Using psychedelics for cultivation or any other spiritual system.

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, ralis said:

 

The topic at hand has everything to do with psychedelics as an aid to cultivation which has everything to do with religion/spiritually. 

 

You have dissed researchers that advocate psilocybin, peyote, dmt, LSD, etc. when the topic is specific regarding the use of entheogens as a key that unlocks energetic gateways or other dimensions. NDE, out of the body experiences, dream travel are not some function of chemical emotional reactions, but the quest to experience beyond our minuscule existence. Some may be triggered by emotions, others by the intellect, and others by being with an enlightened teacher where just a glance is enough to awaken the vastness of timeless space that is a permanent change in one's life experience. Emotion is nothing more than a reaction to awakening and not primary in the least. 

 

Are you experienced in entheogens as cultivation gateways? If not then the experience that human existence is made of light frequencies alludes you. 

 

As a personal example there are many experiences that are profound and go beyond simple human emotion. 

 

When I was out in Las Vegas a few years ago, I bought an extract called OG Ghost Train Haze, 900 mg of THC with important terpenes that were left in the extract. To make a long story short I took far too much and the 8 hour experience was one of the crown chakra opening whereby I experienced the vast dimension of timeless space. Was it an emotional machine response? Hell no! It was beyond my minuscule existence as a human. Electro magnetic? Frequencies higher than? 

 

What about full blown non dual light as an experience? Physical transparency from very specific visual practices? Entheogens can assist in unlocking gateways. Even kundalini yoga has inherent risks. Life experience is a risk.

 

Stay on topic, please.

 

BTW, my experience with Peyote was all the way through that gateway, which left me with a deep understanding as to why American tribal cultures have utilized it for thousands of years.

 

The topic at hand has everything to do with psychedelics as an aid to cultivation which has everything to do with religion/spiritually. 

 

As freeform mentioned already, beyond a certain extent they are of little use to a cultivator. This has been echoed to me by several teachers as well. The exception is shamanic practices...and for the vast majority of people...dabbling in psychedelics has nothing to do with that. You've already been told you cannot access spirit with psychedelics, and the mechanics of the most popular one has been kindly laid out for you.

 

You might not want to believe this, but, unless you are a person of a high level of cultivation, or have a total fluke this is more or less what has happened. You're running into your own mind. Thats about the size of it

 

You have dissed called out researchers that advocate psilocybin, peyote, dmt, LSD, etc

 

And I will continue to do so.

 

I know exactly what their operation entails and their end goal. If you aren't privy to what happens in research and why, it might be better to leave this one alone. They have zero business advocating for the use of a substance under the guise of science when they have zero insight into matters pertaining to their mechanics. They have even less business aiding in the appropriation, commercialisation and exploitation of these substances. 

 

entheogens as a key that unlocks energetic gateways or other dimensions

 

For who? Shamans and people of high cultivation? Yes possibly...for regular folk...not really...just a conscious trip into the mind basically...nothing you cant do yourself fairly easily with the right method...Often one of the first barriers you meet, and a major distraction for folk who cling to the experience 

 

NDE, out of the body experiences, dream travel are not some function of chemical emotional reactions, but the quest to experience beyond our minuscule existence.

 

I find it strange that you, given all that was explained here (and elsewhere on the site) regards what a true OBE actually is, think that a substance could induce it. However, that might have slipped past you. In any case, you are highly unlikely to get it from a substance...the somewhat mirrored effect you see in DMT is similar to what happens when you die (it is not the same, there are some differences) but whats actually happening is as you move into the subconscious and unconscious layers of the mind things pour out as consciousness folds in upon itself.

 

It is still delusion and actually, this is what keeps people tethered to samsara and stuck on the cycle...they cannot get past their own minds or over the delusions they are immersed in and clinging to in the bardo.  The ones that are particularly strong dictate the next incarnation to a degree...move past this, and the transmigration process is altered somewhat.

 

Heres the problem with this...and one most people don't realise. Reaching into this state even, and not knowing how, why or what to do, can create problems at the time of actual death, and in the bardo. This is why you need a teacher, this is why you need people who understand it to a high level. Not some clown in a lab jacket pretending they understand these things

 

It also is not a true OBE

 

Are you experienced in entheogens as cultivation gateways?

 

I have no interest in it. I hate to be blunt, but I'm not interested in tricking myself into thinking I've had some grand mystical experience. No more than I am interested in labelling rising yang qi as kundalini, or seeing colours as my chakras opening.

 

Just like you cannot access the mechanics of alchemy without strong foundations, you cannot access shamanic ones either.

 

There are masters, students and dabblers

 

Masters know what is happening, students want to truly learn, and dabblers think they already know and make mental leaps about their experiences...guess which category 99% of people engaging in plants and substances fall into

 

Emotion is nothing more than a reaction

 

Well at least you are correct here...Emotion is a reaction, and in the realm of humans, it is a reaction to sensation, perception, thought....it is almost as if we react to our thoughts and experiences through emotion. I said that a few posts ago.

 

Guess it was worth repeating

 

I took far too much and the 8 hour experience was one of the crown chakra opening whereby I experienced the vast dimension of timeless space. Was it an emotional machine response? Hell no!

 

Sounds like an emotional response to me.

 

Moreover I'm pretty sure your crown chakra definitely did not open.

 

Though if it did, you better go and tell all the Daoist Masters and Yogi's in the mountains practicing for decades to achieve just that, that they need no longer struggle how they are, you have the THC concentrate that will solve all their problems 

 

Also, given the  myriad of siddhi associated with the chakras opening, I'm sure if that happened telling them all  (perhaps all at once) shouldn't be an issue, bilocation, and teleportation are simple to what is essentially a deity in the earthly realm 

 

If not then the experience that human existence is made of light frequencies alludes you. 

It doesn't.

 

I've had the  alchemical experience ,of entering into a certain state and expanding the bandwidth of the visual field to include things most people only read about...and I did it sober,  not under the influence of any substance. It wasn't fleeting either (It just arose)

 

I've had a bunch of other things too that have been mentioned throughout this thread, more esoteric things (which I'm not going to elaborate on here)...and I've done it with my conscious awareness completely intact, and checked it over with teachers and multiple initiates...so I can safely say there was nothing delusionary about it...and this was something I wanted to be sure of...because there's enough woo woo and nonsense surrounding these topics. Far too much.

 

Life experience is a risk.

 

Sure it is...but the issue at hand was actually one of understanding the inherent risk of substances. Given the discussion in this thread, the concerns raised by myself and others who cultivate and have a bit of insight into the mechanics...Its sadly appears lost on most people in the wake of mental experiences masquerading as spiritual ones

 

C'est la vie I guess...whatever floats peoples boats

Edited February 12, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Nungali]

On 12/02/2022 at 3:58 AM, Shadow_self said:

 

Yes Jungian ones too...Jung was quite confused about many things. Some things he got right...some things he did not. His understanding of alchemy is a good example. It is unfortunate in some senses...because he did have some worthwhile knowledge. The centres you speak of are the flip side of the same coin...They equally have no business administering these substances....and they are facilitated by this sudden "mainstream" interest. 

Like I said...if someone feels up to taking the risk of a trip...that is their business. I have no issue with it...It is the appropriation, exploitation, legislation and administration off the back of a false knowledge base and zero understanding of the mechanics that I have a problem with. 

 

 

Im sorry but you are incorrect. It isnt a hard science, nor a soft science. It is a hybrid attempt to bridge a gap between arts and the sciences, which it fails at. You cannot quantify the mind. A rudimentary understanding of the nature of the soul and spirit will facilitate ones understanding as to why this is the case. Funnily enough, these things are readily rejected by science...it isn't within their ability to ever understand these matters...Hence my point

 

Yes I do realise the inherent weaknesses in the method.. all of it. I spend a good portion of my time un-indoctrinating people who fall into the fallacy of believing in this is actually a sound knowledge base

 

As for a "plot". Well no...universities are not plotting with Pharma...

 

What is happening is a few people who have some sliver of decency left in their soul question the status quo. They do work and expose the current facade...so then the pharma companies tend to go elsewhere..the "next big thing"...and they line the pockets of researchers, put them in well paid positions as "advisors to give them the results they want...In return they get huge grants, fame and lots of personal wealth...and the companies... they have their "evidence base" which is basically a licence to operate in todays environment.

 

That is currently what is happening with the whole psychedelics interest. @freeformwords ring true...the vast majority of shamanic treatments don't involve psychedelics. No individual has any business laying claim to this stuff off the back of pretending they understand how it works, and basically building the bridge for big pharma to come in, appropriate this, regulate it and so forth

 

I've seen this film before, and I know how it ends...By the way of mass administration...they might help a few...they will harm a lot more...But then that's what science does right? Anyone thinking it "solves" problems really hasn't spent long enough at it to read between the lines.

 

 

I'll support that in ; my indigenous shamanic teacher never even bought up the subject of psychedelics  .... those guys  are half in the 'other world' anyway .

[Nungali]

On 12/02/2022 at 6:41 AM, helpfuldemon said:

Psychedelics remove ego barriers and tear down conditioning.  It isn't wisdom, but it is a way to see beyond what you believe.

 

The first time I smoked pot I laughed for three hours.  The last time I smoked it I writhed on the floor begging for it to end for the same amount of time.

 

I hope the first paragraph is not based on personal experience !

 

Man, if mere pot did that to you ... dont go near psychedelics !  You are in no condition whatsoever  ...... with those 'wires' torturing in your head and the other stuff you claim to experience .... to go near them .

[Lairg]

It seems that psychedelics can rip apart various veils in the standard human.   This can be good or bad depending on how spiritually mature is the human and whether the veil can be repaired.

 

The usual process is that the veils get eroded by the gradual increase in vibration/quality of life experience.  Sometimes another entity can intervene to remove a veil.

 

Thus a carefully managed psychedelic experience can be valuable.   Ignorant experiences may be like Russian roulette 

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Thanks for speaking up, @helpfuldemon.  To me, your perspective is the most important and relevant to this particular tributary of the thread.

 

It depends on the medication of course .... in some cases PLEASE keep taking it , in others ; chuck it .

 

I'll put my experience here  to clarify things . yes I have 'seen' many of the things Shadow self talked about ; the suicides, the self harm, etc etc . But also I worked in a public hospital for years (not as a professional ) which included the psyche ward  and before that worked a youth 'drop in' centre where many times  people with 'mental problems' or having a bad drug experience would turn up .

 

One experience stood out ;

 

Young woman turns up late at night , I am sitting at the desk and she  "  I want to kill myself . "     She sounded light and half joking  ... ho-hum, we get a few of these a week .  Me ;  " Knives are in the draw in the kitchen ."   - that stopped here .

 

" Oh ! I never got that answer before !   Just as well you knew I was joking because  ..... look ." and shows me her writs, which are a mass of scars  .... and not going across the wrists either , some the other way .   This looks serious .

 

Anyway , lovely girl it turns out . Had problems since  adolescence ( surprise surprise ! ), 'treatment' and a regime of psyche drugs for years that really messed her up .   It all started when she drifted out of her body one night and could look down in the room and see it . It scared her so she told her parents . Then it kept happening , she did a  few trips around the house , then she started to feel like she was 'slipping out' while awake and walking around kept telling her parents so it was off to the psychiatrist .    My  work partner  gave me a curious look  and  asked her '  Have you ever heard of astral projection ?'  She was totally ignorant on  such matters .

 

She was given a couple of books to read , came back a week later beaming  " I dont I was ever crazy after all ! "   Every so often she would come and talk to us about issues . Eventually he was off meds. She even admitted herself ; "I have a LOT more work to do getting rid of this stuff out my system - the drugs AND the stuff they said and put into my head . "

 

In other times she would have been considered  a Priestess and her advice sought .  In other times again, she might have burnt as a witch .

 

-   Poor old humanity 

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Suffering is inherent to samsara and part of the human condition...

 

You'll find that when you're willing to go with it...Life becomes much easier. No matter how bad it is, someone has it worse...so either be sad about how bad it is, or be grateful it isn't as bad as the other person.It is really a matter of perspective...and in fact a lot of " mental illness" from the depressive and anxiety categories do indeed have these matters at their very core...amongst other things.

 

Meanwhile, the psychiatric community have convinced the general public that depression is "a chemical imbalance". 

 

What do you think it is ?

 

I just wrote a bit about this recently  .

 

I have said this a few times ; I live in an area which I and others think (and people from elsewhere - the media, etc )  has a LOT going for it ; healthy, pristine, services , beach forest rivers , activities ... 'everything', let the local pharmacy has one of the highest rate per population of distribution of anti-depressants .

 

I am the opposite .  So this stimulated me to investigative the phenomena of modern high rate depression.

 

Also, as an anthropologist,  I study the subject in relation to  displaced indigenous , where it is a HUGE problem and sometimes gets to an extent that is frightening .  I also encountered bad levels of it in my work in refugee relocation .

 

The progression , in cultures in crisis, concerning the individual ; they go through certain preliminary states - moving towards the crisis level

+ Substance abuse   ( note  abuse , not use , many cultures used drugs to their advantages ) .

+ Self harm   abuse    ( ie, not as scarification , initiation  practice or 'mourning'  - I have seen some horrible self inflicted 'mourning  wounds ) .

+ Terminal self harm   ( can include cutting off parts of the body and face ; nose ears, etc .  manually ripping off the testicles  - this indicates an unconscious urge to only destroy the self but the whole genetic lineage of the tribe ).

+ Suicide and death of the individual and eventually the culture .

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Chainikas said:

I had nervous breakdown. There was outer and inner conditions that caused it. I felt unrest/quivering in mys stomach region.

Psychiatrist sent me psychiatric hospital.  There quivering disappeared after "default"  sedative drug they gave before sleep.

Next day doctor asked many questions about childhood, current conditions etc. And just said, that they starting "treatment" on me.

No explanation what diagnosis they are treating, nor what kind of drugs are they going to give. After couple days, they send me to psychologist for some tests, and result was "she found nothing bad".

These drugs had suppressing affect. All day my nervous system was fighting that suppressing, and i complained about that, to which doctor replied, that i am getting "childish" doses. Tried to hide some drugs instead taking them, but got noticed. That only resulted in pressure every time i was taking these "good helpful" drugs, "your blood circulation in brain is messed up, you need them", etc.

Only later i found out it was mix of anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, and some for side affects these may cause.

So why did i start, taking them? I was forced: no explanations, pressure and lies. I just didn't want this nervous breakdown reaper, but these drugs got me in condition far much worse and dangerous and painful.

 

 

All from 'unrest in your stomach '  !  ? ? ?

 

[Shadow_self]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

What do you think it is ?

 

I just wrote a bit about this recently  .

 

I have said this a few times ; I live in an area which I and others think (and people from elsewhere - the media, etc )  has a LOT going for it ; healthy, pristine, services , beach forest rivers , activities ... 'everything', let the local pharmacy has one of the highest rate per population of distribution of anti-depressants .

 

I am the opposite .  So this stimulated me to investigative the phenomena of modern high rate depression.

 

Also, as an anthropologist,  I study the subject in relation to  displaced indigenous , where it is a HUGE problem and sometimes gets to an extent that is frightening .  I also encountered bad levels of it in my work in refugee relocation .

 

The progression , in cultures in crisis, concerning the individual ; they go through certain preliminary states - moving towards the crisis level

+ Substance abuse   ( note  abuse , not use , many cultures used drugs to their advantages ) .

+ Self harm   abuse    ( ie, not as scarification , initiation  practice or 'mourning'  - I have seen some horrible self inflicted 'mourning  wounds ) .

+ Terminal self harm   ( can include cutting off parts of the body and face ; nose ears, etc .  manually ripping off the testicles  - this indicates an unconscious urge to only destroy the self but the whole genetic lineage of the tribe ).

+ Suicide and death of the individual and eventually the culture .

 

 

 

 

Oh what do I think it is...Now thats a question.

 

I dont think it is any one thing really, and because of that I do believe an individual approach to treatment is required here. I dont think it is rooted in biology however...not at all...the whole antidepressant fiasco is fine evidence of that.

 

Here's a very sobering take down of a widely cited meta analysis

 

https://openexcellence.org/antidepressants-work-major-depression-not-fast/

 

It is much more "energetic" and mental from my experience of it.

 

So I think that triggers can happen at any level, but what sustains it (which is the problem with depression isn't it) happens energetically and mentally and so, should be treated as such. 

 

My experience of people having lasting improvements have come from changes as a result of things like Acupuncture and TCM ,mental training, breathing exercises, talking therapies, time in nature, new hobbies and a very good one...is a person across from them teaching them how to think critically and assess a situation correctly...the predisposition to classify everything as negative is quite strong...sometimes people simply don't know how to think another way....and taking them through the practice of doing so and giving the proper skills seems to really help

 

Removing antidepressants,, benzo's and antipsychotics which are given to people as easy as candy is given to a child also helps immensely. Though the withdrawal, or purging can be tough on them 

[Cleansox]

@Chainikas So, if I had a point, that would be that you started on meds because you had symptoms severe enough to be referred to a psychiatrists and if I understood right, not as an outpatient?

 

So, even if I am sorry for your experience, and for the fact that psychiatric care still tend to bulldoze patients, there is a possibility that the symtoms/problems that you still are suffering from is related as much to the reason you contacted the health care system in the first place, as much as the negative impact of the treatment. 

 

For a healing, it is important to see this, so you can focus on the root cause and direct your efforts on that. 

[Cleansox]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

It all started when she drifted out of her body one night and could look down in the room and see it . It scared her so she told her parents . Then it kept happening , she did a  few trips around the house , then she started to feel like she was 'slipping out' while awake and walking around kept telling her parents so it was off to the psychiatrist .    My  work partner  gave me a curious look  and  asked her '  Have you ever heard of astral projection ?'  She was totally ignorant on  such matters .

 

I spend a serious amount of time teaching patients about their experiences, tracing them back from the abnormal and uncontrollable to where they are functional. Often, that removes the fear and stigma of it, and enables the patient to actually work through it.

Working through doesn't always mean talking about old situations, more commonly, we train the mind (or the brain, whatever floats your boat) to handle and process painful stimuli, so that the person have a reasonable chance of handling normal life. 

[Chainikas]

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

All from 'unrest in your stomach '  !  ? ? ?

 

Well, it was nervous breakdown. I felt pulsating in stomach region, it felt very draining, tiresome, also because of that i couldn't focus, calm down or rest. But it was clearly nervous system issue, cause after taking sedative it all disappeared.

In such state I dramatized things. So I told psychiatrist, i felt like loosing energy in my stomach. Very bad idea.

Also, in hospital early in the morning i would do some exercises, because after taking these suppressing drugs, i couldn't do much only fight suppression inside. And during visitation the doctor would see me tired (a bit from exercises but mostly from suppression effect) and "u seem sad, without mood, i think we need increase medication". I would argue, i don't need more, but count of pills was increasing anyway. This place was full of madness, and I'm not talking about patients there.

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Chainikas said:

Well, it was nervous breakdown. I felt pulsating in stomach region, it felt very draining, tiresome, also because of that i couldn't focus, calm down or rest. But it was clearly nervous system issue, cause after taking sedative it all disappeared.

In such state I dramatized things. So I told psychiatrist, i felt like loosing energy in my stomach. Very bad idea.

 

Yes , If you need to say something like that , or get it treated  go to  Traditional Chinese doctor .

 

 

13 hours ago, Chainikas said:

 

 

Also, in hospital early in the morning i would do some exercises, because after taking these suppressing drugs, i couldn't do much only fight suppression inside. And during visitation the doctor would see me tired (a bit from exercises but mostly from suppression effect) and "u seem sad, without mood, i think we need increase medication". I would argue, i don't need more, but count of pills was increasing anyway. This place was full of madness, and I'm not talking about patients there.

 

Tired and without mood  indicates you need MORE drugs  ..... my GOD ! 

 

Sound like one of those   'add two spaces guys   '   ? 

 

Spoiler

A good one  -   psychotherapist .

 

A bad one  ( add two spaces )  -  psycho the rapist . 

 

 - some think thats an exaggeration .... some that have never had their mind  invaded , twisted and damaged by being force fed psych drugs .

 

 

I hope you are feeling a LOT better now .

 

[mrpasserby]

On 2/4/2022 at 6:09 AM, Salvijus said:

What is your opinion about using psychedelics to progress on the path? Are there any dangers to it? On which conditions and to what extent are they useful in your opinion?

 

Would like to expand my understanding on this subject. Would appreaciate some insights into it if somebody has any. 

IMO: Almost anyway that a practitioner can get a taste of the ethereal realm is a good way to start.IMO: The danger is if a person is unable to separate a hallucination from a *actual ethereal encounter, and or if a person has just one actual ethereal encounter of any kind and makes it into a personal religion, or writes a book on it.

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by mrpasserby
controversial subject

[Bindi]

On 12/2/2022 at 8:10 AM, Shadow_self said:

 

Suffering is inherent to samsara and part of the human condition...

 

You'll find that when you're willing to go with it...Life becomes much easier. No matter how bad it is, someone has it worse...so either be sad about how bad it is, or be grateful it isn't as bad as the other person.It is really a matter of perspective...and in fact a lot of " mental illness" from the depressive and anxiety categories do indeed have these matters at their very core...amongst other things.

 

Meanwhile, the psychiatric community have convinced the general public that depression is "a chemical imbalance". 

There’s suffering inherent to samsara, and depending on your path, especially if it’s an alchemical one, it’s likely there will also be anxiety - 

 

Quote

 

 

Zhang Sheung Yao Shen Fang Zhong Ji

Longevity must be treated carefully, for within the chamber is anxiety

(Yellow Court External Illumination Scripture)

 

 

Not being averse to suffering or anxiety is a fundamental requirement IMO.

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, mrpasserby said:

Almost anyway that a practitioner can get a taste of the ethereal realm is a good way to start.

 

I wonder if some usages damage the etheric and astral bodies.  

 

It seems that such damage can be carried over into the next incarnation

[freeform]

10 hours ago, Lairg said:

I wonder if some usages damage the etheric and astral bodies.

yup.

 

10 hours ago, Lairg said:

It seems that such damage can be carried over into the next incarnation

Nope.

 

At least that’s not the direct causation. The way it can impact your next life is by your strongly attaching or feeling unacceptable aversion to some aspect of the resulting experience.

 

——

 

I think in general, assuming good set and setting (where you are and who you are), hallucinogenic drugs will not cause serious damage as long one is minimal with its use.

 

But equally it is not a panacea.
 

There’s a real danger if one sees the hallucinogenic experience as ‘the answer’ to some inner emptiness or the like. 
 

Even with shamanism - all that you have access to is the lower realms and the minor spirit realms. Over-reliance on these substances will tie you to these realms and make touching the divine impossible. Just as over-obsession with physicality (material goods, pleasant feelings, positive stimulation of the senses) will limit you in this way too.

 

All that hallucinogens provide is a temporary break from the structure your mind has created to apprehend ‘reality’. This break can be positive - particularly if this structure is super limiting… or if you’ve over-identified with this structure and assumed that your subjective experience apprehends the totality of reality. It’s like you’ve been staring at an image of yourself for years - then someone throws a stone and you see ripples in the image and realise you’ve just been looking at your reflection in the water all this time. For some people this is very helpful. For others it can be a catalyst for serious mental disturbance.

 

The various beings, messages, presences one experiences are not divine or even particularly useful… usually they’re just aspects of mind that take on a representative identity… sometimes they’re representations of beings from the lower realms… or the minor spirit realms. All the elves, insect-like beings, snake like beings, plant spirits etc - that’s what these are. Whilst it may be eye-opening to experience the reality of this - they generally confer no benefit for your evolution or your growth… sometimes there’s a benefit, but there’s always a trade - and you may not realise what you’re giving away as part of the bargain. This is the area for shamans to traverse. 

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

yup.

 

Nope.

 

At least that’s not the direct causation. The way it can impact your next life is by your strongly attaching or feeling unacceptable aversion to some aspect of the resulting experience.

 

——

 

I think in general, assuming good set and setting (where you are and who you are), hallucinogenic drugs will not cause serious damage as long one is minimal with its use.

 

But equally it is not a panacea.
 

There’s a real danger if one sees the hallucinogenic experience as ‘the answer’ to some inner emptiness or the like. 
 

Even with shamanism - all that you have access to is the lower realms and the minor spirit realms. Over-reliance on these substances will tie you to these realms and make touching the divine impossible. Just as over-obsession with physicality (material goods, pleasant feelings, positive stimulation of the senses) will limit you in this way too.

 

All that hallucinogens provide is a temporary break from the structure your mind has created to apprehend ‘reality’. This break can be positive - particularly if this structure is super limiting… or if you’ve over-identified with this structure and assumed that your subjective experience apprehends the totality of reality. It’s like you’ve been staring at an image of yourself for years - then someone throws a stone and you see ripples in the image and realise you’ve just been looking at your reflection in the water all this time. For some people this is very helpful. For others it can be a catalyst for serious mental disturbance.

 

The various beings, messages, presences one experiences are not divine or even particularly useful… usually they’re just aspects of mind that take on a representative identity… sometimes they’re representations of beings from the lower realms… or the minor spirit realms. All the elves, insect-like beings, snake like beings, plant spirits etc - that’s what these are. Whilst it may be eye-opening to experience the reality of this - they generally confer no benefit for your evolution or your growth… sometimes there’s a benefit, but there’s always a trade - and you may not realise what you’re giving away as part of the bargain. This is the area for shamans to traverse. 

 

The way it can impact your next life is by your strongly attaching or feeling unacceptable aversion to some aspect of the resulting experience.

 

Problem is, a very large proportion of people become extremely attached to the experience. It is very hard to move past attachment and delusion when you're inadvertently creating more of it

 

There’s a real danger if one sees the hallucinogenic experience as ‘the answer’ to some inner emptiness or the like. 
There are people I know right now addicted to "Mother ayahuasca "...One such person I know used it as her life didn't turn out how she wanted at all...She's heavy on it now and shows no sign of weaning

 

For some people this is very helpful. For others it can be a catalyst for serious mental disturbance.

I guess the crux of the discussion is, why should any doctor or scientist (who know essentially nothing about the mind) have the right to dictate who gets this. Do they have the insight to know who will fall into these categories? Indeed not...and when you start giving these substances to already disturbed folk without knowing what you are doing....there's a fine line being threaded there

 

The various beings, messages, presences one experiences are not divine or even particularly useful… usually they’re just aspects of mind that take on a representative identity… sometimes they’re representations of beings from the lower realms… or the minor spirit realms.

 

Agree with this. This is how it was explained to me also. Moreover...anything "divine" in nature supposedly comes through in a very different way

[S:C]

 

 

8 hours ago, freeform said:

damage the etheric and astral bodies.

 

 

and I wondered back then, when the person, who had those longtime adverse drug effects (which some of you would call a 'shen disturbance' or more) - I was talking about before - was having a lucid moment or if it was just another deviation of the consensual reality claimed, 'energetic' molestation is happening. I had put that in the category of 'weird talk' even though it seemed like a moment of honest experience sharing.

 

 

edit:

another option to look at this

 

On 9.9.2018 at 7:50 PM, Integrated said:

hortcut via drugs probably work, but you are forever dependent on them to get back there.

 

Also as Jung pointed out, what do you do with it when you come back?

His message was simply, "Beware of wisdom that is not earned!"

 

This is expanded upon in this video:

 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by questionmark
adding another perspective

[Cleansox]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Even with shamanism - all that you have access to is the lower realms and the minor spirit realms. 

/... ... /

 

The various beings, messages, presences one experiences are not divine or even particularly useful… usually they’re just aspects of mind that take on a representative identity… sometimes they’re representations of beings from the lower realms… or the minor spirit realms. All the elves, insect-like beings, snake like beings, plant spirits etc - that’s what these are. 

There are other ways than drugs to experience these realms. 

A proper position and a proper beat will get you there, with more control of the experience. 

[Chainikas]

20 hours ago, Nungali said:

I hope you are feeling a LOT better now .

Thank you, I'm better and slowly healing.

 

20 hours ago, Nungali said:

- some think thats an exaggeration .... some that have never had their mind  invaded , twisted and damaged by being force fed psych drugs .

Yes, that's right. And you need act and speak carefully in such hospitals, cause sometimes doctors easily increase doses or put on strong drugs for minor reasons.

 

Sorry for off-topic, you discuss here psychedelics and its effect on spiritual progress and next life. I'm curious about psychiatric drug effects on these topics. 

[freeform]

3 hours ago, questionmark said:

I wonder if the same goes for so called 'energetic sex'?

No. With the same caveat - that becoming attached or averse to the experience can cause issues. 
 

The linking of energetic bodies also can pass a lot of energetic/karmic influences back and forth.

 

3 hours ago, questionmark said:

energetic' molestation is happening.

It’s hard to say.

 

When the mind is on fire, there are several common delusions that take hold.
 

One is about being persecuted. Whether by entities, or voices, or friends, or people on tv… or clouds, 5G, microwaves, chips inserted into you, aliens etc etc.

 

The theme always places you at the centre of everything. The random things you witness take on a new meaning that relates to you directly. You see a helicopter and it becomes obvious that the helicopter is following you. Someone speaks on the radio and it becomes clear that they are speaking to you. Etc etc 

Other times when some unfathomable internal process is taking place, our mind will create a sort of narrative to explain what’s happening.

 

Say you have a buried memory of someone looking at you in a lusty way when you’re a child. That experience registers internally, and may come out as a feeling of being ‘energetically molested’ many years later when that stored feeling is touched on.

 

Sometimes the person has these sort of impulses themselves, and this is so troubling that they cloak this aspect away from their inner eye… then years later might feel this ‘energetic molestation’ as something coming from the outside.

 

There are many possibilities.

[freeform]

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

There are people I know right now addicted to "Mother ayahuasca "...One such person I know used it as her life didn't turn out how she wanted at all...She's heavy on it now and shows no sign of weaning

Yeah. People tend to equate plant spirits with some divine beings. Though that’s not really the case - they’re no more divine than humans - and in many ways much more limited.

 

I’ve seen how people consider those that have undertaken many ayahuasca ceremonies to somehow be more evolved, centred, spiritual. Yet I’ve met a ‘shaman’ from Peru - has had hundreds of trips over many years - spoke very eloquently about the divinity of the various plant teachers and how they’ve helped him achieve deep spiritual realisations… but I heard that a couple of years ago he went to prison for raping dozens of tourists. 

 

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

the crux of the discussion is, why should any doctor or scientist (who know essentially nothing about the mind) have the right to dictate who gets this. Do they have the insight to know who will fall into these categories? Indeed not...and when you start giving these substances to already disturbed folk without knowing what you are doing....there's a fine line being threaded there

indeed.

[mrpasserby]

19 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

I wonder if some usages damage the etheric and astral bodies.  

 

It seems that such damage can be carried over into the next incarnation

That is a good question that I don't know the answer to.

 

[Lairg]

Just as refinement of physical, etheric, emotional and mental bodies is carried over into the next incarnation, so is damage.

 

I recall long ago when I commuted by train, I used another train line for some reason.   I was shocked at how unrefined were the physical bodies of the passengers.

 

In the Theosophical writings there are Seed Atoms - by which the quality of the abandoned bodies is carried over into the next incarnation.  

 

There are data of alleged past lives that show physical injuries of that time appearing now as "birth marks"

[ralis]

On 2/12/2022 at 11:50 AM, Shadow_self said:

 

The topic at hand has everything to do with psychedelics as an aid to cultivation which has everything to do with religion/spiritually. 

 

As freeform mentioned already, beyond a certain extent they are of little use to a cultivator. This has been echoed to me by several teachers as well. The exception is shamanic practices...and for the vast majority of people...dabbling in psychedelics has nothing to do with that. You've already been told you cannot access spirit with psychedelics, and the mechanics of the most popular one has been kindly laid out for you.

 

You might not want to believe this, but, unless you are a person of a high level of cultivation, or have a total fluke this is more or less what has happened. You're running into your own mind. Thats about the size of it

 

You have dissed called out researchers that advocate psilocybin, peyote, dmt, LSD, etc

 

And I will continue to do so.

 

I know exactly what their operation entails and their end goal. If you aren't privy to what happens in research and why, it might be better to leave this one alone. They have zero business advocating for the use of a substance under the guise of science when they have zero insight into matters pertaining to their mechanics. They have even less business aiding in the appropriation, commercialisation and exploitation of these substances. 

 

entheogens as a key that unlocks energetic gateways or other dimensions

 

For who? Shamans and people of high cultivation? Yes possibly...for regular folk...not really...just a conscious trip into the mind basically...nothing you cant do yourself fairly easily with the right method...Often one of the first barriers you meet, and a major distraction for folk who cling to the experience 

 

NDE, out of the body experiences, dream travel are not some function of chemical emotional reactions, but the quest to experience beyond our minuscule existence.

 

I find it strange that you, given all that was explained here (and elsewhere on the site) regards what a true OBE actually is, think that a substance could induce it. However, that might have slipped past you. In any case, you are highly unlikely to get it from a substance...the somewhat mirrored effect you see in DMT is similar to what happens when you die (it is not the same, there are some differences) but whats actually happening is as you move into the subconscious and unconscious layers of the mind things pour out as consciousness folds in upon itself.

 

It is still delusion and actually, this is what keeps people tethered to samsara and stuck on the cycle...they cannot get past their own minds or over the delusions they are immersed in and clinging to in the bardo.  The ones that are particularly strong dictate the next incarnation to a degree...move past this, and the transmigration process is altered somewhat.

 

Heres the problem with this...and one most people don't realise. Reaching into this state even, and not knowing how, why or what to do, can create problems at the time of actual death, and in the bardo. This is why you need a teacher, this is why you need people who understand it to a high level. Not some clown in a lab jacket pretending they understand these things

 

It also is not a true OBE

 

Are you experienced in entheogens as cultivation gateways?

 

I have no interest in it. I hate to be blunt, but I'm not interested in tricking myself into thinking I've had some grand mystical experience. No more than I am interested in labelling rising yang qi as kundalini, or seeing colours as my chakras opening.

 

Just like you cannot access the mechanics of alchemy without strong foundations, you cannot access shamanic ones either.

 

There are masters, students and dabblers

 

Masters know what is happening, students want to truly learn, and dabblers think they already know and make mental leaps about their experiences...guess which category 99% of people engaging in plants and substances fall into

 

Emotion is nothing more than a reaction

 

Well at least you are correct here...Emotion is a reaction, and in the realm of humans, it is a reaction to sensation, perception, thought....it is almost as if we react to our thoughts and experiences through emotion. I said that a few posts ago.

 

Guess it was worth repeating

 

I took far too much and the 8 hour experience was one of the crown chakra opening whereby I experienced the vast dimension of timeless space. Was it an emotional machine response? Hell no!

 

Sounds like an emotional response to me.

 

Moreover I'm pretty sure your crown chakra definitely did not open.

 

Though if it did, you better go and tell all the Daoist Masters and Yogi's in the mountains practicing for decades to achieve just that, that they need no longer struggle how they are, you have the THC concentrate that will solve all their problems 

 

Also, given the  myriad of siddhi associated with the chakras opening, I'm sure if that happened telling them all  (perhaps all at once) shouldn't be an issue, bilocation, and teleportation are simple to what is essentially a deity in the earthly realm 

 

If not then the experience that human existence is made of light frequencies alludes you. 

It doesn't.

 

I've had the  alchemical experience ,of entering into a certain state and expanding the bandwidth of the visual field to include things most people only read about...and I did it sober,  not under the influence of any substance. It wasn't fleeting either (It just arose)

 

I've had a bunch of other things too that have been mentioned throughout this thread, more esoteric things (which I'm not going to elaborate on here)...and I've done it with my conscious awareness completely intact, and checked it over with teachers and multiple initiates...so I can safely say there was nothing delusionary about it...and this was something I wanted to be sure of...because there's enough woo woo and nonsense surrounding these topics. Far too much.

 

Life experience is a risk.

 

Sure it is...but the issue at hand was actually one of understanding the inherent risk of substances. Given the discussion in this thread, the concerns raised by myself and others who cultivate and have a bit of insight into the mechanics...Its sadly appears lost on most people in the wake of mental experiences masquerading as spiritual ones

 

C'est la vie I guess...whatever floats peoples boats

 

When I stated regarding light I refer to Keith Dowman's book as well as Albert Einstein and Dr. David Bohm, among others.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09RW88D51/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i1