Describe what you think enlightenment is and what you would realize should you have it

[Eduardo]

In terms used by Theravada, the enlightenment of the Buddha directly corresponds to the intuitive understanding of the cause of suffering, the chain that leads to birth and death, the reasons for the bad or good fortune of beings according to their good or bad actions, through the awakening of the divine eye and finally the definitive eradication of desire, hatred, and lust.

Being the meditation and the access to the jhanas the base to obtain the final understanding of the suffering in the samsara.

It is enlightenment in the sense that it corresponds to the clarification of the mysteries of life, and existence through the divine eye, which allows him to remember his previous lives, to know the destiny of the various beings in accordance with the law of Karma.

It is exceedingly difficult for the layman to enter the material jhanas, the monks, yogis, ascetics can access the jhanas and other states of samadhi, however, it is exceedingly difficult to achieve the necessary meditative successes to access Enlightenment.

 

[Creation]

I think it's useful to be familiar with several definitions of enlightenment. 

 

1. Samadhi model - Enlightenment is achieving the deepest possible state of meditative absorption, where mental activity has completely ceased.  Called nirvikalpa samadhi in Yoga, and arupa jhana in Buddhism.  The idea in Yoga is that if the body dies with the mind in this state the practitioner will be liberated from samsara.  Buddhism disagrees that this is final liberation, but some branches of Buddhism still emphasize it as a part of the path.

2. Nondual awakening model - Enlightenment is a shift in perception where the fundamental categories through which experience is filtered are seen to be false and fall away to the extent that is possible while still being functional.  Categories like time, space, self, other, etc.  Emphasized in Advaita, and Zen.

3. The sage-in-flow model - Enlightenment is always being in perfect harmony with the flow of reality, all actions flowing from a connection to this higher principle.  This is the Dao De Jing's perspective.

4. The taintless model - Enlightenment means anger, lust, and delusion are completely eliminated.  You would not be afraid or angry by being tortured (or seeing another being tortured), nor would you feel desire if the most attractive person in the world tried to seduce you.  This is what it means to be an Arhat in Buddhism (technically, a non-returner, the interested reader can investigate further).

5. The total realization model - Enlightenment means all levels of being from the physical to the most subtle are developed to a very high degree, for all practical purposes, as highly as they possibly can be developed.  This means there are transformations to the very physical body, as well as all the siddhis that come from developing the higher bodies, in addition to including all of the above types of enlightenment.  This is what is meant by "Buddhahood" in early Buddhist teachings. 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Creation said:

I think it's useful to be familiar with several definitions of enlightenment. 

 

1. Samadhi model - Enlightenment is achieving the deepest possible state of meditative absorption, where mental activity has completely ceased.  Called nirvikalpa samadhi in Yoga, and arupa jhana in Buddhism.  The idea in Yoga is that if the body dies with the mind in this state the practitioner will be liberated from samsara.  Buddhism disagrees that this is final liberation, but some branches of Buddhism still emphasize it as a part of the path.

2. Nondual awakening model - Enlightenment is a shift in perception where the fundamental categories through which experience is filtered are seen to be false and fall away to the extent that is possible while still being functional.  Categories like time, space, self, other, etc.  Emphasized in Advaita, and Zen.

3. The sage-in-flow model - Enlightenment is always being in perfect harmony with the flow of reality, all actions flowing from a connection to this higher principle.  This is the Dao De Jing's perspective.

4. The taintless model - Enlightenment means anger, lust, and delusion are completely eliminated.  You would not be afraid or angry by being tortured (or seeing another being tortured), nor would you feel desire if the most attractive person in the world tried to seduce you.  This is what it means to be an Arhat in Buddhism (technically, a non-returner, the interested reader can investigate further).

5. The total realization model - Enlightenment means all levels of being from the physical to the most subtle are developed to a very high degree, for all practical purposes, as highly as they possibly can be developed.  This means there are transformations to the very physical body, as well as all the siddhis that come from developing the higher bodies, in addition to including all of the above types of enlightenment.  This is what is meant by "Buddhahood" in early Buddhist teachings. 

 

Thank you for sharing this... very useful. Is if from a particular document?

 

I think it is also good to point out that, while these definitions might seem to be very different on a conceptual/storytelling/cosmological level, there is actually more agreement on what enlightenment looks like than disagreement if you read carefully, IMHO. 

 

For example (my comments using the numbering of the above):

 

1. Someone able to see the qualities of the 8 jhanas in everyday wakefulness would be an Arhat.

 

 

2. This is the typical walking-around understanding of an Arhat. 

 

3. This experience would be completely familiar to the Arhat. My teacher (Soto Zen) calls it "being in alignment".

 

4. The trick with this one, IMHO, is understanding the non-dual nature of reality. If the "self" has dropped away the "taints" do no belong to anyone. There is just what happens, happening now, your values about what is happening notwithstanding. Are the taints likely to occur in the arhat/sage? If there is no clinging or aversion to experience it is highly unlikely. See 3. 

 

5. This definitely happens when "self" drops away (arhat) as how self-other/space/time are seen to exist. After awakening, there is understanding but it takes time for the "self" process to drop out (arhat), and eventually for the karma of seeing the world as it is to wind down. What is "real" gets wiggly. The existence of the siddhis existence comes to make complete sense where the reified existence of time/space/things gets unraveled. Why wouldn't you be able to see dead "people", hear the thoughts of others, or see past lives if NONE of them have any intrinsic existence or real meaning beyond being teaching/dharma that deepens understanding. 

 

This is not to say that all enlightened "beings' are Arhats, but rather all of these share the same understanding with whatever label you choose.

 

My 2¢.

 

Along the lines of Creation's post above, I will share Daniel Ingram's commentary of the various types of models he has encountered. It is well worth a read for the curious, and he has very generously put them on a website in addition to his book:

 

https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-v-awakening/37-models-of-the-stages-of-awakening/

 

 

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

4.  ... Are the taints likely to occur in the arhat/sage? ...

 

5. ... Why wouldn't you be able to see dead "people", hear the thoughts of others, or see past lives if NONE of them have any intrinsic existence or real meaning beyond being teaching/dharma that deepens understanding. 

 

A. K. Warder's "Indian Buddhism" has some fascinating history.  Among other things, he recounts the history of the first schism.  Seems there were five points of contention, and the two camps were able to agree on four of the five.  The one they couldn't agree on was whether or not an arahant could be seduced by a succubus in his sleep--translation:  whether or not an arahant could have a wet dream.

Not as romantic as small vehicle versus great vehicle, is it.

Regarding the miracles:  there are six of them listed in the Pali Suttas.  Things like diving through the earth as though it were water, floating through the air.  The one that stands out for me is "stroking the sun and moon with the hand".  

Gautama's advice for developing psychic abilities was:

 

So he abides fully conscious of what is behind and what is in front.
As (he is conscious of what is) in front, so behind: as behind, so in front;
as below, so above: as above, so below:
as by day, so by night: as by night, so by day.
Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy.
 

(Sanyutta-Nikaya, text V 263, Pali Text Society volume 5 pg 235, ©Pali Text Society)
 

I take a look at this practice (and Gautama's explanation of it) in The Gautamid Offers a Practice.  Regarding the last line, I wrote this:

 

“Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy”: Gautama explained that a monk “cultivates his mind to brilliancy” when the monk’s “consciousness of light is well grasped, his consciousness of daylight is well-sustained.”

 

When consciousness leads the balance of the body to open the ability of nerves to feel, sensory awareness is heightened, and through heightened awareness the sense of location as consciousness occurs is sharpened.

 

As to the “consciousness of light” or of “daylight”, the gland which is perhaps most responsive to daylight in the body is the pineal gland (the pineal produces melatonin), and the gland is supported by a bone in the interior of the skull (the sphenoid) that flexes and extends with the rhythm of the cranial-sacral fluid. The bases of psychic power were desire, energy, thought, and investigation (together with the co-factors of concentration and struggle), and they were to be cultivated by the use of the four-part method described in Gautama’s stanza. Whether or not there is a way to perform miracles and see the past lives or karmic fate of others, I can’t say; that there may be a way to bring about psychic experience through a “consciousness of daylight”, and possibly the occurrence of consciousness at the place where daylight most affects the endocrinology of the body, I would guess could be (although the precise nature of that phenomena may not be what it was thought to be in 500 B.C.E, as for example, the miracle of “handling and stroking the sun and moon with the hand”).

 

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Creation]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

Thank you for sharing this... very useful. Is if from a particular document?

No, just off the top of my head.

[Vajra Fist]

Where would you say stream entry fits within this? Would it be fair to call it a small enlightenment?

 

Typically a person still has a lot of their own crap even after getting a glimpse of their true nature, so there's still a lot of work to be done.

 

They still need to go through a process of further awakenings (known as path attainments), until they attain the final state of an arhat and liberation from samsara.

 

Stephen Snyder equates the theravada concept of stream entry with kensho, within the Zen tradition, and the state of an arhat with Satori.

 

Interestingly, many western Zen teachers, like Meido Roshi, say that true practice doesn't really begin until initial kensho.

 

In that sense, 'enlightenment' could be seen by some as the beginning of the path, rather than the end of it.

 

 

[stirling]

13 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Where would you say stream entry fits within this? Would it be fair to call it a small enlightenment?

 

I think Stream Entry is the first complete and CONVINCING glimpse of non-dual reality. Afterward there is almost always still a sense of self, time, and space being real, but with the experiential (vs. conceptual) gnosis that they are not. It doesn't take long until that gnowing starts to be an ability to SEE non-duality any time the attention is directed toward it.  

 

Quote

Typically a person still has a lot of their own crap even after getting a glimpse of their true nature, so there's still a lot of work to be done.

 

Definitely. There are still many obscurations after any glimpses. One teacher I have read calls it the "growing up" bit, but in the respect to learning to live from "wisdom" or prajna rather than our mistaken ideas about morality and right and wrong or even just arbitrary conceptual constructs of how life is.

 

Quote

They still need to go through a process of further awakenings (known as path attainments), until they attain the final state of an arhat and liberation from samsara.

 

My understanding is that these are simply major moments where larger, tightly held beliefs drop away and more of how things truly are is revealed. 

 

Quote

Stephen Snyder equates the theravada concept of stream entry with kensho, within the Zen tradition, and the state of an arhat with Satori.

 

I don't know if I would agree, not that I have more authority or conceptual knowledge than Stephen. As a former Nyingma school Buddhist, I equate actually understanding my "pointing out" instructions about the "nature of mind" as the first time I understood what "no-self"/emptiness was with as "kensho" and the moment of complete understanding and unshakeable gnosis of that nature as "Satori". My feeling is that "self" finally dropping away (along with time/space) is what finally severs all fetters and creates an "Arhat".

 

Quote

Interestingly, many western Zen teachers, like Meido Roshi, say that true practice doesn't really begin until initial kensho.

 

I agree with that. Once the nature of mind/reality is truly understood there can be very real progress. 

 

Quote

In that sense, 'enlightenment' could be seen by some as the beginning of the path, rather than the end of it.

 

The irony is that enlightenment is, as they say, always present throughout. A not-totally-convincing taste of it as kensho, and then the unquestionable reality of it at Satori/Stream Entry.

[Eduardo]

Enlightenment in Jainism is reached by abandoning secular life, ascetic life, compliance with strict ethical rules such as ahimsa (strict non-violence), fasting and meditation which has similarities with Samatha. and Vipassana, the wandering life without possessions, in absolute nudity, led to go through great sufferings and tests which freed the monk from karma, the ascetic Mahavira after meditating in a rather uncomfortable standing posture, achieved enlightenment, which includes the omniscience, omnipotence and the complete liberation of the soul which upon death enters the state or plane of the liberated, already free and enjoying in the apex of the universe.

[helpfuldemon]

1 hour ago, Eduardo said:

Enlightenment in Jainism is reached by abandoning secular life, ascetic life, compliance with strict ethical rules such as ahimsa (strict non-violence), fasting and meditation which has similarities with Samatha. and Vipassana, the wandering life without possessions, in absolute nudity, led to go through great sufferings and tests which freed the monk from karma, the ascetic Mahavira after meditating in a rather uncomfortable standing posture, achieved enlightenment, which includes the omniscience, omnipotence and the complete liberation of the soul which upon death enters the state or plane of the liberated, already free and enjoying in the apex of the universe.

If abandoning all of the worldly things is enlightenment, and upon reaching that, you are to enjoy the apex of the Universe, what is left for you to enjoy?

[Eduardo]

9 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

If abandoning all of the worldly things is enlightenment, and upon reaching that, you are to enjoy the apex of the Universe, what is left for you to enjoy?

 

The abandonment of all worldly things does not necessarily imply the attainment of enlightenment, it is the first stage, much like entering the stream in early Buddhism.

When you die you enter the plane of liberated souls, far from birth and death. The question of enjoyment, possibly the enjoyment of absolute liberation, is beyond the understanding of this server.

[Lairg]

Perhaps enlightenment is what it says:  Light flows through the personality

[freeform]

7 hours ago, Lairg said:

Perhaps enlightenment is what it says:  Light flows through the personality

It may well be even more literal than that  

[centertime]

18 hours ago, Lairg said:

Perhaps enlightenment is what it says:  Light flows through the personality

I mean the personality acts clear crystal... radiating the light in a pure way.

[Eduardo]

Traditionally, Christian mysticism is a path with three paths or stages: the purgative path, the illuminative path, and the unitive path. 

 

1. The purgative path: The purgative path consists of the purgation of memory, understood as the power of the soul, to cleanse it of the sensitive attachments that come from the body (Detachment and extinction of desire for the objects of the senses, in Buddhist terms)

In the words of San Juan de la Cross: You have to lose taste for the appetite of things.

The appetite as such does not have to be bad, but the attachment or taste that it provokes in the memory is, because it prevents it from fully orienting itself towards God.

Bodily deprivation and prayer are the main purgative means. The state in which memory is added is called hope.

 

2. The Illuminative Way: The illuminative path consists in the elevation of the understanding towards God, understood as the power of the soul.

Once the understanding of all relationships with creatures is cleansed (a deeper form of detachment and isolation) it remains empty to surrender to the dark wisdom or secret wisdom (intuitive or supramental wisdom) that is known without the need to understand, an experience that in reality mysticism is called Faith.

 

3. The unitive way The unitive path consists in the purification of the will, understood as the power of the soul. In it the soul reaches the most perfect degree of union with God, since it has emptied itself of its own will, the most of its own to deliver it to God (Detachment even from one's own will, Sutra 2.45 yoga sutra of Patanjali Through devotion to Ishvara Samadhi is attained)

Edited March 26, 2022 by Eduardo
Clarification

[Geof Nanto]

Daoist Attainment

 

Here is John Blofeld writing in general terms about his extensive experiences with meeting Taoist recluses in China during the first half of last century; a time when the ancient ways were still part of the living tradition: 

 

It would not have occurred to them to speak, even to one another, of having attained anything at all. If one asked them such questions as whether they felt they still had far to go before reaching the end of the Way, their answers might lead one to suppose them idle creatures, pleasantly touched with madness. They would be sure to burst out laughing and protest that they had not thought of going anywhere at all, or do something unconventional such as mooing like a cow or dancing a few steps to indicate the folly of the question. They loved to refer to themselves as idlers or wanderers 'loafing about the world' and their eyes would twinkle if they found someone gullible enough to take them seriously.

 

As soon as one had an inkling of what cultivating the Way implies, it became easier to decide what lay behind their smiling disclaimers. The atmosphere in temples or hermitages where no real cultivation was taking place was very different; there, recluses stood on their dignity and one sometimes felt as though watching a charade. With men of true attainment, their sincerity could never be in doubt. Even if one knew too little of their language to be able to converse with them, their presence was sufficient to communicate feelings of tranquil joy and an incredible stillness. When one practised meditation in their company, results could be achieved of a very different order from those normally obtained. In their vicinity, sorrows and anxiety fell away and serenity spilled forth.

 

Beyond this, there is a dramatic means of identifying those rare beings who have reached the very highest attainment. During a conversation with such a being on some serious subject, an opportunity may occur to look, without making one's intention obvious, straight into his eyes, or, in special circumstances, he may himself choose to confer a revelation (as, on one unforgettable occasion, happened to me). In either case, it is as though for an ecstatic moment a curtain has been twitched aside revealing unimaginable immensities; for the space of a single flash of thought, one shares the vastness of a sage's inner vision! The bliss is indescribable, but not to be endured for more than a fraction of a second, its intensity being too great to be borne by ordinary mortals. Either he, knowing what is occurring, will lower his eyes, or one must tear away one's own. The fruit of such a momentous encounter is of inestimable worth, for never again will one's conviction of the reality of the supreme apotheosis waver.

 

(From John Blofeld, Taoism: the Road to Immortality.) 

[Lairg]

19 hours ago, Eduardo said:

...the soul reaches the most perfect degree of union with God

 

In the Egyptian and Jewish traditions there are 5 souls in the standard human.  The middle soul corresponds to the Christian concept.

 

Meanwhile Christian mystics refer to the Godhead rather than to God.    The Godhead is the essence of God, so presumably more profound in some way

[Eduardo]

2 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Meanwhile Christian mystics refer to the Godhead rather than to God.    The Godhead is the essence of God, so presumably more profound in some way.

 

 

How Saint Teresa of Avila said "God is the Soul of the Soul"

[Mark Foote]

“You hear a lot of talk about enlightenment… I'm asking the Bums to describe it, and what you would know when you attain it.”

 
Bear with me if I repeat some of what I wrote earlier on the thread.

Gautama the Shakyan described “action” as action out of determinate thought:

 

... I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought.

 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 294)

 

 Gautama pointed out the role of “determinate thought” in the cause and effect that leads to “ill”:

 

That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill.

 

Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place.

 

But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill.

 

(SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45)

Insight into dependent causation, like that above, is usually taken to be the substance of Gautama's enlightenment.

Gautama sometimes abbreviated suffering and the “entire mass of ill” as “the five groups”:

 

Birth is anguish, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation, and despair are ill. Not to get what one desires is ill. In short, the five groups based on grasping are ill.

 

(AN I 176, Pali Text Society Vol I pg 160; parenthetical added)

 

Here, “the five groups based on grasping” refers to grasping after a sense of self with respect to either form, feeling, mind, habitual tendency, or state of mind. 

The substance of Gautama’s enlightenment can be paraphrased with “the five groups” in place of “birth, old age and decay, sickness (etc.)”:

 

That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence (of consciousness) takes place in the future, and herefrom (the five groups based on grasping come to be).

 

Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence (arises the five groups of grasping).

 

But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence (of consciousness) takes place in the future, and herefrom (no arising of the five groups takes place). Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill.
 

Gautama taught four truths:  the existence of ill, the origin of ill (the chain of causation as above), the cessation of ill (as above), and the path that leads to the cessation of ill. Regarding the eight-fold path that leads to the cessation of ill, there is a lecture where he offers an approach based solely on the senses (with the mind as the sixth sense):
 

(A person)…knowing and seeing eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes… visual consciousness… impact on the eye as it really is, and knowing, seeing as it really is the experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is not attached to the eye nor to material shapes nor to visual consciousness nor to impact on the eye; and that experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye—neither to that is (such a one) attached. …(Such a one’s) physical anxieties decrease, and mental anxieties decrease, and bodily torments… and mental torments… and bodily fevers decrease, and mental fevers decrease. (Such a one) experiences happiness of body and happiness of mind. (repeated for ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind).

 

Whatever is the view of what really is, that for (such a one) is right view; whatever is aspiration for what really is, that for (such a one) is right aspiration; whatever is endeavour for what really is, that is for (such a one) right endeavour; whatever is mindfulness of what really is, that is for (such a one) right mindfulness; whatever is concentration on what really is, that is for (such a one) right concentration. And (such a one’s) past acts of body, acts of speech, and mode of livelihood have been well purified.

 

(Majjhima-Nikaya, Pali Text Society volume 3 pg 337-338, ©Pali Text Society)

 

What I have recounted in the above quotations is a particular thread in the teachings, a thread that doesn’t tie enlightenment to the notion of reincarnation or multiple lives, but instead only to the phenomena of consciousness and the senses.  The thread is there in what historians agree is the most accurate account of Gautama’s words (the first four volumes of the Pali sermons).

 

I accept that there are experiences that can lead to a great presence of mind that are not the enlightenment experience Gautama had—certainly the two teachers that Gautama had in India prior to his enlightenment had such experiences, and my guess is that most people would have regarded them as enlightened, even though in the end Gautama found their teachings unsatisfactory.

 

In at least two volumes in the Pali sermons, Gautama forsook the direct admonition of the pursuit of enlightenment, and instead advised his followers to adopt the practice of mindfulness that he described as his own. He said that it was his way of living before his enlightenment (when he “was yet a Bodhisattva”, SN V 317), as well as after (“the Tathagatha’s way of life”, ibid 326), and that it was the “best of ways” (ibid).  Moreover, he declared the practice to be a gateway to all the antecedents of enlightenment, and to the release and freedom that constituted enlightenment (ibid 328).

I think most of the teachers regarded as enlightened since Gautama have an intimate familiarity with the elements of mindfulness in Gautama’s way of living, and they have faith that the rhythm of those elements in daily life is the path.

There’s a difference between the mindfulness that was Gautama’s own, and what is currently taught.  That difference has to do with the observation of cessation, the fifteenth of the sixteen elements in Gautama’s mindfulness.  I believe the cessation Gautama referred to is the cessation of (determinate thought in) action of the body, in particular the “cessation of (determinate thought in) in-breathing and out-breathing”--that might sound simple, but here’s a description of what that cessation can look like in daily life:

 

You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around.

 

(Kobun Chino Otogawa, at the S.F. Zen Center, 1980’s)

 

That’s an example of the cessation of action, action based on the exercise of will, or on intent, or on deliberation:  the Gautamid’s way of living gets up and walks around. 

Here’s another description, taken from the close of Dogen’s “Genjo Koan”:

 

Mayu, Zen master Baoche, was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, “Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why, then, do you fan yourself?”

 

“Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent,” Mayu replied, “you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere.”

 

“What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?” asked the monk again. Mayu just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.

 

(tr. Robert Aitken and Kazuaki Tanahashi)

 

I would say Mayu’s fanning continued despite the cessation of (determinate thought in) his action of in-breathing and out-breathing--the wind without intent (the permanent wind) reached to his hand and fanned. 

 

You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you
experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it. 

 

(Kobun Chino Otogawa; “Embracing Mind”, edited Cosgrove & Hall, p 48)

 

Sometimes I think there are teachers out there, especially American-born Zen teachers, who are only intimately familiar with the elements of Gautama’s way of living when it comes to sitting still.  However, as Nan-Yueh Hwai-Jang (Ta-hui) said:

If you’re studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting still.

(“Dogen’s Meditation Manuals”, Bielefeldt, UC Press 1st edition, p 195)

[Straybird]

To my view enlightenment is the use and celebration of reason, the power through which humans understand the universe and improve their own conditions.

The goals of rational humanity were considered to be knowledge, freedom, and happiness.

[Lairg]

What is the Light that enters the human mind so that it is "enlightened"?

[taoguy]

A lot of Buddhism nowadays are very much astray. Very few real teachers who have actually directly realised (not just glimpsed an experience of), or who have gone all the way.

 

Quite a few who catch a glimpse, who do get deep insights but do not go all the way, etc.

 

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/06/the-awakening-to-reality-practice-guide.html

 

These are all you need for authentic buddhist practice.

Edited August 21, 2022 by taoguy

[helpfuldemon]

It would appear that enlightenment is a selfish pursuit; that it doesn't bring about the wisdom to give advice to those whose actions cause disturbance.  I realized years ago that "everything is", and in combination with the rule of liberty, I accept that things just are, and that people will do what they will.  I stopped correcting people years ago.  I'm not into drawing myself into that sort of thing anymore.  People don't want wisdom unless they are looking for it.  

 

I'd like to think that love is the key to wisdom:  that doing things with loving intent leads to correct action.  People don't want to be corrected on this though.  

[helpfuldemon]

I relate to a lot of these definitions of what enlightenment is.  I can't say I enjoy this state.  Mostly it is sitting in the quiet stillness for me.  I no longer possess or am possessed by thoughts, unless I actively force myself to examine something.  My mind is quite still.  I also see the world for what it is, but I have a problem.  I mourn for our world and its suffering.  I see things as being prone to failing.  I have forgotten the joys of youth, and I can't seem to find the hope that people are happy.  I don't actively feel compassion or love, it is more of an intellectual recognition of life.  I am trying to find the Will to decide that life is balanced, to accept these things, and to accept that people get what they deserve.  I feel that this state of mind would be selfish of me, so I resist it.  

[Inner Alchemy]

2 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I relate to a lot of these definitions of what enlightenment is.  I can't say I enjoy this state.  Mostly it is sitting in the quiet stillness for me.  I no longer possess or am possessed by thoughts, unless I actively force myself to examine something.  My mind is quite still.  I also see the world for what it is, but I have a problem.  I mourn for our world and its suffering.  I see things as being prone to failing.  I have forgotten the joys of youth, and I can't seem to find the hope that people are happy.  I don't actively feel compassion or love, it is more of an intellectual recognition of life.  I am trying to find the Will to decide that life is balanced, to accept these things, and to accept that people get what they deserve.  I feel that this state of mind would be selfish of me, so I resist it.  

I just watched a talk by Sri M, and he said that it's important to keep a positive attitude on the spiritual path - to not be defeated by feelings of hopelessness.  Even if it feels like you can't make a big difference in alleviating the suffering of others, maybe one day you will be able to - after full or partial awakening.  They say after enlightenment a tremendous power of compassion arises; and the I Ching says that an awakened person who sets out to benefit others will truly benefit others a great deal - enlightened beings are able to bring genuine relief to the suffering of humanity - even if it's only indirectly.  I went to a talk by a Tibetan Buddhist lama and he said that when Jesus would walk through a town, everyone in the town would experience healing - people would recover from illnesses, etc.  I believe there are stories of great sinners making positive connections with enlightened beings and just through that positive connection they are able to eventually find liberation.  I think Sri M has the right attitude.  Actually he was responding to a woman who felt that she was never going to attain enlightenment.  He said: just make an effort, if you meditate every day then you are making progress and then once you start making an effort you will forget how far you are away from the goal.

[Mango]

Enlightenment is something that came across your mind that you had just realized brings changes to your thinking or life. It was something that you had never experienced before. It is not by an external influence but within yourself.