Most of the esoteric knowledge out there is incomplete on purpose

[Seeking]

Have you noticed this? Maybe its just the Chinese way of disinfo to weed out the real from the fake by who sees through the trick and who falls, hook line and sink. The way I see it is like this:

 

Intuitively I sense that a lot of practices/forms that are in the public domain are either obviously watered down, incomplete or just straight up forgeries of the real deal. Its hard to express linguistically because intuition is preverbal but on an energetic level its like this:

 

There is a "field" shall we say, an energetic blueprint of wholeness that is around certain forms. One very popular form on here has it present and correct but only at the foundational/middle level as there are higher aspects of it that are obviously not released to the public yet. Its like I can feel the "shape" of the form, its non physical point of origin and then there is whats being taught and you can compare and contrast the sensations, if you get what I'm saying? Like a glass half filled with negative space in the rest. Whats that old saying? "If a man is thirsty give him half a cup. If he truly thirsts he will ask for more". Like I said, its cultural and naturally ingrained in the Eastern belief system and seems obvious to me.

 

I do get the feeling that during the Qigong boom of the 70s lots of half assed info was spread that was then further mangled in translation with compounded errors added on by "Masters" in the West who pay obesience to Oriental gentlemen that aren't actually equipped to sweep the temple steps, let alone guide anyone else. Simply put they're faking it to people who can't tell the difference anyway.

 

Its super common in the magick field for those of you who know as Grimoires are parallel to a form and people hold them close to their chest. Workings that are shared are often flipped, edited or distorted to keep the originator in a place of power or just to plain through the followers off course and waste their time in pointless busy work. The parallel in the energy fields is quite evident and I'm wondering if anyone else has spotted it?

 

Out of respect I won't be naming names as to what I see as fraudulent as that really doesn't serve any purpose as its up to the practitioner to be discerning and heed that inner wisdom. Sometimes its like this:

 

 

Where the whole practice is correct but taught "off script" so that the pieces are in the incorrect order and there is not optimal correlation with the energy field of the form in its optimal state. Others are more like:

 

 

In that what you have will never fit, no matter what you try. Most people are just happy enough to have some pieces to play with due to the distraction and busy work it brings even if cumulatively they are running on an energetic treadmill as a total waste of their effort.

 

Intuition is preverbal but hopefully you get my imagery and intent. There are also loads of other factors like cultural cues which are self evident and felt like they never needed to be expressed when mouth to ear teachings were written down only to have them literally translated centuries later and make absolutely no sense. Yet people dare not question "the old ways" because they lack the discernment to see what I've outlined.

 

Do you agree or disagree? Or is my attitude of nonchalant bravado showing again?

[freeform]

In the 70’s and 80’s when lots of qigong ‘masters’ came to the west many people that were interested in this stuff felt like it was a golden opportunity…

 

The reality is that qigong and the internal arts are like any field of human endeavour - the vast majority are not good at all… a minority are mediocre and a tiny sliver are true masters of their art.

 

The people that came to the west were certainly not the best. The best had very good reputations, had their disciples and their schools to worry about… if the political situation made it difficult they would just move to the many other Chinese communities in other Asian countries next door.

 

The ones that came to the west were mediocre at best and complete charlatans at worst.
 

Often they were outcasts from genuine traditions with a bad reputation in Asia. But when they escaped that reputation by coming to the west, they found a thirst for knowledge and a lack of insight and distinctions - so they could simply teach whatever they wanted and it would sell.

 

As a clue - if a teacher can’t name their teachers… or they’re reportedly some hermit with a cloud based name… or there’s some other mystical backstory - then it’s a big red flag suggesting that there’s something suspect in their history. Either they were kicked out, were never allowed to teach or just used books and imagination to create their systems.

 

This is what I’ve been told many times by some of the teachers that stayed…

 

Now we have a generation of people that learned from these ‘masters’ teaching others - and the results are horrific.

 

Theres also a trend of going to China to get all the ‘authentic’ pictures taken - and study at one of the ‘centres of cultural heritage’ (like Wudang) that CCP uses as a means of soft power… The photos, outfits and time spent in China legitimises their teachings… which are basically just choreography and callisthenics.

 

Honestly the situation is quite disheartening.

 

On the other hand, we are starting to get genuine teachers with genuine accomplishments teaching in the West too.

Even people living in Asia are starting to turn in this direction for genuine teachings.

 

Like the ‘Shaolin “Master”’ Shi Heng Yi - who can often be seen in the videos of the basic Martial Man camps. Where it’s clear that he has absolutely no internal skill - yet he’s teaching “authentic” Xi Sui Jing (the very secret, and the most advanced ‘marrow washing’ method within the Shaolin internal arts). He does look the part though, doesn’t he!

 

Whats happening in Asia nowadays is interesting too. There are quite a few well known teachers with genuine Qi ability, and genuine internal skill… but zero spiritual development and no ethics. They charge ridiculous prices, do fake demonstrations, teach completely fake methods - all the while collecting the money which they spend on booze and prostitutes… (seems to be a bit of a trend in the power-focused Neigong masters in Asia).

 

A prime example where some attainment can be worse than no attainment at all. Though I guess that’s the case if spiritual growth is of prime importance or not.

A very weird world  

 

Looking forward to see how things develop over the years.

[Vajra Fist]

3 hours ago, Seeking said:

Intuitively I sense that a lot of practices/forms that are in the public domain are either obviously watered down, incomplete or just straight up forgeries of the real deal.

 

I came to realise pretty much the same thing quite recently. In the majority of wisdom traditions, you won't get the full system online. The only way is through years of practice and direct instruction from a qualified teacher, in person. Then you have the problem of telling which teacher has real attainment or not.

 

Conversely, I've come to realise that the practice that is more powerful than any esoteric energy practice is your basic anapanasati. Just sitting and following the breath for a couple of hours, is more likely to be genuinely transformative than spending that time waving your arms around or doing complicated breathing patterns. 

 

Of course, you still need a retreat setting at times and direct feedback from a teacher, but in terms of the heart of the method being publicly available, the only place you see that is in theravada and some schools of zen.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Vajra Fist

[Seeking]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

The reality is that qigong and the internal arts are like any field of human endeavour - the vast majority are not good at all… a minority are mediocre and a tiny sliver are true masters of their art.

 

This should be printed out and hung up over the entrance to the world. Such a simple truth that can be applied to so many fields.

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

The people that came to the west were certainly not the best. The best had very good reputations, had their disciples and their schools to worry about… if the political situation made it difficult they would just move to the many other Chinese communities in other Asian countries next door.

 

The ones that came to the west were mediocre at best and complete charlatans at worst.
 

Often they were outcasts from genuine traditions with a bad reputation in Asia. But when they escaped that reputation by coming to the west, they found a thirst for knowledge and a lack of insight and distinctions - so they could simply teach whatever they wanted and it would sell.

 

As a clue - if a teacher can’t name their teachers… or they’re reportedly some hermit with a cloud based name… or there’s some other mystical backstory - then it’s a big red flag suggesting that there’s something suspect in their history. Either they were kicked out, were never allowed to teach or just used books and imagination to create their systems.

 

This is what I’ve been told many times by some of the teachers that stayed…

 

Now we have a generation of people that learned from these ‘masters’ teaching others - and the results are horrific.

 

Theres also a trend of going to China to get all the ‘authentic’ pictures taken - and study at one of the ‘centres of cultural heritage’ (like Wudang) that CCP uses as a means of soft power… The photos, outfits and time spent in China legitimises their teachings… which are basically just choreography and callisthenics.

 

Honestly the situation is quite disheartening.

 

Yes, exactly. Its the next generation that compounds the previous ones errors and the problems this can cause. The partially sighted leading the blind is worse than the blind by themselves as at least that way they'd have a sense of caution. In another thread I mentioned the top draw don't leave home because they have no need to and what was shipped out was often thrown out or no good in the first place as you said. Couldn't match the standard so off they went because they'll buy anything in the West with no questions asked. 

 

It will be interesting to see how this develops now the world is "flat" thanks to the net as the real will have to rise, even if by accident.

 

6 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I came to realise pretty much the same a few years back. In the majority of wisdom traditions, you won't get the full system online. The only way is through years of practice and direct instruction from a qualified teacher. Then you have the problem of telling which teacher has real attainment or not.

 

Yes, it definitely seems like there are clear cut steps on this path as many people see the same things, time and again. Others obviously must see them too but choose not to pay attention as that would mean having to admit the error of their ways and flushing all of the investment in their practice. Their egos often can't take this. Nor will they brook any discussion on the topic. Quite sad really.

 

7 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Conversely, I've come to realise that the practice that is more powerful than any esoteric energy practice is your basic anapanasati. Just sitting and following the breath for a couple of hours, is more likely to be genuinely transformative than spending that time waving your arms around or doing complicated breathing patterns. 

 

Of course, you still need a retreat setting at times and direct feedback from a teacher, but in terms of the heart of the method being publicly available, the only place you see that is in theravada and some schools of zen.

 

100%. It is simple, effective, direct and thus wholly ignored by people who need something with a bit more drama and cool points. Can really Instagram sitting still and breathing, can you? Breath + awareness is really the key, the fundamental that underpins all and its often only mentioned in passing when it comes to standing on your head whilst making figure 8 movements with your legs as you breathe in and out like an accordion full of amphetamines.

 

 

I noticed this same hollow inauthenticity with Yoga as that is mostly a scam, same with most forms of meditation and most recently Qigong got my attention and, what do you know, more of the same. I can definitely say that my time served in just observing the sensation of breath, expanding to full body awareness then turning it around to witness the witness itself is what fueled the intuition I was speaking of. Its literally the basics and yet the most complex at the same time as it embraces everything by doing nothing yet by doing nothing all is done. Funny how that works.

 

Back to the topic though. I suppose the quest for a full system and one who can teach it is part of the whole adventure really. I definitely get the feeling they aren't online and selling any courses or CDs though. There are a couple for sure who have genuine potent systems, a wealth of experience and insight but they, for whatever reason, practice that privately and what they teach publicly is either a ) totally different/from a public lineage they were allowed to disclose or b ) real but very heavily diluted and skewed toward the yin concepts and very much downplaying the yang and true power of the form.

 

Funny thing is Bruce Lee was apparently exactly the same. He artfully misdirected his students and never taught them what he'd actually learned himself. Sure he gave them something that was far beyond what anyone else was offering but it wasn't what made him, him. And all this time later things haven't changed. Well apart from the fact that none of these "Masters" are Bruce in any way shape or form as they're selling an image with nothing behind it as he actually put the work in and learned it direct and in the flesh.

 

Thing I don't get (well, I do - ego investment) is how people who follow and practice these methods don't even have the insight to think "Wait a minute I've been doing this for 2 decades and I'm pretty much exactly the same as I was when I started". Maybe thats why they avoid the simple breath awareness aspect as that as a barometer alone would make the lack of progress self evident.

 

So odd.

[freeform]

On 28/12/2021 at 7:30 PM, Vajra Fist said:

Conversely, I've come to realise that the practice that is more powerful than any esoteric energy practice is your basic anapanasati.

I would say it’s all about the right practice at the right time. There is no holy grail method. It can be tempting to see things this way when a practice is doing so much for you - but the reality is that at some point you’ll outgrow it too…

[helpfuldemon]

Most esoteric schools are full of rituals and methods meant to create a strong will and bring balance and grace to your thinking and action.  You can do these things with simple meditation and exercise of some kind.

 

As far as philosophy, that is easy.  All you need is the Tree of Life.  People choose a goal:  kindness or power, and refine their thinking and action in line with these ideals.  The two extremes of action are to do anything you choose in the name of power or kindness, or do nothing in fear of making error.  From nothing, you choose to do something, and you work your way into action.  You choose either power or kindness to be your motive and either secure strength or make certain that what you are doing is kind.  

 

A lot of esoteric method is superstition.

 

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

A lot of esoteric method is superstition.

Thats a good point - because it’s true.

 

The benefits of established traditions is that they offer collected wisdom from hundreds of achieved masters.

 

But on the flip side, they can easily get embroiled in superstitions and cultural ephemera that are completely irrelevant to genuine cultivation.

 

The key is to find what I call a living tradition.
 

To me this simply means that there’s a live connection to source. The tradition is essentially an access-point to this unbroken line that leads to source.

 

Actual methods and specific practices must all fall in line with that connection - otherwise the connection breaks and all you have is a bunch of dogmatic theories instead of direct, live insight into the reality of spiritual cultivation.

 

In my experience a living tradition is often a little rough around the edges in terms of the ‘cultural’ trimmings… no one wears robes and hats and carries around horse hair whips… there’s little in terms of topknots and tea ceremonies in ornate tea houses.

 

It’s usually in amongst normal life - dogs chasing chickens… laundry flapping in the wind… tracksuits rather than silk pyjamas, steaming stock pots and deep grooves worn into stone floors where practice takes place.

 

Its true that some teachers are fond of the old cultural stuff - but it’s generally done in an irreverent way… not placing any undue importance on objects and aesthetics.

 

One very advanced teacher I trained briefly with was a big fan of cowboys - and all the outfits and stuff that went with it. But there was never any delusions that wearing a hat will make him a real cowboy.

 

Superstitious thinking is strongly discouraged in genuine schools. It’s direct experience and creating the conditions for direct insight to arise that is valued more than anything else.

Scriptures and canonical texts are used as supplements to direct experience - never as the source for understanding. Reading a text should always be a case of getting a string of ‘AHA!’ moments that help to give context to one’s own inner experience - NOT something that you must intellectually decode the meaning of to discover some secret method (these texts do not contain methods, even when it sounds like it).

 

Anyway - this ramble is all about how superstition is also very much the enemy of any genuine tradition  

 

Just because these arts are mysterious and defy commonly accepted principles of reality does not mean that superstitious thinking goes!

Edited December 30, 2021 by freeform

[helpfuldemon]

I think superstition comes into a school because a student encounters something miraculous, and imagination takes hold.  There is something to be said about the practice of magic, but in the end, it is mental illness.  

 

The world is set up so that the beautiful can get what they desire.  You don't need spellcraft and philosophy to muster the courage to go after what you want, you simply walk up to it and ask for it.  When it comes to enlightenment, there is no magic trick; logic and reason will bring it to you.  

[freeform]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

When it comes to enlightenment, there is no magic trick; logic and reason will bring it to you.  

While I agree that there’s no magic trick - logic and reason are no better - as alone, they will only ever lead you to a deluded sense of enlightenment.

Edited December 30, 2021 by freeform

[dwai]

On 12/28/2021 at 12:24 PM, freeform said:

Theres also a trend of going to China to get all the ‘authentic’ pictures taken - and study at one of the ‘centres of cultural heritage’ (like Wudang) that CCP uses as a means of soft power… The photos, outfits and time spent in China legitimises their teachings… which are basically just choreography and callisthenics

The converse is also true. At one time, the head of the Chinese Taiji Association came (secretly) to the US to train with a teacher who doesn’t share his lineage/teachers names.  Just because it is in China doesn’t mean much anymore. The CCP seems to have usurped the entire narrative and planted their own stooges (like they did with Shaolin). 

[doc benway]

There is also the phenomenon of "self-secret."

An entire method or system can be freely available to all but not everyone will get it.

For millenia, the dzogchen teachings of Tibetan Buddhism and Bon were kept highly secret.

There was a time when one master would transmit the teachings to no more than one qualified disciple in each generation, at least that is the history that is handed down.

It was the piece that was left out, as referred to in the OP.

After the Chinese invasion of Tibet, it was decided to open up the dzogchen teachings for fear of losing them permanently.

Now the integrity of the teachings is left in the care of the protector deities and their inherent "self-secret" nature.

[old3bob]

On 12/28/2021 at 8:01 AM, Seeking said:

Have you noticed this? Maybe its just the Chinese way of disinfo to weed out the real from the fake by who sees through the trick and who falls, hook line and sink. The way I see it is like this:

 

Intuitively I sense that a lot of practices/forms that are in the public domain are either obviously watered down, incomplete or just straight up forgeries of the real deal. Its hard to express linguistically because intuition is preverbal but on an energetic level its like this:

 

There is a "field" shall we say, an energetic blueprint of wholeness that is around certain forms. One very popular form on here has it present and correct but only at the foundational/middle level as there are higher aspects of it that are obviously not released to the public yet. Its like I can feel the "shape" of the form, its non physical point of origin and then there is whats being taught and you can compare and contrast the sensations, if you get what I'm saying? Like a glass half filled with negative space in the rest. Whats that old saying? "If a man is thirsty give him half a cup. If he truly thirsts he will ask for more". Like I said, its cultural and naturally ingrained in the Eastern belief system and seems obvious to me.

 

I do get the feeling that during the Qigong boom of the 70s lots of half assed info was spread that was then further mangled in translation with compounded errors added on by "Masters" in the West who pay obesience to Oriental gentlemen that aren't actually equipped to sweep the temple steps, let alone guide anyone else. Simply put they're faking it to people who can't tell the difference anyway.

 

Its super common in the magick field for those of you who know as Grimoires are parallel to a form and people hold them close to their chest. Workings that are shared are often flipped, edited or distorted to keep the originator in a place of power or just to plain through the followers off course and waste their time in pointless busy work. The parallel in the energy fields is quite evident and I'm wondering if anyone else has spotted it?

 

Out of respect I won't be naming names as to what I see as fraudulent as that really doesn't serve any purpose as its up to the practitioner to be discerning and heed that inner wisdom. Sometimes its like this:

 

 

Where the whole practice is correct but taught "off script" so that the pieces are in the incorrect order and there is not optimal correlation with the energy field of the form in its optimal state. Others are more like:

 

 

In that what you have will never fit, no matter what you try. Most people are just happy enough to have some pieces to play with due to the distraction and busy work it brings even if cumulatively they are running on an energetic treadmill as a total waste of their effort.

 

Intuition is preverbal but hopefully you get my imagery and intent. There are also loads of other factors like cultural cues which are self evident and felt like they never needed to be expressed when mouth to ear teachings were written down only to have them literally translated centuries later and make absolutely no sense. Yet people dare not question "the old ways" because they lack the discernment to see what I've outlined.

 

Do you agree or disagree? Or is my attitude of nonchalant bravado showing again?

 

reminds me of the Kundalini yoga teachers popping up in every shopping mall or yoga studio across the US..  When there is really only a very tiny number of teachers that are fully qualified to teach it after a student has advanced very far, along with them having  proven a rock solid spiritual foundation within themselves.  Of course I'm no expert at all on the subject but was fortunate enough to be given some key insights on kundalini practice going right and it going bad...which can be dangerous in several ways! 

Edited December 30, 2021 by old3bob

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Just because it is in China doesn’t mean much anymore.

Yeah totally agree - that was the point I was making - (less succinctly  )

 

In fact I generally recommend people that ask to stay away from China if spiritual cultivation is one’s primary aim.

[daojones]

Well by definition esoteric knowledge is hidden, so what fun would it be to have it all out in the open!

False trails and misinformation in esoteric texts is common in esoteric traditions. One review of a book stated how the author informs the reader that he intentionally put in pieces of wrong information, and that those who know the truth will recognize it.

[dwai]

3 hours ago, steve said:

There is also the phenomenon of "self-secret."

An entire method or system can be freely available to all but not everyone will get it.

For millenia, the dzogchen teachings of Tibetan Buddhism and Bon were kept highly secret.

There was a time when one master would transmit the teachings to no more than one qualified disciple in each generation, at least that is the history that is handed down.

It was the piece that was left out, as referred to in the OP.

After the Chinese invasion of Tibet, it was decided to open up the dzogchen teachings for fear of losing them permanently.

Now the integrity of the teachings is left in the care of the protector deities and their inherent "self-secret" nature.

That is the beauty of a genuine system. This leads me to a somewhat long-winded reverie, as follows.

 

A spiritual mentor of mine once made a very cryptic statement --

 

"A teacher shares the same knowledge with two separate students. In one case it is valid and true, while in other is not."

 

It has to do with the ability of a student to understand and assimilate said knowledge. If the student is not ready, no amount of transmissions or knowledge dissemination will be of any use.

 

Similarly, when a student is ready, they can grasp the truth/knowledge hidden in a haystack of information. That which allows a student to do so is called "subtle intelligence". It is different from the "gross intelligence" that is typically associated with IQ tests, etc. 

 

In the Hindu traditions, it is called "adhikara bheda". Adhikara literally means qualification, and bheda means distinction. So a good teacher will only share the exact amount of knowledge/information that is required for a student's level of development. 

 

Towards that, my mentor said, "Two teachers can share the same knowledge, but in one case it is true and in another, it is not."

 

There are also qualifications of teachers. Just because someone is an X, Y, or Z person's student doesn't automatically qualify them to teach certain things. Just because they have learned something, doesn't qualify them to teach/transmit the knowledge. It requires sitting with the knowledge/marinating in it for a long enough time, that every word uttered, every look cast by the practitioner oozes this knowledge. Then, even teaching becomes an act of grace. But this is at an extremely high level. For e.g., Ramana Maharishi - whose mere glance could transcend the right seeker to the final realization.

 

Then there are combinations of qualified teachers with unqualified students, and unqualified teachers and qualified students. Strange is the world, that we can see all sorts of such permutations and combinations.

 

A qualified teacher cannot uplift an unqualified student unless the teacher has exceptional spiritual power. 

An unqualified teacher may be able to uplift a qualified student if the student has sufficient karmic fruits in their "karma bank". 

[Iliketurtles]

“Those who know don’t talk.

Those who talk don’t know."

 

There are several books written about the art I study available on amazon. They were written by charlatans which contain nothing but disinformation. 

 

There are tons of people on Facebook who put together fake practice guide PDFs and label it as instruction for our school.

 

One of the challenges I find is that new students eagerly absorb this disinformation and accept it as true,  but later are unwilling to admit that they got duped. 

 

It seems to be a weird quirk of the human psyche, we must defend at all costs what we learned as true, even the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

Learning things is easy, but admitting you learned false information and accepted it as true is so difficult it might as well be impossible for most people. 

 

For every person that knows what they are talking about, there are a million who do not.

 

These million voices are all screaming much louder than the one that has a clue. 

 

It is impossible to transmit accurate information in such an environment, it is like trying to speak softly in front of a waterfall.

 

Another problem is that for whatever reason the majority of people attracted to things of this nature are not really firing on all cylinders, they lack the faculties to discern reality from fantasy and as such love to collect everything with no regard to it's legitimacy, and they also love to play the role of a teacher and re-transmit all the garbage they have collected with their own unique "eclectic" spin on it.

You wind up with something like a game of telephone or Chinese whispers like this:

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Iliketurtles

[freeform]

32 minutes ago, dwai said:

Just because someone is an X, Y, or Z person's student doesn't automatically qualify them to teach certain things. Just because they have learned something, doesn't qualify them to teach/transmit the knowledge. It requires sitting with the knowledge/marinating in it for a long enough time

More than anything it requires the teacher's explicit permission and blessing to teach each level of practice or body of work within the tradition. 

[Iliketurtles]

16 hours ago, freeform said:

More than anything it requires the teacher's explicit permission and blessing to teach each level of practice or body of work within the tradition. 

 

If my teacher taught me to make fire with a bow tool, tinder and kindling and he specifically told me I was not to teach other people this skill without his permission, even if I did so it wouldn't make the technology of the practice any less effective. 

 

For practices like this that are more of a technology, and less of a spiritual practice it either works as described or it doesn't.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Iliketurtles

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Iliketurtles said:

it wouldn't make the technology of the practice any less effective. 

The issue is that you may think that the method is about lighting a fire, while there’s a deeper reason that you haven’t received yet - and so have yet to master the art to a proficient enough level to teach. You don’t know what you don’t know.

 

If you haven’t been allowed to teach something you should not be teaching it. Either it’s for the sake of your own development, the development of your students, or the preservation of the art itself. 

Some teachers of course don’t allow it for the sake of their own authority - in which case they’re probably not the right person to be teaching a spiritual art in the first place.

[daojones]

@freeform sounds like you're trying to get others to drink the same kool aid as you. Trying to break the fire analogy down like that was an ineffective form of argumentation. 

People do what they do, with permission or without...that's kind of how were in the situation were in with regards to so many traditions being fractured and the truth being unknown. Those who are meant to know, will know. Teachers are only human, estoric teachings don't have to come from a human.

[Iliketurtles]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

The issue is that you may think that the method is about lighting a fire, while there’s a deeper reason that you haven’t received yet - and so have yet to master the art to a proficient enough level to teach. You don’t know what you don’t know.

 

If you haven’t been allowed to teach something you should not be teaching it. Either it’s for the sake of your own development, the development of your students, or the preservation of the art itself. 

Some teachers of course don’t allow it for the sake of their own authority - in which case they’re probably not the right person to be teaching a spiritual art in the first place.

 

I am sure there are a lot of spiritual systems that require transmission.

 

The system I study however is purely a technology, and perhaps even anti-spiritual at least as far as the word spiritual is commonly used nowadays. 

 

For such systems either it works as described, produces results, or it doesn't.

 

For example the bow tool example earlier, anyone can learn to make a fire via friction, it just takes dedication, and a lot of elbow grease.  

 

You don't need a spiritual transmission because  this is just a technology and it isn't spiritual. 

 

I personally prefer systems that have decoupled the "woo" factor, and focus purely on technology.  

 

No need to philosophize and study hexagrams, bones, visualize  and chant mantras.

 

Just do the work, and realize the results. 

 

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

[dwai]

42 minutes ago, freeform said:

More than anything it requires the teacher's explicit permission and blessing to teach each level of practice or body of work within the tradition. 

It works that way if there is such a requirement in the particular tradition. Some paths (to disambiguate from tradition) only take us to a certain point. At that point, the seeker might have "Got" the knowledge. But there still might be the requirement to properly marinate in it. Beyond that point, is a matter of wisdom/judgment. 

Speaking from experience, even if you give a student the "keys" to the kingdom, if they are not ready for it, they will throw it away and look to open other doors which appear "locked". On the other hand, if there are those who need just a few gentle nudges and they do all the hard work, ask the right questions, and "get" it. 

[Nungali]

^  Hmmmm ..... that video up there looks like my past martial arts teachers all lined up .

 

One dynamic / skill that I have had to develop in studying martial arts and  the systems of spirituality / magick  is a type of 'reverse engineering '  .... getting back to that first guy in the line . It involves a VERY wide range of studies , background, comparisons  and a gradual build up of knowledge until you have some type of data base to navigate by .

 

This results in insights that can provide keys to the more obscure sections .  These insights  are often  keys to interpretations .

 

Spoiler

2 examples ;   Original 'Master'   had one opponent that he could never defeat ( a shipwrecked Chinese 'pirate' /  become  bandit ) because of this , he was he was 'taken into the fold' , given some respectability and Master learnt special techniques from him . In other sources we find that the 'bandit' had a style of fighting that involved receiving attacks  by turning and spinning , thus getting in close and in unusual positions  to his advantage . Also he fought on one leg a lot  .   ? ? ?   ( further research reveals some of his techniques may have been very useful aboard ship - very advantageous for a pirate ! ) .  In the case of Matsamura being unable to defeat Chinto ( the 'pirate' ), it is recorded that the fight went into a cave and Chinto had been driven to the back of the cave where he took up a position where it narrowed and he was a bit higher up on rocks . More examination of this reveals it can be a good technique for fighting on stairs  ( also advantageous on ship ) .

 

Coming down several generations and tracking techniques  and  training techniques  ( eg .  Nabe  > Soken ,   Nabe would make the young Soken train and fight him, standing on one leg on a log floating in a pond ) we see great stress placed on this . Later again (Soken > Nishihira )  we see film (private) of a lot of Nishihira technique which, can be missed  without careful observance , where we can see nearly every move, subtly , has this moment of 'one leg stability' from which nearly everything is launched ... and then the other leg ( not all the time , but mostly ) comes down and is planted  as the technique is delivered .

 

Then there is the overall common denominator  ; its a white crane system ( 'Okinawan Crane , that is )   so if any confusion arises , I go back to basics  and look for a white crane solution , I have found defensive and attack moves  usually relate to the crane's wings, neck, beak, legs and claws (toes) .  I had trouble with one form , until I realised if I just treat it as crane using one wing instead of both , it all fits into place - I cal it 'a half crane ' .

 

Then of course, there is getting to know your teacher , what he is like and subject to , what he is likely to have transferred  accurately or mistakenly  ... to me THAT has been hugely important and that alone took about 10 years .  Also travelling around and talking to as many as I could that trained with original teachers.... and understanding their 'filters' .  Also there was 'base style' ( what they taught the Americans on the US bases ) and 'home style' what they taught others ( also including Americans that they had made friends with - ie, taken into the fold / 'family'  - I have noted two very different systems here ! )

 

So now I have 'reverse engineered' a LOT if it and got down to some basics , even too the extent I have shown and explained stuff to the 'seniors' that run our group nationally .  They seem mystified as to how I could know this stuff . I even gt accused of having some other special secret teacher that they did not know about        ..... how else could one know this stuff !    

 

Anyway , you should see some of the ideas and ways of doing things now !  ( without this knowledge ) ...... some  'karate'   and its explanations  is even more funny than what it is done in that video !   I ran into this one recently , a guy was asking about a 'mystical move ' in one pattern  ( which is supposedly a basic 'founding' one - that many others derive from ) - it starts with both hands rising above the head , palms out , fingertips joined, the arms making an upright triangle .  then one arm drops and turns and is pulled back, the other sorta folds over it . Then you reverse that to the other side, then there is a finger strike motion .

 

The question was , what does this mystical triangle shape and magical hand movement mean ?  Ohhh they went on and on about the triangle shape and what t might mean ... no seemed to wonder why a little magical body mudra was going on before one would do a martial arts training form ?         Eventually I got asked why I was laughing  " Come on you guys, stop muckin around and show the new guy ( the original  questioner ) some type of application .  They didnt know it ! ... or would not say anything ( ? whats that about ? ) . So I gets one of em , I just stand there and say "Punch me in the head ."  He goes , " Which hand, a left or a right ? "

 

"AHA! "   Well, thats it, isnt it ? Standing close, squared off like this ... how would I know !  Thats up to you  ..... "  So he throws a right , both my arms whip up in the 'triangle'  and the punch is deflected . " I dont know if its a right or a left, this way, I am covered both sides . " But still nothing happens , me ( still with arms up in triangle ) , "Well , both my arms are up exposing my ribs , you have one arm drawn back that you didnt punch with ... what are you going to do ? "

 

" Oh ... "  he punches that other arm into my ribs  ( and this is a 'black belt instructor ' !   He didnt think of that !    )  - I drop my arm that is up, on that side , striking the point of my elbow into the back of his fist at the lung/heart area , teh as I reverse my hand positions that makes his arm fold over, he bends forward and he he has a type of 'arm bar' on, now, as he is close and bent over the point below his  ear  at the back of his jawbone is right in line with my fingers for a strike, so i do that  (stopping in time , of course ) .

 

OR  ...

 

you could just imagine  that your arm movements are 'controlling the whole universe and bringing ll into your control within a triangle that you hold in your hands  !       ..... ceptin if someone  goes to punch you in the head , and you dont know what to do , you might drop it ! 

 

Its extra weird as many forms start like this .

 

The other classic blunder is in Kusanku , where one assumes a very low position like a sprinter about to take off from starting blocks .  man ! The applications I have seen that this is supposed to represent !   'Ninja hiding in long grass '      

 

All of a sudden , in a fighting form , you decide to practice being a ninja and hiding in long grass      

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Nungali

[natural]

Oh my, I may be a ninja known for hiding in grass or with it anyway lol.

[old3bob]

knowledge in or of the mind are  tools,  and not the essential secret hidden in plain sight right under all our noses...