What's a mystic and how to become one?

[Nungali]

Learning how to learn is essential .  Most think we just do it naturally and we do ... to an extent .

 

But for a lot of us it is ; 'in one ear and out the other '   .... make the same mistake over and over again  ....... refuse to follow advice  that we know is good  , due to endless reasons and excuses .... and so on .  Some have that worse than others .

 

Some learn quickly .

 

How shall we tame the beast that is Man ?    The most effective methods , we can apply to ourselves  , but we should not  apply them to others . . . .    unless it is requested .

 

-  My first few months of sword training  ( they are wooden )

 

" Tuck your elbow in  ..... tuck your elbow in .... "  constantly ! Very annoying  !  

 

" Tuck your elbow in our you will take a hit . "

 

Me; "  Just do it then ! "

 

A minute later ... whack , crack ! ....  OMG !   Oww owww owwie ouch ... rub rub ..... rest .   Start again ....

 

Teacher :  "  Oh look,  elbow in, good form !  "      I dont  do  that any more.    

 

Also I am a LOT more aware of  what my other hand is doing when splitting firewood kindling  ... after I chopped the end of my thumb off !

 

- So we have to not only learn how to learn but learn what is the best approach , what specific type of 'how' to learn, depending on the situation . 

 

- One cant go walking around with a wooden sword or a hatchet in hand  .... just in case someone 'needs a lesson '      

 

 

 

Another issue is  ( and this drives me nuts at martial arts training as the instructor has not a clue about it ,,,, even though I have talked to him about his problem , and that is ;

 

Different types of people have different optimum learning styles and levels .

 

And because a Sufi mediation  suggests we try to look at things, exlain things, know things  in 7 different ways  ( )  I will offer the following 

 

- look away now if not interested - 

 

( private joke    )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• visual.
• kinaesthetic.
• aural.
• social.
• solitary.
• verbal.
• logical.

The 'great teachers' knew that to really learn something ... for it to 'get in' .... retain .... effect and change consciousness , thus actions  was, if the person is receptive , to combine as many 'learning styles ' as possible . Thats why initiation ceremony and ritual  has these aspects in it ;  verbal instructions, movement dynamics and 'ritual drama' ,  song / chant ,  visuals  ( decorations,  'tracing boards '  mandalas)  movements /  circumnambulations ,  and all should point towards the one end  and focus .

[terry]

AJAHN CHAH

 

"Only one book is worth reading, the heart."

 

"We don't meditate to see heaven, but to end suffering."

 

"A visiting Zen student asked Ajahn Chah, How old are you? Do you live here all year round? I live nowhere, he replied. There is no place you can find me. I have no age. To have age, you must exist, and to think you exist is already a problem. Don't make problems, then the world has none either. Don't make a self. There's nothing more to say."

 

"Why are we born? We are born so that we will not have to be born again."

 

"If you want to wait around to meet the future Buddha, then just don't practice (the Dhamma). You'll probably be around long enough to see him when he comes."

"Whatever we do, we should see ourselves. Reading books doesn't ever give rise to anything. The days pass by, but we don't see ourselves. Knowing about practice is practising in order to know."

 

"Remember you dont meditate to get anything, but to get rid of things. We do it, not with desire, but with letting go. If you want anything, you wont find it."

 

"Looking for peace is like looking for a turtle with moustache. You won't be able to find it. But when your heart is ready, peace will come looking for you."

 

"Do not be a bodhisattva, do not be an arahant, do not be anything at all. If you are a bodhisattva, you will suffer, if you are an arahant, you will suffer, if you are anything at all, you will suffer."

 

"You are your own teacher. Looking for teachers can't solve your own doubts. Investigate yourself to find the truth - inside, not outside. Knowing yourself is most important."

 

"Outward scriptural study is not important. Of course, the Dhamma books are correct, but they are not right. They cannot give you right understanding. To see the word anger in print is not the same as experiencing anger. Only experiencing yourself can give you the true faith."

 

"These days people don't search for the Truth. People study simply in order to find knowledge necessary to make a living, raise families and look after themselves, that's all. To them, being smart is more important than being wise!"

 

"Once a visitor asked Ajahn Chah if he was an arahant. He said, I am like a tree in a forest. Birds come to the tree, they sit on its branches and eat its fruits. To the birds, the fruit may be sweet or sour or whatever. The birds say sweet or they say sour, but from the trees point of view, this is just the chattering of birds."

 

"Someone commented, I can observe desire and aversion in my mind, but its hard to observe delusion. You're riding on a horse and asking where the horse is! was Ajahn Chah's reply."

 

"If it isn't good, let it die. If it doesn't die, make it good."

 

"Try to be mindful, and let things take their natural course. Then your mind will become still in any surroundings, like a clear forest pool. All kinds of wonderful, rare animals will come to drink at the pool, and you will clearly see the nature of all things. You will see many strange and wonderful things come and go, but you will be still. This is the happiness of the Buddha."

 

"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment, the effort to overcome laziness and merit, the effort to make each activity of our day meditation."

 

"Just know yourself, this is your witness. Don't make decisions on the strength of your desires. Desires can puff us up into thinking we are something which we're not. We must be very circumspect."

"But this is like some sort of sweet fruit: even though the fruit is sweet we must rely on contact with and experience of that fruit before we will know what the taste is like. Now that fruit, even though no-one tastes it, is sweet all the same. But nobody knows of it. The Dhamma of the Buddha is like this. Even though it's the truth it isn't true for those who don't really know it. No matter how excellent or fine it may be it is worthless to them."

[SilentHand]

On 20/08/2022 at 10:33 PM, terry said:

Your :facts" are all bullshit. The numbers obviously absurd. But I really don't care, you obviously want to divide people.

Islamic apologism and lies will not work, my numbers are in fact under estimated, because we have not counted the other millions of killings and deaths brought about to the world by the "religion of peace" (in those regions alone).
 

Quote

 

There is nothing spiritual to be found in submission to the will of god, you say. I have defined "god's will" as what is, that is, what actually occurs in real life. Submitting to necessity. Studying the nature of reality to better serve "god's will."

 

The garden of eden is the world, god is the will of life to thrive. Adam is humanity, the servant of god whose task is to cultivate and care for the garden in accordance with god's will that life collectively thrive. 

 

What you in essence are saying is that the individual ego, the individual's personal desire to thrive at the expense of any of the rest of life and the environment, should be substituted for the individual's best efforts to do the best they can to further all of life, so that sentience might thrive in harmony and community.

 

I could cast aspersions on your favorite religions and on you personally as easily as you do. But I hate hatred.

 

Stop with the Islamic plagiarised pseudo spirituality and garbage, the same Koranic texts proscribe pederasty, deceiving those who are not in the Ummah and unrestrained violence against others, so much to "submission to God", no thanks...

 

Like I said Mohammed was a fraud and there is nothing spiritual to be found in Islam, it is but a death cult of conquest nothing more, a plague on humanity.

Edited October 5, 2022 by SilentHand
Grammar

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, SilentHand said:

Islamic apologism and lies will not work, my numbers are in fact under estimated, because we have not counted the other millions of killings and deaths brought about to the world by the "religion of peace" (in those regions alone).
 

Stop with the Islamic plagiarised pseudo spirituality and garbage, the same Koranic texts proscribe pederasty, deceiving those who are not in the Ummah and unrestrained violence against others, so much to "submission to God", no thanks...

 

Like I said Mohammed was a fraud and there is nothing spiritual to be found in Islam, it is but a death cult of conquest nothing more, a plague on humanity.

Thankfully young educated muslims are themselves starting to question Islam:

Why are young Muslims leaving Islam 

A new generation of educated Muslims is starting to question the fundamentals of their faith

 

https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/why-are-young-muslims-leaving-islam/cid/1704203

[terry]

9 hours ago, SilentHand said:

 

Like I said Mohammed was a fraud and there is nothing spiritual to be found in Islam, it is but a death cult of conquest nothing more, a plague on humanity.

 

 

 

 

 

lol...

 

and god didn't make little green apples

and it don't rain in indianapolis

in the summertime

 

 

 

I've already posted more than enough proof of the absurdity of your remarks, which are about equivalent to saying the clinton's order babies like pizza to have sex with and eat...

 

 

 

 

[terry]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

Thankfully young educated muslims are themselves starting to question Islam:

Why are young Muslims leaving Islam 

A new generation of educated Muslims is starting to question the fundamentals of their faith

 

https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/why-are-young-muslims-leaving-islam/cid/1704203

 

 

 

wake me when young westerners start leaving capitalism...

[terry]

promoting islam is a real contribution to becoming a mystic

while trashing islam has no positive value in any context...

[terry]

from the discourses of rumi:

 

 

Someone asked: “Is there any way nearer to God than prayer?”

Rumi answered: Yes, but it is also prayer. It is prayer without the outward form. This outer form of prayer is the body of prayer, since it has a beginning and ending. Everything that has a beginning and ending is a body. All words and sounds have a beginning and an end, and therefore are form and body. But the inner soul of prayer is unconditioned and infinite, and has neither beginning nor end.
Now, Mohammed, who invented the Muslim prayer, said, “I have a time with God not contained by any prophet, nor limited by any angel next to God.” Hence we realize that the soul of prayer is not the outer form alone. Rather it is a complete absorption, a state without room for these outward forms. Gabriel himself, who is pure reality, cannot be found therein.
 

[terry]

I was thinking of posting again to this wanna be a mystic thread anyway and now that I have been encouraged by dialog, perhaps I will proceed…though anything I say could be posted on any thread…

thinking about being a solitary, and the silence of meditation and the noise of the monkey mind…

 

and the nature of light…

 

 

 

As moderns we have learned to imagine that we see things objectively, scientifically. Light then is regarded as photons bouncing off of things and hitting our retinas, forming a camera-like impression on our brain matter somewheres. Merleau-ponty proves these notions false (in the phenomenology of perception). What we actually perceive is always context driven and not an object in itself. All objects are actually being-in-the-world. All impressions are gestalts in which an object occupies the forefront of our attention while its background is attenuated. Thus all perception both reveals and conceals as a foreground opens up and  a background is disregarded.

Actually, our notions of light vastly preceded any knowledge of photons and retinas. The scientistic overview is the current religion, the current mythology. The universe = god, the totality. Naive realism and neo-kantian positivism uphold capitalism and so are peddled and bought; as marx says, culture follows the means of production. Ideologies crystallize when status quos are being maintained.

 

What did we mean by “light” before photons were invented and enforced as dogma (pesky little wavicles)? The ancients (pythagoras, plato) thought the eyes emitted rays that illuminated objects in the presence of sunlight. This is actually closer to the phenomenological view than the scientific mechanistic way of seeing. The mind definitely adds value to mechanistic perception. We demonstrably don’t see like a camera but recognize objects in context. We hear a dog bark or a cock crow, we don’t hear a noise which we then interpret.

 

The nature of perception is to perceive in light, but then what is light, what is the perceiving medium?

 

We immediately use the metaphor of light and seeing for knowing and understanding, and these meanings are originary.  Seeing is believing, seeing is knowing and these ideas were originally part of the idea of seeing. We see with our minds, with our hearts the ancients would say. With our heart minds.

 

The light of the mind is dialog, discussion. With words we illuminate, and with words we communicate, the two are one. We talk to others and so fix the world as a place in which actions occur, a context. We talk to ourselves and this is what we think of as knowing, as existence.

 

What we have named, we know, if only superficially and often falsely. We are comfortable with the known and fear the unknown, so we are always naming things. Or having them named for us because we fear the freedom of naming things for ourselves. 

 

The meditator seeks silence and in doing so confronts “monkey mind,” the tendency of the mind to think constantly, naming all its perceptions and anxieties in the ongoing quest to maintain homeostasis. That is, a comfort zone where immediate dangers are all identified and handled. Through attempting to quiet the monkey mind we come to realize its constancy and pervasiveness.

 

The inner dialog of assimilation is similar to the outer dialog of socialization. Through constant dialog we understand the world and our place within it. We see and are seen, we are subject and we are object. Caught in this dualism, we really don’t know who we are and are subject to anxiety and a constant temptation to inauthenticity. Like all organisms we seek balance, homeostasis; consequently we always feel out of balance: always biased, always skewed. False elation, false depression, all based on delusion and confusion.

 

The meditator - the mystic - may find silence, or silence may find her. The dialog is cut off and we become a solitary. We are in darkness, the cloud of unknowing, the void of meaning. The light of true wisdom, of prajna which does not differentiate or separate; for whom all is one and nothing else. This, alone, is true ease. The tao te ching refers to the perfect state of a baby who has not yet learned to smile. The gospel of thomas:

 

(4) Jesus said, "A person advanced in days will not hesitate to question a little child seven days old about the place of life. And that person will live. For many that are first will be last, and they will become one."

 

The silent is the solitary. Everyone is in dialog all the time, and is never alone, is afraid of being alone. People turn on the tv or radio for the illusion of company, for the creation of context and background to perform their lives.

 

The mystic knows silence. The dialogger is never at rest, never at peace, always in conflict, bucket o’ crabs. The sufferer usually calls their suffering, “love.” 

 

Skillful means uses dialog to end dialog, uses words as word medicine to end words and make silence. Thus it is said in zen that the buddha spoke sermons for 49 years and never said a word.

[terry]

“All beings have their properties which spread
Beyond themselves, a power by which they make
Some other beings conscious of their life —
Spirit that knows no insulated spot,
No chasm, no solitude. From link to link
It circulates, the soul of all the worlds.
This is the freedom of the universe, 
Unfolded still the more, more visible
The more we know—and yet is reverenced least,
And least respected, in the human mind,
Its most apparent home."

 

William Wordsworth, 1798

[terry]

from 
Esoteric Dimensions of Deep Ecology
by Paul Davies

 

When the language of direct description—one label for one thing—opens out into the ‘wild country’ of metaphor, then the established mode of thinking, relating and discoursing is rendered useless. What takes its place is a system of analogical or imaginal knowledge, initially seen as madness by habitués of direct description. The anthropologist Richard Nelson writes of the Navajo:

 

"Among the instructions given to hunters is this statement attributed to the divine Deer-people: ‘Animals are our food. They are our thoughts.’ Reading this statement is like walking through a doorway into a wild and illimitable terrain: it opens in all directions. These few words epitomize the pervasiveness of animals—and the natural world as a whole—in the cultures of hunting-gathering peoples."

 

They also epitomize a world in which metaphor is the ‘natural form’ of human expression. An ecology of symbolic practice directly negotiates these bewildering borderlands of expression and establishes a working relationship between specifically metaphorical, poetic language use and the languages of history, science and economics.

 

The implicit homology between disciplines here shows that a practical science, an arcane mystery tradition, and a form of artistic practice all conform very closely at the structural level. It is therefore no surprise to find the mystics calling the cosmos the poem of the Absolute, to find Gaia-theorists speaking of the dance of life, and poets talking about the oneness of life being observable only through metaphor, the ‘perception of resemblances’.

[terry]

meister eckhart:

 

"As I was coming here today I considered how to preach to you clearly so that you would understand me properly, and I hit upon an analogy. If you can understand it, you will be able to grasp my meaning and get to the bottom of all that I have ever preached about. The analogy is with my eye and wood. When my eye is open it is an eye: when it is shut it is the same eye; and the wood is neither more nor less by reason of my seeing it. Now mark me well: Suppose my eye, being one and single in itself, falls on the wood with vision, then though each thing stays as it is, yet in the very act of seeing they are so much at one that we can really say ‘eye-wood’, and the wood is my eye. Now, if the wood were free from matter and wholly immaterial like my eyesight is, then we could truly say that, in the act of seeing, the wood and my eye were of one essence. If this is true for material things, it is all the more true of spiritual. (II:103-4) "

[Bindi]

On 6/10/2022 at 11:06 AM, terry said:

promoting islam is a real contribution to becoming a mystic

while trashing islam has no positive value in any context...

Islam seems more likely to create morality police (see Iran) and killing machines (eg. Islamic State) than mystics. Admittedly Sufism as a mystical sect of Islam has developed something beautiful in their interpretation of Islam, but from what I’ve read Sufis are barely tolerated by muslims. I’ve seen inclusive religious statements from the West readily refer to Sufism as positive, but rarely Islam. Yes all Sufis are Muslim, but most certainly not all Muslims are Sufi. Islamic State goes so far as to see Sufis as heretics and tries to destroy them. 
 

https://www.smh.com.au/world/to-the-world-they-are-muslims-to-islamic-state-sufis-are-heretics-20171126-gzsytx.html

 

I would more easily agree with your statement above if you switched Islam to Sufism. 

[terry]

On 10/11/2022 at 11:34 PM, Bindi said:

Islam seems more likely to create morality police (see Iran) and killing machines (eg. Islamic State) than mystics. Admittedly Sufism as a mystical sect of Islam has developed something beautiful in their interpretation of Islam, but from what I’ve read Sufis are barely tolerated by muslims. I’ve seen inclusive religious statements from the West readily refer to Sufism as positive, but rarely Islam. Yes all Sufis are Muslim, but most certainly not all Muslims are Sufi. Islamic State goes so far as to see Sufis as heretics and tries to destroy them. 
 

https://www.smh.com.au/world/to-the-world-they-are-muslims-to-islamic-state-sufis-are-heretics-20171126-gzsytx.html

 

I would more easily agree with your statement above if you switched Islam to Sufism. 

 

 

   I truly believe islam needs no defense, and that her detractors are simply ignorant bigots.

 

  Yes there are many millions of muslims and a relative handful of sufis. On the other hand, probably most mystics by sheer quantity are sufis, and most mysticism is sufi inspired, from buddhist to hindu to christian. And sufis are muslims at root, or they aren't sufis.

 

   The two worst abusers of religion on the planet are the saudi princes and the ayatollahs. Imagine if evangelical christians ran western countries. Truth is westerners are estranged from religion and less vulnerable to clerics.

 

   Anyone who knows muslims knows that they are not only good people, their societies are more attuned to god and goodness generally than ours, despite much greater challenges. Christianity is morally and spiritually bankrupt, and islam lives largely in the hearts of hundreds of millions of muslims.

 

   There is no merit in this sort of discussion. 

 

 

Disappointing that people can abide countenancing such corrupt opinions. Shameful, really. You must never have actually met an ordinary muslim before, and yet still have really shitty ideas about them. Media conditioning I guess, and western or eastern arrogance and racism.

 

 

I'd offer more sublimities from the treasure trove of islam but you'd probably gnash them between your hooves.

[terry]

Think for a second how many ordinary muslims are casting off their hijabs in protest in iran and how few morality police actually doing the terrorizing.

 

In the name of god, the merciful, the compassionate.

[terry]

Sufis are not all entirely spiritual and admirable, some are even terrorists, as in chechnya, and the moscow theater takeoverand hostage murders involved sufis. Sufi organizations are subject to decay and loss of focus. Whatever has form changes. Names are labels that conceal as much as they reveal.

 

Sufis are choosy and exclusive, islam is not. Many of muhammed's first followers were poor, weak and servants and slaves. Sufis tend to choose fit young men of "character." Not so ,much a school for boys as zen but still.

 

Associating islam with terrorism is pure propaganda. Amerika will strike a wedding party with a hellfire missile and kill dozens to kill one "terrorist" (journalist or preacher most likely). American military doctrine said that if a building was occupied by 46 innocents and one militant, 47 people were going to die. In the iraq "war," 200,000 iraqis were killed and 147 americans. Afghanistan turned the taliban from condemning ooppy production to maintaining it. Stable regimes in libya and iraq were destabilized permanently and the "islamic state" resulted. Israel is a corrupt rightist apartheid society whose obvious racism is tolerated by the west even though they have no oil because the victim is islam. The chinese murder and rape uighurs in concentration camps on a mass scale. Many millions of muslims are victims of climate change resulting from godless materialism, that is, capitalism. It is always convenient to blame the victim, it helps maintain the status quo. Latter day crusades.

 

What saves them is faith, and numbers. May god bless and keep all lovers of god.

[terry]

The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus –  
(Mystery of the Ether & Gnosis of All) 

trans sir isaac newton

    1. Tis true without error, certain & most true.

    2. That which is below is like that which is above & that which is above is like that which is below to do the miracles of one only thing.

    3. And as all things have been & arose from one by the mediation of one: so all things have their birth from this one thing by adaptation.

    4. The Sun is its father, the moon its mother, the wind hath carried it in its belly, the earth is its nurse.

    5. The father of all perfection in the whole world is here.

    6. Its force or power is entire if it be converted into earth.

    7. Separate thou the earth from the fire, the subtle from the gross sweetly with great industry.

    8. It ascends from the earth to the heaven & again it descends to the earth & receives the force of things superior & inferior.

    9. By this means you shall have the glory of the whole world

  10. & thereby all obscurity shall fly from you.

  11. Its force is above all force. For it vanquishes every subtle thing & penetrates every solid thing.

  12. So was the world created.

  13. From this are & do come admirable adaptations whereof the means (or process) is here in this. Hence I am called Hermes Trismegist, having the three parts of the philosophy of the whole world.

  14. That which I have said of the operation of the Sun is accomplished & ended.

[terry]

the opening words of the Poemandres, the first text of the Corpus Hermeticum:

 

 

Upon a time while my mind was meditating on the things that are, my thought was raised to a great height, while the physical senses of my body were held back—just as are the senses of men who are heavy with sleep after a large meal, or from fatigue of body.

 

I thought I heard a Being more than vast—in size beyond all bounds—called out my name and say: "What wouldst thou hear and see, and what hast thou in mind to learn and know?"

 

And I said: "Who art thou?"

 

He answered: "I am Shepherd of Men, Mind of all-Masterhood; I know what thou desirest and I am with thee everywhere."

 

And I replied: "I long to learn the things that are, and comprehend their nature, and know God. This (I said) is what I desire to hear."

 

He answered me: "Hold in thy mind all thou wouldst know, and I will teach thee."

 

And with these words His aspect changed; and straightway, in the twinkling of an eye, all things were opened to me. And I saw a limitless Vision: all things turned into Light—sweet, joyous Light. And I became transported as I gazed....

 

(Poemandres, v.1-4)

[Nungali]

On 12/10/2022 at 8:34 PM, Bindi said:

Islam seems more likely to create morality police (see Iran) and killing machines (eg. Islamic State) than mystics. Admittedly Sufism as a mystical sect of Islam has developed something beautiful in their interpretation of Islam, but from what I’ve read Sufis are barely tolerated by muslims. I’ve seen inclusive religious statements from the West readily refer to Sufism as positive, but rarely Islam. Yes all Sufis are Muslim, but most certainly not all Muslims are Sufi. Islamic State goes so far as to see Sufis as heretics and tries to destroy them. 
 

https://www.smh.com.au/world/to-the-world-they-are-muslims-to-islamic-state-sufis-are-heretics-20171126-gzsytx.html

 

I would more easily agree with your statement above if you switched Islam to Sufism. 

 

Indeed Bindi !     And I also posted stuff (from a Sufi site ) to show that Sufis do not have to be  and where not always Islamic - in fact, the site suggested their origin was in Zoroastrianism .

 

But I think you can imagine what response that was met with from 'certain people' here (like this  post will be )  .  - they also denied its many forms , claiming it was all about knowledge ... which actually means all their other paths where being denied ; like devotion, good works  etc . 

 

Actually, there is some movement in the Central Asian countries  where some are so sick of the troubles caused by fundamentalist Islamics .... that they are considering a return to Zoroastrianism !    And one of the big principles there is more sexual equality ....

 

Fortunately its a growing force around the world

 

 

The new Iranian flag ;

 

 

 

 

 think those Iranian 'clerics' could do with a dose of Peshmerga

 

 

[Bindi]

On 14/10/2022 at 10:22 AM, terry said:

 

 

   I truly believe islam needs no defense, and that her detractors are simply ignorant bigots.

 

  Yes there are many millions of muslims and a relative handful of sufis. On the other hand, probably most mystics by sheer quantity are sufis, and most mysticism is sufi inspired, from buddhist to hindu to christian. And sufis are muslims at root, or they aren't sufis.

 

   The two worst abusers of religion on the planet are the saudi princes and the ayatollahs.
 

 

 More than likely my view of Islam is coloured by Islamic fundamentalism. This is an article by a Pakistani man living in a fundamentalist country http://www.radicalsocialist.in/articles/world-politics/716-religious-fundamentalism-in-muslim-countries, I believe this is the truth of the matter, and as a result I tend to be very wary of anyone who seeks truth in the Koran that is also used to justify Islamic fundamentalism. 
 

I have read the Koran, and I have been duly horrified by the amount of killing that was recommended, I believe the Koran was written in a harsher and more violent era, and that there is no use for it in more enlightened times. Seeing only the positives of the Koran is to ignore a large part of it and a large part of Muhammad’s own violence, no matter how compassionately he liked to portray himself. 
 

Any religion that is formed whilst killing people who are critical of it is hardly a recipe for spiritual growth. That very intolerance is still alive within Islam today, and I believe it can only be fully removed when the injunction to kill the kafirs and the apostates and the critics is taken as an internal directive as the Sufi’s do and not an external one as Islamic fundamentalists do. 

 

Quote

Imagine if evangelical christians ran western countries. Truth is westerners are estranged from religion and less vulnerable to clerics.

 

   Anyone who knows muslims knows that they are not only good people, their societies are more attuned to god and goodness generally than ours, despite much greater challenges.
 

 

Most muslims are decent people, and there are some good values in the Koran, but unfortunately there are also some bad values. Which aspect is amplified will depend on a multitude of factors including things such as education level, family and friends, religiosity, socioeconomic status, as well as what is espoused by the dominant religion in any particular place. IMO it’s a credit to natural human nature that so many muslims are decent folk, despite the negative material that can be found in the Koran and in the prophet’s life. 

 

Quote

Christianity is morally and spiritually bankrupt, and islam lives largely in the hearts of hundreds of millions of muslims.

 

 

I’m not coming from a position that the Christian bible or Christianity is better than the Koran. 

 

Quote

 

   There is no merit in this sort of discussion. 

 

 

Disappointing that people can abide countenancing such corrupt opinions. Shameful, really. You must never have actually met an ordinary muslim before, and yet still have really shitty ideas about them. Media conditioning I guess, and western or eastern arrogance and racism.

 

 

I'd offer more sublimities from the treasure trove of islam but you'd probably gnash them between your hooves.

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Bindi

[Cobie]

Where I live took in a lot of Muslim refugees a few years back. I find them polite and pleasant. They seem to be integrating very well, I see lots of them having jobs although learning Dutch seems a big struggle for them. 
 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

Oops, posted it twice by mistake.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Cobie

[Bindi]

 

By and large most muslims are likely to be good people, just like most people anywhere are likely to be good people, but the Koran itself will always inevitably lead some to violence, I don’t see how it couldn’t. What use is there in a book that not only condones but encourages violence and war and killing in 2022? 

Violent Verses in the Quran

 

Quran (2:191-193)

“And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing… but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)”

Quran (2:244)

“Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.”

Quran (2:216)

“Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not.”

Quran (3:56)

“And as for those who disbelieved, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.”

---

 

Quran (4:74)

“So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And he who fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory – We will bestow upon him a great reward.”

Quran (4:76)

“Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of Taghut. So fight against the allies of Satan. Indeed, the plot of Satan has ever been weak.”

Quran (4:89)

“They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.”

Quran (4:101)

“And when you travel throughout the land, there is no blame upon you for shortening the prayer, [especially] if you fear that those who disbelieve may disrupt [or attack] you. Indeed, the disbelievers are ever to you a clear enemy.”

Quran (4:104)

“And do not weaken in pursuit of the enemy. If you should be suffering – so are they suffering as you are suffering, but you expect from Allah that which they expect not. And Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.”

Quran (5:33)

“Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,”

Quran (8:12)

“[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, ‘I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.’

Quran (8:15)

“O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight].”

Quran (8:39)

“And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease – then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.”

Quran (8:57)

“So if you, [O Muhammad], gain dominance over them in war, disperse by [means of] them those behind them that perhaps they will be reminded.”

Quran (8:59-60)

“And let not those who disbelieve think they will escape. Indeed, they will not cause failure [to Allah ]. And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged.”

Quran (8:65)

“O Prophet, urge the believers to battle…”

 

Quran (9:5)

“And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”

Quran (9:14)

“Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people”

Quran (9:29)

“Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.”

Quran (9:30)

“The Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of Allah’; and the Christians say, ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah .’ That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?”

Quran (9:38-39)

“O you who have believed, what is [the matter] with you that, when you are told to go forth in the cause of Allah, you adhere heavily to the earth? Are you satisfied with the life of this world rather than the Hereafter? But what is the enjoyment of worldly life compared to the Hereafter except a [very] little. If you do not go forth, He will punish you with a painful punishment and will replace you with another people, and you will not harm Him at all. And Allah is over all things competent.”

Quran (9:41)

“Go forth, whether light or heavy, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the cause of Allah . That is better for you, if you only knew.”

Quran (9:73)

“O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.”

 

---

Quran (9:88)

“But the Messenger and those who believed with him fought with their wealth and their lives. Those will have [all that is] good, and it is those who are the successful.”

Quran (9:111)

“Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah, so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah ? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.”

Quran (9:123)

“O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous.”

Quran (17:16)

“And when We intend to destroy a city, We command its affluent but they defiantly disobey therein; so the word comes into effect upon it, and We destroy it with [complete] destruction.”

Quran (25:52)

“So do not obey the disbelievers, and strive against them with the Qur’an a great striving.”

Quran (33:60-62)

“If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease and those who spread rumors in al-Madinah do not cease, We will surely incite you against them; then they will not remain your neighbors therein except for a little. Accursed wherever they are found, [being] seized and massacred completely. [This is] the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change.”

Quran (47:3-4)

“That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does Allah present to the people their comparisons. So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah – never will He waste their deeds.”

Quran (47:35)

“So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior; and Allah is with you and will never deprive you of [the reward of] your deeds.”

Quran (48:17)

“There is not upon the blind any guilt or upon the lame any guilt or upon the ill any guilt [for remaining behind]. And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger – He will admit him to gardens beneath which rivers flow; but whoever turns away – He will punish him with a painful punishment.”

Quran (48:29)

“Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers – so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.”

Quran (61:4)

“Indeed, Allah loves those who fight in His cause in a row as though they are a [single] structure joined firmly.”

Quran (61:10-12)

“O you who have believed, shall I guide you to a transaction that will save you from a painful punishment? [It is that] you believe in Allah and His Messenger and strive in the cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives. That is best for you, if you should know. He will forgive for you your sins and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow and pleasant dwellings in gardens of perpetual residence. That is the great attainment.”

Quran (66:9)

“O Prophet, strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.”

 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Bindi

[Nungali]

(actually glad I didnt read all that ...... it might have made me  feel a bit violent  myself . )

 

Now, compare the above with the writings of the next prophet and founder of a world religion ; Baha'u'llah .

 

Totally different ,  has a global view (instead of a near 'tribal' view )  advocates all the good things in Islam and teaches remedies for the bad things * .

 

Of course,  Islamic authorities hated them !  And oppressed and tortured them when they rose to power in Iran after the 'Islamic Revolution' .   I had personal dealings with them .... helping them ( as refugees)  get relocated into Australian society - some where torture victims ..... one woman told me her personal experience and showed me where they had removed parts of her .... a little part each few days .....   monsters !  And some of these people where the kindest most tolerant most spiritual people I have  met , but their behaviour in Iran cause outrage  as they broke rules like accepting women as equals and honouring others religions  ( even reading  other religions scriptures in their temples  ) . 

 

I will also comment that it is rather 'unfortunate ' that  the 'Welcome page ' of daobums is full of such Islamic propaganda : it was noted earlier on that  it is a good religion for many good people, and some of us have loved Islamic friends   BUT  it has inherent problems and suffers from violent fundamentalism ... which even other Muslims dont like !

 

There was no need for the continued  pro- Islamic  cheering, cover ups and virtual proselyting  that this  'welcome beginner'  thread about mysticism   got filled up with .   What a turn off for new people or the casual enquirer !

 

 

.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Nungali

[Cobie]

The Bible (mainly the Old Testament) is full of violent verses, but most Christians now are peaceful. I expect it’s the same with Islam.
 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Cobie