Heart and breath stopping

[Arisol]

Hi All, 

 

Has anyone here heard of breath and heart stopping due to meditation?

 

I'm doing some research and would appreciate it if anyone here had direct experience with that, or if you know references to texts on it. 

 

Cheers,

 

[ralis]

8 minutes ago, Arisol said:

Hi All, 

 

Has anyone here heard of breath and heart stopping due to meditation?

 

I'm doing some research and would appreciate it if anyone here had direct experience with that, or if you know references to texts on it. 

 

Cheers,

 

Are you wanting to try it? If so it is not recommended! BTW, the heart is not stopped which would be cardiac arrest. 

[Arisol]

Hi Ralis, 

 

No, I'm not trying to do it.

I used to try breath retentions a few years go, but also stopped doing it, seems too much like forcing it. 

 

The topic came to my attention recently and I'm wondering if anyone here has heard of it. Even in texts or references,

Cheers,

 

[dwai]

Not heart stopping but breath stopping for a few minutes at a time is normal for me. 

[Arisol]

22 minutes ago, dwai said:

Not heart stopping but breath stopping for a few minutes at a time is normal for me. 

 

Hi Dwai, 

Is it something you 'do' or is it something that 'happens'?

 

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, Arisol said:

 

Hi Dwai, 

Is it something you 'do' or is it something that 'happens'?

 

It happens. First few times it happened, it freaked me out when my mind realized I’ve not been “breathing” for several minutes.  

[Indiken]

8 hours ago, dwai said:

It happens. First few times it happened, it freaked me out when my mind realized I’ve not been “breathing” for several minutes.  

 

 

Very please, help me,

 

I do not have a teacher, so I see much danger in what I experience,

 

Do you have any feelings more happening at the same time when breathing stops?

 

For example, this night I realized again the true breathing and stopped breathing, then the heart suddenly started palpitating very strong, then I had very cold and sharp feelings in many places of body, then there was desire to curl to fetal position and DU meridian was pushing me like an old man forward, then I walked and tried eating to relax, but as I tried to eat I had a strong desire to vomit, like food is not needed anymore.

 

I do not want to die or injure myself.

 

What was happening to me?

 

Thank you and be well.

 

[Arisol]

Hi Indiken, 

 

What meditation are you practicing? 

[megamorphg]

Breath stopping (xi) is normal even in the earlier levels of samadhi.

Heart stopping is possible at the 3rd jhana/samadhi. There are stories of hindu samadhi masters even being buried for days while in samadhi.

 

However, it would be good to know your practice regimen and if it is naturally induced (due to consciousness) it would be good not to be alarmed/stressed by such a natural phenomenon (which can harm the system).

[Arisol]

Thanks Megamorph, that's interesting. I knew there should be a reference to it in the Indian traditions. 

 

Do you have experience with those traditions?

 

[Indiken]

21 hours ago, Arisol said:

Hi Indiken, 

 

What meditation are you practicing? 

 

Hello Arisol,

 

I do not know any proper meditation, so I use mind.

 

[freeform]

18 hours ago, megamorphg said:

Heart stopping is possible at the 3rd jhana

That is indeed the case.
 

In fact all biological processes slow down to a near stop. This state can continue for months or years. No eating/drinking/peeing/pooing no discernible breath or pulse.

 

Though the likelihood of getting there without a teacher and full time cultivation is so close to zero that it’s worth considering it impossible.

 

A useful yardstick to measure whether you’re capable of entering the 2nd Jhanna is whether you can sit in perfect stillness (of mind and body) for a minimum of 72hrs straight.
 

For the 3rd Jhanna it’s longer (though I’ve not been told what the exact test for that is yet)

 

On 01/01/2022 at 10:20 AM, Indiken said:

For example, this night I realized again the true breathing and stopped breathing, then the heart suddenly started palpitating very strong, then I had very cold and sharp feelings in many places of body, then there was desire to curl to fetal position and DU meridian was pushing me like an old man forward, then I walked and tried eating to relax, but as I tried to eat I had a strong desire to vomit, like food is not needed anymore.

Your intuition that this is dangerous is right. What you’re describing sounds like a qi deviation.

 

First it’s always useful to get a checkup with a Dr. Just to rule out anything physical.

 

when you say “I realised again the true breathing and stopped breathing”

 

What do you mean. Can you walk us through it?

 

The palpitations, curling up in the fetal position and vomiting all suggest that you’re suffering with qi reversal. It concerns me that you say you don’t have any proper meditation method - which suggests that you’re experimenting… this can be very problematic.

[Bhathen]

Quote

I'm doing some research and would appreciate it if anyone here had direct experience with that, or if you know references to texts on it.

Experiments on Swami Rama by the Menninger foundation

(Links to a PDF)

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Bhathen
Inserted quotes for context

[Indiken]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Your intuition that this is dangerous is right. What you’re describing sounds like a qi deviation.

 

Could you describe what is qi deviation? It would be very helpful.

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

First it’s always useful to get a checkup with a Dr. Just to rule out anything physical.

 

I will consider this, thank you. 

 

To find a western medical doctor is easy.

 

But there are not many TCM doctors in my country and now I do not have sufficient funds to travel abroad.

 

I think visiting both types would be beneficial.

 

I had trouble with health most of my life, but now I think I realized how to smooth the meridians, now the term blocked meridians makes sense to me.

 

When you unblock the meridians, body starts to feel lightweight. Now my muscle are much lighter, bone strength feels to need to improve, lungs should be bigger. But there are still some not healthy signs: under eyes and eyelids are still reddish/purple, the nose is stuffed and bleeding, the lips have sores, the sclera still has red blood vessels and so on. The tendons are the most unhealthy and also myopia, but I feel that I am improving my health.

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

when you say “I realised again the true breathing and stopped breathing”

 

What do you mean. Can you walk us through it?

 

I would want to share, but I am not sure. I do not want to obstruct other people ways. If I say the ways, I think people will be able to experience this, because I think it is purely technical. 

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

The palpitations, curling up in the fetal position and vomiting all suggest that you’re suffering with qi reversal. It concerns me that you say you don’t have any proper meditation method - which suggests that you’re experimenting… this can be very problematic.

 

I hold your view that this can be very problematic. Hence I ask for help. Thank you for responding to me.

 

Can you describe what is qi reversal?

 

I feel like I can control this experience with mind. I feel like a normal person when breathing through nose. Just that my dantien feels like a balloon full of air. 

 

Also, I did not vomit, just that I lost desire for food and water and when I tried to eat I felt like vomiting.

 

Thank you for your care.

[Arisol]

2 hours ago, Bhathen said:

Experiments on Swami Rama by the Menninger foundation

(Links to a PDF)

 

Thanks for that pdf! It's a wonderful recount! 

It really shows the big differences between the western mind and the yogi's point of view. 

[freeform]

29 minutes ago, Indiken said:

Could you describe what is qi deviation?

It presents differently depending on what you've been doing and on your constitution.

 

Generally issues tend to be around pathogenic heat and depletion…

 

Stuff like palpitations, night sweats, tremors, pressure in the head, manic/delusional thinking, feeling high, spacey or ungrounded, emotionally reactive.

 

Theres other stuff to do with heat such as rashes, red eyes, mouth ulcers, hot palms, fragile tendons, stuck diaphragm etc etc.

 

Weak legs, lower back pain, knee pain, anxiety, restlessness - signs of depletion.

 

29 minutes ago, Indiken said:

I would want to share, but I am not sure. I do not want to obstruct other people ways. If I say the ways, I think people will be able to experience this, because I think it is purely technical. 

Or it could reveal some clues about what you could be doing that’s causing you issues. 

[dwai]

@Indiken fwiw, I completely endorse what @freeform has expressed. DO NOT experiment with these things without proper guidance - it’s like trying to build a nuclear weapon while sitting on radioactive uranium without shielding. It will harm you. 
 

I would recommend, after stopping your current practices, and getting yourself checked out by a western medical doctor, to start a basic course (can be online if you don’t have access to a teacher in person ). You would be better off starting with a body-based approach.
 

Don’t be in a hurry to work with qi. Prepare your body and mind first. Rest will be easier if you have a good foundation. 

 

Just my 2 cents worth. 

[Indiken]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

It presents differently depending on what you've been doing and on your constitution.

 

Generally issues tend to be around pathogenic heat and depletion…

 

Stuff like palpitations, night sweats, tremors, pressure in the head, manic/delusional thinking, feeling high, spacey or ungrounded, emotionally reactive.

 

Theres other stuff to do with heat such as rashes, red eyes, mouth ulcers, hot palms, fragile tendons, stuck diaphragm etc etc.

 

Weak legs, lower back pain, knee pain, anxiety, restlessness - signs of depletion.

 

Thanks.

 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

Or it could reveal some clues about what you could be doing that’s causing you issues. 

 

Ok. I really want to share.

 

As I stated above, I had and still have many health issues. The majority of symptoms can be put in the field of psychiatry, hence I take some antidepressants. The symptoms are: depression, strong fatigue, social phobia, anxiety and similar. This state was not acceptable to me and western medicine could not help me. So I started self studying TCM.

 

This was several years ago, primarily I tried self accupresure based on my knowledge of TCM and also I went to one TCM practitioner, but it looked like I knew more about TCM than he did. There are not many TCM practitioners in my country and I live not in capital, and I do not have sufficient funds to travel frequently. Also, I wanted to have knowledge to help myself and others if needed and not to depend on other person for my health. Thus I chose to self study TCM. 

 

My first attempts were to press points to restore kidney yang/qi and spleen qi, but the effect was very small. Also, I was interested in Alchemy, with a silly thought, that I could achieve perfect health and extreme longevity. I doubt there are any Alchemist in my country and, also, I do not trust people and trust myself, so again started reading information about Daoist Alchemy. Also, I did read the text which are labeled as to be of extraterestrials/entities of higher densities(ET), which I did because I had fun reading them. Also, I think, that my metaphysical experiences, like seeing UFO's and light balls in my room which target me, are related to this desire to read the ET material.

 

So there is information from TCM, Alchemy and ET which I have. Then this information joined with my nature and I experienced similar symptoms to what I was reading about Alchemy. About this experience I wrote in my first post in Daobums. I felt that I could continue what I at that time was experiencing, but I was afraid to hurt myself. I did the right thing, but the underlying desire to have strong health and long live did not dissapeared from myself. So I continued to study. Last month I was determined to gain as much knowledge of TCM as I could, so I read books, studied the patterns and pressed the accu-points to gain knowledge. I think it was last week an "Enlightenment". I realized the underlying patterns of my health issues regarding the TCM. Earlier I thought that I should press vital kidney, spleen, stomach and ren/du meridian points and health will return. But now I realized that there are many "blockages" in other meridians. So for example, I have a strong accumulation in sanjiao 3, even the muscle there is a bit risen, so when I press that point I experience some lightening feelings, but also I feel other accu-points. For example, I have dampness, it is only in lower burner, so the way to reduce dampness is not only clear the spleen, but to clear the sanjiao, which is responsible for fluid drainage in body. It was very enlightening to read about accu-points and feel instant relief when pressed in the correct spot. For example, I pressed sanjiao-15 and my whole side ribs relaxed, because I think fire as a child of wood is rebelling.

 

So it was not to long, before I was aware of some other feeling, that which prompted my experience about which I wrote in my first post. I realized, that I feel pressure above the skin, I do not know, but I guess that I feel Qi. So when I realized that I can feel that pressure, I also started feeling breathing in lower Dantien again. So, as you, correctly pointed, I tried to experiment with stopping the breath with nose. So then I experienced the symptoms I wrote in this thread. It was different than the first time, which I did wrote in my first post in Daobums.

 

Again, I do not fully fit in this forum, because I do not idealize the traditions people discuss here. My only focus is to be a good person, to experience physicality with less pain and live a normal life like normal people live. 

 

I thought about your words. I think "qi reversal" is a correct term about the experience I did have, which I wrote about in this thread. 

 

[Arisol]

22 minutes ago, Indiken said:

 

Again, I do not fully fit in this forum, because I do not idealize the traditions people discuss here. My only focus is to be a good person, to experience physicality with less pain and live a normal life like normal people live.

 

Oh Indiken, you're a very sweet person. You've said some beautiful things in your post here. 

My heart goes out to you that you've had to deal with illness like that, and that you're honestly studying solutions on your own. 

 

27 minutes ago, Indiken said:

Also, I wanted to have knowledge to help myself and others if needed and not to depend on other person for my health. Thus I chose to self study TCM

This is the moment you stop being a victim of your circumstances and become a creator of your fate. I admire your courage and dedication. 

 

You will find the right teacher on your path when you are sincerely on it. And it does go much more smoothly when you do have a good teacher. 

 

Right now, there are a lot of opportunities to learn online and some are even reasonably priced. 

 

I wish you all the best in your journey.

 

 

 

[freeform]

15 hours ago, Indiken said:

Ok. I really want to share.

Thanks for sharing. I’m sorry to hear that you’re having a tough time with your health. It’s particularly difficult when the standard medical approach can’t seem to help.

 

15 hours ago, Indiken said:

So I started self studying TCM.

I think that’s a good thing to do. But it’s quite difficult to be your own therapist - particularly as a beginner.

 

15 hours ago, Indiken said:

Also, I was interested in Alchemy, with a silly thought, that I could achieve perfect health and extreme longevity.

Alchemy is not the right thing for achieving perfect health to be honest.
 

With alchemy you really need to have reasonably good physical and mental health to begin.

 

I’m not sure if you’re looking for advice - but if you are then I suggest 3 key things to start with: exercise, sleep and food.

 

Exercise is a big one - and it really depends on your constitution - it can be anything from taking long brisk walks to high intensity bodyweight training. Start slow and build up. 
 

Sleep is also a big one - get no more and no less than 8hrs… make your sleep time regular every day… be asleep by 11pm.

 

Food - eat local, fresh, in-season food. Include some red meat if you can. Home cooked meals - not processed ones. Avoid vegetable oils (except olive) and sugar as much as possible. Make simple, uncomplicated meals with not too many ingredients and flavours.

 

Getting these 3 things sorted can be hard… and boring - but they’re by far the most important things. Even advanced qigong practitioners that don’t follow these basics get health issues.

 

Sometimes people read these and think ‘oh I’m reasonably good on all three’… but if you ask them to keep a diary for each aspect, they quickly realise just how faulty their memory and self perception are.

Once you have to truthfully evaluate when you go to sleep and wake up, what you eat and how much you exercise - over the period of a month, you’ll have to see the reality of your habits (and usually it doesn’t match up with your initial impressions of this)

 

Once you have these things sorted, I can suggest some other internal training you can do. Stuff that’s not dangerous and that will calm your system, enable you to sink and strengthen kidneys and spleen.

Doing this internal stuff before having the 3 key aspects above sorted won’t do much good to be honest.