Anchoring the breath - regarding attention

[-_sometimes]

I've been practicing damo Mitchell's anchoring the breath exercise for about a month, now a daily exercise for me.

 

I recognize the importance of intention vs attention; I imagine proper attention is essentially development of Ting - listening. When it comes to attention, should there be any 'reaching out' at all? Mentally reaching out to find the area - and physical movement, no matter how small, when attempting to diffuse attention into an area of the body. In my head around my eyes, when placing attention, the muscles in my forehead and around my eyes tense up - very slightly, and this seems to occur whenever I try to direct my attention. 

 

I feel like I shouldn't be directing at all, but rather I should be completely still, not reaching out at all, not even the slightest little mental or physical movement, but somehow in a paradoxical sort of way, engage a particular part of the body. 

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, is it possible to place attention into different parts of the body from a localised approach? My attention direction is top-down based right now; the head seems to act as the centre point, and then moves down to place awareness wherever, but the body should be like this everywhere? Aka attention on the eyes should come from the eyes, attention on the abdominal cavity should come from the abdominal cavity, the attention of the nose should come from the nose not from some 'centre of control', which then moves according to where it's placed right?

 

Sorry for the poor explanation, and thank you

[-_sometimes]

Also, it's really really hard for me to maintain attention on multiple parts of the body at once, I can't quite figure out how to place attention across multiple areas at once, so I end up just skipping through attention of the different areas unable to hold attention of the entire thing together. Does anyone have any tips in this respect? 

[silent thunder]

...

Edited February 24, 2022 by silent thunder

[liminal_luke]

My awareness is still very much a top-down affair: I experience myself as residing in my head and scan my body from that vantage point.  This is OK but not ideal.  Teachers have told me that it's possible for a body part to be self-aware; for example, the lower dan tien can be aware of itself, no mind travel or reaching out required.  The same is true for other parts of the body -- liver, spinal vertebrae, feet, etc.  I think this is something that just comes with practice.

 

Not sure how much this pertains to your question sometimes but I thought I'd chime in.  If there are Bums who perceive themselves this way, I'd be interested in hearing about their experience and process.

[Cleansox]

2 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

Also, it's really really hard for me to maintain attention on multiple parts of the body at once, I can't quite figure out how to place attention across multiple areas at once, so I end up just skipping through attention of the different areas unable to hold attention of the entire thing together. Does anyone have any tips in this respect? 

It's one area, only big. 

Awareness will expand with time. 

[OKO696]

3 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

I've been practicing damo Mitchell's anchoring the breath exercise

Can I ask if you are following the free Orbit lesson or have you signed up for the Internal Arts Academy?

Thinking about signing up (on the fence)
 

[freeform]

You’re asking good questions  

 

4 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

should there be any 'reaching out' at all?

That’s what Damo calls ‘intention’.

 

So it’s not correct - but - you sometimes have to do incorrect and enhance your ability to do it correctly.

 

Like training wheels.

 

Ive learned a very similar method to anchoring the breath.
 

But in the way my teacher taught it, there was no direction or focusing of the attention… you just allowed it to sink if it’s own accord.

 

I think Damo’s method is far easier - with a similar end result. 
 

My teacher transmitted the result - which registers internally - and then as a student you train this until it becomes second nature.

 

Dividing it up in parts is a clever way to allow a beginner to create this for themselves without a teacher.

 

Just keep going… it takes years. You’re moving in the right direction. In terms of practices - this is probably the best ‘bang for the buck’ practice for anyone to do. The end result is life changing. But the unpopular truth is that it just takes years of repetition and refinement.

 

4 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

attention on multiple parts of the body at once

They stop being multiple parts and join together as one.

Your phone number is one number but you break it down into several groups of digits for your mind to be able to get it all.

 

Just keep going. 
 

Keep exploring how you can shave off active intention… how you can increase the depth of your attention. 
 

This practice is more about letting go and removing than it is about adding.
 

The paradoxical effect is that the more you let go, the more attentional ‘bandwidth’ and ‘depth’ will increase.
 

And your breath and emotional/mental reactivity will reduce significantly… and the more your qi will naturally sink… and the less your stress response will be active.

[-_sometimes]

2 hours ago, OKO696 said:

Can I ask if you are following the free Orbit lesson or have you signed up for the Internal Arts Academy

His free mco course. Just the first exercise, anchoring the breath. I intend to follow through the entire course, which should result in a functioning lower dantian and active microcosmic orbit - if this actually happens, then I will definitely sign up for his course, but I feel like right now the MCO course is more than enough to last several years of practice

[-_sometimes]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

So it’s not correct - but - you sometimes have to do incorrect and enhance your ability to do it correctly.

So, if your ability to pay attention is hardly existent, could it be better to use intention to at least have something to work with, and then slowly peel back the layers to leave attention remaining? 

 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

6 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

should there be any 'reaching out' at all?

That’s what Damo calls ‘intention’.

For example, I find if i actively try to drop this intention, I spend more time on attention vs intention than actually being aware at all of some part of the body. Is better to maintain awareness of the body at all times regardless of the quality of that awareness, and let go of intention as much as you are able without dropping the object of attention itself? Should the focus first and foremost be on the body?

 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

But in the way my teacher taught it, there was no direction or focusing of the attention… you just allowed it to sink if it’s own accord.

This was harder than Damo's approach because there is a strong likelihood of losing oneself in thoughts because there isn't really anything to 'hold onto'?

 

 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Just keep going. 

Thank you I will! I feel a little more in touch with myself and some of my tension forming behaviour already, I don't plan on stopping  

[freeform]

2 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

So, if your ability to pay attention is hardly existent, could it be better to use intention to at least have something to work with, and then slowly peel back the layers to leave attention remaining? 

The exercise is basically a form of directed attention. The directing it (and keeping it there) is the only ‘intention’ you want to use. 
 

I personally don’t like the words attention/intention for this - but that’s besides the point.

 

The point is that what you consider your ‘attention’ is, in reality, filled with a background hum of lots of competing ‘intentions’. One aspect of the exercise is to release these unconscious intentions by getting to direct attention of the physicality of your breathing (it’ll go past physicality in time by itself).

 

2 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

For example, I find if i actively try to drop this intention, I spend more time on attention vs intention than actually being aware at all of some part of the body. Is better to maintain awareness of the body at all times regardless of the quality of that awareness, and let go of intention as much as you are able without dropping the object of attention itself? Should the focus first and foremost be on the body?

I think what’s happening is that you’re softening your focus of your attention (in an attempt to drop intention) which easily leads to a daydreamy, trancey sort of state. You need to play around with the strength of your focus to be on the edge between spacey and strongly focused.

 

Trying to drop intention is an intention  

You can’t really ‘do’ anything… you can just become aware of your doing… often this awareness will in itself stop this doing.

 

Just allow your awareness to suffuse into the tissues of the area you’re attending to in a way that’s not too intense, but not too spaced out. You’ll begin to notice a fluid-like physicality to your attention eventually. 
 

Over time your ability to be stable with your awareness will increase. Also the depth/strength of awareness will increase without adding effort and intensity. This takes time - it’s like a muscle.

[Shadow_self]

On 13/02/2022 at 8:03 PM, freeform said:

You’re asking good questions  

 

That’s what Damo calls ‘intention’.

 

So it’s not correct - but - you sometimes have to do incorrect and enhance your ability to do it correctly.

 

Like training wheels.

 

Ive learned a very similar method to anchoring the breath.
 

But in the way my teacher taught it, there was no direction or focusing of the attention… you just allowed it to sink if it’s own accord.

 

I think Damo’s method is far easier - with a similar end result. 
 

My teacher transmitted the result - which registers internally - and then as a student you train this until it becomes second nature.

 

Dividing it up in parts is a clever way to allow a beginner to create this for themselves without a teacher.

 

Just keep going… it takes years. You’re moving in the right direction. In terms of practices - this is probably the best ‘bang for the buck’ practice for anyone to do. The end result is life changing. But the unpopular truth is that it just takes years of repetition and refinement.

 

They stop being multiple parts and join together as one.

Your phone number is one number but you break it down into several groups of digits for your mind to be able to get it all.

 

Just keep going. 
 

Keep exploring how you can shave off active intention… how you can increase the depth of your attention. 
 

This practice is more about letting go and removing than it is about adding.
 

The paradoxical effect is that the more you let go, the more attentional ‘bandwidth’ and ‘depth’ will increase.
 

And your breath and emotional/mental reactivity will reduce significantly… and the more your qi will naturally sink… and the less your stress response will be active.

 

We are taught the other way as well  Funnily enough, we were taught the way you were taught first...Just requires a lot more patience 

 

I think there's a lot to be said for understanding the Yinian, and how it relates to the simplified terminology Damo sometimes uses

 

Once I understood this stuff to a better extent... a lot of dots were joined in my head  

[awaken]

對於一個初學者剛開始下手的時候，佛陀的教法是有尋有伺，也就是注意力是處於一種可移動，可等待的狀態，而移動的原因是『有所緣』，對象是『善法』，也就是注意力放在好的現象上面。

 

什麼是好的現象？並非特定的身體部位，而是因為注意力的擺放，而出現的現象，也就是初禪的各種現象，麻，熱，動，鬆等等現象。

 

但是樓主似乎把注意力放在身體部位，而且還搞不清楚要放在哪個部位，顯然樓主所練習的方法是有問題的，並沒有很明確地告訴樓主該放在哪個地方，而這種情形下，樓主還堅持要練習這套方法，是不是該思考一下？

 

 

 

 

補充說明一下，在『善法』還沒有出現的時候，注意力可以放在呼吸，在善法出現之後，注意力就要放在善法，也就是因為呼吸而產生的好的現象。

 

為什麼稱為好的現象？因為這些現象會導致一連串的演化，讓注意力的狀態，從初禪的有尋有伺，慢慢演化成無尋有伺，最後演化為無尋無伺，這樣就會進入二禪狀態了，所以這些現象稱為好的現象，善法。

 

 

 

再補充一下，如果善法，也就是好的現象很多，這邊也有，那邊也有，那麼此時注意力該放在哪裡呢？

 

很簡單，就放在最明顯的地方，哪裡明顯就放哪裡（有伺），但是同時也要保持一個彈性，因為現象是會改變的，位置也會移動的，因此注意力必須跟著現象轉移，因此稱為『有尋』。

 

而當注意力能夠很穩固的放在好的現象上，而不會被雜念抓走的時候，此時就稱為『一心境』，也就是所謂的『一念』。

 

但是初禪狀態的『一心境』和二禪狀態的『一心境』狀態是不同的，這裡我就不說這麼清楚了，只是想跟樓主說一下，你這種練法是有問題的，最好放棄，免得浪費時間。

Edited March 6, 2022 by awaken

[-_sometimes]

@freeform is there anything I can do about preventing excess thought during practice? It feels a bit much when I practice and it lowers my alertness a great deal.. I've read that having a lot of qi can help one ignore thoughts, but I'm guessing any qi generating exercise is a mistake if you're not anchored 😅

[-_sometimes]

On 23/02/2022 at 8:30 PM, Shadow_self said:

We are taught the other way as well  Funnily enough, we were taught the way you were taught first...Just requires a lot more patience 

@freeform @Shadow_self why do you consider it to be harder than Damo Mitchell's exercise?

[Shadow_self]

46 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

@freeform @Shadow_self why do you consider it to be harder than Damo Mitchell's exercise?

 

Its more subtle in my opinion.

 

With the ATB exercise, although you are still using your attention (not intention! very important) You are literally tracing the path of your breath with your attention and then connecting it up section by section. Eventually the parts become the whole

 

Whereas with the other method...you are literally allowing it sink down by itself...It requires more patience and perseverance...and in my opinion (which is just that), it is less engaging...So you are literally just breathing and allowing it to sink...Eventually it'll start to go down.

 

I assume the transmission freeform mentioned would make it a bit easier? When you know what you're trying to do and understand what quality you're trying to develop....you tend to align and resonate with the practices to a greater degree. 

 

@freeform will explain this far better than my novice attempt  I just chimed in as you tagged me  

[freeform]

11 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

@freeform @Shadow_self why do you consider it to be harder than Damo Mitchell's exercise?

I think @Shadow_self gave a good explanation  

 

It’s like when you learning a complex movement it’s good to break it down into several smaller, simpler individual movements and then join them together. That’s what the anchoring the breath practice does.

 

12 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

@freeform is there anything I can do about preventing excess thought during practice?

It just takes time. Your mind is seeking stimulation. And the method just isn’t stimulating enough at the beginning.

 

Its like if you watch someone knitting - it’s boring and your mind will wander… but if you’re the one doing the knitting and you’ve gotten good enough, you get into a sort of flow with it - a kind of effortless concentration - that’s when the thoughts stop and there’s nothing but your knitting.

 

Treat the method not as something you’re doing to get a desired result… treat the method as the desired result itself. 
 

When someone is knitting they’re into the process itself - they enjoy it… they’re not just doing it to get a sweater… in fact often when you talk to knitters they get a little sad when they finish a garment - it’s like finishing a good book.

 

In the same way, the anchoring method (or any practice really) should be the aim in itself.

 

You can make the practice your own by further breaking down the method and exploring. For instance you could spend a whole session suffusing your mind into the nose and sinuses. Treat it as an exploration rather than something you’re doing to get some result out of it.

 

I seem to remember there being a turning point for me personally when I started treating practices as exploration. Slow things down, speed them up… break it up into even smaller individual parts… basically use it as a process of discovery and your mind will find it interesting enough that it doesn’t wonder.

 

When I say break it down into smaller parts… you could for instance get your awareness into the outer edge of the nostrils… then the upper inner wall of the nostrils… then the outer sides… then the inner sides… then the lower part… then a little deeper etc etc.
 

12 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

and it lowers my alertness a great deal..

 

Do you mean that you get into a daydreamy sort of space? Do you find you’re on the verge of drifting into sleep?

 

If that’s the case then it just takes time… your mind is used to only a couple of states of consciousness… so as it feels your mental grip relaxing it’s like your mind goes ‘oh yeah this is just like what happens when I’m falling asleep… it must be sleep time!’

 

So it just takes time to develop the mental ‘muscle’ to stay in a very relaxed yet focused state.

[-_sometimes]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

. For instance you could spend a whole session suffusing your mind into the nose and sinuses. Treat it as an exploration

I thought the exercise had to be done exactly as Damo set out, but you seem to be implying that it's more about building physical body awareness, the end result being an anchored breath as you bring the body parts together. I will try as you mentioned, I think it will help a lot! I have heavy difficulty feeling my throat at all, so entire sessions dedicated to it could be quite helpful, as well..

 

On the point of 'feeling my throat'.. I know you've run through this a little.. but am I correct in assuming that I essentially want to open my awareness to whatever the body or a body part is 'feeling', during this practice? Do I create a space, upon which the sensations from the body are projected? I feel this goes counter to what you mentioned earlier on in the thread, in terms of letting go, but I presume I must at least be aware of 'where' I'm placing my attention, not lose myself in it. Eg. I must know that I am paying attention to the abdominal cavity whilst simultaneously paying attention to the abdominal cavity?

 

Sorry for all the questions, it's more difficult than I expected 😅 

[freeform]

3 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

thought the exercise had to be done exactly as Damo set out, but you seem to be implying that it's more about building physical body awareness, the end result being an anchored breath as you bring the body parts together.

Yeah - obviously this is my personal suggestion - and Damo may well disagree…

 

I find it very valuable to take a step back with anything I’m learning at an early stage. Yes you’re not doing the practice ‘properly’ like this - but you break things down into even smaller parts just to explore and get yourself into it.

 

What I would suggest is to go through all of the sections each time you do it he practice… but you may want to go fast at certain points and take a lot more time at other sections that are either interesting to explore or difficult for you.

 

Once you develop some stability of mind and start having success with the method, the real value is spending time in the fully ‘anchored’ / absorbed state that comes about at the end of the exercise when your awareness is suffused through the whole compound breathing system.

[freeform]

3 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

On the point of 'feeling my throat'.. I know you've run through this a little.. but am I correct in assuming that I essentially want to open my awareness to whatever the body or a body part is 'feeling', during this practice?

It’s difficult for me to explain because I can’t remember what it was like beginning with this sort of method.

 

Eventually awareness becomes like a substance.

 

So my experience doing this practice is like this:

 

My awareness is like a thick, viscous liquid substance that slowly suffuses into the tissues, nerves and cells - part by part by itself.
 

The areas that are suffused feel like a huge landscape with a detailed terrain… it’s almost as if I can sense each individual nose hair… each fiber of the muscles around the ribs…

 

When fully suffused, each breath flows through the tissues in the body like a gentle breeze… the body expands and contracts with each breath.

 

If I stay stable and fully absorbed my awareness of the body dissipates… all that remains is an energetic pulse…

 

Then other stuff happens  

 

But this is my experience now.
 

The stage where the awareness becomes like a fluid was a key point.

 

Being stable with the mind (not allowing it to wander) was an important point too.

 

Just keep going and your questions will answer themselves.

 

Though of course I’m happy to help if I can.

[Creation]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

 

The stage where the awareness becomes like a fluid was a key point.

 

What do think facilitates this transition?  I can imagine a person doing anchoring the breath exactly as Damo describes it for years and not necessarily making this transition. 

[freeform]

6 hours ago, Creation said:

What do think facilitates this transition?  I can imagine a person doing anchoring the breath exactly as Damo describes it for years and not necessarily making this transition. 

Having Qi probably plays a part… but when I started with a similar practice, I didn’t have much extra qi… and the awareness did take on the fluid quality eventually.

I think stability of mind is probably a major stumbling block for most people. 
 

If you’re able to keep attending unwaveringly to your nose, it really doesn’t take long for attention to start to ‘penetrate’ or soak in deeper by itself. As it does, the tissues will respond - usually with release or Song. This is what gives the fluid like sensation I believe.
 

When you’re able to attend without the mind wavering, your awareness will condense like this.

We’ve been spoiled with lots of fun, novel stimulation… so the mind gets bored quickly and seeks stimulation before it has even settled onto the object of your ‘concentration’.

 

To get to the fluid quality shouldn’t take years at all though. 

It might be helpful to take a few days out as a retreat - cutting out all mental stimulation (stop consuming all media, all socialising and all stimulating food (plain rice, beans and steamed veggies instead - no salt, pepper, garlic, etc.)). This reset may be useful to get back to baseline. 
 

I’ve read about ‘dopamine detox’ online… which is similar.
 

It’s like coming off junk food. When you’re used to junk food, simple vegetables are tasteless and unsatisfying… simply because you’re used to having an hyper-stimulating combination of fat, sugar and salt (which doesn’t exist in nature).

 

A complete break from junk food will bring you to baseline enough that when you eat a cucumber you realise that your taste buds had been blunted to subtlety.

 

This is when a cucumber can be the most delicious, refreshing thing ever.

 

That is how awareness of the body should be.

 

The body is simply no match for a great Netflix series… or a new console game… or a night at the bar with friends.

 

Awareness of the body - compared to these stimuli - is very unsatisfactory (especially in the beginning when the body is not healthy and open enough to be a pleasant place to rest your awareness anyway).

 

Thats why the mind is agitated, unsatisfied and keeps looking for something more pleasant or more stimulating… and so it wavers constantly.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by freeform

[freeform]

I realise that these explanations fall short of being very helpful…

 

But in the early stages this training is  close to impossible.

 

It’s like learning to ride a bike or to juggle…

 

Theres only so much one can say to assist. 
 

But if you keep going - with real interest and dedication, you’ll get it eventually.

 

The attitude is ‘I’m going to make this work for me’… rather than the passive ‘I just go through the motions and it’ll magically do good for me’.

 

The other attitude that I found helpful is always assuming that you haven’t got it fully yet… however far along you are.

 

Whenever I thought - ‘I finally got it!’ my teacher would show me how that’s not the case yet.

 

For me this is actually quite motivating - but I can see how it could be demotivating for others.

Edited March 11, 2022 by freeform

[S:C]

What, I believe, helped me when I did this exercise months back, was like Mitchell said, to listen to the body, - to feel awareness like the body part mentioned is a loudspeaker (struggling with English here, maybe the word I mean is amplifier? like the new sonos thing, where they have microphone (in) and loudspeaker (out) and giving out a bigger signal than from the source it comes from). (it works with music relaxation.)And it worked best for me (like losing body contours, but gaining presence (unfitting word?) in surroundings)  when I was mentally (& ideally physically) exhausted, so after mentally stimulating work over long periods of time. Then it worked great. Now, not so much, at the moment I struggle with focus and mind wandering. And when I do this now, it seems like I project/imagine the body part in front of me, but not at the place where it actually is. Which is wrong, I guess. 

 

(I don't do this with any other purpose, than to slow down brain activity and get to a more relaxed physical / balanced state, lol.)

 

 

@Shadow_self, I believe in the exercise Mitchell said _not_ to follow the breath in and out, but to rest awareness on the specific scope, am I wrong here or are you following another lecture? 

 

It's probably good to have anatomical knowledge, - I only know (via surfing & other stuff) that there are muscles where I never knew there could be some... so that's a challenge too, for me, or listen to the diaphragm... where's that supposed to be and what's that like (tough one...)?

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by questionmark
unsure with words

[Piyadasi]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

I realise that these explanations fall short of being very helpful…

I think they are very helpful 🙏

@Creation @-_sometimes

Just from experience, if you follow what Damo teaches, the fluid-like experience will come. Just needs time and skill. I definitely don't have it close to the level of freeform though (need something to work towards anyways!)

[awaken]

把注意力放在身體，而且一直定位在身體，這種練法絕對是錯的，只會造成置心一處，而停留在置心一處這種心態，是無法造成禪定的，有太多大師誤入這樣的誤區，而且停留在這裡，一輩子無法進步，還把錯誤的方法教給初學者，誤導更多人。

 

可惜我英文太爛，你們看不懂我寫什麼，我也就留下紀錄，告訴你們，這種練法百分百是錯誤的，不要再繼續錯下去了。

 

真正的練法，不管是道家還是佛家，都是呼吸下手，但是並非停留在呼吸，可能幾秒鐘之後，就轉移到氣感，幾分鐘之後，就轉移到光感，半小時之後，就轉移到入定，一個多小時後，就出定，幾乎都是這樣的程序。

 

你們卻把幾秒鐘的事情，擴大成一兩個小時的事情，這不是練錯又是什麼？