already know this is also an aspect of Mo Pai...but incase you do not...lets explore

 

"Before he left, I went to his house every night for the following two months. One evening he gave me an ancient book containing the secrets of inner power all the way up to Level Seventy Two. He made me promise that I would not open the book and read it until I had finished with Level Three. And I went through a formal Taoist ceremony; Liao Sifu made a cham, a "fu" as we call it. He drew the charm on a piece of paper and I had to write down the following three promises on the same piece of paper, 

 

That if I finished with Level Four, 

1 I was not allowed to use this power for evil purposes. 

2. I was not allowed to make money with this power 

3. I would not demonstrate to anyone€ except my students. I signed the fu with a drop of my own blood and Liao Sifu burned lt on a pier. Then he mixed the ashes with another drop of my blood and made me drink it. It bound me, Kosta; I had to do exactly what I promised.

 

Ill leave it up to you to join the dots here...but suffice to say...if you think there is no esoteric/spiritual ceremonial aspects to the Mo Pai...you are not only mistaken. But misinformed

 

Between spirit communion, Keris work, and the above mentioned...its quite steeped in it actually

 

But yes...you don't need to discuss anything further....your statements, and subsequent lack of validation of them, really say all that is needed

 

 

As I mentioned...the lineage do not appreciate false claims of others stating they are aligned to them...

 

Please see my previous reply.

[Iliketurtles]

Shadow, 

 

Looks like someone created a new forum thedaobuns.com just for situations like these! 

 

Maybe I will see you there!

[Shadow_self]

On 02/01/2022 at 4:48 PM, Iliketurtles said:

 

 

I haven't discussed my school here, to prevent situations exactly like this one. 

 

I have no wish to discuss this further with you. 

 

Best wishes on your path. 

 

20 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

Shadow, 

 

Looks like someone created a new forum thedaobuns.com just for situations like these! 

 

Maybe I will see you there!

 

Please see your previous reply  

[Iliketurtles]

1 minute ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

Please see your previous reply  

 

Unfortunately this is not the correct environment to have the discussion you are wanting to have. 

 

I am waiting to get my account set up on thedaobuns but haven't heard back from the forum creator. 

 

Like I said maybe I will see you there. 

 

Love, peace and chicken grease.

[old3bob]

I'd say most and especially powerful forms of knowledge have  built in inductive reactance factors for protection,  an inductive reactance that will kick ass if or when such knowledge is misused and in that sense incomplete per purpose.  (thus it's not wise to bite off more than we can properly chew) 

[Iliketurtles]

On 1/3/2022 at 5:06 PM, old3bob said:

I'd say most and especially powerful forms of knowledge have  built in inductive reactance factors for protection,  an inductive reactance that will kick ass if or when such knowledge is misused and in that sense incomplete per purpose.  (thus it's not wise to bite off more than we can properly chew) 

 

I think a lot of the time people love to invent all kinds of ideas on why something is impossible and can't work as justifications and rationalizations for their choices. 

 

e.g. Those grapes were probably sour anyway. 

 

 

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

I think a lot of the time people love to invent all kinds of ideas on why something is impossible and can't work as justifications and rationalizations for their choices. 

 

e.g. Those grapes were probably sour anyway. 

 

 

Are you trying to refute the very well known and long proven law of electrical inductive reactance being used as an analogy with it having some parallels in other forms of power and knowledge? 

[Iliketurtles]

34 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

Are you trying to refute the very well known and long proven law of electrical inductive reactance being used as an analogy with it having some parallels in other forms of power and knowledge? 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Iliketurtles

[Cleansox]

4 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

e.g. Those grapes were probably sour anyway. 

 

🦊