Using psychedelics for cultivation or any other spiritual system.

[liminal_luke]

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Antipsychotics and Antidepressants cause far more problems than they alleviate

 

 

Are psychiatric medications overprescribed?  Probably.  Do they have harmful side effects?  Most definitely.  We live in an imperfect world full of problems for which there are only imperfect solutions.  I don't think it's fair to characterize me as someone who is "all for more harm than help" because I've helped my partner access conventional medical treatment. If people are able to address their mental health needs without pills, that's wonderful.  But I refuse to secondguess the choices of those who, in consultation with a medical professional, decide that pills are the way to go.  Do you run some sort of nonpharmaceutical treatment program for chronic mental illness?  Are you willing to relocate to Ensenada, Mexico?  Or perhaps you can recommend a local practitioner of your method?  If not, don't judge me.  You have no idea.

Edited February 11, 2022 by liminal_luke

[helpfuldemon]

Psychedelics remove ego barriers and tear down conditioning.  It isn't wisdom, but it is a way to see beyond what you believe.

 

The first time I smoked pot I laughed for three hours.  The last time I smoked it I writhed on the floor begging for it to end for the same amount of time.

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Are psychiatric medications overprescribed?  Probably.  Do they have harmful side effects?  Most definitely.  We live in an imperfect world full of problems for which there are only imperfect solutions.  I don't think it's fair to characterize me as someone who is "all for more harm than help" because I've helped my partner access conventional medical treatment. If people are able to address their mental health needs without pills, that's wonderful.  But I refuse to second guess the choices of those who, in consultation with a medical professional, decide that pills are the way to go.  Do you run some sort of nonpharmaceutical treatment program for chronic mental illness?  Are you willing to relocate to Ensenada, Mexico?  Or perhaps you can recommend a local practitioner of your method?  If not, don't judge me.  You have no idea.

 

Are psychiatric medications overprescribed? Probably

Replace probably with definitely

 

Do they have harmful side effects?  Most definitely

The question is, do the ends justify the means...and in the case we are talking about the answer is a resounding no...Another question is..do you have any idea just how harmful?

 

I don't think it's fair to characterize me as someone who is "all for more harm than help"

If you are all for psychedelics being appropriated, exploited, regulated and mainstreamed according to the trajectory that big pharma and the likes of RCH are currently headed down...if you are any bit for that even...then yes, unfortunately you are supporting more harm than help.

 

That doesn't mean that's a principle you live by...I am talking specifically about the domain under discussion...FYI...the current knowledge base is that they do more harm than good...the agenda is now to overturn that because the SSRI cracks are starting to show

 

I refuse to second guess the choices of those who, in consultation with a medical professional, decide that pills are the way to go

Here's where that argument falls down. It is the labelling abnormal mental patterns a "medical issue" and expecting pills to be the answer...Since when did medicine have the first clue about how the mind works?

 

No I think you'll find in order to get to matters pertaining to the mind (and beyond) One needs to step firmly away from reductive materialism and all of its offspring. But, if you feel comfortable placing your trust in an institution that has zero knowledge of these matters...proceed as you wish.

 

However...do feel free to show me where matters pertaining to medicine and the mind meet with a clarity of understanding...because the mind is not a part of the body, and medicine cannot, by its very nature deal with matters that are nonphysical. You understand the hard problem of consciousness I presume?

 

Do you run some sort of nonpharmaceutical treatment program for chronic mental illness?

No...I just have seen enough science to know that it is crooked to the core, enough psychiatry to know it is a non runner, and enough people get better from methods that work with either the body & mind ( or mind directly in milder cases) to know that the answer is not sitting at the bottom of a jar of pills, from transcranial magnetic stimulation, from psychedelics or from people pontificating over a series of nonunified split assumptions about how the mind works.

 

You cannot fix the mind unless you understand the roots of the causality chain causing the issue...and a lot of the time...the problem is one related not to a situation, but rather, one related to an inability to accept emotional suffering as a product of said situation.

Acceptance of suffering, believe it or not...is a major barrier for most people. Nobody wants to suffer, and yet we all must in some shape or form. It is whether we pick up our cross and carry it, or refuse to accept that burden that is a major, major problem

 

Are you willing to relocate to Ensenada, Mexico?  Or perhaps you can recommend a local practitioner of your method?

Nope and It is nothing to do with my method at all...Alternative medicines and practices have been around since forever...the problem is access to authentic people who can really help you...Not charlatans or wishful thinkers

 

You have no idea.

I'm fairly sure I do...I may not know you...but I know that situation you described all too well

 

To repeat myself, I seen more of these problems than I would care to admit...Young men hanging themselves from fences in local communities, doorways using ties, being cut down from trees by their partners... overdoses and deaths from benzo's, antipsychotics and other drugs given by doctors...psychotic folk who do believe that their smartphone is giving them orders to march, aim and take cover...handwashing so extreme that layers of skin have been removed and bleeding is an everyday thing...People afraid to leave their house long before COVID was a thing...I could write a book ( and I am a young man myself)

 

So yes I do understand the desperate need for anything that will help...And your situation, while it means the world to you (As have some of mine to me) ...is inconsequential to the larger events taking place on a worldwide scale...there is a very big problem with trying to use a substance to fix the mind, especially when you don't understand the mind

[Bindi]

49 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Are psychiatric medications overprescribed? Probably

Replace probably with definitely

 

Do they have harmful side effects?  Most definitely

The question is, do the ends justify the means...and in the case we are talking about the answer is a resounding no...Another question is..do you have any idea just how harmful?

 

I don't think it's fair to characterize me as someone who is "all for more harm than help"

If you are all for psychedelics being appropriated, exploited, regulated and mainstreamed according to the trajectory that big pharma and the likes of RCH are currently headed down...if you are any bit for that even...then yes, unfortunately you are supporting more harm than help.

 

That doesn't mean that's a principle you live by...I am talking specifically about the domain under discussion...FYI...the current knowledge base is that they do more harm than good...the agenda is now to overturn that because the SSRI cracks are starting to show

 

I refuse to second guess the choices of those who, in consultation with a medical professional, decide that pills are the way to go

Here's where that argument falls down. It is the labelling abnormal mental patterns a "medical issue" and expecting pills to be the answer...Since when did medicine have the first clue about how the mind works?

 

No I think you'll find in order to get to matters pertaining to the mind (and beyond) One needs to step firmly away from reductive materialism and all of its offspring. But, if you feel comfortable placing your trust in an institution that has zero knowledge of these matters...proceed as you wish.

 

However...do feel free to show me where matters pertaining to medicine and the mind meet with a clarity of understanding...because the mind is not a part of the body, and medicine cannot, by its very nature deal with matters that are nonphysical. You understand the hard problem of consciousness I presume?

 

Do you run some sort of nonpharmaceutical treatment program for chronic mental illness?

No...I just have seen enough science to know that it is crooked to the core, enough psychiatry to know it is a non runner, and enough people get better from methods that work with either the body & mind ( or mind directly in milder cases) to know that the answer is not sitting at the bottom of a jar of pills, from transcranial magnetic stimulation, from psychedelics or from people pontificating over a series of nonunified split assumptions about how the mind works.

 

You cannot fix the mind unless you understand the roots of the causality chain causing the issue...and a lot of the time...the problem is one related not to a situation, but rather, one related to an inability to accept emotional suffering as a product of said situation.

Acceptance of suffering, believe it or not...is a major barrier for most people. Nobody wants to suffer, and yet we all must in some shape or form. It is whether we pick up our cross and carry it, or refuse to accept that burden that is a major, major problem

 

Absolutely the conclusion I have come to. My method has always been first examining and then allowing each sliver of suffering, over time I have developed a working understanding of how suffering relates to the subtle energy body because this is what fascinates me. 
 

49 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Are you willing to relocate to Ensenada, Mexico?  Or perhaps you can recommend a local practitioner of your method?

Nope and It is nothing to do with my method at all...Alternative medicines and practices have been around since forever...the problem is access to authentic people who can really help you...Not charlatans or wishful thinkers

 

You have no idea.

I'm fairly sure I do...I may not know you...but I know that situation you described all too well

 

To repeat myself, I seen more of these problems than I would care to admit...Young men hanging themselves from fences in local communities, doorways using ties, being cut down from trees by their partners... overdoses and deaths from benzo's, antipsychotics and other drugs given by doctors...psychotic folk who do believe that their smartphone is giving them orders to march, aim and take cover...handwashing so extreme that layers of skin have been removed and bleeding is an everyday thing...People afraid to leave their house long before COVID was a thing...I could write a book ( and I am a young man myself)

 

So yes I do understand the desperate need for anything that will help...And your situation, while it means the world to you (As have some of mine to me) ...is inconsequential to the larger events taking place on a worldwide scale...there is a very big problem with trying to use a substance to fix the mind, especially when you don't understand the mind

 

[helpfuldemon]

I have a mental illness and without the medication I take Id be psychotic and hospitalized, so I'm going to disagree with you that they are more harm than help.  

[liminal_luke]

Thanks for speaking up, @helpfuldemon.  To me, your perspective is the most important and relevant to this particular tributary of the thread.

[Chainikas]

Psychiatric medications almost killed me. They destroyed my mental and physical health, made me very suicidal for long period. Also quitting them was agony, i prayed for death many months.

There is post here in healing circle where i was begging for help.

For me its hard to imagine they can be heal, maybe not helpful at best.

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

I have a mental illness and without the medication I take Id be psychotic and hospitalized, so I'm going to disagree with you that they are more harm than help.  

 

Suffering is inherent to samsara and part of the human condition...

 

You'll find that when you're willing to go with it...Life becomes much easier. No matter how bad it is, someone has it worse...so either be sad about how bad it is, or be grateful it isn't as bad as the other person.It is really a matter of perspective...and in fact a lot of " mental illness" from the depressive and anxiety categories do indeed have these matters at their very core...amongst other things.

 

Meanwhile, the psychiatric community have convinced the general public that depression is "a chemical imbalance". 

[Lairg]

Some years ago a local journalist with no known psychological issues decided to try anti-depressants.   Within 2 weeks he was suicidal.  So he stopped taking them and produced a radio show about the results.

 

I had a close female friend taking anti-depressants.  She became emotionally remote while on them.  

 

 

[ralis]

38 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Suffering is inherent to samsara and part of the human condition...

 

You'll find that when you're willing to go with it...Life becomes much easier. No matter how bad it is, someone has it worse...so either be sad about how bad it is, or be grateful it isn't as bad as the other person.It is really a matter of perspective...and in fact a lot of " mental illness" from the depressive and anxiety categories do indeed have these matters at their very core...amongst other things.

 

Meanwhile, the psychiatric community have convinced the general public that depression is "a chemical imbalance". 

Not everyone suffers as Buddhists so claim. I really tire of absolute sweeping generalizations! 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

I have a mental illness and without the medication I take Id be psychotic and hospitalized, so I'm going to disagree with you that they are more harm than help.  

 

And I know plenty like you (including a family member who has lost higher cognitive faculties as a result of long term antipsychotics) ..but I said the vast majority...not absolutely everyone 100% all the time.... Sorry for your suffering.

 

Note how freeform mentioned earlier that the brain is like a step down transformer....it makes our experience human and relatable...Antipsychotics are known to reduce brain volume and activity and this is time and dose dependant...IE the amount of time you take them and how much you take will mess with your brain volume (amongst a whole raft of other things). This effect is particularly potent in the pituitary gland, and the pineal gland is already reduced in size in schizophrenics, and shows increased calcification. So when you are talking about disorders of the mind, and you are taking a substance which messes with these two glands in a major way....The long term outcome isn't going to be good, at all. Also, that reduction in pineal size is specific to the likes of schizophrenia and associated disorders, it does not carry over to mood disorders

 

If you think about what happens when you take psychedelics vs what happens a person during psychosis...and you read between some of the lines in what was posted in the thread. You should be able to begin to form a picture of what happens to people during schizotypal and psychotic illness...The very fact that psychedelics can and often do trigger these things should be a giveaway..I've left a few hints throughout the thread...I wont be elaborating further though

 

So you can disagree with me if you wish, I have no problem with that. I'm just telling you it is well documented that for the vast majority of people...medication does far more harm than good...yet in that same note....you have people being given antipsychotics because they have trouble sleeping ( a commonly accepted medical practice, yet actually further screwing up the Pineal Gland)

 

All of this this is done in the name, not of solving a problem, rather, a means of tricking the brain into thinking there isn't one while the negative effects accumulate and the root of the problem never dissipates

 

If you feel like that's a good treatment and are happy with it, more power to you...though I would suggest looking into TCM....Wendan Decoction is something that I've known to be used to great effect.

[Shadow_self]

26 minutes ago, ralis said:

Not everyone suffers as Buddhists so claim. I really tire of absolute sweeping generalizations! 

 

I'm not a Buddhist at all...but there is no human born who does not suffer...the intensity, duration and frequency may be variable, but there is nobody removed from it entirely.

 

I'm sure you understand this, so Ill assume you are referring to something else rather than a black/white scenario?

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Chainikas said:

Psychiatric medications almost killed me. They destroyed my mental and physical health, made me very suicidal for long period. Also quitting them was agony, i prayed for death many months.

There is post here in healing circle where i was begging for help.

For me its hard to imagine they can be heal, maybe not helpful at best.

 

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

Some years ago a local journalist with no known psychological issues decided to try anti-depressants.   Within 2 weeks he was suicidal.  So he stopped taking them and produced a radio show about the results.

 

I had a close female friend taking anti-depressants.  She became emotionally remote while on them.  

 

 

 

These are both fairly common reactions....A most common side effect is "the inability to feel".  As humans process things though the emotions, this is extremely problematic...

 

There is a huge difference between mastering the emotions through practice vs having a substance constrain and suppress them.

[AstralProjectee]

On 2/4/2022 at 8:09 AM, Salvijus said:

What is your opinion about using psychedelics to progress on the path? Are there any dangers to it? On which conditions and to what extent are they useful in your opinion?

 

Would like to expand my understanding on this subject. Would appreaciate some insights into it if somebody has any. 

I've done psychedelics. Yes psychedelics can absolutely help on the spiritual path, as long they are used with respect, and with a end goal in mind and some sort of integration. Having a proper set, setting, and sitter is also paramount. Check out Leo Gura on the topic of spirituality and psychedelics, he's like a rock star when it comes to integrating the psychedelics experience in real life. 

[ralis]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

These are both fairly common reactions....A most common side effect is "the inability to feel".  As humans process things though the emotions, this is extremely problematic...

 

There is a huge difference between mastering the emotions through practice vs having a substance constrain and suppress them.

 

All humans process through emotions? I disagree with reductionist generalized statements in which complex evolutiontionary processes are not considered, which is a complex subject and far beyond the scope of this thread. Further, one persons so called realization some 2500 years ago in which life was reduced to a few points such as all life is suffering due to emotional poisons, ego attachment etc. doesn't necessarily apply. This is the problem with religions that reduce life to a few simplistic suppositions. A few simplistic postulates traps one seeking answers to life problems. 

[helpfuldemon]

Yes it's true that you lose some cognitive faculty, but it is those faculties that are misfiring.  Perhaps some therapies could help in some cases, and they are over prescribing, but in my case, I need it.

[Lairg]

Don Juan tells Castaneda  that it is necessary to establish a proper relationship with the beings that overlight the psychedelic plants before using them.

 

I am not sure how to do that with pharmaceutical products.   We are on our own in strange worlds

[Cleansox]

33 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

I am not sure how to do that with pharmaceutical products. 

Just pay the Man 😁

[Cleansox]

12 hours ago, Chainikas said:

Psychiatric medications almost killed me. They destroyed my mental and physical health, made me very suicidal for long period. 

Why did you start taking them? 

[Cleansox]

Most of the critique against psychiatric medication here is correct. Most have side effects, some antidepressants have a period in the beginning where one gets worse including suicidal, and the heavier meds cut away both emotions and some cognitive function. And a bunch of them have the efficiency at the level of placebo. 

 

On the other hand, every time a person have a manic or psychotic episode, that person loose a chunk of cognitive function. If unattended to, every such episode increases the risk of suicide. And even before the rise of psychiatry, people with severe mental health problems were locked up or banished from their social group, at least in the western historical context. 

 

Non-pharmacological treatments demands more resources, both financial from society and motivational and cognitive from the patient. So, there is a problem on that side as well, even before discussing if the treat

treatment offered is relevant to the problem at hand. 

 

There are many psychotherapies offered, but: Ever heard of clinical detoriation and retraumatization? 

 

Searching help in the spiritual community? People actually trigger mental health issues in meditative and energy based practices. 

A few teachers claim to know how to fix that, but there are not enough qualified teachers willing to engage in patients with mental health issues, so obviously that is not an available solution at present. 

 

Really messed up, the whole business... 

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, ralis said:

 

All humans process through emotions? I disagree with reductionist generalized statements in which complex evolutiontionary processes are not considered, which is a complex subject and far beyond the scope of this thread. Further, one persons so called realization some 2500 years ago in which life was reduced to a few points such as all life is suffering due to emotional poisons, ego attachment etc. doesn't necessarily apply. This is the problem with religions that reduce life to a few simplistic suppositions. A few simplistic postulates traps one seeking answers to life problems. 

 

You can disagree with whatever you like, it does not make you correct.

 

Humans process sensation, perception and thought via the bridge of emotion. Would you like to talk about the ones who struggle with this, such as those with alexithymia and so forth?

 

The problem is that suffering is inherent to life, it permeates all aspects of it. That has nothing to do with religion, it is a byproduct of existence as an entity which has needs which must be met, and residence in an environment where the mind (via the sense faculties) is tricked into believing it needs things it does not, and corresponding neural networks are reshaped in the transformer accordingly....the further removed you become from the latter, the less complex it becomes.

 

Go ask a tribal person if they are worried about Instagram pictures, or what brand of sneakers they have. No, they wont be...but you will find they might have concerns such as food, shelter and safety (amongst other things)

[Shadow_self]

6 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Yes it's true that you lose some cognitive faculty, but it is those faculties that are misfiring.  Perhaps some therapies could help in some cases, and they are over prescribing, but in my case, I need it.

 

Unfortunately, the issue is not that those faculties are misfiring, that is an effect, not a cause, and an oversimplification of processes that psychiatrists generally don't understand in the first place

 

There is something else at play. I have already explained to you regards the shrinkage and abnormalities of the pineal and pituitary in these types of disorders. Oddly enough, drugs like olanzapine further mess up melatonin secretion. Because medicine cannot, and will never understand the mechanics behind sleep, what happens the mind, soul and spirit when you sleep...they will not ever crack this.

 

Here is something for you to look into. The Po roots the Hun in physicality, if that was not to happen, a person becomes delusional. As freeform mentioned, when a person takes psychedelics, the po is suppressed and the hun becomes a bit less restricted. When you go to sleep, then Hun also likes to travel...consider what happens during dreams and all the mixed and mashed up (apparently) delusional information you get....it is not coincidence that you are (or should be) seeing connections

 

So you might think you need this medication. That's fine, like I said.

 

The reality is though, people in your situation have been asked to settle for this medication,  and all the damage that comes with it because of a discipline which has falsely claimed an understanding of matters to which they really don't understand at all. And herein lies the problem...and this is what I am referencing. I have little issue with a persons choice. I have a big one with the "authority" influencing it

 

@Cleansox made a good point above about the unattendance of issues  that is equally problematic. However what we are seeing here is the presumption that these are a long term solution. But they really aren't. Yet to position them as such is what creates the myriad of problems...The further changes are time and dose dependant like I mentioned...The longer they are used, the worse it gets

 

There is a further good point about the availability of teachers, and the risks of attempting energetic practices as a means to correct them. It is possible to fix these things, but it requires a person who knows what they are doing...and they are few and far between. Not impossible by any stretch (despite the fact its painted in that way), just requires some searching.

[Chainikas]

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Why did you start taking them? 

I had nervous breakdown. There was outer and inner conditions that caused it. I felt unrest/quivering in mys stomach region.

Psychiatrist sent me psychiatric hospital.  There quivering disappeared after "default"  sedative drug they gave before sleep.

Next day doctor asked many questions about childhood, current conditions etc. And just said, that they starting "treatment" on me.

No explanation what diagnosis they are treating, nor what kind of drugs are they going to give. After couple days, they send me to psychologist for some tests, and result was "she found nothing bad".

These drugs had suppressing affect. All day my nervous system was fighting that suppressing, and i complained about that, to which doctor replied, that i am getting "childish" doses. Tried to hide some drugs instead taking them, but got noticed. That only resulted in pressure every time i was taking these "good helpful" drugs, "your blood circulation in brain is messed up, you need them", etc.

Only later i found out it was mix of anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, and some for side affects these may cause.

So why did i start, taking them? I was forced: no explanations, pressure and lies. I just didn't want this nervous breakdown reaper, but these drugs got me in condition far much worse and dangerous and painful.

[ralis]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

You can disagree with whatever you like, it does not make you correct.

 

Humans process sensation, perception and thought via the bridge of emotion. Would you like to talk about the ones who struggle with this, such as those with alexithymia and so forth?

 

The problem is that suffering is inherent to life, it permeates all aspects of it. That has nothing to do with religion, it is a byproduct of existence as an entity which has needs which must be met, and residence in an environment where the mind (via the sense faculties) is tricked into believing it needs things it does not, and corresponding neural networks are reshaped in the transformer accordingly....the further removed you become from the latter, the less complex it becomes.

 

Go ask a tribal person if they are worried about Instagram pictures, or what brand of sneakers they have. No, they wont be...but you will find they might have concerns such as food, shelter and safety (amongst other things)

 

The topic at hand has everything to do with psychedelics as an aid to cultivation which has everything to do with religion/spiritually. 

 

You have dissed researchers that advocate psilocybin, peyote, dmt, LSD, etc. when the topic is specific regarding the use of entheogens as a key that unlocks energetic gateways or other dimensions. NDE, out of the body experiences, dream travel are not some function of chemical emotional reactions, but the quest to experience beyond our minuscule existence. Some may be triggered by emotions, others by the intellect, and others by being with an enlightened teacher where just a glance is enough to awaken the vastness of timeless space that is a permanent change in one's life experience. Emotion is nothing more than a reaction to awakening and not primary in the least. 

 

Are you experienced in entheogens as cultivation gateways? If not then the experience that human existence is made of light frequencies alludes you. 

 

As a personal example there are many experiences that are profound and go beyond simple human emotion. 

 

When I was out in Las Vegas a few years ago, I bought an extract called OG Ghost Train Haze, 900 mg of THC with important terpenes that were left in the extract. To make a long story short I took far too much and the 8 hour experience was one of the crown chakra opening whereby I experienced the vast dimension of timeless space. Was it an emotional machine response? Hell no! It was beyond my minuscule existence as a human. Electro magnetic? Frequencies higher than? 

 

What about full blown non dual light as an experience? Physical transparency from very specific visual practices? Entheogens can assist in unlocking gateways. Even kundalini yoga has inherent risks. Life experience is a risk.

 

Stay on topic, please.

 

BTW, my experience with Peyote was all the way through that gateway, which left me with a deep understanding as to why American tribal cultures have utilized it for thousands of years.

Edited February 12, 2022 by ralis

[ralis]

In general science has far too long posited a materialist world view which has stifled certain aspects of the human experience.