Why is nothingness/emptiness/lack of ego the desired state?

[old3bob]

Without understanding meaning,  words about nothing are empty.

Edited January 22, 2022 by old3bob

[doc benway]

They’re empty any way you slice it…

 

Regarding the headache…

They are huge volumes of teachings on the space aspect/metaphor in Bön and Buddhism, the so called longde series of teachings. So many, many words pointing to a non-conceptual, experiential meaning. Definitely better to practice than ponder too much but if the metaphor clicks with something inside, it did with me, then it can be a support, or a clue. Lots of metaphors, pith instructions, contained in another collection - the menngagde series.

[Morphius]

I hate to bring this paper up again in a different thread but it really answers your question:

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359231046_A_Brief_Overview_Comparing_the_Core_Theories_Cultivation_Practices_and_the_Interrelationships_of_Buddhism_Daoism_Brahmanism_and_Yoga

[Lairg]

"Why is nothingness/emptiness/lack of ego the desired state?"

 

This is a transitional target.

 

The standard human has an energy structure that can be depicted as the Kabbalistic Tree of Life 

 

 

This energy structure is rather isomorphic with the energy structure of the Entity that operates the galaxy.  Accordingly at higher stages of enlightenment the human can interact with that Entity and direct some galactic energies.

 

So the average human, having learned to control physical desires in most contexts, learns to control emotional energies and eventually mental energies.  This control allows the junior initiate to still the personality.  

 

Part of this stillness includes control and transmutation of what might be called the personal will.  The personal will requires the human to get its act together to protect the highest asset of the personality: self esteem.

 

When the personality and the personal will are brought under control the intelligence that operates the personal will  moves from defense to creativity.

 

At that stage the human has reached "lack of ego" and is ready to start working with cosmic energies.

[Nungali]

On 30/03/2022 at 1:09 PM, Lairg said:

"Why is nothingness/emptiness/lack of ego the desired state?"

 

This is a transitional target.

 

The standard human has an energy structure that can be depicted as the Kabbalistic Tree of Life 

 

 

This energy structure is rather isomorphic with the energy structure of the Entity that operates the galaxy.  Accordingly at higher stages of enlightenment the human can interact with that Entity and direct some galactic energies.

 

So the average human, having learned to control physical desires in most contexts, learns to control emotional energies and eventually mental energies.  This control allows the junior initiate to still the personality.  

 

Part of this stillness includes control and transmutation of what might be called the personal will.  The personal will requires the human to get its act together to protect the highest asset of the personality: self esteem.

 

When the personality and the personal will are brought under control the intelligence that operates the personal will  moves from defense to creativity.

 

At that stage the human has reached "lack of ego" and is ready to start working with cosmic energies.

 

 

" DIN "  ???  

 

Curious .    Rarely do you see that attribution to Geburah appearing on a sephiroth in a Tree of Life  diagram  ..... particularly when one is attributing it to ' The standard human has an energy structure ' .

 

How does the 'standard human energy structure' relate to 'Din'  ?

 

 

 

[Lairg]

I chose that image of the Tree for its geometry.  The cultural names are not of interest.

 

As you will know, the Tree fits on the human - and if the human is made in the image of God as well as of gods, then the Tree on the human is an antenna providing resonances with the Source of All - if the human energy centers are sufficiently refined.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Lairg

[helpfuldemon]

I've had to give in to the emptiness/nothingness.  It was forced upon me.  In order to stop the madness.  It's not terrible, whats terrible is hearing voices and hallucinating images in your mind non stop with no rest, and then having them turn evil.  I feel like I'm missing out on life, but that is how it has to be for me.  My friends get frustrated with my non action and lack of interest in things.  Everyone offers ideas of what I could do with myself but they just don't get it; I want to do nothing, even though it is boring.  I'm making peace with it now though.  

[Sherman Krebbs]

My understanding of emptiness:   The ultimate reality of the universe is different than the reality created in the mind.  The reality of the mind is the sum of the phenomenon that encompass it: sight, smell, taste, sound, touch, feelings, consciousness, etc, including the concept of self.  To grasp the ultimate reality, one must therefore form no attachments to the phenomena of the mind, including one's concept of self, because the phenomena of the mind are inherently empty and not real.  Doesn't mean, however, that one walks around like a blank-minded zombie, running into walls, or cutting of his or her arm, simply because the pain is not real. Doesn't mean that one sits under a tree with no thought, avoiding all others simply because the pleasure of human interaction is not real.  To the contrary, it means that one has to be even more mindful of such things, investigating and understanding each phenomenon with the goal of promoting a harmonious and balanced life.  Through such an investigation, one may come to understand that the concept of self created in the mind is not the real being that he or she is.  One's real being is something quite different, always looking out with no ability to look in, and can never be grasped through abstraction or self reflection.   Although to your point, such way of thinking can be boring, and writing this has made me feel thirsty; perhaps a beer is in order :  )  

 

 

[awaken]

佛陀講的空無概念已經被嚴重的扭曲了。

我舉一個生活中的例子，可能你會比較清楚。

你可能會疑惑為什麼佛經要追求空無。

但是你卻不會疑惑你家裡要乾淨。

如果你家裡充滿了垃圾蟑螂，你一定會想要清除乾淨。

同樣的我們的內在也是一樣。

我們的內在充滿了各種垃圾。

由於你看不見，所以你不認為清除這些垃圾是有必要的。

一旦你越練越深，你就會看到這些垃圾的存在。

這時候清除垃圾就會變成必要的行為。

但是如果你跟看不見自己內在垃圾的人說乾淨很重要。

他們會很疑惑，為什麼要清這些垃圾。

所以佛陀講五蘊指的就是不同層次的內在垃圾。

這些垃圾可以藉由修練去除。

不同的層次有不同的垃圾。

可以分成五層。

 

The concept of emptiness taught by the Buddha has been seriously distorted.

I will give an example from life, maybe you will be clearer.

You may wonder why the Buddhist scriptures seek emptiness.

But you will not doubt that your home should be clean.

If your home is full of trash cockroaches, you'll definitely want to get rid of them.

The same is true within us.

We are filled with all kinds of rubbish inside.

Since you can't see, you don't think it's necessary to remove this junk.

Once you practice deeper and deeper, you will see the existence of this garbage.

That's when cleaning up trash becomes a necessity.

But if you talk to people who can't see their inner garbage, it's important to be clean.

They will be very confused, why do they need to clear the garbage.

So when the Buddha talks about the five aggregates, he refers to the inner garbage at different levels.

These rubbish can be removed through practice.

Different levels have different garbage.

It can be divided into five layers.

 

為什麼大部分的人看不到自己的垃圾

即使練氣功的大師也看不到自己的垃圾

那是因為練習方法的錯誤

練氣功是一種向外地追求

而修練是一種向內的覺照

兩者方向不同

所以練習氣功的人看不到內在的垃圾

只有練習無為法的人，才能看到自己的垃圾

如果想知道無為法和氣功有甚麼差別

歡迎找我來練個幾年

我相信你就能看到自己的垃圾

還有看到自己清垃圾的過程

還有看到清垃圾過後的乾淨虛空

 

 

Why most people can't see their trash

Even qigong masters can't see their own rubbish

That's because of the wrong practice method

Practicing qigong is an outward pursuit

And practice is an inward awareness

Both directions are different

So people who practice qigong can't see the garbage inside

Only those who practice inaction can see their own rubbish

If you want to know the difference between Wuweifa and Qigong

Welcome to practice with me for a few years

I believe you can see your own trash

And see the process of cleaning your own garbage

And see the clean emptiness after clearing the garbage

Edited April 19, 2022 by awaken

[Straybird]

Desires are endless. once you fulfill one desire another arises but when you fail to fulfill a desire it makes you sad or hurts you so people look for nothingness i guess.  

[Ajay0]

On 1/5/2022 at 3:33 AM, helpfuldemon said:

I don't understand how this became to be desired.  Sure, it is peaceful and you don't cause any problems in the world, but is it really the best state to be in?  I think desire is fine, and chasing your desire is the spice of life.  Why do so many want to attain to nothingness and lack of ego?  Is life so painful?  

 

 Desire is fine if you can control and regulate them to serve your needs.  But if they are intensified into cravings and aversions, you might find yourself under their control against your will.

 

All vices like hatred, lust, greed, gluttony are just manifestations of intense desires in the form of aversions and cravings, and all crimes or errors in conduct,  are evolved from them. 

 

Also desire promises pleasure but all pleasure is followed by pain and misery in the long run, due to the factors of saturation and impermanence.

 

The peace and joy of Buddha nature or emptiness is considered superior to such fluctuations of  pleasures and pain prompted by desires.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Ajay0

[Jadespear]

On 1/19/2022 at 3:49 PM, helpfuldemon said:

I asked this question because I was hoping to hear what the benefits of sitting in nothingness/lack of ego were.  I find myself sitting in nothingness a lot, I cannot say I have no ego, but I do know that I don't get offended easily and find little interest in things.  It is kind of depressing and it was difficult to get accustomed to, but I am managing.  I assume it is more for the sake of others that we defeat our ego but I don't know.  I miss the days of desire.

 

...I think you misunderstand the point of that state within the larger context.  That state of mind is the beginning state needed to inquire further into things, or to deeply contemplate things.  Meditation is a technique, not the end result or goal.  All meditation is - is mediating the mind... so it becomes a useful tool for you, rather than a skewed arbiter of excessive, unnecessary, and at times delusional thoughts.  

...it's just another state of mind to flow into and out of throughout your life.  No one is meant to remain in it forever.  If you stay in it for too long and do nothing with yourself while in it - of course you'll lose interest in things, because your basically stopping all perception of the outside world while also not delving into the inner world.  You're like sitting in limbo, in a hypnotized state of mind.  If you do it for too long and too much like that, you'll actually erode your mental intellectual capacity because you've slowed down all that your mind does, without combining it's calmness with the internal work that nearly all authentic traditions practice.  

[helpfuldemon]

3 hours ago, Jadespear said:

 

...I think you misunderstand the point of that state within the larger context.  That state of mind is the beginning state needed to inquire further into things, or to deeply contemplate things.  Meditation is a technique, not the end result or goal.  All meditation is - is mediating the mind... so it becomes a useful tool for you, rather than a skewed arbiter of excessive, unnecessary, and at times delusional thoughts.  

...it's just another state of mind to flow into and out of throughout your life.  No one is meant to remain in it forever.  If you stay in it for too long and do nothing with yourself while in it - of course you'll lose interest in things, because your basically stopping all perception of the outside world while also not delving into the inner world.  You're like sitting in limbo, in a hypnotized state of mind.  If you do it for too long and too much like that, you'll actually erode your mental intellectual capacity because you've slowed down all that your mind does, without combining it's calmness with the internal work that nearly all authentic traditions practice.  

Yes, it is like limbo.  It's Hell.  I have to sit here with a blank mind or I feel agitated.  I hate it but I don't want to do anything else either.  I have no desires and I have no internal world, unless you count dreams.  In dreams, I do a lot of things and see a lot of things, but in life, I do and see nothing.

[Jadespear]

20 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Yes, it is like limbo.  It's Hell.  I have to sit here with a blank mind or I feel agitated.  I hate it but I don't want to do anything else either.  I have no desires and I have no internal world, unless you count dreams.  In dreams, I do a lot of things and see a lot of things, but in life, I do and see nothing.

 

...well you may want to try and change that, right?  I'd suggest forgetting it entirely for awhile and return back to day to day activities on a routine of sorts, like laundry, exercise, practicing a hobby or something, making meals, etc. 

[old3bob]

negation and affirmation both have their uses,  so types of negation often found related to Buddhism should be taken with a grain of salt imo.  (same goes for getting carried away with affirmation)

Edited November 6, 2022 by old3bob

[old3bob]

although I'd say the four-fold negation is a real gem if and when used well.

[exorcist_1699]

On 2022/1/20 at 6:46 PM, awaken said:

 

很多人將『置心一處』當作入定，以為入定就是把注意力拴在一個點上面，這完全是錯誤的，注意力拴在一個點上面的做法，完全不是佛陀的教導，完全不符合四念處，四禪的內容。

 

 

I seldom agree with Awaken because she  behaves a little  strangely on this forum  , yet  here I have to say that I agree with hers  . What she roughly says here is that no matter you hold your mind to empty it , to sing the name of Buddha , to pay attention to dantien... you attach your mind to somewhere ,  in some way...and these  are all  wrong . These all belong to  some kind of   " grinding-a-brick-to-make-it-as-a-mirror " mistake . Or to put it in a more straight way , it simply  that you can't empty your mind by  your own mind for as long as you hold or raise an attention to do so,  you are adding something , not emptying something , to it ..

Edited November 15, 2022 by exorcist_1699

[old3bob]

By Yutang Lin

 

"Teaching of "Non-form" indicates non-attachment to form.

Misinterpreted, it is adopted as holding to absence of form.

Abiding in no forms at all, one falls into the abyss of void.

Only in no grasping to form or non-form lies true liberation".

 

(so its pretty easy to go off the deep end with certain interpretation's)

[Trunk]

The dual-concept of Forward & Reverse I find pertinent to this conversation... This thread started in January, and I posted a little essay about Forward & Reverse in March.

 

Quote

 

“Forward and reverse” is a dual concept that’s applicable across (and outside of) spiritual traditions. If you tinker with it a little, I think that you’ll find it useful.

 

“Forward” basically means manifesting: self expression, complex thought, life choices, achievement, cultivation of virtues, character, psychology, life in “the world of 10,000 things”. The external path.

 

“Reverse” means unmanifesting: quieting the mind, returning to simplicity, humbling personal psychology into transpersonal quietude, merging soaking into the One Medicine (what I’ve called “spacious awareness”). The internal path.

a condition of
complete simplicity
(costing not less than
everything)
– T.S. Elliot

 

... and I blab on about it some more w/in that short essay.

 

And there's a phrase from one of the Thomas Cleary books, Practical Taoism maybe?

Quote

... "manifesting and unmanifesting at will" ...

 

That phrase stuck with me.

 

 

What do we do with our natural self expressions?

I'd suggest that considered balance is ... the healthy middle way.

[old3bob]

A take along these lines from the Isha Upanishad:

 

9-11. In dark night live those for whom
The world without alone is real; in night
Darker still, for whom the world within
Alone is real. The first leads to a life
Of action, the second to a life of meditation.
But those who combine action with meditation
Cross the sea of death through action
And enter into immortality
Through the practice of meditation.
So have we heard from the wise.

 

12-14. In dark night live those for whom the Lord
Is transcendent only; in darker still,
For whom he is immanent only.
But those for whom he is transcendent
And immanent cross the sea of death
With the immanent and enter into
Immortality with the transcendent.
So have we heard from the wise.

 

[Nintendao]

Using the mind to look at the mind, is like that thing of where, if you ever have a floater in your eye, and you want to look at it. The instinct is to move your eye toward the floater to look at it, but of course as soon as you do, the whole system moved, and the floater only moved that much farther away all over again, so you just keep chasing until it is completely out of frame. The way is empty of volition, but stay carefully aware of it in peripheral vision. Simply existing, and the floater is there, and that's all there is. Eventually you can move a little, and the floater will turn a little bit, and you can get a look at it from different angles.

 

At a higher level, if you want to become a conduit for cosmic forces, you need to have less kinks and clogs in your pipe. It's as simple as that. There are things i can put into my mind all day, but they are taking up space that could be used by things that heaven and earth have potential. Like lightning bolts connecting the sky to the ground. The thoughts and junk will act as an insulator, and inhibit that flow.