Using psychedelics for cultivation or any other spiritual system.

[Iliketurtles]

4 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

Yea, I guess you're right. I haven't used any strong psychedelics myself. Not sure what I wanted to know. Just a general deepening of understanding I guess. This topic has been on my mind for quite some time. If there're any dangers to it, it's useful to know in case I want to try it.

 

I'm aware that it can be very mentally destabilizing for some people. But I'm not concerned about that, I feel I'm mentally very stable. What does concern me is a powerful energy eruption that could come up on psychidelics and a damage to the system that it could cause.

 

@freeform particulary mentioned that those with a lot of chi are more prone to dangers then others. I wonder why is that so? I was kinda worried about the same thing myself. When I do my little yoga practice, my body trembles with energy. The idea of putting a psychedelic scares me a bit, because if I understand it correctly, psychedelics do unleash enourmous amount of energy from somewhere. And I don't know if that would be good for me.

 

What do you guys think about that energy that is being released on psychedelics? I know mantak chia is not a popular figure here but he makes an interesting point that psychedelics drain the organs' stored energy to create that explosion of energy. I thought that's an interesting explanation, it does make some sense to me.

 

 

 

 

When my buddy called me at 3am to tell me all the deets on the ultimate nature of reality, he never saw a problem. 

 

Even when I pointed out the really bizarre behavior, lack of sleep, racing thoughts, all that jazz he still never saw a problem. 

 

So, you could have a problem and not even be aware you have a problem.

 

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, Gerard said:

 

 

Sincerity? It takes a lot more than sincerity to work on blockages at all levels: mind, qi & body. The hardest one is the start of all blockages: The Mind. What Buddhist call fetters. From there is all a cascading effect.

 

Psychiatric community? We are talking about healthy fit people here on a spiritual quest not junkies.

 

Travel where?

 

 

 

Stay in your lane mate.

 

[Earl Grey]

14 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

When my buddy called me at 3am to tell me all the deets on the ultimate nature of reality, he never saw a problem. 

 

Even when I pointed out the really bizarre behavior, lack of sleep, racing thoughts, all that jazz he still never saw a problem. 

 

So, you could have a problem and not even be aware you have a problem.

 

 

100%. It's like they don't realize that they're high or acting high.

[Salvijus]

14 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

When my buddy called me at 3am to tell me all the deets on the ultimate nature of reality, he never saw a problem. 

 

Even when I pointed out the really bizarre behavior, lack of sleep, racing thoughts, all that jazz he still never saw a problem. 

 

So, you could have a problem and not even be aware you have a problem.

 

 

Haha, good point. I agree.

[Gerard]

In fact, when you practice a method that has been passed on by generations of teachers and you fully dedicate your life to it, meditate to supplement that practice, live a solitary life and are celibate, EAT HEALTHY, COOKED GOOD QUALITY FOOD DAILY, stop eating meals past midday, and live near or in the natural environment as well as practising that method in this place THEN you ask yourself:

 

Do I need anything extra? Drugs?

 

Not really, this lifestyle is already a drug in its own kind. 

 

This lifestyle also leads to FULL REALISATION, and you know it.

 

My main method is CIRCLE WALKING also known as Ba Gua Quan. 

 

And a lot of grounding I had to do to bring all that Qi down after decades of thinking, academic studies, professional work, etc. And a lot of HEAT and DAMPNESS was removed in the process due to our modern lifestyle.

 

HARD WORK I call this method too.

 

 

[Shadow_self]

On 06/02/2022 at 3:44 PM, Iliketurtles said:

 

Psychedelics carry an inherent risk, some people genetically predisposed to mental illness it can either trigger it, or accelerate the development of it.  I have seen it occur first hand.

 

People who do random qigong exercises they make up, also can trigger manic episodes and psychosis with no drugs involved. 

 

This is known as kundalini and or qigong psychosis. 

 

I know a person who did third eye breathing and did no drugs at all and caused themselves to become so manic they couldn't sleep and kept calling me every night at 3:00 am to tell me about all the mysteries of the universe they were unraveling. 

 

So let's say you are smoking a lot of weed, taking a lot of shrooms and acid, and doing third eye breathing exercises you just made up on the fly...

 

It is not going to end well most likely. 

 

Red Phoenix Meditation by any chance?

 

On 07/02/2022 at 10:11 AM, freeform said:

Who dares to rouse me from my slumber!?!

 

Oh it’s @Salvijus - that’s alright then  

 

The brain in Daoist thought isn’t the centre of our consciousness or even thinking - it’s more like the transformer that takes in the totality of experience and steps it down and makes it experiencable  on the human scale.

 

Psychedelics effectively mess with this step down transformer. The result is that your perception is altered. 
 

What this means is that a psychedelic experience is largely limited to the capacity of your mind.
 

Meaning that however seemingly mystical or profound your experience may have been from a trip, it can never touch your spirit… your reach is limited to the human realm - and sometimes, with some shamanic training you can extend this reach to one level lower and one level higher - meaning you can access the realms of ghosts, plants, the earth… or even low level deities.
 

The majority of people don’t go beyond the mind. The amazing mystical experiences we have on psychedelics are at the level of the mind.

 

This can be a positive thing if one’s mental constructs are very firm. If you’re very stuck in your ways and your world is small… psychedelics can shake it up and show to you the nature of mind and how amazing, pliable and unfixed it actually is. 

 

This can have a profound effect on someone who had a very fixed idea of reality - and never considered that reality is so closely intertwined with perception. They can begin to see that reality is far more complex than they ever realised… they might begin to appreciate different perspectives and see things in a new light.

 

Apart from this paradigm shifting effect, psychedelics have little that would be of use to a cultivator.

One of my teachers mentioned that you can get stuck in a different realm… not every realm is suitable for humans, but you can easily get stuck there and not be able to return.

 

Mechanics wise - at least for mushrooms - they tend to quickly mobilise Jing and let it flood the Shen that feeds the mind and the brain. They suppress the Po - which gives the Hun some flexibility in its travels even though you’re not asleep.

 

Psychedelics (especially if you have a lot of qi) can be dangerous… as I said - you can enter other realms, and the thread holding your various bodies together can snap and you can get stuck.

 

Beyond a certain extent psychedelics are of no use to a cultivator. They’re also a little dangerous. if you’re interested in being a shaman and deal with spirits, ghosts and plant consciousness - then it’s useful, but get some decent shamanic training id suggest.

 

This is such an excellent summary of it! Thank you for this @freeform

 

Just on that...One key point id highlight here is that psychedelics do carry inherent risks at every level..be it the mind, or beyond like those with an abundance of qi, as freeform mentioned

 

People should think for a moment that often folk who take this substances never recover mentally...It happens ALL the time, and has been for as long as they have been around. That's what happens when you've no knowledge of it

 

The key here is that in the presence of folk privy to the actual mechanics of psychedelics (shamans) they can provide a depth of clarity, insight and wisdom no doctor, psychologist, psychiatrist or neuroscientist can or ever will be able to. Psychedelics work at the level of mind...and science knows nothing of it nor cannot deal with it...The mind is not the brain, much as reductive materialism might claim it to be.

 

That is why shamans can recommend to you what to take and why...they have knowledge of these matters

 

On 05/02/2022 at 5:12 PM, silent thunder said:

Disagree entirely.  First off,  work does not need to be labored, difficult, hard or even serious to be merit filled.  Only sincere.  And often playfulness brings access to layers of insight precluded by overly serious approaches.  To return to the state of childlike (*awe, wonder)  this is an inroad to Tao.

 

You project with your certainty claim on wisdom.  Perhaps you've not experienced insight or derived wisdom in this method, perhaps you've never even tried it and this is fine, but this does not make you an authority on the topic.  Nor does it mean it does not occur for others, so that claim is projection/illusion.

 

And as to addictive properties.  Hallucinogens do not carry these markers.  It's well documented and hallucinogens after 50 years of ostricization by the psychiatric community is finally being brought out again clinically, to great benefit in trauma healing/end of life/terminal diagnosis treatment.

 

After any travel that way, I have always reacted by wanting to process what I've experienced and another trip is never desired.  Months and years pass between the calls to travel.

 

To each their own mate. 

 

People become addicted via experience.

 

Biological markers are merely an effect...and a rather poor one in terms of measurement (pretty much all neuroscience is correlative). Behavioral ones are even worse (vulnerable to innumerable problems).

 

If you think psychedelics are being brought into the psychiatric community for the benefit of others....you need to take a good hard look at the way this industry operates. They are being brought in on the back of literally no understanding of the mechanics, no understanding of the casual link ( and no way to understand it) and an agenda to appropriate and profit by attempting to hijack the practices of ancient cultures. This is all happening with no real knowledge of their practices or principles...and no chance of getting it.

 

Freeform explained more in a paragraph than you'll get in decades of research on these substances.

 

But, even if we stick to the closed of keyhole of science, there is sparse evidence for their efficacy (scientifically speaking). I've looked into the trials and they are not robust at all....The studies are in their absolute infancy, and a quick dissection of the methodologies demonstrate a quite serious lack of rigour.

 

You might have enjoyed your experience with them...but the statements you are making here are a bit problematic

[silent thunder]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

You might have enjoyed your experience with them

 

Never said that mate.  I said they aided, challenged and rewarded.

Your assumptions reveal quite a bit.  Problematic or not for you, my words are an authentic reflection of my experience.

 

Many spokes make a wheel, they all meet at the emptiness in the center.

[Shadow_self]

12 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

 

Never said that mate.  I said they aided, challenged and rewarded.

Your assumptions reveal quite a bit.  Problematic or not for you, my words are an authentic reflection of my experience.

 

Many spokes make a wheel, they all meet at the emptiness in the center.

 

Your experience is not problematic for me at all. If you think hallucinogenics are something you can handle safely...that's up to you. 

 

I am however involved in the neuroscience/psychology side of things and am more than aware of the narratives currently being spun by certain groups...The reality of the situation is far from that which they paint. Hallucinogenics really have no place in the psychiatric community whatsoever...and I say that because the individuals attempting to make claim to them and control/regulate them have zero clue about any of the inherent risks associated....nor could they ever

 

Hence, my entire comment was really discussing the scientific component... and the pharma pursuit to commercialize these plant compounds. It is that which is problematic.  Apologies if it rubbed you the wrong way.

 

P.S : It might be helpful in this instance to look at the word rewarding in a thesaurus - you will find things like satisfying , pleasing, and so forth...you will find those very same terms under enjoyable  Unless I'm misreading what you said? 

[Nungali]

39 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Your experience is not problematic for me at all. If you think hallucinogenics are something you can handle safely...that's up to you. 

 

I am however involved in the neuroscience/psychology side of things and am more than aware of the narratives currently being spun by certain groups...The reality of the situation is far from that which they paint. Hallucinogenics really have no place in the psychiatric community whatsoever...and I say that because the individuals attempting to make claim to them and control/regulate them have zero clue about any of the inherent risks associated....nor could they ever

 

Wot , not even Robin Carhart-Harris, a psychologist and neuroscientist at Imperial College London,
and Head of the Centre for Psychedelic Research, Division of Brain Sciences and  ;

 

https://second.wiki/wiki/robin_carhart-harris

 

ONE case study ;

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00187-9

 

 

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Hence, my entire comment was really discussing the scientific component... and the pharma pursuit to commercialize these plant compounds. It is that which is problematic.  Apologies if it rubbed you the wrong way.

 

' Pharma pursuits' are always a problem .... with any substance .

 

39 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

P.S : It might be helpful in this instance to look at the word rewarding in a thesaurus - you will find things like satisfying , pleasing, and so forth...you will find those very same terms under enjoyable  Unless I'm misreading what you said? 

 

[Shadow_self]

21 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Wot , not even Robin Carhart-Harris, a psychologist and neuroscientist at Imperial College London,
and Head of the Centre for Psychedelic Research, Division of Brain Sciences and  ;

 

https://second.wiki/wiki/robin_carhart-harris

 

ONE case study ;

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00187-9

 

 

 

 

 

 

' Pharma pursuits' are always a problem .... with any substance .

 

 

 

I am more than aware of RCH's unwavering confirmation bias to his cause...hes just one of a few.

 

But feel free to pick any of those trials (literally any one) and we can discuss the issues with them...Make no mistake about it...trials, especially those in psychiatry are often set up to give a desired result...

 

Please note I said in the Psychiatric community...meaning the Likes of RCH or his cohort have no business administering these substances in a lab and doing mental leaps as to what might be happening....reductive materialism and the study of the mind do not sync up....

[Nungali]

' Personal accidental experience ' ;

 

Had a beautiful  ( physically and in spirit )  young part African girl staying here .  BAD anorexia ,  so much so if she lost any more weight ; into hospital against her will and  food tube up the nose .

 

So of course I wanted to 'wasup ? '  ... which of course required a 'way in ' ... to get trust , etc .  She eventually told me sh thought she didnt deserve food , she was worthless and useless , a waste of space , " Why should an animal or even a plant have to die to feed me ? "   I listened, didnt criticise and didnt judge , offer advice or anything .   From observing interactions with her father , and his subtle abuse ( and mom wasnt that great either ) , part of the problem was obvious .

 

Anyway, she starts running with the kids here her same age   ....   oh - o !   I mean, they where great kids but  ..... they lived here  .  She turns up at my place, middle of the night glowing  ;  " I ate psychedelic mushrooms ! "

 

Okay   beep  beep  beep   (Thats my sensor going off ! That censor that lets me know ' I am at a crucial cross roads for somewhere here , how I handle this could have a great impact , for much better or for much worse . ) . I knew her family would FREAK if they knew  ( other family members had now turned up for the weekend ) .   She was 'wide open' !

 

She had sought me out or was led here or just 'accidental stumbled' here   ( thank GOD ... the mushroom God that is )  my goodness , if she had gone home or elsewhere in that state ! .   Anyways, I know about set setting and etc . did all that , she seemed fine ... great actually and then she dropped the bomb , while trying to define what had /was happening to her  and burst out  " I FELL IN LOVE WITH MYSELF  ! "  .

 

She didnt start eating straight away .... subsequent therapy was required   ( cause she eventually did go home and what a furore ! ) her father called her a stupid little bitch that ruined everything , what sort of a place IS this  ? and he was going to take her to hospital ( she was  well on the way 'down' by then and someone else convinced him not to ) .

 

She would go to town with us (me and few others )   and we would go into cafe and order all this food . No one would ever say anything to her  , coax her, nothing , just eat in front of her  and she started  .... ' Can I have a bit of that . "   ( tough love ) ; " NO . Get your own . "     Ignore her .  Give it no energy whatsover .   She actually ordered something and ate a good part of it  .... and it didnt even make her throw up !   She had put on weight after 2 weeks and didnt have to go to hospital .

 

Unfortunately , it may not have lasted , hols over and off north back home with her father  (ughhh )  , who was still suffering  guilt and abuse from her mother for ever taking her to a place like that .

 

- they grow wild in the fields here . Not much we can do about it . Slashing them just spreads the spores .   They come up in my veg garden !    I dont take them though       ......   I gave up years back  .... didnt need the 'therapy any more '  (okay , no smart comments that     )  .

 

I was aware though when I had my last dose that ot would be my last , so I asked for a good trip ..... WOW !   Yep that did it . Dont need to take more after THAT anyway .

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

5 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I am more than aware of RCH's unwavering confirmation bias to his cause...hes just one of a few.

 

But feel free to pick any of those trials (literally any one) and we can discuss the issues with them...Make no mistake about it...trials, especially those in psychiatry are often set up to give a desired result...

 

Please note I said in the Psychiatric community...meaning the Likes of RCH or his cohort have no business administering these substances in a lab and doing mental leaps as to what might be happening....reductive materialism and the study of the mind do not sync up....

 

I will take that as a no then .

 

Does your  PERSONAL dislike  ( meaning 'dislike of the people) extend to the  University Departments involved as well ?

 

( Wow.... I wonder what he thinks of Lily , Leary , etc   ....

 

< ducks and runs for cover >    )

Edited February 11, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

Its not a new thing actually . . In the 1950s and 1960s, scientists published more than 1,000 articles on using psychedelics as a psychiatric treatment; the drugs were tested on around 40,000 people in total.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Nungali

[Shadow_self]

15 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Does your  PERSONAL dislike  ( meaning 'dislike of the people) extend to the  University Departments involved as well ?

 

( Wow.... I wonder what he thinks of Lily , Leary , etc   ....

 

< ducks and runs for cover >    )

 

I have an overarching dislike for any person, group or organization who masquerades their attempt to mainstream a substance for profit making as an attempt to "help people". Moreover, I have a further dislike for those who place "psychologists" as "supportive staff" for those going through a psychedelic experience...

 

Watch the space..and see how many pharma companies he will become involved with as a "scientific advisor"..no different than the ones who pushed the SSRI and benzodiazepine fad of the current times...fat pockets and plenty of harm to boot....Heres a rundown from his CV to date

 

https://neuroscape.ucsf.edu/wp-content/uploads/rch_CV_full_22_03_21_full.pdf

 

It is the height of ignorance and stupidity to assume that you understand the risks of altering the mind, when you haven't the first clue what it is or how it works

 

Psychology and Psychiatry both fall flat as explanatory for the human mind...they cant even agree on the effects...I'm sure you are aware of the unification and replication crises...not to mention the constant, drastic methodological errors.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Shadow_self]

18 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Its not a new thing actually . . In the 1950s and 1960s, scientists published more than 1,000 articles on using psychedelics as a psychiatric treatment; the drugs were tested on around 40,000 people in total.

 

They had no business using them then, and have no business using them now...And 70 years later they still haven't a clue and are just further digging holes. You might not be privy to how the psychiatric industry works...I happen to be...and this "reinvigoration" is nothing more than an attempt to divert attention away from blinding issues such as this

 

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20080227/antidepressants-no-better-than-placebo#:~:text=Antidepressants vs.,of the journal PLoS Medicine.

 

Psychiatry isn't a science....Neither is psychology for that matter...and neuroscience is just correlative mental leaping..

 

The human mind is not quantitative....regardless of how desperately they want it to be...and chasing after blips on an EEG or a bit of blood movement from an fMRI whilst using what is really a nonrepresentative measure of mental responses just does not cut it in any shape or form

 

And you might wonder how a person in the field can speak like that (quite hypocritical one could argue) ...the answer is simple....observation and a refusal to be wooed by headlines and sensationalism

 

But like I said...go pick any trial...from the past or present...Ill gladly systematically pick it apart piece by piece

[Nungali]

3 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I have an overarching dislike for any person, group or organization who masquerades their attempt to mainstream a substance for profit making as an attempt to "help people". Moreover, I have a further dislike for those who place "psychologists" as "supportive staff" for those going through a psychedelic experience...

 

Even Jungian ones ?

 

 

3 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

It is the height of ignorance and stupidity to assume that you understand the risks of altering the mind, when you haven't the first clue what it is or how it works

 

Hmmm ....  I guess, thats why I dont 'administer' the substances . However that is exactly how I went into it myself .. and here's the thing  ... due to that I now have a lot of 'clues' on what it is and how it works . . . . well , my mind  that is . Not someone else's I seen how some people CAN react already .

 

Actually , I already have enough problems in the past with people visiting and informing how much better they feel  ...... now they have stopped taking their medications  ....

 

Beep !   Beep !   Beeeeeeeep !

 

3 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Psychology and Psychiatry both fall flat as explanatory for the human mind...they cant even agree on the effects...I'm sure you are aware of the unification and replication crises...not to mention the constant, drastic methodological errors.

 

Mmmmm ... yeah I suppose so .  For me , it would depend on the type of psychiatrist , individually . They can always 'supplement ' from other sources .   

 

I would prefer that happening  rather than what IS happening around here ; self styled shaman distributing it , some 'kung fu spiritual master ' who a very disturbed woman I know is getting it from ... wot a mess !   A new 'centre ' opening  (illegally and underground  ) offering all sorts of experience ; Ayahuasca weekends  ( with 'shaman' present  )  

 

 

 

[Nungali]

3 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

They had no business using them then, and have no business using them now...And 70 years later they still haven't a clue and are just further digging holes. You might not be privy to how the psychiatric industry works...I happen to be...and this "reinvigoration" is nothing more than an attempt to divert attention away from blinding issues such as this

 

I got benefit from them . I am glad they 'broke the ground' . 

 

I claim to  I have a strong, balanced, happy fulfilled  and healthy psychology . 

 

 

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20080227/antidepressants-no-better-than-placebo#:~:text=Antidepressants vs.,of the journal PLoS Medicine.

 

Really ?  There is a plot amongst psychiatrists and University faculties to dope up the unsuspecting to try and cover up some dodgy research  in other areas of psychology ?

 

Okey dokey ! 

 

 

You do realise such 'expose' can be made in all the sciences , even the hard ones ?

 

Even against the whole way the current 'scientific method' is worked ?

 

 

3 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Psychiatry isn't a science....Neither is psychology for that matter...and neuroscience is just correlative mental leaping..

 

'Soft science'   , I do understand it isnt maths or engineering .

 

 

3 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

The human mind is not quantitative....regardless of how desperately they want it to be...and chasing after blips on an EEG or a bit of blood movement from an fMRI whilst using what is really a nonrepresentative measure of mental responses just does not cut it in any shape or form

 

And you might wonder how a person in the field can speak like that (quite hypocritical one could argue) ...the answer is simple....observation and a refusal to be wooed by headlines and sensationalism.

 

Nah . I know people in other fields of science  similar complaints !

 

3 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

But like I said...go pick any trial...from the past or present...Ill gladly systematically pick it apart piece by piece

 

 

Well, if you feel you really need to .... actually all I did was ask  "   Wot , not even Robin Carhart-Harris, "  .

 

I think you answered 'no'   to   that.         

 

But hey, if you need to pick a trial apart - go for it  .... you can even pick the trial .  

 

And I bet I can top it with some of the stuff I was served up at Uni    

 

( eg . regarding fossil reconstructions  ... they are supposed to be a science to  .... or  I could direct  you to a paper on 'Outdated Empire based interpretations in archaeology .' )

[freeform]

9 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

The key here is that in the presence of folk privy to the actual mechanics of psychedelics (shamans) they can provide a depth of clarity, insight and wisdom no doctor, psychologist, psychiatrist or neuroscientist can or ever will be able to.

I know a guy who apprenticed with (what sounded to me like) a genuine shaman.

90% of the substances they used during the apprenticeship were not psychoactive at all… he went a whole year of this as a preparation before ever taking psychoactive compounds in ceremonies.

 

9 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

agenda to appropriate and profit

That’s my concern too.
 

[silent thunder]

7 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I am more than aware of RCH's unwavering confirmation bias to his cause

We're picking up on yours as well...

 

 

[Shadow_self]

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Even Jungian ones ?

 

 

 

Hmmm ....  I guess, thats why I dont 'administer' the substances . However that is exactly how I went into it myself .. and here's the thing  ... due to that I now have a lot of 'clues' on what it is and how it works . . . . well , my mind  that is . Not someone else's I seen how some people CAN react already .

 

Actually , I already have enough problems in the past with people visiting and informing how much better they feel  ...... now they have stopped taking their medications  ....

 

Beep !   Beep !   Beeeeeeeep !

 

 

Mmmmm ... yeah I suppose so .  For me , it would depend on the type of psychiatrist , individually . They can always 'supplement ' from other sources .   

 

I would prefer that happening  rather than what IS happening around here ; self styled shaman distributing it , some 'kung fu spiritual master ' who a very disturbed woman I know is getting it from ... wot a mess !   A new 'centre ' opening  (illegally and underground  ) offering all sorts of experience ; Ayahuasca weekends  ( with 'shaman' present  )  

 

 

 

 

Yes Jungian ones too...Jung was quite confused about many things. Some things he got right...some things he did not. His understanding of alchemy is a good example. It is unfortunate in some senses...because he did have some worthwhile knowledge. The centres you speak of are the flip side of the same coin...They equally have no business administering these substances....and they are facilitated by this sudden "mainstream" interest. 

Like I said...if someone feels up to taking the risk of a trip...that is their business. I have no issue with it...It is the appropriation, exploitation, legislation and administration off the back of a false knowledge base and zero understanding of the mechanics that I have a problem with. 

 

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I got benefit from them . I am glad they 'broke the ground' . 

 

I claim to  I have a strong, balanced, happy fulfilled  and healthy psychology . 

 

 

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20080227/antidepressants-no-better-than-placebo#:~:text=Antidepressants vs.,of the journal PLoS Medicine.

 

Really ?  There is a plot amongst psychiatrists and University faculties to dope up the unsuspecting to try and cover up some dodgy research  in other areas of psychology ?

 

Okey dokey ! 

 

 

You do realise such 'expose' can be made in all the sciences , even the hard ones ?

 

Even against the whole way the current 'scientific method' is worked ?

 

 

 

'Soft science'   , I do understand it isnt maths or engineering .

 

 

 

Nah . I know people in other fields of science  similar complaints !

 

 

 

Well, if you feel you really need to .... actually all I did was ask  "   Wot , not even Robin Carhart-Harris, "  .

 

I think you answered 'no'   to   that.         

 

But hey, if you need to pick a trial apart - go for it  .... you can even pick the trial .  

 

And I bet I can top it with some of the stuff I was served up at Uni    

 

( eg . regarding fossil reconstructions  ... they are supposed to be a science to  .... or  I could direct  you to a paper on 'Outdated Empire based interpretations in archaeology .' )

 

Im sorry but you are incorrect. It isnt a hard science, nor a soft science. It is a hybrid attempt to bridge a gap between arts and the sciences, which it fails at. You cannot quantify the mind. A rudimentary understanding of the nature of the soul and spirit will facilitate ones understanding as to why this is the case. Funnily enough, these things are readily rejected by science...it isn't within their ability to ever understand these matters...Hence my point

 

Yes I do realise the inherent weaknesses in the method.. all of it. I spend a good portion of my time un-indoctrinating people who fall into the fallacy of believing in this is actually a sound knowledge base

 

As for a "plot". Well no...universities are not plotting with Pharma...

 

What is happening is a few people who have some sliver of decency left in their soul question the status quo. They do work and expose the current facade...so then the pharma companies tend to go elsewhere..the "next big thing"...and they line the pockets of researchers, put them in well paid positions as "advisors to give them the results they want...In return they get huge grants, fame and lots of personal wealth...and the companies... they have their "evidence base" which is basically a licence to operate in todays environment.

 

That is currently what is happening with the whole psychedelics interest. @freeformwords ring true...the vast majority of shamanic treatments don't involve psychedelics. No individual has any business laying claim to this stuff off the back of pretending they understand how it works, and basically building the bridge for big pharma to come in, appropriate this, regulate it and so forth

 

I've seen this film before, and I know how it ends...By the way of mass administration...they might help a few...they will harm a lot more...But then that's what science does right? Anyone thinking it "solves" problems really hasn't spent long enough at it to read between the lines.

 

[Shadow_self]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

I know a guy who apprenticed with (what sounded to me like) a genuine shaman.

90% of the substances they used during the apprenticeship were not psychoactive at all… he went a whole year of this as a preparation before ever taking psychoactive compounds in ceremonies.

 

That’s my concern too.
 

Yes, because I imagine they most likely had access to insight above and beyond most peoples. You may elaborate, But as I understand it...these shamans have an affinity to working with things like stilling the Jing. Their severe diets are an indication of it. I'm reminded of those in deep alchemical training when I contrast.

 

I think anyone who understands anything about esoteric matters would share your concerns. 

 

It is lost on a lot of people...but then they don't get it that a lot of individuals tend to suffer immensely when they are exposed to their own mind...More than are helped in my experience...particularly when it comes to the psychiatric community 

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, silent thunder said:

We're picking up on yours as well...

 

 

 

Calling a situation for what it is, Is not confirmation bias...but by all means we can discuss that if you want...Care to tell me whats the issue with anything ive stated?

 

But while we are here...Running into your own mind isn't some profound experience one needs to take a substance for...and for anyone without an abundance of qi....that's whats happening...Moving between "realms" requires fuel. Fuel pretty much anyone feeling the need to take psychedelics probably does not have. And if you did, by chance happen to have it for whatever reason...without the cultivational qualities derived from esoteric training...you run the very real risk of "getting stuck"...amongst other things

 

The reality of the situation is a bit bleaker, but freeform stated it. You cant touch on spirit with mushrooms or psychedelics. So, as is the case with most folk... when you are running into your own mind, it is still delusion. This happens when you fall asleep, and at the first point of death. Most people are so busy with their own mind  pouring out when they die, it dictates their next incarnation..particularly the facets which have buried deep. And as for dreams with all their weird symbology, well that's the same thing...what distinguishes sleep and trips is the nature of your conscious awareness really....death is a bit trickier

 

So you could literally train yourself to enter into these states between waking and sleeping...it isn't even hard to be honest...the method and a little perseverance and the subconscious mind is easily accessed, and can be overcome to an extent. As time goes on, the Hun can interface with you and premonitions can become the norm (dreamless sleep should occur in all other cases). If you cultivate to a high level the mind no longer blocks it with all its delusions 

 

There is an exception to the rule here...which is trance states. If you get the right training, you can learn to navigate the mind, and in some manners, cultivate the quality of wisdom, whereby you gain insight into things like the nature of causality...combined with energetics and ritual work, this can be quite profound. Because you start to be able to navigate chains of causality temporally...past, present and future. 

 

This is why shamanism focuses so heavily on trance states as opposed to meditation. It is a means to access and navigate the mental world, and one level above and below humanity with extra training ( as freeform kindly pointed out)

Edited February 11, 2022 by Shadow_self

[liminal_luke]

Those who have read my recent vaccine rants will not be surprised to hear that I'm no friend to Big Pharma.  Psychiatric medications, in particular, seem especially suspect.  I read holistic psychiatrist Kelly Brogan's anti-drug screed, A Mind of Your Own, and was fully prepared to join her rebel forces.  And then my partner attempted suicide.  Multiple times.  Waiting in a hospital reception area, my resistance to conventional medicine softened.  My partner is now on multiple psych meds and has racked up several years without trying to take his own life.  Is it placebo?  Could be but I don't care.  I've seen firsthand how psychiatric medications can bring a person out from the nightmare of psychosis and I'm so grateful for antipsychotics and antidepressants I could dance. Could my partner have achieved his present level of health through paleo dieting, regular exercise, and daily handfuls of vitamins and supplements?  Maybe but not everyone with mental health challenges is willing to make that kind of life overhaul.  

 

Pharmaceutical companies are motivated by profit rather than a do-gooder desire to alleviate suffering.  I know that.  The situation isn't ideal but if psychoactive plants help some people feel better -- and there's some evidence that they do -- I'm all for it.  Mushrooms for the win.

Edited February 11, 2022 by liminal_luke

[Cleansox]

17 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

 

Pharmaceutical companies are motivated by profit rather than a do-gooder desire to alleviate suffering.  

And what motivates a do-gooder? 

Does a do-gooder's method always alleviate suffering? 

[Shadow_self]

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Those who have read my recent vaccine rants will not be surprised to hear that I'm no friend to Big Pharma.  Psychiatric medications, in particular, seem especially suspect.  I read holistic psychiatrist Kelly Brogan's anti-drug screed, A Mind of Your Own, and was fully prepared to join her rebel forces.  And then my partner attempted suicide.  Multiple times.  Waiting in a hospital reception area, my resistance to conventional medicine softened.  My partner is now on multiple psych meds and has racked up several years without trying to take his own life.  Is it placebo?  Could be but I don't care.  I've seen firsthand how psychiatric medications can bring a person out from the nightmare of psychosis and I'm so grateful for antipsychotics and antidepressants I could dance. Could my partner have achieved his present level of health through paleo dieting, regular exercise, and daily handfuls of vitamins and supplements?  Maybe but not everyone with mental health challenges is willing to make that kind of life overhaul.  

 

Pharmaceutical companies are motivated by profit rather than a do-gooder desire to alleviate suffering.  I know that.  The situation isn't ideal but if psychoactive plants help some people feel better -- and there's some evidence that they do -- I'm all for it.  Mushrooms for the win.

 

29 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Those who have read my recent vaccine rants will not be surprised to hear that I'm no friend to Big Pharma.  Psychiatric medications, in particular, seem especially suspect.  I read holistic psychiatrist Kelly Brogan's anti-drug screed, A Mind of Your Own, and was fully prepared to join her rebel forces.  And then my partner attempted suicide.  Multiple times.  Waiting in a hospital reception area, my resistance to conventional medicine softened.  My partner is now on multiple psych meds and has racked up several years without trying to take his own life.  Is it placebo?  Could be but I don't care.  I've seen firsthand how psychiatric medications can bring a person out from the nightmare of psychosis and I'm so grateful for antipsychotics and antidepressants I could dance. Could my partner have achieved his present level of health through paleo dieting, regular exercise, and daily handfuls of vitamins and supplements?  Maybe but not everyone with mental health challenges is willing to make that kind of life overhaul.  

 

Pharmaceutical companies are motivated by profit rather than a do-gooder desire to alleviate suffering.  I know that.  The situation isn't ideal but if psychoactive plants help some people feel better -- and there's some evidence that they do -- I'm all for it.  Mushrooms for the win.

Antipsychotics and Antidepressants cause far more problems than they alleviate

 

Yet, you  ignore the fact that all three substances...Antipsychotics, Antidepressants and Psychedelics pretty much cause more harm than they fix in the vast majority of people. Those that benefit are few, and in most cases it is either placebo or suggestion or some other design flaw...It is a very small minority of people who require antipsychotics

 

Paleo diets, vitamins and exercise are besides the point. It is the mind that needs to be fixed...and it doesnt require a substance to fix it....but plenty of them can break it far more than it is already

 

But hey, if you are all for more harm than help coloured by your personal experience...more power to you. Just know it has been that attitude that has led to the current predicament of substance abuse and misuse

 

BTW that's coming from someone who's dealt and been around multiple people personally and professionally with all manner of mental illnesses....schizophrenia, OCD, depression, BPD, Personality disorders, addicts, suicide attemptees ADHD, Autism...you name it....and all other manner of psychological disturbances

 

The harms of the vaccine, at present, are but a blip compared to the damage the pseudoscience of psychiatry has done