What's a mystic and how to become one?

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, terry said:

 

 

lol...

 

 

The lover seeks no escape, no freedom, seeks only to be the slave of the beloved.

 

Service is perfect freedom.

 

Beats being a slave to conditioning, to the "they" whose conventionality provides us with normality and the security of numbers. And habituates us to unsustainable living for the benefit of an oligarchic ruling class of complete idiots.

 

Ummmm .... thats not love .    (  If it was, it would be on a par with  domination and submission  'sex dynamic' which might play out in other areas .  ) -  Thats a dog  cow tailing  * to its Master .

 

*   means sucking it up to please someone else

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, terry said:

 

 

Your :facts" are all bullshit. The numbers obviously absurd. But I really don't care, you obviously want to divide people. 

 

 

 

There is nothing spiritual to be found in submission to the will of god, you say. I have defined "god's will" as what is, that is, what actually occurs in real life. Submitting to necessity. Studying the nature of reality to better serve "god's will."

 

The garden of eden is the world, god is the will of life to thrive. Adam is humanity, the servant of god whose task is to cultivate and care for the garden in accordance with god's will that life collectively thrive. 

 

How does 'Eve' fit in then ? 

 

1 hour ago, terry said:

 

What you in essence are saying is that the individual ego, the individual's personal desire to thrive at the expense of any of the rest of life and the environment, should be substituted for the individual's best efforts to do the best they can to further all of life, so that sentience might thrive in harmony and community.

 

I could cast aspersions on your favorite religions and on you personally as easily as you do. But I hate hatred.

 

 

 

" But I hate hatred. "    

 

Indeed !   The one thing that I really dont like, and I find annoying and it puts me in a bad mood and nothing really ever works properly after it and nearly everyone does it  , and its very annoying is  .....

 

 

complaining !  I hate it when people complain  ... its so annoying  .....

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, terry said:

 

 

It is  famous quote from a zen master.

 

a partial quote and in the wrong context .    Without those a snippet of ANY quote is meaningless and when used to try and justify some stupid and untenable position - worse !

 

 

 

1 hour ago, terry said:

 

You probably wouldn't like: "Eat when hungry, sleep when tired. Fools will laugh at me, but the wise will understand."

 

I just see it as another quote, out of context to try and give your unrelated comments  to that quote some type of depth .

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, terry said:

 

 

Every time you realize your spiritual pretensions are all bullshit and that you are really just like everyone else, you go back to square one, and start over.

 

I will leave that failing snake and ladders game up to you .

 

Are you suggesting study, learning , reading of texts and taking in what they say ... for years of study research and practice , have as much insight as some mouthy beginner ?

 

If you are , get on the end of the queue .... there have been hundreds of you guys come through here - you offer nothing except such desperate mouthing  with no scholarly input !

 

 

1 hour ago, terry said:

 

ventually you go back to square one and recognize it for the first time. Home. No need for progress, nowhere to go. Then beginner's mind can operate. We become three years old again. We laugh a lot, and dream of animals.

 

 

if you think  having the 'quality of a beginner's mind ' ( regarding, magic,  cultivation, Daoism,  etc . ) is laughing a lot and dreaming of animals  .....

 

look, I am just going to say   ;  ' Carry on  ..... whatever . ' 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, terry said:

 

Well it is definitely erotic. Sexual desire is the sublimated source energy of all spiritual striving.

 

"Families" are the product of sex, are totally involved in individual sexual desire.

 

They told the buddha that happiness was having a wife, and sons. The buddha told them that suffering was having a wife, and sons. Especially "tough love' which generally isn't love at all.

 

 

When sufis speak of the beloved, it is recognized that all feeling is within oneself, all love is experienced within one's self. One's own desire for love, which sufis call "longing" is the very love that we seek.

 

 

 

and now you are claiming that   when Sufis speak of the Beloved  there is no feeling of connection with anything outside the self .

 

The majorty of Sufis practice connection with the beloved as an external force illuminating the heart within  and THEN supplying the longing that was seeking that love .

 

There may be certain branches of Sufism that understand its all internal , but that would be rare and what you claimed does not count for Sufism generally at all .

 

For example, in my own Sufi initiation, the group I was with  had that 'realisation'  in  our emulation  ; Mansur  el Hallaj -   who himself was killed for such an assertion ..... but that was very radical and out the mainstream group .

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

I find this to be very accurate.  Initiation isn't for the weak or feint of heart.  It is painful and depressing and torturous.  You also have to have your Will and intention perfected, which isn't easy, can take years.  Can't be distracted by worldly things, though the world is your concern.  Once your Will and intention are perfected, they will call on you.  I don't know if it is necessary to be initiated, only that it does occur and that it is a lengthy process of moral purification and philosophical perfection.  It isn't a path to riches, and in fact, it isn't a path to fame.  It is a path to understanding.  You will probably witness many supernatural events that defy logic and science.  These teachers do not verbally instruct; they inflict madness and leave you to your own devices.  In the end, you will probably have lost everything in this pursuit, and have nothing to show for it but your own understanding, and even then there is no guarantee that you will understand, for God is vast and many layered, and His motives can be suspect.

 

 

I have personal experience and a VERY different story ... from one that ACTUALLY undertook a series of  bona fide initiations ... physically, in the real world  ( not read about them, not imagined them, not 'did it myself on myself' . not  mistook a psychotic episode for it , not made it up , not imagined it,   not etc etc

 

and my experience has been entirely different ! In fact, I could nearly list the opposite of what you say . 

I got verbally instructed ( and in other ways ), they didnt inflict madness, I gained, I didnt 'loose everything ' , I have a LOT to show, on many levels .

 

Some people here  ( that tried to short cut learnings and paths, or have other 'problems' ) are like someone that bought an old bomb car from a shady car yard, , they didnt do research, they didnt check it out first, they dont know about cars or mechanics or how to check it out  . They had a lot of trouble with that car , it kept breaking down and stranding them. Now they are advising us in their 'wisdom' ;

 

" Dont buy a car , any type of car . They are trouble. And the guys that sell them will rip you off ... all of them ! And cars dont get you where you need to go , I am still stuck on the side of the road after mine failed ... I been camped out here by the freeway for 10 years now ... hurling abuse at all the cars and people that wizz by ....... thinking they are going somewhere ...  But they aren't, I tells ya ! They aren't !

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Nungali

[helpfuldemon]

28 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

I have personal experience and a VERY different story ... from one that ACTUALLY undertook a series of  bonafide intiiations ... hysically, in the real world  ( not read about them, not imagined them, not 'did it myself on myself' . not  mistook a psychotic episode ofr it , not made it up , not imagined it  not etc etc

 

and my experience has been entirely different ! In fact, I could nearly list the opposite of what you say . 

I got verbally instructed ( and in other ways ), they didnt inflict madness, I gained, I didnt 'loose everything ' , I have a LOT to show, on many levels .

 

Some people here  ( that tried to short cut learnings and paths, or have other 'problems' ) are like someone that bought an old bomb car from a shady car yard, they didnt do research, they didnt check it out first, they dont know about cars or mechanics or how to check it out  . They had a lot of trouble with that car , it kept breaking down and stranding them. Now they are advising us in their 'wisdom' ;

 

" Dont buy a car , any tye of car . They are trouble. Abd the guys that sell them will rip you off ... all of them ! And cars dont get you where you need to go , I am still stuck on the side of the road after mine failed ... I been camped out here by the freeway for 10 years now ... hurling abuse at all the cars and people that wizz by ....... thinking they are going somewhere ...  But they aren't, I tells ya ! They aren't !

 

 

 

Worldly initiations aren't the same thing as Divine ones.  Sorry, but you weren't chosen.

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Worldly initiations aren't the same thing as Divine ones.  Sorry, but you weren't chosen.

 

I see .... you where 'chosen' specially for your 'divine initiation'  . 

 

I am sure they are not the same as wordy ones. Wordy ones have this  .........   objective validity .... if you know what I mean ?     

 

And if you think 'worldly' initiations are not necessary FIRST, boy do you have problems coming fast !

 

The proper sequence - across the board   [and by that I mean I have experience and knowledge in various cultures across time history and location regrading initiations - in my specialist area of cultural anthropology-  not just A system , and certainly not a 'system' that involves only oneself and some  'divine' process  experienced  ( and that you experience and now give some validity too , even though your adventures here started and continued the way they did  - that is confessing psychosis, mental health treatment, depression, psychic tortures, all offered up info from yourself)  ]  is a worldly level   nearly all ;  three degree system relating to worldly mysteries in the sequence of birth life death . If you miss that, well ... simply ... disastrous , and even moreso to attempt to build on top of this non foundation with higher practices ! )The next series is not worldly, as it relates to the after death worlds and experiences .

 

I dont think you know much about initiation. I am sure you had an experience ... and you have clearly outlined it ... its a psychotic experience  and the thing is .... its a fine line ... many people who are clearly psychotic, even to you  yourself, will show indicators relating to the fantastic, occult magic, etc .

 

It is fairly clear to the reasonable outsider though who is confused and who is .... less confused    .

 

And also, if you think anyone gets through the doors to actually achieve a REAL initiation  and it wasn't an invitation and a choosing , you  have not a clue what you are taking about - all initiation candidates have been 'chosen', it doesnt happen otherwise .

 

And if you are not 'chosen'  no matter what you and others do on any plane ... it doesnt happen . 

 

One of the values if undertaking proper magical training is it has very clear warnings abut  and  essential practices to help protect people from these confusions .   of course, without them one can easily tip over the edge ... but everyone knows that !

 

Would you fix your house electricity by fiddling with the wires without an electricians advice or knowledge ?  

 

Again, you are like the guy that bought that car that broke down .  And telling me you are sorry that I was not chosen for my initiations isnt going to change any of that , and neither does it address any of the points in my post that you used for that response .

 

Perhaps you should stay within the range of those  alternating diatribes of acceptance and outrage against this psuedo Christian type childhood monster God you say is torturing you  and stop trying to pretend you have some special insight ( due to your psychotic experience ) regarding this subject .... which you clearly dont have .

 

You type of guys come through here all the time ... over the years .

 

I even know what you are going to try on next  .    

 

 

[terry]

On 8/20/2022 at 12:09 PM, mcoolio said:

Every time you realize your spiritual pretensions are all bullshit and that you are really just like everyone else, you go back to square one, and start over. Eventually you go back to square one and recognize it for the first time. Home. No need for books, nothing to read. Then beginner's mind can operate. We become three years old again. We laugh a lot, and dream of animals.

 

 

Don't even know how to read. Three years old.

 

Tell me a story...

[terry]

On 8/20/2022 at 12:13 PM, helpfuldemon said:

I find this to be very accurate.  Initiation isn't for the weak or feint of heart.  It is painful and depressing and torturous.  You also have to have your Will and intention perfected, which isn't easy, can take years.  Can't be distracted by worldly things, though the world is your concern.  Once your Will and intention are perfected, they will call on you.  I don't know if it is necessary to be initiated, only that it does occur and that it is a lengthy process of moral purification and philosophical perfection.  It isn't a path to riches, and in fact, it isn't a path to fame.  It is a path to understanding.  You will probably witness many supernatural events that defy logic and science.  These teachers do not verbally instruct; they inflict madness and leave you to your own devices.  In the end, you will probably have lost everything in this pursuit, and have nothing to show for it but your own understanding, and even then there is no guarantee that you will understand, for God is vast and many layered, and His motives can be suspect.

 

 

I'd have to be crabby to disagree.

 

[terry]

On 8/20/2022 at 12:30 PM, mcoolio said:

 

You making fun of us? Nothing wrong with being a bunch of crabs! And no solitary escape attempts! We will pull you back in the bucket with the rest of us!

 

If I don't pull you out.

[terry]

On 8/20/2022 at 12:37 PM, Nungali said:

 

Ummmm .... thats not love .    (  If it was, it would be on a par with  domination and submission  'sex dynamic' which might play out in other areas .  ) -  Thats a dog  cow tailing  * to its Master .

 

*   means sucking it up to please someone else

 

 

I was thinking of a dog and its master.

 

My dog licks my face and brings me her ball to play fetch. Our relationship is one of love and companionship between beings who have great respect for each other. We share an enthusiasm for life.

 

[terry]

On 8/20/2022 at 12:42 PM, Nungali said:

 

How does 'Eve' fit in then ? 

 

 

 

   So god tells adam and eve not to eat of the tree of  knowledge because the fruit will kill them. The snake waits until god has his back turned, and tells adam and eve "god lied to you." He told them the fruit would not kill them, but make them like god, and that god didn't want them to be like him so he made the fruit forbidden. Adam knew that the snake spoke true, that god had lied, and was confused. So he ate of the tree. God confronted him, "why did you disobey me." This is where eve comes in. Adam says, "she made me do it." Eve says, "It wasn't me, it was the snake's fault." And ever since people have hate snakes.

[Nungali]

25 minutes ago, terry said:

 

Don't even know how to read. Three years old.

 

Tell me a story...

 

Once upon a time there was this little boy called Terry . He didnt know it yet, but a monster lived under his bed ... and late at night when he was asleep  and helpless , the monster  .......

[terry]

On 8/20/2022 at 12:51 PM, Nungali said:

 

a partial quote and in the wrong context .    Without those a snippet of ANY quote is meaningless and when used to try and justify some stupid and untenable position - worse !

 

 

 

 

I just see it as another quote, out of context to try and give your unrelated comments  to that quote some type of depth .

 

 

 

 

 

I will leave that failing snake and ladders game up to you .

 

Are you suggesting study, learning , reading of texts and taking in what they say ... for years of study research and practice , have as much insight as some mouthy beginner ?

 

If you are , get on the end of the queue .... there have been hundreds of you guys come through here - you offer nothing except such desperate mouthing  with no scholarly input !

 

 

 

if you think  having the 'quality of a beginner's mind ' ( regarding, magic,  cultivation, Daoism,  etc . ) is laughing a lot and dreaming of animals  .....

 

look, I am just going to say   ;  ' Carry on  ..... whatever . ' 

 

 

I suggest that no one is any sort of authority.

 

If you meet the buddha, kill the buddha. If you meet the patriarchs, kill the patriarchs. If you meet your parents, kill your parents.

 

Laughing a lot is important. Serious. Really. (lol)

 

 

 

[terry]

On 8/20/2022 at 1:03 PM, Nungali said:

 

 

 

and now you are claiming that   when Sufis speak of the Beloved  there is no feeling of connection with anything outside the self .

 

The majorty of Sufis practice connection with the beloved as an external force illuminating the heart within  and THEN supplying the longing that was seeking that love .

 

There may be certain branches of Sufism that understand its all internal , but that would be rare and what you claimed does not count for Sufism generally at all .

 

For example, in my own Sufi initiation, the group I was with  had that 'realisation'  in  our emulation  ; Mansur  el Hallaj -   who himself was killed for such an assertion ..... but that was very radical and out the mainstream group .

 

 

There is nothing outside of the self, an assertion central to the work of ibn arabi, the quintessential sufi.

 

let me repeat this:

 

and now you are claiming that   when Sufis speak of the Beloved  there is no feeling of connection with anything outside the self .

 

yes indeed...any sufi worth his salt would have to agree... the self is subsumed in god...god alone is real...

 

I could quote authorities but then I would be giving in to your bias...

 

 

 

[Nungali]

6 minutes ago, terry said:

 

 

   So god tells adam and eve not to eat of the tree of  knowledge because the fruit will kill them. The snake waits until god has his back turned, and tells adam and eve "god lied to you." He told them the fruit would not kill them, but make them like god, and that god didn't want them to be like him so he made the fruit forbidden. Adam knew that the snake spoke true, that god had lied, and was confused. So he ate of the tree. God confronted him, "why did you disobey me." This is where eve comes in. Adam says, "she made me do it." Eve says, "It wasn't me, it was the snake's fault." And ever since people have hate snakes.

 

.... and women .

 

You left that bit out .  But it was nice to see the woman left out of the first part of the story , where she is tempted and gives in, where she eats the apple first and where she 'makes' Adam eat it .   And then Adam merely 'confesses the truth '  - she told me to '    

 

One of my 'fav' bits  from Ovid , Metamorphoses :  Apollo's raven reports he  has seen his GF with another , 'beautiful' Apollo, in jealous rage lets fly an arrow at her , which kills her ; he then curses her  for it , blames the arrow, the bow , the raven ... everything but himself ... if there was a snake there , he would have got blamed to .

[Nungali]

8 minutes ago, terry said:

 

 

I suggest that no one is any sort of authority.

 

If you meet the buddha, kill the buddha. If you meet the patriarchs, kill the patriarchs. If you meet your parents, kill your parents.

 

Laughing a lot is important. Serious. Really. (lol)

 

 

 

 

Okay ... I will laugh as I murder my own parents .

 

Thanks for the spiritual advice ! 

[terry]

23 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

I have personal experience and a VERY different story ... from one that ACTUALLY undertook a series of  bona fide initiations ... physically, in the real world  ( not read about them, not imagined them, not 'did it myself on myself' . not  mistook a psychotic episode for it , not made it up , not imagined it,   not etc etc

 

and my experience has been entirely different ! In fact, I could nearly list the opposite of what you say . 

I got verbally instructed ( and in other ways ), they didnt inflict madness, I gained, I didnt 'loose everything ' , I have a LOT to show, on many levels .

 

Some people here  ( that tried to short cut learnings and paths, or have other 'problems' ) are like someone that bought an old bomb car from a shady car yard, , they didnt do research, they didnt check it out first, they dont know about cars or mechanics or how to check it out  . They had a lot of trouble with that car , it kept breaking down and stranding them. Now they are advising us in their 'wisdom' ;

 

 

   I took acid like 500 times, or maybe 1000, does that count?

 

 

[Nungali]

5 minutes ago, terry said:

 

 

There is nothing outside of the self, an assertion central to the work of ibn arabi, the quintessential sufi.

 

let me repeat this:

 

and now you are claiming that   when Sufis speak of the Beloved  there is no feeling of connection with anything outside the self .

 

yes indeed...any sufi worth his salt would have to agree... the self is subsumed in god...god alone is real...

 

I could quote authorities but then I would be giving in to your bias...

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, its best here on Daobums NOT to quote any authority ... we dont like that here ... we seem to prefer the lone postulations of nut , random connections and antiacadamia  

[terry]

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Would you fix your house electricity by fiddling with the wires without an electricians advice or knowledge ?  

 

 

 

 

Would you ask an expert how to laugh, or cry, or make love? If you were given detailed instructions, would they help?

 

You can give a plant water, sun, manure and space, but it grows all by itself.

[Nungali]

3 minutes ago, terry said:

 

 

   I took acid like 500 times, or maybe 1000, does that count?

 

 

 

 

'That'  count  ?   Nah .

 

It looks like you counted it  ... or tried to ... with a  potential 100% error      . 

 

You should keep better records.    I kept track of how many acid trips I had by putting a mark on the door jamb . If you look at my door jamb (back door, on the inside ) you will see a series of gnaw marks going from the floor up .

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, terry said:

 

 

Would you ask an expert how to laugh, or cry, or make love? If you were given detailed instructions, would they help?

 

You can give a plant water, sun, manure and space, but it grows all by itself.

 

It might even grow if you or any other person doesnt do those things  .... beep beep !

 

It helps to try and understand the context a reply was written in , separating it out from what it was responding to and then responding to that itself , without the relevant content is  ......

 

 

..  what daobums be all about

 

... wheeeeeeeeeeeeee    ....

[terry]

22 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Once upon a time there was this little boy called Terry . He didnt know it yet, but a monster lived under his bed ... and late at night when he was asleep  and helpless , the monster  .......

too right bra

 

 

Put Your Lights On
Santana

Hey now all you sinners
Put your lights on
Put your lights on
Hey now all you lovers
Put your lights on
Put your lights on

Hey now all you killers
Put your lights on
Put your lights on
Hey now all you children
Leave your lights on
Better leave your lights on

'Cause there's a monster living under my bed
Whispering in my ear
There's an angel with a hand on my head
She says I've got nothing to fear

There's a darkness really deep in my soul
I still got a purpose to serve
So let your lights shine
Deep into my home
God don't let me lose my nerve
Don't let me lose my nerve

Hey now, hey now, hey now
Wo-oh hey now, hey now
Hey now, hey now, hey now, hey now

Hey now all you sinners
Put your lights on
Put your lights on
Hey now, all you children
Leave your lights on
You better leave your lights on

Because there's a monster living under my bed
Whispering in my ear
There's an angel with a hand on my head
She says I've got nothing to fear
She says la ilaha ilallah hey la la
You shine like stars
la ilaha ilallah hey la la
You shine like stars
And fade away

[terry]

24 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Okay ... I will laugh as I murder my own parents .

 

Thanks for the spiritual advice ! 

 

well at least you'll show some sense of humor...

 

lol

[terry]

21 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Yes, its best here on Daobums NOT to quote any authority ... we dont like that here ... we seem to prefer the lone postulations of nut , random connections and antiacadamia  

 

I'm the quotingest quoter you ever saw...

 

I'm just warming up

 

but I don't quote them as authorities

 

 

it has to do with the nature of freedom...

you don't make people free by getting them to follow...

you can't set them free when they are free already...

and people hate to be woken up...

 

we're left with jokes and stories...

 

to share...