There is Chaos in Free Will, but all Order is fascist.

[helpfuldemon]

What is the goal of a dogma?  It is to bring order to an uncertain world, but in this world we have free will, and in freedom comes chaos.  So which do you choose?  The slave Gods of dogma, or the liberty Gods of free will?

[ralis]

Chaos and order are not separate entities, but are about the state of change in the cosmos. Fascist political ideologies always fall to disorder which is the way of things.

[Hannes]

On 1/2/2022 at 12:41 PM, ralis said:

Chaos and order are not separate entities, but are about the state of change in the cosmos. Fascist political ideologies always fall to disorder which is the way of things.

 

I think it was early Marx that concluded that all ideologies change over time.
(he later thought Marxism would be an end state but that is wishful thinking).

 

In everything we see a pendulum swinging. The seasons, the phases of the moon, the stages of life (birth and death).
society is also a living organism, so it will change. 

 

What is called order is stagnation and what is called Chaos is flow.
What is called peace is balance and what is called war is the moment of change.

 

To OP

I choose awareness. The rest will follow.

[silent thunder]

As i experience it in the last decade or so; Free Will seems a profound illusion.

Conditioning prompts the precursors to thought and emotion that motivate what we call choice.  Which is described by local consciousness after the fact. 

 

The impulses that drive 'choice' occur prior to conscious processing.

Conscious processing is the unfolding of interpretation... of rationalization that we use to describe conditioned, nigh on automated responses after they occur.

These rationalizations to conditioned behavior become as comfortable and beneath notice as water to a fish it seems to me. 

 

And for the unquestioning, rationalizing, sleeping awareness... It's so comforting to think we're driving all of this around, all in control...

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by silent thunder
altered wording for clarity of rationalization

[stirling]

10 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

As i experience it in the last decade or so; Free will seems a profound illusion.

Conditioning prompts the precursors to thought and emotion that motivate what we call choice.  Which is described by local consciousness after the fact. 

 

The impulses that drive 'choice' occur prior to conscious processing.

Conscious processing is the process of rationalization we use to interpet conditioned responses after they occur.

These rationalizations to conditioned behavior become as comfortable and beneath notice as water to a fish it seems to me. 

And for the unquestioning, rationalizing, sleeping awareness... It's so comforting to think we're driving all of this around, all in control...

 

Dogmas are constructed within the delusion of agency so that we feel better about our actions and the world. Ultimately order and chaos are just ideas. Things are as they are. The way out is to learn to see through belief in the "self" and having let go of it find alignment with things as they are in this moment. 

 

Correlative data confirms that humans only tell the story to themselves about their choices AFTER something has happened. Your internal dialogue appears many fractions of a second after what has already happened. 

 

https://www.wired.com/2008/04/mind-decision/

 

Those that live in their thinking minds are not experiencing reality, they are too busy making themselves an illusory "self" that they believe participates or has agency. The internal dialogue comments NOT on things that are actually happening, but always on things that have already happened OR imagined but illusory "futures" that never will in the way that they imagine. 

 

Quote

You have never had a thought that was true. - Adyashanti

 

How might this challenging idea be a reality?

 

It's worth thinking about what impact choices we feel we make might have on the world at all. If current science is to be believed the first event in the universe was a "big bang" that created a cascade of conditions working their way down to the present moment. What makes anyone think that their actions as an individual could move the needle under the weight of such a causal cataract? The conditions that exist in this moment of "choice" are only ones handed to us by our lifetime of conditioning, and conditioning. What we will do is a foregone conclusion.

 

Quote

If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe - Carl Sagan

 

[helpfuldemon]

We are indeed at the mercy of prior conditioning, and should we delete all conditioning to its essential, we would still be left with basic choices from a set of actions that we cannot avoid.  This doesn't mean we don't have free will, it means we have limited free will; we still have choices.

[Shadao]

On 02/01/2022 at 3:27 PM, helpfuldemon said:

What is the goal of a dogma? 

1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a religion.
2. A principle or statement of ideas, or a group of such principles or statements, especially when considered to be authoritative or accepted uncritically

-From The Free Dictionary

 

So it seems that it's to impose someone's will unto others and make them accept it as the truth.

 

[Lairg]

On 1/3/2022 at 4:27 AM, helpfuldemon said:

in this world we have free will, and in freedom comes chaos

 

Two interesting propositions!

 

With our free will, why are we mostly constrained by gravity?  It is an affront to my free will.

 

Apparently the first word that children learn is No!    That too is an affront.

 

So what is the source of this supposed free will?  What is the mechanism or intelligence operating the free will?

 

Does the enlightened human progress through layers of Will?

 

How many layers are there to the mechanism/intelligence?  Do they have purposes?

 

Perhaps chaos is only seen at the lowest frequencies of free will.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Lairg

[stirling]

21 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

We are indeed at the mercy of prior conditioning, and should we delete all conditioning to its essential, we would still be left with basic choices from a set of actions that we cannot avoid.  This doesn't mean we don't have free will, it means we have limited free will; we still have choices.

 

I agree that working to drop our conditioning is a worthwhile endeavor, but the idea that we are in charge in any way is something we can work to uncover in meditation. Using the simple "open awareness" method (simply sitting and watching thoughts, feelings and phenomena arise and pass) we can notice that thoughts come AFTER other phenomena. Thoughts are how the thinking mind processes reality, but as it turns out actively thinking is unnecessary. Most would agree that thoughts never entirely go away, but are properly seen for what they are - not an exalted function that we believe we MUST have that defines who "we" are, but rather just another sensory input which is no more important than smell or any other sense.

 

Our choices are a product of our conditioning. What is most likely to happen is a function of how our "mind" is. If we are attracted to kindness, our actions become kinder. If we are fearful our actions come out of choices that attempt to preserve our illusory "self". 

 

Enlightenment is seeing through the illusion of a "self" with agency and realizing that neither ever existed and are impossible. 

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

attempt to preserve our illusory "self". 

 

The will of the personality is devoted to the preservation of itself.  To preserve its self-esteem the mental intelligence at the core of the personality may discard relationships and allow physical death -  all rather than admit it was wrong.

 

If the human can transcend the persona it can operate within a higher entity and thereby access a higher will

[Desmonddf]

Will is always bound by either Desire or Nature. It is its birthplace, its origin.

 

There is no Will that comes from nothingness. Therefore, there is no Will without a mother, a father, a Master.

 

All Free Will is only illusion. Illusion of Freedom illusion of unlimited power. And so is all form of Chaos. For it also has a Mother, it also has a Master.

[Lairg]

On 4/27/2022 at 6:03 AM, Desmonddf said:

Will is always bound by either Desire or Nature

 

Such absolute statements are stronger if associated with evidence.   Even one exception is a disproof. 

 

Consider the various "saints" that when praying were sometimes not bound by the nature of gravity.  Why am I bound by gravity, no matter how much will I use, but they were not?

 

Personally I suspect "always" does not hold across even this universe

[C T]

Maybe only your physical body is limited by natural laws. You have other bodies too, and they aren't bound by the same laws that govern the physical world. I suppose saints are no exception. If they're seen levitating, I'm guessing that's probably one type of bliss body manifestation. This will not be apparent to everyone witnessing the feat. In vajrayana circles, say in the presence of a realised master, only advanced practitioners will palpably perceive the master's light, or rainbow body. Neophytes won't see it, but their innate buddha-nature will sense something positive and that's what draws them to the master. Ask them why, and there'll be all sorts of answers... with most missing the real cause. 

[Aeordimm]

On 1/2/2022 at 1:27 PM, helpfuldemon said:

What is the goal of a dogma?  It is to bring order to an uncertain world, but in this world we have free will, and in freedom comes chaos.  So which do you choose?  The slave Gods of dogma, or the liberty Gods of free will?

 

I rather not have this choice. I will use both ideas to my benefit when it suits me. Because they are different sides of the same coin. 

[terry]

 

 

“fire at will”

“which one’s will?”

 

 

 

   Any discussion in buddhist terms of “free will” founders on the requirement that we define who it is who has will, that is, who the self is, which buddhism will not do. Buddhism in the west tends to deny self, deny will; in this we follow other religions in self-denial and fatalism.

 

   It’s all humbug, of course.

 

   Will clearly exists, and is free by definition. Some sentient beings are strong willed, some are weak willed; the active and the passive, in their action and passion. So the question is, how can buddhism deal with will in the absence of agency? Further, what is will in the context of non dualism, where the object of willing and the subject of willing are not two?

 

   Will may readily be shoveled into the ditch of the skandha of volitions and disregarded as a mere phenomenon rather than as the ghost in the machine. Will must be understood if egotism is not to be fostered as a child of volition.

 

    The problem really lies in the traditional theology of the west. True religions don’t require beliefs or a style of thought, only practice. Empire mind control propaganda designed to establish the worship of god kings on earth has been adopted by western agencies and permeates the culture propagated by/in western languages.

 

   “I am non self” is nonsensical, like plato’s cretan who said, “all cretans are liars.” “I have no will” is equally nonsensical: will is self-will. This leads those of us who know non self personally to tend to deny the reality of both self and will. Because self and will do/do not exist, we are led to the question, “what is reality?” Or, better, “what is existence?”

 

   “Existence,” it turns out, is not what we imagine it to be. “All things arise and pass away,” that is, “things,” dharmas, both exist and do not exist. Things appear to come out of nonexistence into existence and then return to nonexistence. Existence and nonexistence follow each other, depend on each other; they are not two.  Our existence as an individual self is like this. A lamp is lit from another lamp; its fuel expires or it is blown out. The will of the flame is to burn as long as it has the requisites.  The will of life is to is to thrive.

 

   Western theology, unlike buddhism, separates self into greater and lesser, god and creature. The creature is abjured to abase herself and accept god as lord; that is, to submit one’s individual will to the will of god. This separation is dualistic and thus irrelevant to nirvana.

 

   God says be fruitful and multiply and the individual agrees, so there is no basic conflict. God is good and loves us. Only, we are selfish and greedy and so god chastiseth. Western buddhists are often infected with this sort of methodism, conditioning the flock to embrace the collective will and do what is expected of them.

 

   The problem with dualism is that the ego is made permanent thereby. God is in  heaven and we are down here being lustful and angry. God is good and loving and all else is our fault. 

 

   In non dualism there is no god or self as entities, there are no entities at all but a flux of chickens and eggs with no beginning or end dependently coarising. All sentience is will - look into any eyes of any species and you may see the will of god self  in existence. The will of god self is equally real in nonexistence, you just don’t see it.

 

   Ram dass used to say, “if god says all the birds will get up at 5 am, all the birds get up at 5 am.” The will of god is what is. When your will is precisely what is, your will is not different from the will of god. And like in mathematics, when two terms cancel each other out they drop out of the equation, leaving no self, and no will, at all.

   Sunyata.

terry

 

from the song “dogma: I am god” by suicide silence

Dogma, I am god

Evil did I dwell, lewd I did live

Dogma, I am god

   
    

   

   

[Jadespear]

It's pretty simple.  Facts of life and fate prompt you to make decisions, that's using your will.  You're free to express it how you want.  

 

Order is not fascist in the real sense.  We are surrounded by a universe of tremendous order that is ineffable.  Without structure and cause and effect, existence could not be , occur, or evolve.  It's impossible to refute.  Trying to do so is futile, immature, and a waste of time.  

 

Everything exists because of the will.  It is the most basic quality of everything.  

[Cobie]

25 minutes ago, Jadespear said:

It's pretty simple.  Facts of life …

 Life is simple, it’s just not easy.