Why is nothingness/emptiness/lack of ego the desired state?

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

Equally compatible with the dzogchen view. The critical point is realization of the base, which has the nature of space and clarity. ‘Standing alone’ refers to the unbounded and pervasive aspect and ‘without change’ is a characteristic of space, or emptiness.

 

all of which are debatable depending on the person or people...;-)  The Self of Vedanta per the Upanishads and other revealed scripture given over thousands of years by Self realized beings holding to Sanatana Dharma is so much clearer  to me than wading into the various convolutions of much that is related to Buddhism and its sects even if many of their teachings do hold much wisdom.  (btw some forms of Buddhism or certain scriptures  lean toward the eternal Self, then again to some some Buddhists the term 'eternal' is like a four letter word to be refuted and or shunned no matter what...

Edited January 19, 2022 by old3bob

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

 

I appreciate what you are stating, but anyone not having direct exposure to Dzogchen transmission has no idea what you are talking about. 

 

You are probably right in many cases. On the other hand, one valuable lesson I've learned is that it's best not to make assumptions about what people can and cannot understand. While dzogchen teachings were once highly secret, they are now made easily accessible. In the hopes of not losing the knowledge, the current mindset among many teachers is more one of putting the teachings out there for the public with the hope that they will hit fertile ground here and there. I know for a fact there are more than a few folks that frequent the forum who have had deep experiences of emptiness / non-duality, with or without exposure to dzogchen teachings. Having that perspective makes the words and concepts easy to appreciate. Perhaps for others, a phrase or description could simply click, taking them to the next level. I see that happen from time to time. It's also possible that such information can be confusing but that's no different from Hindu teachings or the DDJ. For these reasons, I'm relatively comfortable bringing up these ideas here. 

 

(I don't direct this next part necessarily at you, ralis, but rather anyone interested in or confused by my analogy.)

 

In fact, I would encourage anyone interested in the topic to really give some attention to the concept of space and how that relates to the view in any of the wisdom traditions. Space is unique in that it cannot be grasped or limited, it cannot be bounded or measure, it is indestructible yet is completely empty of any inherent substance, it has no edge or corner, no size, and no center. And yet one can say the center is anywhere and everywhere. It is no-thing and yet it is whole, one can even use the word "one." The subject is treated elegantly in the book Time, Space, and Knowledge by Tarthang Tulku. It is not referring to outer space but rather the concept of space in the sense of absence or openness that allows something to occupy it. It's also a hot topic in astrophysics where those very characteristics come into play when thinking about things like the big bang. One cannot say that the big bang occurred in any one particular place or position even though it is considered to have started in a single point. Some even suggest it occurred everywhere simultaneously. It's an interesting think to ponder.

 

Once we get a feel for space, the other characteristic of emptiness that is critically important is clarity. Emptiness has little meaning without awareness of that emptiness, which is clarity. The base of all, one may say Dao, is both empty and clear. Neither characteristic exists without the other. It is the clarity that prevents us from falling into nihilism. And although it is empty, it has the potential for anything and everything to manifest. That is the spontaneous energy that presents to us 'as illusion' that nevertheless cannot be said to be "unreal."

 

The dzogchen view is neither emptiness nor clarity. It is also not both. It is the direct experience of our own mind when it is not occupied by thought, emotion, or attention to sensory perception. It is also the experience of that mind fully occupied, provided we are able to remain undistracted by that content. It is experiential rather than conceptual or theoretical. With a little bit of practice, the actual meaning of emptiness and clarity arise spontaneously. Anyone can experience this with relative ease in brief glimpses, in fact most already have. The key is to recognize it for what it is and to gain stability and confidence in that recognition so that it becomes a valuable part of our lives. 

[doc benway]

8 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

all of which are debatable depending on the person or people...;-)  The Self of Vedanta per the Upanishads and other revealed scripture given over thousands of years by Self realized beings holding to Sanatana Dharma is so much clearer  to me than wading into the various convolutions of much that is related to Buddhism and its sects even if many of their teachings do hold much wisdom.  (btw some forms of Buddhism or certain scriptures  lean toward the eternal Self, then again to some some Buddhists the term 'eternal' is like a four letter word to be refuted and or shunned no matter what...

 

The problem with the concept of eternal, when not relating to space due to its unique characteristics, is that it creates a number of logical fallacies. I'm not well versed or studied enough to discuss and debate them confidently but am aware of the the limitations associated with that postulate. It's been debated ad nauseum for millenia and will likely continue to be long after we're gone.

 

The good news for me is that whether we postulate that the Self is empty or eternal is of very little real consequence, it's simply an idea, sort of similar to postulating whether or not a "God" created the Big Bang. The existence of a creator God or the Eternal nature of the Self are not needed and cannot be proven or disproven. And yet one can sit in meditation, experience that Self directly, and grow spiritually...

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, natural said:

 

In that your reality may not be mine?

Either of which maybe widely shared, or disregarded?

 

 

 

The first point related to Rinpoche's comment is that what we perceive is an illusion because the manner in which we perceive it only tells part of the story. Our perception is incomplete, hence inaccurate.

The second point is that each of us participate, at the very least, in the creation of our reality.

Consequently we each experience a different reality over the course of our lives.

There are similarities but also distinct differences, not only among people, but among all sentient beings.

[old3bob]

per Vedanta and the realization of the Self there is only one of us (in the many of us so to speak);  The Self is, Happy beyond any opposite of sadness and Free beyond any aspect, attachment or identity of mind.

Edited January 19, 2022 by old3bob

[stirling]

3 hours ago, ralis said:

 

I have been trying to comprehend it since I was a kid. Only to be left with a fractured brain. 

 

That would be the issue... it isn't something the thinking mind will ever grasp, it is only available experientially.

[helpfuldemon]

I asked this question because I was hoping to hear what the benefits of sitting in nothingness/lack of ego were.  I find myself sitting in nothingness a lot, I cannot say I have no ego, but I do know that I don't get offended easily and find little interest in things.  It is kind of depressing and it was difficult to get accustomed to, but I am managing.  I assume it is more for the sake of others that we defeat our ego but I don't know.  I miss the days of desire.

[Indiken]

8 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

I asked this question because I was hoping to hear what the benefits of sitting in nothingness/lack of ego were.  I find myself sitting in nothingness a lot, I cannot say I have no ego, but I do know that I don't get offended easily and find little interest in things.  It is kind of depressing and it was difficult to get accustomed to, but I am managing.  I assume it is more for the sake of others that we defeat our ego but I don't know.  I miss the days of desire.

 

Outer depression happens, when you are too happy inside.

[dwai]

1 minute ago, helpfuldemon said:

I asked this question because I was hoping to hear what the benefits of sitting in nothingness/lack of ego were.  I find myself sitting in nothingness a lot, I cannot say I have no ego, but I do know that I don't get offended easily and find little interest in things.  It is kind of depressing and it was difficult to get accustomed to, but I am managing.  I assume it is more for the sake of others that we defeat our ego but I don't know.  I miss the days of desire.

I think the point is that "Ego" is not really a thing. It appears to be, due to ignorance about our "true nature" -- which is awareness/luminous clarity/clear light (however one might call it). So, if we say "I do have an ego", it is okay. But that ego is known to something else. Whatever you (can) know, you are not that. Therefore,  you are not your ego. So what are you then? 

 

Ego is not to be "defeated", "destroyed", or "vanquished" (or any other such destructive things). Before we realize our true nature, we take the ego to be the self (which is what ego's job is -- to attach identities to being). Once realization occurs, it becomes evident that there is no such entity called the "ego" -- it is simply a process of the mind. When that happens, a whole bundle of issues that relate to suffering simply fall away (or at the very least, loosen their vice-like grip over the mind). 

 

[natural]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

I think When that happens, a whole bundle of issues that relate to suffering simply fall away (or at the very least, loosen their vice-like grip over the mind). 

 

 Hopefully!

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

I asked this question because I was hoping to hear what the benefits of sitting in nothingness/lack of ego were.  I find myself sitting in nothingness a lot, I cannot say I have no ego, but I do know that I don't get offended easily and find little interest in things.  It is kind of depressing and it was difficult to get accustomed to, but I am managing.  I assume it is more for the sake of others that we defeat our ego but I don't know.  I miss the days of desire.

 

ego drops away, looses it grip, has its shell cracked, for Spirit seeks Itself to be free, and that freedom is true desire.  

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

I asked this question because I was hoping to hear what the benefits of sitting in nothingness/lack of ego were.  I find myself sitting in nothingness a lot, I cannot say I have no ego, but I do know that I don't get offended easily and find little interest in things.  It is kind of depressing and it was difficult to get accustomed to, but I am managing.  I assume it is more for the sake of others that we defeat our ego but I don't know.  I miss the days of desire.

 

I would say the experience of a singularity in the location of self-awareness is co-existent with the experience of "nothingness", they are really one experience. 

Steve talked about open space, with clarity.  That's the environment in the experience of "the freedom of the singular location of self-awareness to move", the mind that is "present without abode" (Diamond Sutra), and the "clear light dharmakaya" (Naropa, I believe).  

From my The Early Record:

Gautama spoke about the induction of concentration:
 

Making self surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind.

(SN V 200, Pali Text Society V 176)

 

“One-pointedness of mind” could mean the steady focus of attention on some particular object, as Zen teacher koun Franz outlined:

 

Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’. 

(“No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site
https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/)

 

However, a steady focus of attention on some particular object is not the only way to interpret “place your mind here”:

 

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one.

 

(Ibid)

 

Most people can concentrate their attention on their hands, and they don’t need to make self-surrender the object of their thought in order to do so. However, as koun Franz pointed out, some surrender of personal agency is required in order for “the base of consciousness” to shift location.

 

Here is Gautama’s description of the feeling of the first state of concentration:

 

… as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so (one) steeps, drenches, fills and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19)

 

The analogy Gautama provided is actually incomplete. The parallel for the copper basin is the body, the parallel for soap and water is zest and ease, but zest and ease cannot be kneaded into a solid the way soap and water can be worked into a “bath-ball”. I would suggest that the parallel for the bath-ball is the mind that moves away from the head. That mind, or the location of that mind, can be “enveloped” and “saturated” with zest and ease, until the location of that mind becomes palpable.

The "singular location of self-awareness that moves" and the clear space in which it moves--one experience to me.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Mark Foote

[ralis]

I don't usually discuss my experience on a public forum since misunderstandings can happen here. Here is the exception.

 

I have and still do experience both internal and external space as a continuum of direct experience simultaneously. There is no one particular place of concentration unless I have need of that experience. This came directly from Namkhai Norbu coupled with retreats in which I practiced sky gazing and other practices. Am I able to describe this experience? Not really given that space and phenomena are inseparable.

Edited January 20, 2022 by ralis

[ralis]

@steve

 

What I just described is your experience?

[doc benway]

@ralis

I’d say I can taste some of what you are describing but I don’t know that we can ever know another’s experience for sure or share an experience. I would rather say all experience is necessarily unique… though you can feel it when there is a shared perspective somehow…

 

Spoiler

…particularly where non dual or unbounded experience is concerned

 

[doc benway]

Emptiness to a contemporary quantum physicist…

 

 

[Mark Foote]

... the Clear Light Dharmakaya experience which can be had at death, falling asleep, fainting or in advanced tantric meditations.

(“The Mahamudra:  Eliminating the Darkness of Ignorance”, Wang Chug Dor-je, Alexander Berzin, Beru Khyentze Rinpoche; p. 142; commentary by Beru Khyentze Rinpoche)
 

 

What I wrote, in Waking Up and Falling Asleep:

 

 

Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. ... When my awareness shifts readily, I realize that my ability to feel my location in space is made possible in part by the freedom of my awareness to move.

 

... When I allow what I feel to enter into where I am, then my awareness remains free, and I can relax and keep my wits about me.

 

Here's a description made to me on Dao Bums by "humble one", some years back: 

 

I woke up at 4:30 AM, after a quick drink of water. returned to bed and tried your practice.

I hope I did it correctly, I was somewhat surprised that my mind moved around quite a bit. not fast, but in slow motion the awareness would shift, from left cheek to right side of torso etc. The end result was a light sleep state... 

The ability to stay with the location of self-awareness can be experienced very readily in falling asleep.  The thoughts trail off and space opens up for the location of self-awareness to shift and move.  Many times I've thought, I'm much too aware of where I am right now, of where my awareness is situated in my body, to fall asleep.  Last thought.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Mark Foote

[awaken]

On 2022/1/5 at 6:03 AM, helpfuldemon said:

I don't understand how this became to be desired.  Sure, it is peaceful and you don't cause any problems in the world, but is it really the best state to be in?  I think desire is fine, and chasing your desire is the spice of life.  Why do so many want to attain to nothingness and lack of ego?  Is life so painful?  

 

因為你根本沒練，所以你會把日常生活中的價值觀，和修煉深處的現象混為一談。

 

這裡說的是，要入定，三摩地，進入空性狀態，必須練到無我才可以進入空性狀態，無我是一種六識止息的狀態，無眼耳鼻舌身意，這些感官運作都停止了，但是無上正等覺卻覺醒了，就一個實修者的實際操作就是，耳朵沒有聽覺，眼睛沒有視覺，意識也不動了，所有一切感官都停止了，在這樣的情況下，實修者沒有睡著，另外內在的一個深度覺醒過來了，這中間有一個心輪的切換，所以五蘊皆空會放在心經當中，講的是一種深度入定的實修現象。

 

這個實修現象，沒有正確的修煉方式，是不可能練出來這種六識暫停，無上正等覺醒來的一種切換。

 

這和日常生活中的無我價值觀，完全是兩回事，基本上佛法已經被嚴重扭曲成一種價值觀，原來的實修現象，已經很少人知道了。

 

 

很多人將『置心一處』當作入定，以為入定就是把注意力拴在一個點上面，這完全是錯誤的，注意力拴在一個點上面的做法，完全不是佛陀的教導，完全不符合四念處，四禪的內容。

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by awaken

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, awaken said:

 

因為你根本沒練，所以你會把日常生活中的價值觀，和修煉深處的現象混為一談。

 

這裡說的是，要入定，三摩地，進入空性狀態，必須練到無我才可以進入空性狀態，無我是一種六識止息的狀態，無眼耳鼻舌身意，這些感官運作都停止了，但是無上正等覺卻覺醒了，就一個實修者的實際操作就是，耳朵沒有聽覺，眼睛沒有視覺，意識也不動了，所有一切感官都停止了，在這樣的情況下，實修者沒有睡著，另外內在的一個深度覺醒過來了，這中間有一個心輪的切換，所以五蘊皆空會放在心經當中，講的是一種深度入定的實修現象。

 

這個實修現象，沒有正確的修煉方式，是不可能練出來這種六識暫停，無上正等覺醒來的一種切換。

 

這和日常生活中的無我價值觀，完全是兩回事，基本上佛法已經被嚴重扭曲成一種價值觀，原來的實修現象，已經很少人知道了。

 

 

很多人將『置心一處』當作入定，以為入定就是把注意力拴在一個點上面，這完全是錯誤的，注意力拴在一個點上面的做法，完全不是佛陀的教導，完全不符合四念處，四禪的內容。

 

 

 

Translation please?

[Mark Foote]

Quote

This is the translation Google's "Chinese to English" translator gives for Awaken's post:

 

Because you haven't practiced at all, you will confuse the values in your daily life with the phenomena deep in your cultivation.
 

 What is said here is that to enter into samadhi, to enter the state of emptiness, one must practice the state of no-self before entering the state of emptiness. No-self is a state of cessation of the six senses, without eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. It stopped, but the supreme and equal awareness has awakened. The actual operation of a practitioner is that the ears have no hearing, the eyes have no vision, the consciousness does not move, and all the senses have stopped. The cultivator did not fall asleep, and another inner depth awakened. There was a switching of the heart chakra in the middle, so the five aggregates were empty, and they would be placed in the Heart Sutra, which is a kind of deep meditation phenomenon.

 

 This phenomenon of actual cultivation, without the correct cultivation method, it is impossible to practice this kind of transition of the suspension of the six consciousnesses and the supreme awakening.

 

 This is completely different from the value of selflessness in daily life. Basically, Buddhism has been seriously distorted into a value, and the original practice phenomenon has been known to very few people.

 

 Many people regard "setting one's mind in one place" as entering meditation, thinking that entering meditation is to tie one's attention to one point, which is completely wrong. The practice of focusing one's attention on one point is completely inconsistent with the teachings of the Buddha. The four bases of mindfulness, the content of the four meditations.

What about the Gautamid's description of his enlightenment, in the Middle Length sayings of the Pali sermons?

 

... [an individual comprehends thus, 'This concentration of mind ... is effected and thought out.  But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.' When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasuress and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance.  In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends:  "Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy) faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so'.  [They] comprehend thus:  "The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here.  And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself."

 

(MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society translation Vol III pg 151-152)

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying focus the attention on one point.  I am saying that in a healthy individual, there exists a singular location of self-awareness, and it's possible to stay with that sense of location.  What I wrote in Old Habits:
 

In modern neurobiology, there’s a recognition that dysfunction in any of the senses connected with balance (equalibrioception, proprioception, graviception, and oculoception) can result in an out-of-body experience, and that the precise nature of that out-of-body experience will depend on exactly which sense is dysfunctional.^*

 

In some out-of-body experiences, the feeling of place associated with awareness occurs in two locations at once. Such a duality is a particular cause of distress to those who experience it, because the self is so closely identified with a singular feeling of place in awareness.

 

Our most intimate feeling of self, then, is a coordination of particular senses that gives place to awareness...

(* Blanke and Mohr, “Out-of-body experience, heautoscopy, and autoscopic hallucination of neurological origin Implications for neurocognitive mechanisms of corporeal awareness and self consciousness”, Brain Research Reviews, Volume 50, Issue 1, 1 December 2005, Pages 184-199.)

Edited January 20, 2022 by Mark Foote

[natural]

21 hours ago, steve said:

 

 

 

In fact, I would encourage anyone interested in the topic to really give some attention to the concept of space and how that relates to the view in any of the wisdom traditions. Space is unique in that it cannot be grasped or limited, it cannot be bounded or measure, it is indestructible yet is completely empty of any inherent substance, it has no edge or corner, no size, and no center. And yet one can say the center is anywhere and everywhere. It is no-thing 

 

Yet, while I try to sit with it for any measurable amount of time my head hurts!

[Mark Foote]

Don't take my word for it!

Be aware of where you really are 24 hours a day. You must be most attentive.

 

(“Zen Letters: the Teachings of Yuanwu”, tr. Thomas Cleary, pg 53)

 

 

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

 

(“Genjo Koan”, Dogen, trans. by Aitken and Tanahashi)

 

A sight to soothe the sore head (I hope), from Clear Lake, California:



 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Mark Foote

[doc benway]

16 hours ago, natural said:

 

Yet, while I try to sit with it for any measurable amount of time my head hurts!

 

Nobody said it would be easy…

 

[silent thunder]

People say nothing is impossible, but i do nothing regularly.