Using psychedelics for cultivation or any other spiritual system.

[Salvijus]

What is your opinion about using psychedelics to progress on the path? Are there any dangers to it? On which conditions and to what extent are they useful in your opinion?

 

Would like to expand my understanding on this subject. Would appreaciate some insights into it if somebody has any. 

[silent thunder]

Entheogens have aided/challenged and rewarded me very potently.  Most notably psilocybin mushrooms.  My experiences have been beneficial.  Have no idea how they would react to anyone else.

 

And I wouldn't know how to begin offering any sort of advice to any other as to how, when, or if they should engage with these energies. 

 

But it was undeniable for me.  It was a clear simple call.   A piercing thought.  And one from within... that I trusted inherently.  It felt absolutely simple, small yet penetratingly unshakable.  I knew I'd find myself with the opportunity and when I did, I inherently knew to go with it.  It felt in my case, not just right but necessary.

 

Of my various travels in those ways... two of them were clearly driven by approaching insights that as I see it now, were the driving force behind that call.  Something in the unconscious was preparing my flashlight awareness for the wave that had already started cascading long before and that these entheogens were catalysts in that process.

 

Both of these experiences were realizations of life shifting insight; realizations about deep aspects of my behaviorial self and they revealed patterns through which I had been interpreting the world that once seen, altered my experience of awareness from then on. 

 

assumptions of the nature of reality revealed as mist... and release so simply... notions of self that previously lay beyond my awareness unfolded in such potent simplicity they resonate still. 

 

Both of these experiences were bolts of vajra.  Blinding flashes of insight so simple can calmly, utterly true, they were unignorable.  Undeniable.  A sudden awareness of my nature and of an aspect that had been with me always, yet never before noticed/acknowledged.  And once seen... accepted, released, healed, dissolved, everpresent.

 

The result was permanent shift in both cases... immense potency, resilience of essential true nature.  but utterly calm, simple unassuming small and unobtrusive.  Like a tiny quiet almost invisible bird that is inside so expansive, it houses all the winds of the world within it in a calm ruffle of feathers.

 

Deep acceptance acknowledgement shifted and energies released, radical release on both occasions resulted in shifts of awareness that impact me to this day, are central to who i know I am.

 

They arrived with such penetrating simplicity and potency.  It's paradoxical.  They were so simple, that they utterly shook my previous worldview.  Like a fish becoming aware of water when before there was no concept.

 

Insight like a Flash of Lightning, so True, its Undeniability is as Hard as Diamond.  Vajra.

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by silent thunder
clarified some wording

[stirling]

Psychedelics are for teaching, and if they are treated that way can be rewarding. They temporarily open doors, but the glimpse they give you is confused and unclear, lacking concrete insight. I found that the most rewarding experiences you have with them are the early ones, and regular repeated journeys tend to offer diminishing returns. Think of them as a sacrament, and their journey as a finite part of your intention to understand. 

 

Ingesting them can lead to experiences that cause you to question and doubt the nature of reality as you accept it on a daily basis, and doing so can be very valuable, but in order to really get the best from any psychedelic experience you need to have a clean, clear intention about what you are trying to learn. My suggestion is to author an intention like, "I want to understand the nature of reality". Be sure of what it is what you want. Create a conducive safe, loving setting, and have someone who can help and has experience with the substances available nearby. 

 

My experience is that it made it plain that things are not as I thought they were, specifically that time, space, and self were probably conceptual in a way I couldn't quite understand. Psychedelics revealed the flaws, but in no way unveiled the true nature of things, that takes resting in empty, spacious, awareness (which is what enlightenment IS)  through meditation ,and years of working to let go of craving and aversion. Still, understanding the absolute isn't anything to do with an "I", or a "me", or any action you think "you" are in charge of.

 

Ultimately:

 

Quote

“Gaining enlightenment is an accident. Spiritual practice simply makes us accident-prone.” – Suzuki Roshi

 

My opinion.

[silent thunder]

 

25 minutes ago, stirling said:

Ultimately:

 

Quote

“Gaining enlightenment is an accident. Spiritual practice simply makes us accident-prone.” – Suzuki Roshi

 

My opinion.

Wow.  That quote is piercing.  Thanks for sharing.

[stirling]

9 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

 

Wow.  That quote is piercing.  Thanks for sharing.

 

Agreed! I collect zingers like that them when I see them. They tend to agitate clinging, which I think is a good thing.

[blue eyed snake]

4 hours ago, Salvijus said:

What is your opinion about using psychedelics to progress on the path? Are there any dangers to it?

 

I did use psychedelics in my younger years, for a time, then I stopped.

Acid and psilocybine. Much preferred the mushrooms above the chemical stuff.

I do remember some interesting visions but now I think whatever happens to you in such a trip was there all along, never felt the urge to retry again.

As to dangers, in my opinion they mostly reside in yourself. When there's ugly stuff hiding in you it can very well come out.

Ugly surroundings can get into you when it gets overwhelming.

 

I do not advise to try or not to try but when you do take care. Be careful with dose, safe place, preferable nature, healthy food, have fruits nearby for when you want them, stay well hydrated, safe person to take care of you should you need it. Someone who knows you well, feels safe for you and is experienced with the stuff you're taking.

[stirling]

22 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

As to dangers, in my opinion they mostly reside in yourself. When there's ugly stuff hiding in you it can very well come out.

Ugly surroundings can get into you when it gets overwhelming.

 

Just to add: The ugly stuff isn't a problem - it is actually what we need to let go of before we really make progress. It is the "grist for the mill" of the spiritual path. Still, the environment of a psychedelic experience is not really the right place to deal with it.

 

If you are aware that you have deep, painful material that you have not worked with or processed, be sure to spend some time on softening that with counseling, etc. before you jump into psychedelics.

[blue eyed snake]

2 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Just to add: The ugly stuff isn't a problem - it is actually what we need to let go of before we really make progress. It is the "grist for the mill" of the spiritual path. Still, the environment of a psychedelic experience is not really the right place to deal with it.

 

If you are aware that you have deep, painful material that you have not worked with or processed, be sure to spend some time on softening that with counseling, etc. before you jump into psychedelics.

 

yes, thanks for clarifying that part

[silent thunder]

Agree wholly with Stirling's advice.

 

Also this came to mind early in my explorations.  Take pains with the environment you will travel in.

 

I preferred nature settings, but that's not always helpful. 

 

Safe, settled and secure place to explore from, is the name of the game.

 

And if you plan on traveling that way in a day, pay close attention to any triggers that may happened in the hours leading up to the trip.  I've noticed that if anything had occured recently and been brought to mind shortly before dosing, they were highly likely to figure keenly in the subsequent experience.  Once some doors are opened, they remain open for some time.

 

There were a few times I decided to forgoe a travel until some triggers has resettled, if they were too intense. 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

Once some doors are opened, they remain open for some time.

 

This statement is bigger than it appears in your rear view mirror. 

[silent thunder]

8 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

I did use psychedelics in my younger years, for a time, then I stopped.

Acid and psilocybine. Much preferred the mushrooms above the chemical stuff.

I do remember some interesting visions but now I think whatever happens to you in such a trip was there all along, never felt the urge to retry again.

As to dangers, in my opinion they mostly reside in yourself. When there's ugly stuff hiding in you it can very well come out.

Ugly surroundings can get into you when it gets overwhelming.

 

I do not advise to try or not to try but when you do take care. Be careful with dose, safe place, preferable nature, healthy food, have fruits nearby for when you want them, stay well hydrated, safe person to take care of you should you need it. Someone who knows you well, feels safe for you and is experienced with the stuff you're taking.

hearty +1 from me.  well said.

[ralis]

The Wim Hof method will release DMT into the receptors in the nervous system without the risk of flipping out on a bad trip. Certain types of meditation can even be more interesting than taking entheogens.

 

There is a little known fact that Buddhist Temple monks used what is referred to as temple balls. Hash for certain and possibly opium, but not certain about opium.

 

Starting at 1:53 are several Afghans smoking hash. These guys would smoke most under the table. 

 

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1026737454365803

 

https://www.edrosenthal.com/the-guru-of-ganja-blog/2018/7/12/the-lost-art-of-temple-balls-a-hashish-master-and-his-student-explore-the-preservation-of-resin

 

From what I understand regarding the chemistry of THC and associated terpenes, once ingested, the liver converts cannabinoids to psilocybin compounds. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by ralis

[Gerard]

You gain no wisdom and in the meantime become addicted to them.

 

Stay away and nothing replaces hard work! There is no substitute to this. 

[blue eyed snake]

9 hours ago, ralis said:

The Wim Hof method will release DMT into the receptors in the nervous system without the risk of flipping out on a bad trip. Certain types of meditation can even be more interesting than taking entheogens.

 

There is a little known fact that Buddhist Temple monks used what is referred to as temple balls. Hash for certain and possibly opium, but not certain about opium.

 

Starting at 1:53 are several Afghans smoking hash. These guys would smoke most under the table. 

 

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1026737454365803

 

https://www.edrosenthal.com/the-guru-of-ganja-blog/2018/7/12/the-lost-art-of-temple-balls-a-hashish-master-and-his-student-explore-the-preservation-of-resin

 

From what I understand regarding the chemistry of THC and associated terpenes, once ingested, the liver converts cannabinoids to psilocybin compounds. 

 

I have no idea about the chemistry but I do remember the effect of those small rolls of Afghan stuff, very potent. As every ' brand' of hashish is different in what it does to the mind, these were sort of beyond that. And at least for me some psychedelic affects happened when 't was smoked pure like these guys do.

 

Walking into that room would get you high without even touching that pipe 

[Salvijus]

Hmmm... interesting answers, I appreciate it. But they lack substance and depth to it imo. I'm really interested in the energetic mechanics behind psychedelics. What happens when psychedelics are consumed and what does it do on the system? 

 

I heard some daoist are able to use plants to open up their channels when they are working with guidence and a master. And there're people who say it fucks with your system on many levels etc. I'm just interested in expanding my understanding. So if anybody has some interesting insight or perspective to share I'd really appreciate it. 

 

🙏

Edited February 5, 2022 by Salvijus

[ralis]

7 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Hmmm... interesting answers, I appreciate it. But they lack substance and depth to it imo. I'm really interested in the energetic mechanics behind psychedelics. What happens when psychedelics are consumed and what does it do on the system? 

 

I heard some daoist are able to use plants to open up their channels when they are working with guidence and a master. And there're people who say it fucks with your system on many levels etc. I'm just interested in expanding my understanding. So if anybody has some interesting insight or perspective to share I'd really appreciate it. 

 

🙏

 

Terrence McKenna's books would be a good place to start, but given the restricted scheduling by government drug warriors, research is difficult to come by.

[silent thunder]

7 hours ago, Gerard said:

You gain no wisdom and in the meantime become addicted to them.

 

Stay away and nothing replaces hard work! There is no substitute to this. 

Disagree entirely.  First off,  work does not need to be labored, difficult, hard or even serious to be merit filled.  Only sincere.  And often playfulness brings access to layers of insight precluded by overly serious approaches.  To return to the state of childlike (*awe, wonder)  this is an inroad to Tao.

 

You project with your certainty claim on wisdom.  Perhaps you've not experienced insight or derived wisdom in this method, perhaps you've never even tried it and this is fine, but this does not make you an authority on the topic.  Nor does it mean it does not occur for others, so that claim is projection/illusion.

 

And as to addictive properties.  Hallucinogens do not carry these markers.  It's well documented and hallucinogens after 50 years of ostricization by the psychiatric community is finally being brought out again clinically, to great benefit in trauma healing/end of life/terminal diagnosis treatment.

 

After any travel that way, I have always reacted by wanting to process what I've experienced and another trip is never desired.  Months and years pass between the calls to travel.

 

To each their own mate. 

[ralis]

Reddit.com is a very good resource for further reading on this subject.  r/Psychonaut sub Reddit. 

[ralis]

1 minute ago, silent thunder said:

Disagree entirely.  First off,  work does not need to be labored, difficult, hard or even serious to be merit filled.  Only sincere.  And often playfulness brings access to layers of insight precluded by overly serious approaches.  To return to the state of childlike (*awe, wonder)  this is an inroad to Tao.

 

You project with your certainty claim on wisdom.  Perhaps you've not experienced insight or derived wisdom in this method, perhaps you've never even tried it and this is fine, but this does not make you an authority on the topic.  Nor does it mean it does not occur for others, so that claim is projection/illusion.

 

And as to addictive properties.  Hallucinogens do not carry these markers.  It's well documented and hallucinogens after 50 years of ostricization by the psychiatric community is finally being brought out again clinically, to great benefit in trauma healing/end of life/terminal diagnosis treatment.

 

After any travel that way, I have always reacted by wanting to process what I've experienced and another trip is never desired.  Months and years pass between the calls to travel.

 

To each their own mate. 

Gerard always knows it all. Entheogens have been used by shamans, cultivators, for thousands of years for positive benefit. 

[silent thunder]

Yea, he's pretty rigid, though he has his moments of lucidity and being on point.  Just not in this case.  I know folks are aware, but I feel compelled lately to push back against such and give clear counterpoints.  Something in me refuses to remain silent as I so often used to.

 

That old Reagan-esque thinking is rife in our culture and needs to be countered and balanced when encountered; this has become increasingly crucial in recent years to me.

[ralis]

Entheogens are nothing more than gateways to various possibilities which many naive ones have no comprehension of. 

[silent thunder]

Aye, if they had no purpose, there would be no interactive mechanism with which to engage with them. 

 

We grew into this world alongside these fellow living things (indeed without fungus, there would be no forests and no us) and the various receptors that allow us to process and engage with these living substances seems a pretty clear indicator that they do have a palpable use and a place in our process.

 

Much of our development seems utterly intertwined in our relationship with them through the epochs.  As you say, shamanism is at the foundation of spiritual exploration/development and human culture as a whole.

 

Your recent topic on Mushrooms and Shamanism would be good to link to... I can't seem to find it with the site's search.

Edited February 5, 2022 by silent thunder

[S:C]

3 hours ago, ralis said:

gateways to various possibilities

Not all possibilities are ones you'd wish for...

 

Someone I grew up with in the local community experimented with drugs (starting with dope, over to hallucinating mushrooms and more...), and the effects made me - horrified of taking outside drugs (caffeine, wine etc excluded) especially those who are known for giving hallucinations. You never know if you are one out of the percentage of the population were 'something' (in the DNA or synapses) is triggered. It might be interesting if you are bored as fuck, have no will left to live, and have no interest in living in the community, have no responsibilities, no more goals left to follow, no family, no friends, no lover, no cat, no dog, if you wish to stay independent in your decisions with your life - I'd suggest caution.

Most of us live in a closely regulated modern society and not being able to perform will leave you at places where you don't wish to end up.

 

Here, a mild case... (unfortunatly only available in german, but maybe you can watch it with subtitles somewhere.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0276617/

 

(--> with the second link you can have automated subtitles via youtube, unfortunatly the translation sucks. but then again - hey - I once watched a whole 3h movie in italian once and did get what it was about...)

 

Spoiler

[Final scene of the movie - Luke]: For the doctors I was schizophrenic, for most others just a weirdo. I didn't care much what people called me. What I was searching for was a life I could live.

 

The white noise are all visions of all humans from all times at one point in time, Eno had told me. Something like God or the whole universe at the same time. Do you know what he also said, -? that he who sees the white noise has found the status of the highest illumination.

He who sees the white noise turns insane in an instant. Only if he is already insane, - then he gets cured (normal). The trip consists of going the path to enlightenment backwards, so to speak. At the beginning of this path, the chaos of mind stopps and there the very normal life starts. Of that I am sure.

 

 

 

Haven't watched this movie in what must be around 14 years... seeing the fragments of the person (who was such an independent spirit) the person I cared for disappear into something I cannot describe properly... and the effects it had on everyone around. The search for a cure, as the white noise might be, can be life consuming and without result.

 

Have no idea if this might be something anyone would want to call spiritual or this is anything anyone would wish for.

 

I'd believe the body has enough (beneficial) endogenous substances he can give you if you're ready for it. Personally, I wouldn't take that ever.

 

edit: imho - if you are susceptible to this - and you never know for sure - it doesn't necessarily matter under which circumstances or how often you take it. it can rattle your life into pieces in the worst way you can imagine (and more maybe) and take those close to you with you through hell on earth. I suggest caution.

Edited February 5, 2022 by questionmark
added link + words

[silent thunder]

4 minutes ago, questionmark said:

Not all possibilities are ones you'd wish for...

Agree.  No guarantees anywhere in life that any of it will be pleasant, or wished for, psychedelic, or sober; which is why I shared and highlighted this quoted bit in the opening of my reply to Salvijus.

 

On 2/4/2022 at 7:04 AM, silent thunder said:

My experiences have been beneficial.  Have no idea how they would react to anyone else.

 

And I wouldn't know how to begin offering any sort of advice to any other as to how, when, or if they should engage with these energies. 

 

[ralis]

6 minutes ago, questionmark said:

Not all possibilities are ones you'd wish for...

 

Someone I grew up with in the local community experimented with drugs (starting with dope, over to hallucinating mushrooms and more...), and the effects made me - horrified of taking outside drugs (caffeine, wine etc excluded) especially those who are known for giving hallucinations. You never know if you are one out of the percentage of the population were 'something' (in the DNA or synapses) is triggered. It might be interesting if you are bored as fuck, no will left to live, and have no interest in living in the community, have no responsibilities, no more goals left to follow, no family, no friends, no lover, no cat, no dog, if you wish to stay independent in your decisions with your life - I'd suggest caution.

Most of us live in a closely regulated modern society and not being able to perform will leave you at places where you don't wish to end up.

 

Here, a mild case... (unfortunatly only available in german, but maybe you can watch it with subtitles somewhere.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0276617/

 

Haven't watched this movie in what must be around 14 years... seeing the fragments of the person (who was such an independent spirit) the person I cared for disappear into something I cannot describe properly... and the effects it had on everyone around.

Have no idea if this might be something anyone would want to call spiritual or this is anything anyone would wish for.

 

I'd believe the body has enough (beneficial) endogenous substances he can give you if you're ready for it. Personally, I wouldn't take that ever.

 

I have seen a few people flip out and lose it while on LSD, mushrooms etc. There are many gateways with no return. Unfortunately, choosing the correct gateway is not always easy.