What's a mystic and how to become one?

[Nungali]

Most 'Christian countries ' are secular .  I cant imagine what a Fundamentalist Christian country  run with the Bible as the  rule book would be like  ???  It seems  a crazy  concept to us nowadays  !

 

Still, that doesnt stop Christians from being violent .... maybe they are MORE violent , just in subtler or more 'insidious' ways   ?   But I hope this doesnt turn into a 'who is the most violent '  argument  . Bible still has a LOT of nasty vindictive unevolved stuff in it .

 

I keep mentioning  Baha'i religion  (although I am not a Baha'i ) .... and thats for a reason ;  it doesnt have this crap in it  ... its more modern , evolved and enlightened  than all this tribal  rubbish !   We are living in a global world now ... about time we 'stepped up' !

 

 

[Bindi]

To even the playing field…
 

 

“… There are often good and bad variants of any given religion. For instance, there are moderate versions of Christianity and Islam that promote qualities like a sense of community and a moral code that fosters ethical behavior. These ideas can be beneficial to the host organism, i.e., the religious-practicing individual. At the same time, there are harmful variants of Islam and Christianity—specifically the rigid fundamentalist versions—that cause the host mind to process information in a biased way, think irrationally, and become delusional.”

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201810/how-religious-fundamentalism-hijacks-the-brain

[Cobie]

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

… the host organism .. 

 I’ve been called names before, but this is novel. 

[Bindi]

36 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Most 'Christian countries ' are secular .  I cant imagine what a Fundamentalist Christian country  run with the Bible as the  rule book would be like  ???  It seems  a crazy  concept to us nowadays  !

 

Still, that doesnt stop Christians from being violent .... maybe they are MORE violent , just in subtler or more 'insidious' ways   ?   But I hope this doesnt turn into a 'who is the most violent '  argument  . Bible still has a LOT of nasty vindictive unevolved stuff in it .

 

I keep mentioning  Baha'i religion  (although I am not a Baha'i ) .... and thats for a reason ;  it doesnt have this crap in it  ... its more modern , evolved and enlightened  than all this tribal  rubbish !   We are living in a global world now ... about time we 'stepped up' !

 

 

And I keep mentioning Sufism though I’m not a Sufi. And from a Sufi (Hafez) and my idea of a mystic, this poem -

I Have Learned So Much

I

Have

Learned

So much from God

That I can no longer

Call

Myself

A Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim,

a Buddhist, a Jew.

The Truth has shared so much of Itself

With me

That I can no longer call myself

A man, a woman, an angel,

Or even a pure

Soul.

Love has

Befriended Hafiz so completely

It has turned to ash

And freed

Me

Of every concept and image

my mind has ever known.

From: ‘The Gift’

Translated by Daniel Ladinsky

 

I could read Sufi poems all day, and have done so on occasion  

[SilentHand]

On 12/10/2022 at 10:34 AM, Bindi said:

Islam seems more likely to create morality police (see Iran) and killing machines (eg. Islamic State) than mystics. Admittedly Sufism as a mystical sect of Islam has developed something beautiful in their interpretation of Islam, but from what I’ve read Sufis are barely tolerated by muslims. I’ve seen inclusive religious statements from the West readily refer to Sufism as positive, but rarely Islam. Yes all Sufis are Muslim, but most certainly not all Muslims are Sufi. Islamic State goes so far as to see Sufis as heretics and tries to destroy them. 
 

https://www.smh.com.au/world/to-the-world-they-are-muslims-to-islamic-state-sufis-are-heretics-20171126-gzsytx.html

 

I would more easily agree with your statement above if you switched Islam to Sufism. 

 

You are too kind to Islam... most Sufis who actually become Mystics end up leaving Islam.. once you have seen the truth you cannot continue the lie, which is why they are hated so much in Islam.

 

We should not try to let Islam off the hook because of a perceived more violent period of history - that's not actually historically true - and death and violence was certainly unleashed by Islam on a mass scale not seen before on several continents. Remember Jesus and Buddha came 700 hundreds years and a millenia before the psychotic prophet and their teachings read somewhat differently, I'm sure you'd agree.

Edited October 19, 2022 by SilentHand

[terry]

On 10/17/2022 at 10:42 AM, Bindi said:

 

By and large most muslims are likely to be good people, just like most people anywhere are likely to be good people, but the Koran itself will always inevitably lead some to violence, I don’t see how it couldn’t. What use is there in a book that not only condones but encourages violence and war and killing in 2022? 

 

 

 

 

    Waste of time quoting the quran to me. The text is fifteen humdred years old. Muhammed was a desert raider who murdered, stole and raped for a living. Similar to a modern capitalist.

 

   One time as related in the quran muhammed was fighting a battle with men of inferior religion. On the point of defeat, he asked a respite to pray, and his proud foe granted it. Muhammed bent down, picked up a handful of dirt, and threw it in the eyes of his enemy, renewed the battle, and prevailed. Afterward he felt bad about it, and god told him, "Ye did not throw when ye threw." God took the responsibility on himself, and absolved muhammed. So He recited in the quran 8:17

 

And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

 

   This text is often repeated by sufis because it epitomizes the inner meaning of the quran, the batin as opposed to the zahir which is the exoteric meaning. As in xtianity, there are fanatical evil people who take the literal meaning of the law (sharia) and insist on it being the only meaning. Such people are a minority but being evil they hunger for power; it is proverbial that the devil loves to quote scripture. Muhammed made it clear that the quran should be read on deeper levels. The hadith says there are seven meanings for each verse, but the saints say there are infinite meanings and that the believer should understand each verse anew every time it is read.

 

   You, bindi, have been tested and have failed. You love the fruit and hate the tree, or love the tree and hate the fruit. You are a warrior for hate and division. I could explain the esoteric meaning of every verse but you would understand me exactly as much as a spoon understands the taste of soup.

 

   I'm giving you credit here for having the potential to hear the truth and cop to it. Perhaps you are a saul on your way to mecca and becoming an islamic paul. Try reading the lovng and spiritual verses and cleansing your heart.

 

   It is not you throwing stones at god, the compassionate, the merciful, but god herself.

 

   I meditate twice a day and nearly always recite this surah:

 

113. Surah Al-Falaq (The Daybreak)

 

In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

 

1. Say, “I take refuge with the Lord of Daybreak.

2. From the evil of what He created.

3. And from the evil of the darkness as it gathers.

4. And from the evil of those who practice sorcery.

5. And from the evil of an envious when he envies.”

 

[terry]

On 10/17/2022 at 11:37 AM, Bindi said:

To even the playing field…
 

 

“… There are often good and bad variants of any given religion. For instance, there are moderate versions of Christianity and Islam that promote qualities like a sense of community and a moral code that fosters ethical behavior. These ideas can be beneficial to the host organism, i.e., the religious-practicing individual. At the same time, there are harmful variants of Islam and Christianity—specifically the rigid fundamentalist versions—that cause the host mind to process information in a biased way, think irrationally, and become delusional.”

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201810/how-religious-fundamentalism-hijacks-the-brain

 

 

   Reminds me of trump talking about mexican immigrants as rapists and murderetrs, "Some, I suppose, are good people."

 

Mighty white of ya, trump.

 

 

[terry]

On 10/17/2022 at 11:01 AM, Nungali said:

 

 

There was no need for the continued  pro- Islamic  cheering, cover ups and virtual proselyting  that this  'welcome beginner'  thread about mysticism   got filled up with .   What a turn off for new people or the casual enquirer !

 

 

.

 

 No, nunchuks, it is the anti-islqmic hate speech that has no place in any public forum and is especially reprehensible here.

 

I agree it is a major turn off to new members.

 

[terry]

On 10/17/2022 at 11:22 AM, Nungali said:

Most 'Christian countries ' are secular .  I cant imagine what a Fundamentalist Christian country  run with the Bible as the  rule book would be like  ???  It seems  a crazy  concept to us nowadays  !

 

 

It does not seem far-fetched at all in america, where abortion is criminalized by flaming fundamentalist catholic supreme court judges even for ten year old incest rape victims. Of course they are total hypocrites, see football moron herschel walker's well funded senate campaign in georgia. America's supreme court allows churches to ignore public health restrictions and will legitimize homophobia soon in the name of religion, rolling back more rights.

 

It is illegal for children in florida public schools to say the word gay or speak of gay parents siblings or relatives. Books are being banned for telling the historical truth and I would not be surprised to see books literally burned. Including qurans, no doubt, if they can find any. 

[terry]

On 10/17/2022 at 11:42 AM, Cobie said:

 I’ve been called names before, but this is novel. 

 

"host organism"

 

   I kind of like it. Beats being a consumer.

[terry]

On 10/17/2022 at 12:07 PM, SilentHand said:

 

You are too kind to Islam... most Sufis who actually become Mystics end up leaving Islam.. once you have seen the truth you cannot continue the lie, which is why they are hated so much in Islam.

 

 

No sufi who actually becomes a mystic leaves islam. This should be obvious. 

 

Sufis are not hated by muslims. Hatred and anger are not condoned by islam.

 

(sigh)

 

 

 

[terry]

Now I see how, on a forum dedicated to mysticism, there is no sufi section. Even though sufis are the most numerous, influential and commonly known mystics in world history as well as currently.

 

Who would have expected such xenophobia and racism from those interested in enlightenment and mystic love?

 

I'm reminded of my college days at oregon straight in corn valley. Most of those country boys had never seen a black or a muslim and literally did not know how to act or what to say. They would just stare and my friends would feel as though in a goldfish bowl or zoo cage. Get to playing poker and drinking beer and we're all buddies in no time.

 

If you guys sat down in any normal situation with any ordinary muslim your judgmental attitudes would melt away like summer frost. If you worked in the trenches for awhile with people of different color or caste you would soon recognize your common humanity. 

 

Without this sense of true brotherhood, which is in essence to recognize the common fatherhood of god, you know nothing of mysticism and resemble the hindoos feeling the elephant.

[terry]

When my rich businessman son went on the haj a few years ago, the last little desert jumper into mecca had him sitting next to a woman who had never seen a seat belt before. They did not have a common language, and showing her with his belt didn't work, so he finally buckled it for her. And they smiled.

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, terry said:

 

 

 

    Waste of time quoting the quran to me. The text is fifteen humdred years old. Muhammed was a desert raider who murdered, stole and raped for a living. Similar to a modern capitalist.

 

   One time as related in the quran muhammed was fighting a battle with men of inferior religion. On the point of defeat, he asked a respite to pray, and his proud foe granted it. Muhammed bent down, picked up a handful of dirt, and threw it in the eyes of his enemy, renewed the battle, and prevailed. Afterward he felt bad about it, and god told him, "Ye did not throw when ye threw." God took the responsibility on himself, and absolved muhammed. So He recited in the quran 8:17

 

And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

 

 

 Not the word of God, merely all too human retrospective justification for his cowardly act. The Koran is full of justifications for Muhammad getting things his way. 

 

1 hour ago, terry said:

 

   This text is often repeated by sufis because it epitomizes the inner meaning of the quran, the batin as opposed to the zahir which is the exoteric meaning. As in xtianity, there are fanatical evil people who take the literal meaning of the law (sharia) and insist on it being the only meaning. Such people are a minority but being evil they hunger for power; it is proverbial that the devil loves to quote scripture. Muhammed made it clear that the quran should be read on deeper levels. The hadith says there are seven meanings for each verse, but the saints say there are infinite meanings and that the believer should understand each verse anew every time it is read.

 

   You, bindi, have been tested and have failed. You love the fruit and hate the tree, or love the tree and hate the fruit. You are a warrior for hate and division. I could explain the esoteric meaning of every verse but you would understand me exactly as much as a spoon understands the taste of soup.

 

   I'm giving you credit here for having the potential to hear the truth and cop to it. Perhaps you are a saul on your way to mecca and becoming an islamic paul. Try reading the lovng and spiritual verses and cleansing your heart.

 

   It is not you throwing stones at god, the compassionate, the merciful, but god herself.

 

   I meditate twice a day and nearly always recite this surah:

 

113. Surah Al-Falaq (The Daybreak)

 

In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

 

1. Say, “I take refuge with the Lord of Daybreak.

2. From the evil of what He created.

3. And from the evil of the darkness as it gathers.

4. And from the evil of those who practice sorcery.

5. And from the evil of an envious when he envies.”

 

 

[Bindi]

16 hours ago, terry said:

 

 

 

    Waste of time quoting the quran to me. The text is fifteen humdred years old. Muhammed was a desert raider who murdered, stole and raped for a living.
 

 

Correct. So why on earth would you believe he was privy to the word of God? Do you believe in a God that supports murder, theft and rape? This is a very strange concept of the ultimate to me.
 

Wiki-Islam’s List of Killings Ordered or Supported by Muhammad - I doubt you would try to debate their veracity. How do you justify that this is from “God”, shouldn’t “God” represent the best, not the worst of mankind? 

 

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad

 

 

 

16 hours ago, terry said:

Similar to a modern capitalist.

 

 

So you’re Muslim and socialist/communist? But it’s ok when Muhammad murders, steals and rapes, just not when capitalists do (*if they even do, and it’s not some personal grievance you have with capitalist society). If it’s not ok for capitalists* it shouldn’t be ok for Muhammad, or you should say it’s ok for both, can’t have your cake and eat it too. 

 

16 hours ago, terry said:

 

   One time as related in the quran muhammed was fighting a battle with men of inferior religion. On the point of defeat, he asked a respite to pray, and his proud foe granted it. Muhammed bent down, picked up a handful of dirt, and threw it in the eyes of his enemy, renewed the battle, and prevailed. Afterward he felt bad about it, and god told him, "Ye did not throw when ye threw." God took the responsibility on himself, and absolved muhammed. So He recited in the quran 8:17

 

And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

 

   This text is often repeated by sufis because it epitomizes the inner meaning of the quran, the batin as opposed to the zahir which is the exoteric meaning. As in xtianity, there are fanatical evil people who take the literal meaning of the law (sharia) and insist on it being the only meaning. Such people are a minority but being evil they hunger for power; it is proverbial that the devil loves to quote scripture. Muhammed made it clear that the quran should be read on deeper levels. The hadith says there are seven meanings for each verse, but the saints say there are infinite meanings and that the believer should understand each verse anew every time it is read.

 

   You, bindi, have been tested and have failed. You love the fruit and hate the tree, or love the tree and hate the fruit. You are a warrior for hate and division. I could explain the esoteric meaning of every verse but you would understand me exactly as much as a spoon understands the taste of soup.

 

   I'm giving you credit here for having the potential to hear the truth and cop to it. Perhaps you are a saul on your way to mecca and becoming an islamic paul. Try reading the lovng and spiritual verses and cleansing your heart.

 

   It is not you throwing stones at god, the compassionate, the merciful, but god herself.

 

   I meditate twice a day and nearly always recite this surah:

 

113. Surah Al-Falaq (The Daybreak)

 

In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

 

1. Say, “I take refuge with the Lord of Daybreak.

2. From the evil of what He created.

3. And from the evil of the darkness as it gathers.

4. And from the evil of those who practice sorcery.

5. And from the evil of an envious when he envies.”

 

 

[Nungali]

I must stop fighting to pray ... then throws dirt .   A low trick and one that Islam uses sometimes .

 

Eg.  During the  Bab'i revolution ;   The Islamic forces are holding a castle siege ...its time for prayer, the Bab'is send  the caller up the tower to give the call to prayer , the Muslims shoot him with an arrow . Another is sent up, they shoot him . After the third one is shot the Bab'i leader, in a rage, charges  out the fort on horse back , hacks his way through the opposing forces , who mostly flee in terror ( especially after seeing one man  stand behind a small tree and hold his sword up in defence and the sword and tree and man are all cut in two with one blow ) , charges into the other leaders tent and at the point of his sword forces an agreement not to harm the Muezzin , rides back , call to prayer goes out, both sides pray, then battle resumes .*

 

THAT is the way to do it ( and that action got many converts)  .

 

And here I was thinking that particular  enemy Muslim commander  had no decency or bravery ..... I previously had no idea though though that such cowardly behaviour had been emulated by Mohammed in the first place !

 

*  - from ,  'The Dawnbreakers' - by Nabil-i-A'zam.

 

 

 

... stand by for more justification folks .

Edited October 20, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

... and as for 

 

'I didnt do it ...... God said     HE did it !  I am now absolved  and pure  again. "

 

 

I mean ........   really ?    

[Zhongyongdaoist]

As for this:

 

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

... and as for 

 

'I didnt do it ...... God said     HE did it !  I am now absolved  and pure  again. "

 

 

I mean ........   really ?    

 

Yes, really.  The position is called occasionalism and terry has affirmed it in two posts:

 

On 9/1/2022 at 9:28 PM, terry said:

None of these beings are real, not even ourselves. There is Only One Real Agent.  (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Nor is this some idiocentric position, but an established doctrine:

 

On 8/19/2022 at 1:24 PM, terry said:

As rumi says, God is The Only Real Agent. Being a mystic involves accepting that you are a slave of an overwhelmingly powerful master, and not a very good slave at that.  (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

I first came across this position some time ago when while surveying the post Cartesian ruins of real Western Philosophy I came across Malabranche whose doctrine of Occasionalism Wikipedia summarizes this way:

 

Quote

In general, occasionalism is the view that there are no efficient causes in the full sense other than God. Created things are at best "occasions" for divine activity. Bodies and minds act neither on themselves nor on each other; God alone brings about all the phenomena of nature and the mind. Changes occurring in created things will exhibit regularities (and will thus satisfy a Humean definition of causation) because God in creating the world observes what Malebranche calls "order": he binds himself to act according to laws of nature chosen in accordance with his general will that the world be as good as possible, and thus (for example) that the laws be simple and few in number.

In particular, there will be laws governing what we would customarily call the "interaction" of body and mind, so that similar movements in the body will "occasion" similar ideas in the mind. That relation has some features of the causal relation (it satisfies, for example, universal conditionals of the form "Whenever C occurs, E occurs"). But in reality both the idea in the mind and the movement in the body are caused by God.   (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Its relatively early and long term influence on Islam can be found in the Wikipedia article here:

 

Islamic theological schools

 

Its roots in a "dualistic" mind/matter dichotomy that most Dao Bums want to avoid are also developed in the same article:

 

Dualism

 

I hope this helpful in understanding terry's post.

 

ZYD

[terry]

On 10/19/2022 at 1:22 PM, Bindi said:

 

 Not the word of God, merely all too human retrospective justification for his cowardly act. The Koran is full of justifications for Muhammad getting things his way. 

 

 

 

 

      Of course, I knew you would say this. When moses went out into the desert and opened his heart, he saw god in a burning bush. To the materialist, there was no god, just a cresoste fire. Moses made up the whole thing to retrospectively justify his acts. I can't even mention jesus whose acts are nonsensical and whose personality is a joke. Muhammed pointedly never claimed to do any miracles or be personally divine, exactly the contrary (quran 18:110):

 

Say [O Prophet]: "I am but a mortal man like all of you. It has been revealed unto me that your God is the One and Only God. Hence, whoever looks forward [with hope and awe] to meeting his Sustainer [on Judgment Day], let him do righteous deeds, and let him not ascribe unto anyone or anything a share in the worship due to his Sustainer!"

 

 

    It is god who justified mohammed. The inner meaning, the ta'wil, is that there is no muhammed, no terry, no bindi, just god. We are "alone with the alone." (corbin) There is no god but god. The jihad, the holy war, is against one's own nafs, one's own soul or ego or personality or putative liver of life. The fundamental delusion is that there is a world out there and a person in here. The inner meaning of the quran - that is, of god's word - reveals that there is no world out there and no person in here. Your god is one god.

 

Omar khayyam:

 

Alike for those who for To-day prepare,
And those that after some To-morrow stare,
A Muezzin from the Tower of Darkness cries
"Fools! your Reward is neither Here nor There.”
 

   Again, I am giving you credit here for being a rational being with a heart and mind that may be reached by truth. Of course, that is giving you way too much credit, so let us try to understand whence comes your racist, xenophobic hatred for all that is good in the world, ie islam. Submission to god.

 

    The tendency, honestly, is to oppose hatred with hatred. What a bad person you are to deny god and disrespect god's lovers and friends. But... Coming from a medical background, we tend to set aside the moral dimension of evil and treat it as an illness. And you, friend bindi, are not the only person suffering from this illness.

 

   People who feel stuck in a life they hate and are unwilling to take personal responsibility for lifting themselves higher turn to jealousy, envy and hatred to compensate for their inadequacy. Because of this, the average westerner facing a failing and spiritually deadening and unrewarding culture of capitalist growth in a rapidly warming, overpopulated world which won't tolerate it, turns to simple minded hate of change and nostalgia for 'returning to normal' or repeating an idyllic nonexistent past. 

 

   These modern westerners have a totally bankrupt religion and when they look within they see only a chilling emptiness of artificial intelligence and mechanical existence. Unwilling to admit that what is socially acceptable in their culture is utterly unsustainable and bad for them and the planet, unwilling to accept the necessity for change stemming from an imploding way of living, they cast about for someone to vent their negative emotions on in a way that will be accepted by those they slavishly imitate and submit to, their influencers. They are easy prey for people who will stoke any hatred to achieve power. Seeing friends and neighbors succumb to hatred they gleefully give in to base instincts, and deny that anyone has any true religion. They may even become footsoldiers in the culture wars, helping to stoke hatred until one day they find themselves hacking off their neighbors arms and legs with machetes by the millions.

 

   You islamophobes are jealous and envious of people who don't have to hate themselves for being devils. Poor, non-white, religious, subsistence farmers are your real muslims. Your average pious wealthy muslim feels a solidarity with these basic peasant human muslims that you cannot even imagine. The average muslim meets a westerner and wants to talk about religion and is astonished to find that the average so-called christian knows little of their own scriptures and rarely prays. Muslims have a rich deep spiritual life that westerners hate because it exposes their own hypocrisy and pretenses and inner poverty.

 

   The west is destroying the planet in their greed, and the people who want to deny that find islamophobia a handy diversion and route to power. The global war on islam was entirely a power grab by the neocons, an ongoing coup that has destroyed democracy in america and indeed the world and is bringing us tyrants all over the globe.

 

   A dylan says, 

 

In ceremonies of the horseman,

Even the pawn must hold a grudge.

 

   So, my friend, try thinking for yourself and not being such a tool. And that's not even talking about inner meanings, even the outer meanings are wrong and you should change. Recognize racism, bigotry and hatred and stop supporting them. For your own sake if not ours.

 

 

terry

 

 

 

[Nungali]

 

 

I am well aware Donald of the many 'justifications' for 'religious actions' .  There is no harm in the constant 'blessing'  and/or 'realisation' of  Inshalla.  My comments apply to 'occasionalasists ' as well .... when its used as an excuse . 
 

These are two very different occasions .     What you say may be valid,  but is it valid ifI punch you in the nose and then say 'God did that .' ?

[terry]

one love
(bob marley)

 

 

One love, one heart
Let's get together and feel all right
Hear the children crying (One love)
Hear the children crying (One heart)
Sayin', "Give thanks and praise to the Lord and I will feel all right."
Sayin', "Let's get together and feel all right."
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa

 

Let them all pass all their dirty remarks (One love)
There is one question I'd really love to ask (One heart)
Is there a place for the hopeless sinner
Who has hurt all mankind just to save his own?
Believe me

One love, one heart
Let's get together and feel all right

As it was in the beginning (One love)
So shall it be in the end (One heart)
Alright, "Give thanks and praise to the Lord and I will feel all right."
"Let's get together and feel all right."

One more thing

Let's get together to fight this Holy Armageddon (One love)
So when the Man comes there will be no, no doom (One song)
Have pity on those whose chances grow thinner
There ain't no hiding place from the Father of Creation

Sayin', "One love, one heart
Let's get together and feel all right."

I'm pleading to mankind (One love)
Oh, Lord (One heart) Whoa.
Give thanks and praise to the Lord and I will feel all right.
Let's get together and feel all right.
Give thanks and praise to the Lord and I will feel all right.
Let's get together and feel all right.

 

[terry]

26 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

I am well aware Donald of the many 'justifications' for 'religious actions' .  There is no harm in the constant 'blessing'  and/or 'realisation' of  Inshalla.  My comments apply to 'occasionalasists ' as well .... when its used as an excuse . 
 

These are two very different occasions .     What you say may be valid,  but is it valid ifI punch you in the nose and then say 'God did that .' ?

 

 

 

Old argument, goes back at least to zeno. Zeno had an orchard, and caught a thief stealing his apples, and proceeded to beat him.The thief protested that if all things were god's will, then he should not been punished for stealing fruit. Zeno replied, if all things were god's will, the thief shouldn't complain of being beaten for his theft.

 

 

[Nungali]

and now Bindi is tagged with   "  ...   your   racist, xenophobic hatred for all that is good in the world ... "

and

" What a bad person you are to deny god and disrespect god's lovers and friends.  .... "

 

" stuck in a life they hate and are unwilling to take personal responsibility for lifting themselves higher turn to jealousy, envy and hatred to compensate for their inadequacy. "

 

Of course its all our fault ;  " the average westerner facing a failing and spiritually deadening and unrewarding culture of capitalist growth in a rapidly warming, overpopulated world  "

 

because Islamic culture has none of that , right ?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism_and_Islam

 

        

                                                      Meccan Capitalism & The Economic Revolution of Islam -

 

 

 

In other words it is the same as capitalism .... with 'Divine' restrictions . 

 

This is an example of Islamic non-capitalism ;

 

 

" Islamic laws governing usury, which aim to prevent inequality and unfair wealth hoarding, explicitly forbid investors and lenders from earning interest on their investments. This is because to do so would be to collect unearned wealth and enrich oneself at the expense of others . "

 

Of course this could cause a response 'explaining everything '  ; its all fair , usury is not allowed , any profit must be channelled back or    " If financial activities do generate interest, this money should be reinvested immediately into socially worthwhile activities and causes."

 

really ? 

 

 

 

 

some might think this is a modern phenomena  ?

 

Nope

 

https://aboutislam.net/muslim-issues/africa/muslim-king-richest-man-ever-lived/

 

 It must be nice to live in a world where all profit is shared and goes towards the needy .

 

 

 

( and just to remind people , my first posts on this subject where defending the religion and the good and simple people of Islam , but THIS rubbish needs addressing  - just as I would address similar rubbish claims from any other religion  that was trying to paint itself with such a pure brush !  ) 

[Nungali]

8 minutes ago, terry said:

 

 

 

Old argument, goes back at least to zeno. Zeno had an orchard, and caught a thief stealing his apples, and proceeded to beat him.The thief protested that if all things were god's will, then he should not been punished for stealing fruit. Zeno replied, if all things were god's will, the thief shouldn't complain of being beaten for his theft.

 

 

 

Of course it is an old argument  .... its an old excuse - with a giant hole in it !

[terry]

still thinking about the causes of islamophobia...

 

In freudian,, western psychoanalytic terms it amounts to penis envy...powerless, inadequate, frightened, insecure and needing someone to blame desperately because being oneself is so hard... strawberry fields forever! and keep your cotton picking hands off of my patch...

 

there is a blindness to the righteous karma of reverse colonialism, and the need to replace all these old haoles anyway with vigorous new blood...

 

 

rumi gives us the image of an effeminate eunuch who owns a beautiful slave girl...he can sell her to buy kohl and rouge and perfumes, in order to pursue his own pleasures, but he cannot use her in the natural way, only pass her on to someone suficiently virile... 

 

of course, there's no such thing as being a little bit castrated...