Using psychedelics for cultivation or any other spiritual system.

[Feral]

For what it's worth, my own experience has included mushrooms, cactus and ayahuasca. What I've found is that they can certainly get the ball rolling as far as spiritual self discovery. Doors will be opened and amazing possibilities encountered. BUT, when you are back to ground zero, it will still be up to you to actively take steps to further your journey in a clear and conscious way.

 

  I applaud the people who have been able to reach a higher conscious state without help from the plant molecules, but for others, it can be an awakening moment and possible healing journey  that may have never happened otherwise. I'll always be grateful for my own encounters and I think they have these effects for some reason. There are a couple of powerful lessons I've taken away that have stood the test of time, given a measure of peace and continue to nourish the spirit. That said, they can still create illusions of the mind, so a discerning attitude is a requirement and the subsequent work and integration still needs active participation. 

 

It's undeniable that there is something powerful going on there and I do see them as a gift, however, if someone should decide to go down that road, please do so with the utmost respect and humility. They are not something to be used lightly or as some form of recreation. Well, mushrooms may be used that way, for a while, but respect and proper preparation will always be rule one.

 

 

[ralis]

8 minutes ago, Feral said:

For what it's worth, my own experience has included mushrooms, cactus and ayahuasca. What I've found is that they can certainly get the ball rolling as far as spiritual self discovery. Doors will be opened and amazing possibilities encountered. BUT, when you are back to ground zero, it will still be up to you to actively take steps to further your journey in a clear and conscious way.

 

  I applaud the people who have been able to reach a higher conscious state without help from the plant molecules, but for others, it can be an awakening moment and possible healing journey  that may have never happened otherwise. I'll always be grateful for my own encounters and I think they have these effects for some reason. There are a couple of powerful lessons I've taken away that have stood the test of time, given a measure of peace and continue to nourish the spirit. That said, they can still create illusions of the mind, so a discerning attitude is a requirement and the subsequent work and integration still needs active participation. 

 

It's undeniable that there is something powerful going on there and I do see them as a gift, however, if someone should decide to go down that road, please do so with the utmost respect and humility. They are not something to be used lightly or as some form of recreation. Well, mushrooms may be used that way, for a while, but respect and proper preparation will always be rule one.

 

 

 

There are some that never heal once the gateway has opened. 

[blue eyed snake]

When you see plants that can aid the mind to experiences as part of spiritual growth, as a gift from mother earth. Then to me it sounds like we need to use them wisely. That wisdom has become a rarity and looking back, gratefulness is felt toward the guy that introduced me to psychedelics. Some things have changed in me which may have made other, later experiences easier to 'reach'.

 

many use of it is purely recreational, done for the kick or whatever. Also used as a escape from your daily struggle,  that can easily lead to abuse of the stuff. Although it's not addictive in and of itself, overuse is not recommended.

 

I will not use psychedelics anymore because I am aware of the fragility of the current bodymind. I never took much as this body has always been overly sensitive to everything. But how many people have that awareness of their own bodymind? so imho some sort of guidance is needed.

 

and yes, I've seen the horrids of misuse, overuse, bad trips whatever you call it. In those cases the true guidance one should follow was never heeded.

 

Quite apart from all these things, I am reluctant to sing it's praise to a random person on the internet, one who I don't know, might be young and vulnerable.

[ralis]

23 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

When you see plants that can aid the mind to experiences as part of spiritual growth, as a gift from mother earth. Then to me it sounds like we need to use them wisely. That wisdom has become a rarity and looking back, gratefulness is felt toward the guy that introduced me to psychedelics. Some things have changed in me which may have made other, later experiences easier to 'reach'.

 

many use of it is purely recreational, done for the kick or whatever. Also used as a escape from your daily struggle,  that can easily lead to abuse of the stuff. Although it's not addictive in and of itself, overuse is not recommended.

 

I will not use psychedelics anymore because I am aware of the fragility of the current bodymind. I never took much as this body has always been overly sensitive to everything. But how many people have that awareness of their own bodymind? so imho some sort of guidance is needed.

 

and yes, I've seen the horrids of misuse, overuse, bad trips whatever you call it. In those cases the true guidance one should follow was never heeded.

 

Quite apart from all these things, I am reluctant to sing it's praise to a random person on the internet, one who I don't know, might be young and vulnerable.

 

There are some entheogens that are not advisable under any conditions. There are some growing on our street and are common in the desert SW USA.

[blue eyed snake]

well, some people ingest everything for kicks.

with dubious outcomes

[blue eyed snake]

3 hours ago, questionmark said:

Not all possibilities are ones you'd wish for...

 

that's right, and even without taking psychedelics life can hand out a hand of cards that will choke you and make you regret all the things you did not do, all the chances you let pass.

 

3 hours ago, questionmark said:

Someone I grew up with in the local community experimented with drugs (starting with dope, over to hallucinating mushrooms and more...), and the effects made me - horrified

 

 

I am sorry, things like that hurt, seeing someone you like or love ending in a bottomless pit, acting weird and then weirder is very hurtful. I know that, I've been close with persons who ended up like that. I've even felt responsible ( which I wasn't)

Life in a body is full of dangers. But life in a body is beautiful too, I treasure the memories of that year I took the tiny mushrooms. Have been lucky with the people around me who took such good care of me. That's all around 40 years ago. Since that time that same bodymind has produced much more weirdness then the bit of mushrooms in that long lost time. And come to think of it, there have been strange things happening to me before that year as well. 

 

There can be many reasons for falling in psychotic episodes, as far as I am aware science has not yet fiddled out the hows and whys. But it's clear some people are vulnerable. At the moment an adopted cousin from me has become psychotic, there are no psychedelics involved. Mom and grandmom ( my sister) are having a hard time with it. But it's always been clear there was something 'not right' with that boy. My sister turned to me for advice.

 

As you write this young man has experimented with several kinds of drugs, probably mixing them. That is very different from the careful use of it as part of a spiritual path. But that does not make your pain and fear less.

 

I do not advise anyone to use psychedelics, but when the question comes I do have some advice on the way to go.

 

 

You cannot stop people from living and getting experiences, whether that's taking psychedelics, hang-gliding, chanting in a chorus, meditating or bungee-jumping. They will get those experiences regardless of your fear. That is part from being human, to explore new things, what for you sounds like danger, may well be just exiting or beautiful for someone else.

I've done things and live to enjoy the memories.

 

My weirdest experiences ever have come from quietly meditating, would you say I should stop meditating? 't was much weirder then the effect from psychedelics and  I am pretty sure a psychologist would dub it psychosis or some such term.

 

You can't stop people from living and taking a bit of mushroom once in a while is much less dangerous then several other 'normal' things.

 

3 hours ago, questionmark said:

of taking outside drugs (caffeine, wine etc excluded) especially those who are known for giving hallucinations.

 

Alcohol is very dangerous, look up how many deaths yearly are the result of alcohol-consumption. Think car-accidents, broken families, traumatized women and children due to drunk and aggressive fathers. ( also mothers but they tend to produce less damage by aggressiveness) Add to that illnesses of the liver and Korsakov syndrome. It's not a nice picture. And it can ruin the mind too. My brother was an alcoholic and has been in psych wards many times. Until he could not live further and ended it.

Alcohol is decidedly not  innocent, will I tell people they have to stop drinking, nope. Will I warn people and help them when they start to drink too much, yes of course. And I like a small beaker of meade myself.

 

 

[natural]

Thank you for the wisdom in your post Bes

[ralis]

51 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

that's right, and even without taking psychedelics life can hand out a hand of cards that will choke you and make you regret all the things you did not do, all the chances you let pass.

 

 

I am sorry, things like that hurt, seeing someone you like or love ending in a bottomless pit, acting weird and then weirder is very hurtful. I know that, I've been close with persons who ended up like that. I've even felt responsible ( which I wasn't)

Life in a body is full of dangers. But life in a body is beautiful too, I treasure the memories of that year I took the tiny mushrooms. Have been lucky with the people around me who took such good care of me. That's all around 40 years ago. Since that time that same bodymind has produced much more weirdness then the bit of mushrooms in that long lost time. And come to think of it, there have been strange things happening to me before that year as well. 

 

There can be many reasons for falling in psychotic episodes, as far as I am aware science has not yet fiddled out the hows and whys. But it's clear some people are vulnerable. At the moment an adopted cousin from me has become psychotic, there are no psychedelics involved. Mom and grandmom ( my sister) are having a hard time with it. But it's always been clear there was something 'not right' with that boy. My sister turned to me for advice.

 

As you write this young man has experimented with several kinds of drugs, probably mixing them. That is very different from the careful use of it as part of a spiritual path. But that does not make your pain and fear less.

 

I do not advise anyone to use psychedelics, but when the question comes I do have some advice on the way to go.

 

 

You cannot stop people from living and getting experiences, whether that's taking psychedelics, hang-gliding, chanting in a chorus, meditating or bungee-jumping. They will get those experiences regardless of your fear. That is part from being human, to explore new things, what for you sounds like danger, may well be just exiting or beautiful for someone else.

I've done things and live to enjoy the memories.

 

My weirdest experiences ever have come from quietly meditating, would you say I should stop meditating? 't was much weirder then the effect from psychedelics and  I am pretty sure a psychologist would dub it psychosis or some such term.

 

You can't stop people from living and taking a bit of mushroom once in a while is much less dangerous then several other 'normal' things.

 

 

Alcohol is very dangerous, look up how many deaths yearly are the result of alcohol-consumption. Think car-accidents, broken families, traumatized women and children due to drunk and aggressive fathers. ( also mothers but they tend to produce less damage by aggressiveness) Add to that illnesses of the liver and Korsakov syndrome. It's not a nice picture. And it can ruin the mind too. My brother was an alcoholic and has been in psych wards many times. Until he could not live further and ended it.

Alcohol is decidedly not  innocent, will I tell people they have to stop drinking, nope. Will I warn people and help them when they start to drink too much, yes of course. And I like a small beaker of meade myself.

 

 

 

Over on the r/Psychonaut sub Reddit there are some crazy people taking massive does of mushrooms, LSD etc. Over the top such as 3 hits of acid and several grams of mushrooms all at once with a little hash in the mix. The posters could be bullshit assholes, but it may lead to others attempting to ingest heroic doses. 

 

There are very few authentic shamans or elders around to seek guidance from, very unfortunate. Independent Libertarian values rule over wisdom these days.

[ralis]

New Mexico had just another peyote sunset here. Almost guaranteed on a daily basis.

[Feral]

A little nippy over that way though, I understand.  

[ralis]

6 minutes ago, Feral said:

A little nippy over that way though, I understand.  

 

Warming up today. Looks like an early spring.

[Salvijus]

For some reason this topic has always left me unsatisfied. Like all answers are lacking depth to it.

 

There seem to be cases when psychedelics are helpful and cases when psychedelics would be detremental to one's growth. And no teacher that I know ever goes into full detail of the subject. They just glance at this superficially and that's it. Pisses me off 😀

 

And it seems that there's a lot contradiction among advanced meditators/teachers of different traditions also. That also pisses me off 😀 never ending confusion.

 

Still I appreciate all perspectives. If somebody has any insights that could broaden my understanding, I would really appreciate it. 🙏

 

@freeformSorry for tagging you 😀 I thought your depth of understanding could be of value 🙏

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

I’ve taken mushrooms twice in my life with no bad results, although I do believe it’s possible that it can be detrimental when abused in large doses or if someone is unlucky enough to have a bad reaction to it. I don’t think taking psychedelics by themselves is bad but doing at the same time as meditating/energy work would probably not be a good idea.

[S:C]

Of course, everyone has to make the decision for themselves.

Not taking that away by stating what I had to watch.

 

In my opinion, the risks far outweighs the possibilities.

It can get as far as categorization 60% severely disabled, getting disability pensions (as not being able to work) and needing to take risperidon to halfway get along with people, which has heavy side effects on perception, energy, state of mind, health and feelings. 

By far this isn't the only case where this got started by psychedelics, it's over 20 in the town with similar diagnosis and trigger.

Edited February 6, 2022 by questionmark
health

[Feral]

5 hours ago, Salvijus said:

For some reason this topic has always left me unsatisfied. Like all answers are lacking depth to it.

 

There seem to be cases when psychedelics are helpful and cases when psychedelics would be detremental to one's growth. And no teacher that I know ever goes into full detail of the subject. They just glance at this superficially and that's it. Pisses me off 😀

 

And it seems that there's a lot contradiction among advanced meditators/teachers of different traditions also. That also pisses me off 😀 never ending confusion.

 

Still I appreciate all perspectives. If somebody has any insights that could broaden my understanding, I would really appreciate it. 🙏

 

@freeformSorry for tagging you 😀 I thought your depth of understanding could be of value 🙏

You are asking a rather general question, in turn, you will get general answers. Have you used psychedelics in the past? What is your intent? The scope in which Psyches are used is enormous and they vary, traditionally and non traditionally by each type, in their own way. There are proponents and non proponents for their use and both raise good arguments and concerns. What works well for one person, could be a disaster for another, so there is a need for caution in advocating their use to a random person on the internet.    It's not a simple or small subject and this really isn't a forum that focuses on psyches. There is better information elsewhere, but please avoid those Reddit sites unless you are looking for the wrong way to proceed. 

[Cleansox]

Most people who try cannabis get some kind of positive effect, ranging from relaxation to pain relief to interesting experiences. 

 

A minority trigger a psychotic episode. 

 

The same goes for many other drugs. 

 

Of those that I have personal knowledge of (I work in a psychiatric clinic), quite a few that it went really bad for, was already known (or their siblings were) to the clinic, or to the social service. 

 

But not all. 

[Iliketurtles]

On 2/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, Salvijus said:

What is your opinion about using psychedelics to progress on the path? Are there any dangers to it? On which conditions and to what extent are they useful in your opinion?

 

Would like to expand my understanding on this subject. Would appreaciate some insights into it if somebody has any. 

 

Psychedelics carry an inherent risk, some people genetically predisposed to mental illness it can either trigger it, or accelerate the development of it.  I have seen it occur first hand.

 

People who do random qigong exercises they make up, also can trigger manic episodes and psychosis with no drugs involved. 

 

This is known as kundalini and or qigong psychosis. 

 

I know a person who did third eye breathing and did no drugs at all and caused themselves to become so manic they couldn't sleep and kept calling me every night at 3:00 am to tell me about all the mysteries of the universe they were unraveling. 

 

So let's say you are smoking a lot of weed, taking a lot of shrooms and acid, and doing third eye breathing exercises you just made up on the fly...

 

It is not going to end well most likely. 

[Cleansox]

10 minutes ago, Iliketurtles said:

... to tell me about all the mysteries of the universe they were unraveling. 

Were you impressed with the depth of the insight? 

[Iliketurtles]

30 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Were you impressed with the depth of the insight? 

 

No, just more gibberish.  

 

Mania will do that to you.

 

 

[ralis]

4 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

Psychedelics carry an inherent risk, some people genetically predisposed to mental illness it can either trigger it, or accelerate the development of it.  I have seen it occur first hand.

 

People who do random qigong exercises they make up, also can trigger manic episodes and psychosis with no drugs involved. 

 

This is known as kundalini and or qigong psychosis. 

 

I know a person who did third eye breathing and did no drugs at all and caused themselves to become so manic they couldn't sleep and kept calling me every night at 3:00 am to tell me about all the mysteries of the universe they were unraveling. 

 

So let's say you are smoking a lot of weed, taking a lot of shrooms and acid, and doing third eye breathing exercises you just made up on the fly...

 

It is not going to end well most likely. 

 

Like I said earlier there are many gateways-many are not desirable.

[freeform]

23 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

@freeformSorry for tagging you 😀 I thought your depth of understanding could be of value 🙏

Who dares to rouse me from my slumber!?!

 

Oh it’s @Salvijus - that’s alright then  

 

The brain in Daoist thought isn’t the centre of our consciousness or even thinking - it’s more like the transformer that takes in the totality of experience and steps it down and makes it experiencable  on the human scale.

 

Psychedelics effectively mess with this step down transformer. The result is that your perception is altered. 
 

What this means is that a psychedelic experience is largely limited to the capacity of your mind.
 

Meaning that however seemingly mystical or profound your experience may have been from a trip, it can never touch your spirit… your reach is limited to the human realm - and sometimes, with some shamanic training you can extend this reach to one level lower and one level higher - meaning you can access the realms of ghosts, plants, the earth… or even low level deities.
 

The majority of people don’t go beyond the mind. The amazing mystical experiences we have on psychedelics are at the level of the mind.

 

This can be a positive thing if one’s mental constructs are very firm. If you’re very stuck in your ways and your world is small… psychedelics can shake it up and show to you the nature of mind and how amazing, pliable and unfixed it actually is. 

 

This can have a profound effect on someone who had a very fixed idea of reality - and never considered that reality is so closely intertwined with perception. They can begin to see that reality is far more complex than they ever realised… they might begin to appreciate different perspectives and see things in a new light.

 

Apart from this paradigm shifting effect, psychedelics have little that would be of use to a cultivator.

One of my teachers mentioned that you can get stuck in a different realm… not every realm is suitable for humans, but you can easily get stuck there and not be able to return.

 

Mechanics wise - at least for mushrooms - they tend to quickly mobilise Jing and let it flood the Shen that feeds the mind and the brain. They suppress the Po - which gives the Hun some flexibility in its travels even though you’re not asleep.

 

Psychedelics (especially if you have a lot of qi) can be dangerous… as I said - you can enter other realms, and the thread holding your various bodies together can snap and you can get stuck.

 

Beyond a certain extent psychedelics are of no use to a cultivator. They’re also a little dangerous. if you’re interested in being a shaman and deal with spirits, ghosts and plant consciousness - then it’s useful, but get some decent shamanic training id suggest.

[Salvijus]

On 2022-02-06 at 5:02 PM, Feral said:

You are asking a rather general question, in turn, you will get general answers.

 

Yea, I guess you're right. I haven't used any strong psychedelics myself. Not sure what I wanted to know. Just a general deepening of understanding I guess. This topic has been on my mind for quite some time. If there're any dangers to it, it's useful to know in case I want to try it.

 

I'm aware that it can be very mentally destabilizing for some people. But I'm not concerned about that, I feel I'm mentally very stable. What does concern me is a powerful energy eruption that could come up on psychidelics and a damage to the system that it could cause.

 

@freeform particulary mentioned that those with a lot of chi are more prone to dangers then others. I wonder why is that so? I was kinda worried about the same thing myself. When I do my little yoga practice, my body trembles with energy. The idea of putting a psychedelic scares me a bit, because if I understand it correctly, psychedelics do unleash enourmous amount of energy from somewhere. And I don't know if that would be good for me.

 

What do you guys think about that energy that is being released on psychedelics? I know mantak chia is not a popular figure here but he makes an interesting point that psychedelics drain the organs' stored energy to create that explosion of energy. I thought that's an interesting explanation, it does make some sense to me.

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Salvijus

[blue eyed snake]

On 6-2-2022 at 12:40 AM, ralis said:

 

Over on the r/Psychonaut sub Reddit there are some crazy people taking massive does of mushrooms, LSD etc. Over the top such as 3 hits of acid and several grams of mushrooms all at once with a little hash in the mix. The posters could be bullshit assholes, but it may lead to others attempting to ingest heroic doses. 

 

There are very few authentic shamans or elders around to seek guidance from, very unfortunate. Independent Libertarian values rule over wisdom these days.

 

looks like it's getting more crazy , as I said, what people are doing for kicks

[Gerard]

On 6/2/2022 at 3:12 AM, silent thunder said:

Disagree entirely.  

 

 

Sincerity? It takes a lot more than sincerity to work on blockages at all levels: mind, qi & body. The hardest one is the start of all blockages: The Mind. What Buddhist call fetters. From there is all a cascading effect.

 

Psychiatric community? We are talking about healthy fit people here on a spiritual quest not junkies.

 

Travel where?

 

 

 

[natural]

 

 

12 minutes ago, Gerard said:

 

 

Sincerity? It takes a lot more than sincerity to work on blockages at all levels: mind, qi & body. The hardest one is the start of all blockages: The Mind. What Buddhist call fetters. From there is all a cascading effect.

 

Psychiatric community? We are talking about healthy fit people here on a spiritual quest not junkies.

 

Travel where?

 

 

 

 

Fetters are not unique to Buddhists.

Although they do limit movement.