Describe what you think enlightenment is and what you would realize should you have it

[helpfuldemon]

You hear a lot of talk about enlightenment and how difficult it is to reach it/teach it.  It seems to me that some people have no idea what it is, while others have varying ideas of what it could be.  I'm asking the Bums to describe it, and what you would know when you attain it.

[helpfuldemon]

I see enlightenment as a constant process of revelation, and what one realizes is not always identical to another person's revelation.  I think there is a lot of different truth, it depends upon experience and what suits an individual's tastes.  I think there is ultimate truth that goes out in many directions, like the symbol for Chaos.

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I see enlightenment as a constant process of revelation, and what one realizes is not always identical to another person's revelation.  I think there is a lot of different truth, it depends upon experience and what suits an individual's tastes.  I think there is ultimate truth that goes out in many directions, like the symbol for Chaos.

 

When people have enlightening experiences, the nature and quality of their experience is determined by the obstacle(s) being released. It is not so much that the revelation, or the “endpoint,” differs from one to another. It is the unique way in which each of us is separated from Enlightenment that determines the revelation, the experience of awakening. 

[helpfuldemon]

Thats like saying that enlightenment is one thing, and the same for each.  I don't agree, I think that we each have different things to learn and that in the end, we may come to different conclusions.

[Spaceofawareness]

I have heard enlightenment described as “cessation”. It is described as the seeing through of maya or illusion. The illusion being this world and it’s suffering.

 

From a more Vedic context, it is when one realises they are Brahman, their sense of individuality drops away and world of luminosity and emptiness remain. 

 

Some describe all beings as already being enlightened, yet their enlightenment is hidden or covered by the projecting and veiling power of this illusory existence.

 

in all contexts, there is a seeing through the illusory world of suffering, the world is seen through, as is the construct of the self.

 

Thats my very limited grasp of this.

 

But in order to know where you are going, you need to know roughly what it is, or you may not realise when you find it.

 

you need an ontology to put it in context.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Spaceofawareness

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

Thats like saying that enlightenment is one thing, and the same for each.  

 

I do not intend to say it is the same for all. It is more subtle than that.

 

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

I don't agree, I think that we each have different things to learn and that in the end, we may come to different conclusions.

 

Any conclusion one may reach is not it.

[Michael Sternbach]

The full realization of yourself.

 

If there's such a thing.

[helpfuldemon]

In order to understand who you are, you need to believe in how you are meant to be.  That means first order of business is to decide on an order for life and action.  Then you compare your actions to this list and decide if you were wrong, and what you have learned.  For what are we if not the sum total of our experiences and choices?  This requires some form of dogma, and a delineation of purpose and choice.  It requires a lot of reflection and analysis, and corrections.  You will be lost if you don't choose a dogma, whether it is one that is created, or one you create.  When it is over, the person you find yourself to be should be the person you believe to be good for you, and your actions will follow with what you now understand.  

[liminal_luke]

Conversations about the fine points of enlightenment might be useful for some.  Personally, I'm just trying to get through the morning of the second day of the year without the indulgence of a bagel.  I'll know enlightenment is nigh if I'm not bothered if the barista skimps on my cream cheese.  Others may experience enlightenment differently.

Edited January 2, 2022 by liminal_luke

[C T]

In everyday Buddhist practice, the encouragement is 99% about making effort to end being duped and battered by layers of delusion and 1% on dreamy wishes about enlightenment.

 

We live in a harsh world, and Enlightenment means this harshness comes into full focus as practice matures, gradually peeling off all the buffers that somewhat serve as cushions for those that'd rather not deal with too much reality. Not many actually want to walk this path, hence why some Buddhist masters call it the Warrior's Journey. 

[old3bob]

From The T.T.C. chap. 21

"It lies in the nature of Grand Virtue
To follow the Tao and the Tao alone.
Now what is the Tao?
It is Something elusive and evasive.
Evasive and elusive!
And yet It contains within Itself a Form.
Elusive and evasive!
And yet It contains within Itself a Substance.
Shadowy and dim!
And yet It contains within Itself a Core of Vitality.
The Core of Vitality is very real,
It contains within Itself an unfailing Sincerity.
Throughout the ages Its Name has been preserved
In order to recall the Beginning of all things.
How do I know the ways of all things at the Beginning?
By what is within me."

[old3bob]

 

real identity as Spirit,  instead of a composite of mind (not unlike various programs running on a computer)

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 12/31/2021 at 7:04 AM, helpfuldemon said:

You hear a lot of talk about enlightenment and how difficult it is to reach it/teach it.  It seems to me that some people have no idea what it is, while others have varying ideas of what it could be.  I'm asking the Bums to describe it, and what you would know when you attain it.
 

 

I'll try to add this again, below.

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

On 12/31/2021 at 7:04 AM, helpfuldemon said:

 

You hear a lot of talk about enlightenment and how difficult it is to reach it/teach it.  It seems to me that some people have no idea what it is, while others have varying ideas of what it could be.  I'm asking the Bums to describe it, and what you would know when you attain it.

 

 

 

Have you noticed that everybody in live media now responds to any question with "that's a great question"?

 

That's a great question.

 

Gautama the Shakyan described action as identically determinate thought:

 

"... I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought." 

 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 294)

 

Gautama taught the cessation of "action", first with regard to speech, then with regard to the body, and finally with regard to the mind.  He spoke of "the cessation of inhalation and exhalation" (action of the body) and "the cessation of perceiving and feeling" (action of the mind)--that's shorthand for "the cessation of (determinate thought in) inhalation and exhalation" and "the cessation of (determinate thought in) perceiving and feeling".

 

He described what it's like, when determinate thought (habit or volition) in "perceiving and feeling" ceases:

 

... [an individual] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind … is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”

 

(MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 151-152)

 

That was the Gautamid's experience.  The significance of the experience is in the relationship of determinate thought/willful action to suffering:

 

That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existance takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill.

 

Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place.

 

But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill.

 

(SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45)

 

Insight into dependent causation, like that above, is usually taken to be the substance of Gautama's enlightenment.

 

If you're asking whether I've seen all this for myself, I can say that I have seen the cessation of activities of the body, and the benefit of extending the mind of compassion through the four quarters, above and below, which extension Gautama claimed was the basis for the induction of the first of the further states.  I believe that what Gautama experienced and described with regard to action and the meditative states was real.  His analysis of the basis of suffering, at least as cited above, makes sense to me. 

 

All of which motivates me to sit, and to explore the specific sixteen elements of mindfulness that Gautama described as his way of living.  I do believe now that the mindfulness he described is a rhythm of the sixteen, not a state of mind, and the lynch pin is mindfulness of the cessation of action with regard to the body.  That cessation provides an anchor that allows a rhythm of the elements of mindfulness, including cessation.

 

I'm working on it, when I have to, which is more frequently now--ha ha!

(Note to the Dao Bums programmers--I believe your mini-editor is interpreting:

left-bracket d right bracket 

as the start of line through, why is that!)

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Gerard]

On 1/1/2022 at 1:04 AM, helpfuldemon said:

You hear a lot of talk about enlightenment and how difficult it is to 1.reach it/2.teach it.  It seems to me that 3. some people have no idea what it is, while others have varying ideas of what it could be.  I'm asking the Bums to 4. describe it, and 5. what you would know when you attain it.

 

1. When you ready you'll reach it.

2. It can't be taught I'm afraid. What you can do is learn a proven method that works on the Body & the Mind. 

3. Correct. It's called delusion, ego-centrism.

4. I'll invite you to find out by yourself. The sense of accomplishment and gratification is enormous but you still have to keep chopping wood and carrying water. Life doesn't end with the so-called enlightenment which is a very specific mental state. 

5. When you reach the great realisation of what YOU REALLY ARE. Also no more physical incarnations. You finished for good.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Gerard

[helpfuldemon]

What are we really?  We are biological machines; androids, if you will, and we are playing out the roles that the Creator has set for us, both in waking and in dream.  God is entertaining Himself with our lives.

[Mark Foote]

46 minutes ago, Gerard said:

 

... you still have to keep chopping wood and carrying water...

 

 

Drawing Water and Chopping Wood

(from "An Unauthorized and Incomplete Guide to Zazen", by yours truly)

 

(photo by Ingrid Ringel)

 

Miraculous power and marvelous activity
Drawing water and chopping wood.
 

(Pangyun, a lay Zen practitioner, eight century C.E.)

 

Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there;
lift up the stone and you will find Me there.
 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, pg 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

The breath in emphasizes flexion in the body, as does the action of lifting an object; the breath out emphasizes extension in the body, as does the action of wielding an axe to split a piece of wood.
 

The weight of the entire body can bear at a single point in the movement of inhalation, as though lifting an object; the weight of the entire body can bear at a single point in the movement of exhalation, as though cleaving a block of wood.
 

The weight of the body at a single point generates reciprocal innervation in the muscles of posture, to return a balance in the movement of breath.
 

If the weight of the entire body returns a balance through the movement of a whole inhalation, that’s a miraculous power of the entire universe, as far as I’m concerned; if the weight of the entire body returns a balance through the movement of a whole exhalation, that’s a marvelous activity.

[Eduardo]

A moment of splendor, which remains shining without intending it.
It cannot be taught, nor described, nor less understood

You are that jewel Mani that stay in the lotus Hum

[Mark Foote]

8 minutes ago, Eduardo said:

It cannot be taught, nor described, nor less understood

 

Nevertheless, simple as falling asleep:
 

Meditation on no object should not be confused with blank-mindedness in which you are completely dull as if in a stupor or a faint. It is extremely alert, mindful and clear, but as in the Clear Light death meditations, without any object or thoughts. 
 

In the dissolution process of the bodily elements as outlined previously, consciousness progressively relies on less elements [dissolution of the elements and three subsequent stages of creative energies are described].  After this comes the Clear Light Dharmakaya experience which can be had at death, falling asleep, fainting or in advanced tantric meditations.

(“The Mahamudra:  Eliminating the Darkness of Ignorance”, Wang Chug Dor-je, Alexander Berzin, Beru Khyentze Rinpoche; p. 51-52; commentary by Beru Khyentze Rinpoche on a 16^th century C.E. text by the head of the largest sub-school of the four major Tibetan schools of Buddhism, and Ibid, p. 142)
 

I have had three people who read my Waking Up and Falling Asleep who were able to use what they had read, to fall asleep.  A miracle, to observe the freedom of the singular location of self-awareness to move, and as natural as can be.  Who does such a thing!
 

[S:C]

On 21.3.2022 at 3:49 PM, Mark Foote said:

experience which can be had at death, falling asleep, fainting or in advanced tantric meditations.

in fainting too? 

quite interesting, thanks.

 

is there a medical explanation for this phenomenon? why does this happen and what for?

 

edit: no disrespect, just curiosity.

 

addendum:

just before signing up here, I had read a story here in the forum about a 18 year old (edit: young 25 years old) woman (just after finishing school graduation) who went to a retreat for several days, which was not monitored very well, there was only video instructions and they weren't allowed to talk. (forgot the name of the group, some male master via old video, seemingly lots of people.)

 

she mentioned getting in _ some _ that clear light state, but no one took her seriously or could help her. (staff denied her asking for answers, parents sent her to the clinic and she got meds, but somehow still managed to throw herself of a bridge twice... as she didn't properly ended her life the first time - she thought what she experienced was death, and she should have died that time and something must have gone wrong - in her opinion - , so she wanted to 'fulfill' the experience or like... ) and no one had any idea what was going on. but the retreat seemed to have worked just too well for her. (better than she could handle. stated some members here. - probably another thread yet.)

 

search engine seems to have lost it for me, - there even was a newspaper article, (but I remember @Nungali posted his 'mystical waterfall story' just below... still couldn't find it.) so this seems to happen occasionally, thus my asking about it.

anyone who remembers this thread? 

what happened?

 

Edit II:

found the thread again... Goenka retreat it was. Thanks, @Mark Foote

it doesn't mention if she saw "the" clear light, (- must have been speculation on my part here) AND it only has  a pretty picture of a waterfall posted by @Limahong not the waterfall story I mentioned up (probably read those parallel and made a connection.)

 

 

Edit III:

about this, I had the thought, - even if heretic - that it might be symbolism, - sun and moon often stand for polar energies quite intense ones, - water, earth and air (metal and or wood) often stand for something else in this context, depending on the origins (indian, daoist, western) of the text.

like e.g. the story of Jesus and Pete when they were walking on the waters, it might be also seen 'merely' symbolic, depending on the context and perspective you take (belief in contrast to 'strange emotions and/or doubt', - like that story with the four people who had the same divine experience, and the only one who didn't went mad was the one who went home praising God and doing him the honours with his arts... don't know where I read the story, but it seems to be going 'round...)

On 23.3.2022 at 8:13 PM, Mark Foote said:

earth as though it were water, floating through the air.  The one that stands out for me is "stroking the sun and moon with the hand".

Edited April 6, 2022 by questionmark
found thread etc. adding thoughts together

[old3bob]

perhaps include what it is not....

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, questionmark said:

in fainting too? 

quite interesting, thanks.

 

is there a medical explanation for this phenomenon? why does this happen and what for?

 

... addendum:

just before signing up here, I had read a story here in the forum about a 18 year old woman (just after finishing school) who went to a retreat for several days, which was not monitored very well, there was only video instructions and they weren't allowed to talk. (forgot the name of the group, some male master via old video, seemingly lots of people.)

 

she mentioned getting in that clear light state, but no one took her seriously or could help her....

 

 

I think it's interesting that in the text I quoted previously, the first paragraph says that "objectless meditation" is not as if you were in a faint, and the second paragraph explicitly identifies being in a faint as a place where "the clear light dharmakaya experience" can be had.

The meditative retreat the young woman you mentioned was on sounds like a Goenka retreat.  They have videos rather than in-person instruction (for the most part), and they are long retreats, 10 days of sitting long periods (in any posture) with no talking.   

It's hard to say what her experience actually was, from your description.  There are tales of people doing themselves harm after meditating on the unlovely (aspects of the body), including the sutra about the suicide of scores of monks in the Pali Samyutta Nikaya volume V (chapter on the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing).  Read about a woman not long ago who attended a retreat in India that featured the meditation on the unlovely, and she jumped to her death from a building as a result. There's at least one post about bad results experienced out of Goenka retreats, and the commentators on that post seem to agree that the Goenka retreats aren't equipped to handle anything like this.

 

Karan Vasudeva has a great article documenting his experience at a Goenka retreat, if you're interested.

One of the people who was able to make use of my outline in "Waking Up and Falling Asleep" gave this description, of the moment when he finally found the practice in waking life:
 

I have taken it a bit further, experimenting with it during the day. same practice, find the location of the consciousness.
 

It pulls me into the present. the feeling lasts 2-3 seconds, but it is something that I have never experienced before. being really present, here and now. the mental projection into the future stops, the past stops. I am just here and now. no future plans or worries. no goals, no dreams that are waiting to be fullfilled. time stops. no where to go. I am just here and now.

(Post: Feedback from 'humbleone') 

 

Many years later, I am able to describe what I feel is the appropriate context for such an experience:  it's the rhythm of the elements of mindfulness that Gautama described, the key being that what's important in daily living is the rhythm, not a particular state of mind.  The experience humbleone described above is the witness of cessation, the fifteenth of the sixteen elements of mindfulness that made up Gautama's way of living; the sixteenth is the witness of the relinquishment of self.  

Collect 'em all, here!

[stirling]

At its simplest (and it IS simple) enlightenment is just a perspective shift.

 

It is the sudden experiential realization that how you have interpreted the world you live in, as a vast landscape of separate things interacting over time, is a misunderstanding of how things really are.

 

Very abruptly it is seen that the world exists free of your "self", space, or time. All dualities are realized to be illusory. There has never been a "you" to do the "wrong" thing... or... anything. Everything is understood to be an interwoven and inseparable brocade of phenomena arising and passing away, including the "self" that you thought you were. The past and future have only ever been thoughts happening now. It is the realization that what exists is simply an awareness of phenomena happening now, right where they are.

 

Truly NO-ONE ever becomes enlightened, because enlightenment is the realization that there IS no-one to enlighten. Enlightenment is just non-dual reality remembering what it always already is. 

 

-

 

Quote

"There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity." - Shunryu Suzuki

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by stirling

[old3bob]

can not be gained by ego, to become a super-duper ego

[mrpasserby]

'

Edited March 23, 2022 by mrpasserby