Order is freedom

[Apech]

I've come to the conclusion that in recent times we have been spun a myth of freedom. I mean this in all senses, spiritual, personal, social and so on – that the optimum state is to do what you want, be who you want, say what you want – and that this constitutes freedom or liberty.

 

To free something or somebody means to remove restrictions and allow them to move as they will. So to that extent to call yourself free (and not a slave) does mean an unrestricted state. But for someone who actually goes through this process they will quickly realise that in the real world it is not that simple. Even released from bondage you still need to live in the world. So what does freedom look like then?

 

Spiritually you might think of a totally free state where one transcends completely the limitations of the world, where your spirit is released from limitation to move freely where it wills. This sounds a lot like death. A spirit released from the body to roam free – but in being free has no interaction with any other being or thing.

 

That does not seem like a particularly attractive or worthy goal.

 

If we think about the 'dom' part of the word freedom – it actually means a regulated state, a dominion for instance. A kind of dome or space in which freeness is exercised. Seen in this way the idea of freedom takes on a slightly different meaning. Gone is the idea of total release from all restraint and the new meaning is the ability to move at will in one's own sphere - in one's own world. That dome is a limitation in absolute terms – as there is that which is the beyond the sphere also – but it does not carry the same imprisoning sense as a form of bondage.

 

So thinking in terms of my physical environment, my social relationships, the country I live in and so on – what would it take to make myself free? And the answer I propose, far from the ability to move about without any limitation, is order. If you establish order in your affairs it allows you to operate without interference or struggle. For instance if you set your finances in order then you are not continually worrying about paying bills or desperate to find food. If you establish order in your personal relationships then you avoid drama and distraction.

 

Order is freedom and freedom is order.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Apech

[liminal_luke]

Who experiences greater freedom -- a Buddhist monk or a hard partying bachelor with a trust fund?  Although the bachelor has less constraints on his behavior, I think it's likely the monk would feel a greater sense of freedom.  Not that I've ever been either.

[Bhathen]

Order reminds me of a teacher who was deeply into home organization following the principles of Marie Kondo. The more everything was set to order. the more the mind became constrained and unaccepting of the outside world (maybe not all cases).

 

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

Bringing order to chaos is half of freedom, bringing warmth and compassion to order would be the other half. The freedom would be freedom from investing consciousness in chaos or order, and then consciousness can be invested in the next thing along. I don’t know what that is though. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Bindi

[zerostao]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Spiritually you might think of a totally free state where one transcends completely the limitations of the world, where your spirit is released from limitation to move freely where it wills. This sounds a lot like death. A spirit released from the body to roam free – but in being free has no interaction with any other being or thing.

 

That does not seem like a particularly attractive or worthy goal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In myths, profound truths are discovered. It usually takes a heroic effort of an individual to experience rather than think to find themselves in a mythic scene with other mythic players. One could be in perfect synchronicity and find their way there too.

Freedom is sublime level, higher realms. It must be tasted to be understood. In these realms we are participating in, Liberty is highly idealized and sought.  

 

What I want to speak to is the part of your post above. It is at the center of your post.

" A spirit released from the body to roam free – but in being free has no interaction with any other being or thing."

 

 That isn't how it is.

 

 

[old3bob]

there are laws related to all the levels of being, breaking of those laws results in falling to a lower level of being (and its karma's to be worked out) - thus one would experience a loss of a previous level of freedom that went with the previous level of being.  The other direction would be the opposite.  Mountains away there is a point of no return or no falling back but before then I'd say we walk a razor's edge.  

[C T]

Excellent discussion point. 

 

I remember J. Krishnamurti spoke quite extensively on this subject. Something he said struck me as totally logical - "Order is not conformity to a pattern; it is a deepened understanding of disorder."

 

Perhaps one way to allow the seed of order to flower is to become totally exhausted, fed up, exasperated, sapped, to the point of giving up on fear and endless chores, both mental and physical. At that point, its quite probable that for some, the brilliance of innate compassion and wisdom floods the being, and coupled with this arises a profound revelation of what order means in the true sense. Its certainly far removed from the shallowness of a mere adaptation of minimalist choices and then exercising them in one's environment. This tends to exacerbate subconscious fears of not being enough, and actually drives disorder deeper into the subtle alaya. 

[silent thunder]

[Apech]

16 hours ago, Bhathen said:

Order reminds me of a teacher who was deeply into home organization following the principles of Marie Kondo. The more everything was set to order. the more the mind became constrained and unaccepting of the outside world (maybe not all cases).

 

 

 

 

 

 

This seems to me like order for order's sake - which is not really what I meant.  Ordering objects like that is really just a categorisation process e.g. something blue, round, plastic etc.  It is only an aesthetic and not really of any use.

 

If you had a garden you could just dig it over and then randomly throw seeds in all directions and see what grows where.  (actually I'd quite like that) but mostly people tend to plant in beds or rows so they know what is where.  And that's not just about being neat and tidy - in terms of gardening its more efficient if you need to know how much water/fertilizer and wotnot to use and where.  Same goes for shopping lists versus just walking down the supermarket aisles chucking whatever catches your eye into the trolley.

 

My point is - order for freedom.  Not order for the sake of order.

 

 

[Apech]

14 hours ago, zerostao said:

In myths, profound truths are discovered. It usually takes a heroic effort of an individual to experience rather than think to find themselves in a mythic scene with other mythic players. One could be in perfect synchronicity and find their way there too.

Freedom is sublime level, higher realms. It must be tasted to be understood. In these realms we are participating in, Liberty is highly idealized and sought.  

 

What I want to speak to is the part of your post above. It is at the center of your post.

" A spirit released from the body to roam free – but in being free has no interaction with any other being or thing."

 

 That isn't how it is.

 

 

 

Well I'll take your word for it oh bodiless one.

 

I suppose what I was getting at was that there can be a kind of abstract idea of the transcendental - to which some people wish to escape.  But suppose you did - then you would have to find your way back to make sense of the actual - or it would be some kind of frozen death like state.  It's a bit like some people say that you can experience or see consciousness and that's enough - when actually there's a whole other process.

 

 

[Apech]

22 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

 

 

Life is reverse entropy - as energy is put in to order a system/body/being in some way.  Just as life on earth is dependent on solar energy.

 

 

[doc benway]

23 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

 

I’ve been reading some very interesting things related to entropy and time, the subject has fascinated me for a long time. There are many misconceptions, even in the scientific community. Fascinating stuff.

 

Here is a somewhat technical but fascinating article on the subject.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7516914/

Another great resource is the book Time's Arrow and Archimedes' Point by Huw Price.

 

Regarding freedom, the greatest sense of freedom I’ve yet experienced is the ability to be with whatever is currently present in my field of awareness without feeling compelled to judge or change it. Being equally OK with order and disorder alike. I agree that a certain sense of order can be liberating and yet freedom does not need to depend on circumstances, like the degree of order. It can be more fluid and flexible than that, although this type of freedom can also quite fragile and elusive. 

[dwai]

IMHO, freedom (as in spiritual freedom) is actually freedom from the bondage of craving and aversion, and hence from suffering. Indeed, as you observed, one still has to "live" in the world after the purported spiritual liberation. Freedom doesn't mean one will disappear in a puff of smoke, materialize and dematerialize their body as they deem fit, or for the most parts freedom from the natural laws that govern the material universe. But rather, freedom is in not clinging to the perceived pleasurable/good, and not running away from the perceived unpleasant/bad phenomena one experiences in life. The freedom is from the identifixation with the personality, circumstances and conditions one might find themselves in. 

[zerostao]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Well I'll take your word for it oh bodiless one.

Oh, I assure you, I have a physical body. When I was around 8, my Mamaw explained to me, yes, I have a physical body but that ain't me. At 13, when I told her it was a thin veil separating physical and spiritual, she told me that was a comfort to her to hear that from me. I digress.

I probably should have just addressed your post in general and not get hung up on a single point of it. Because, I can see what your getting at. 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

I suppose what I was getting at was that there can be a kind of abstract idea of the transcendental - to which some people wish to escape.  But suppose you did - then you would have to find your way back to make sense of the actual - or it would be some kind of frozen death like state.  It's a bit like some people say that you can experience or see consciousness and that's enough - when actually there's a whole other process.

 

 

I agree that for something spiritual to be useful in this physical realm that it has to be brought back to the physical from the spiritual realm. One can observe many marvelous things out there, often it is quite another task bringing that back. I don't think that  I would compare it to a frozen death state. Death is somewhat a deep subject to address IMO. Less deep that the subject of Birth IMO.

 

Instead of transcendental or supernatural; I think it's useful to think of transformation. 

I usually rail against purely objective reasoning, however, here, now, I will turn absolutely Objective reasoning.

Objectivity, leads us to an object, in this case, the object is the process. 

 

Hey steve, I like that post. And dwai's post.

 

Apech, here we are in the same physical realm and yet living in entirely two distinct worlds. Finances? 

 

 

 

 

[zerostao]

17 hours ago, Bindi said:

Bringing order to chaos is half of freedom, bringing warmth and compassion to order would be the other half. The freedom would be freedom from investing consciousness in chaos or order, and then consciousness can be invested in the next thing along. I don’t know what that is though. 

Invest in Love.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

IMHO, freedom (as in spiritual freedom) is actually freedom from the bondage of craving and aversion, and hence from suffering. Indeed, as you observed, one still has to "live" in the world after the purported spiritual liberation. Freedom doesn't mean one will disappear in a puff of smoke, materialize and dematerialize their body as they deem fit, or for the most parts freedom from the natural laws that govern the material universe. But rather, freedom is in not clinging to the perceived pleasurable/good, and not running away from the perceived unpleasant/bad phenomena one experiences in life. The freedom is from the identifixation with the personality, circumstances and conditions one might find themselves in. 

 

i was trying to say something much more simple - that the way towards freedom lies not in an individual doing what they want - but actually in establishing order in one's life.  In fact I would say that in order to be able to release from identification it would be best pragmatically to order your life - rather than say seek the freedom to do whatever you want.

[dwai]

33 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

i was trying to say something much more simple - that the way towards freedom lies not in an individual doing what they want - but actually in establishing order in one's life.  In fact I would say that in order to be able to release from identification it would be best pragmatically to order your life - rather than say seek the freedom to do whatever you want.

Ah! I see, and I agree. Order and discipline are necessary for spiritual practices. If someone seeks freedom to be able to do whatever they want, that is certainly counterproductive -- doing what one wants to do, is also a trap - because it is almost always tied to some form of craving or aversion.

 

Ramana Maharshi had a saying, "you need a thorn to remove a thorn that's stuck deep in your foot", or in other words, using a needle to remove a splinter. Discipline/order is akin to the needle, which might be necessary to remove craving and aversion from one's life. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by dwai

[Taomeow]

19 hours ago, Bhathen said:

Order reminds me of a teacher who was deeply into home organization following the principles of Marie Kondo. The more everything was set to order. the more the mind became constrained and unaccepting of the outside world (maybe not all cases).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Methinks that teacher completely misunderstood Marie Kondo -- and the picture shows what a hoarder with OCD might do with misunderstood principles. 

 

The whole idea of "Konmari method" is to make one's immediate environment easier and more enjoyable to interact with, not to dominate your everyday activities with order for order's sake.  Her whole deal is about unlearning the habitual mindless pattern (be it order or disorder) and learning mindful ones.  The foundation of Marie Kondo's method lies in her deep personal immersion in Shinto -- she spent five years of her life working as a miko -- a Shinto shrine maiden.  Miko, whose responsibilities appear humble to a superficial glance (she assists priests with rituals, sell omamori -- charms and amulets -- and helps clean the shrine grounds), historically used to be powerful religious figures, highly regarded and thought of in the community as carriers of practical, life-enhancing wisdom.  

 

Order that is mindlessly installed, order for order's sake, order originating from without (rather than from within) and serving those external forces and entities who unleash it onto you to serve them rather than you, tends to be repressive, enslaving and lifeless, whether in one's home or in one's country.  Those forced, coerced or brainwashed to obey it tend to get mindlessly enslaved by those who force, coerce or brainwash them into obeying it.  Whereas order that makes everyday life easier and more enjoyable is, indeed, one of the prerequisites of freedom. 

 

Where the fine line lies between the two is -- well, elsewhere, not in the amount of order per se but in its purpose.  Which is for everyone to discover -- and if necessary work toward or even fight for.  Sometimes against oneself and one's habitual mindless patterns.  And sometimes against external forces dictating mindless life-defeating acceptance of one's enslavement.  

[Apech]

Thank you everyone so far - that last post by @Taomeow was very nice (I thought you had gone  ).

 

Another aspect of order in one's life which I hesitate to mention because I fear it will be understood - is that one's order and discipline relies on obedience.

 

I have been spending some time on medieval and feudal history and one thing that struck me time and time again, is that the heart of the hierarchy of feudal society relies on the relationship between people.  That of fealty and love.  Love in the sense that Shakespeare means it - not romantic love but a deep personal commitment to another.  Nowadays kings are portrayed as tyrants (which of course some became) - but that state is an aberration.  A true monarch works by inspiring love and trust in his (sometimes her) subjects.

 

Today we have democracy and law.  Our leaders lead us through a social contract and by statute.  Sometimes we have leaders who evoke personal allegiance - but mostly not.  In fact we despise most politicians even if we respect their skills.  How different this is to the ideal relationship between ourselves and those who rule?

 

I am not suggesting that we go back to feudal systems by the way - just remarking on how we have lost something - something with heart.

 

In Tibetan Buddhism there is 'mo gu' to the guru/master.  This is often translated as devotion but is probably closer to Shakespearian love.  Indeed in most systems the master/student relationship is vital - even though devalued and distorted in these dark times of kali yuga.  I know, I know - people can be and are exploited - so many cases.

 

We have been trained I think, by the societies in which we live, to assess those to whom we give leadership through technocracy, clever verbal skills, image and a vague appeal to values.  This I think, has distorted us.

 

 Hand in hand with 'order for freedom' is fealty and love for a master, teacher, guru etc.  Replace 'no one tells me what to do' with surrender (?).

 

(I hope I have expressed this adequately but I am struggling a little for the right words). 

[Bindi]

Entering into a dark room that was in chaos (it looked like it had been ransacked with furniture and papers strewn everywhere), I tried to straighten up a knocked over armchair but found it was too heavy to budge, so instead I climbed onto the upended armchair and just sat, facing a double door. From the corner of my eye I could see small shadowy figures huddling in groups amidst the chaos, whispering to each other and giggling. In time, it was three days I recall, the door opened, and curious, I went through, where I saw an army standing to attention in two perfect rows facing each other, impeccably dressed in white officers clothes (but with black details, black buttons, black braid on their white caps, black shoes). I backed into a wall in this room and flattened myself against it as far as I could to get out of their way, and I watched as they swivelled their heads in unison from where they had been looking (up and outwards) towards the double door now that the doors were open. Then, again as one, they started to move through the doorway into the dark and chaotic room, where they each paired up with one of the shadowy figures from the dark room at a piece of furniture that was overturned. In unison the officers said, each to their own shadowy person, “When I say lift, you lift” so each shadow person bent down and put their hands ready underneath their piece of furniture and waited for the signal, and when each paired officer said “Lift” (again in unison), they lifted in unison, and in a moment everything was upright and in order. 
 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Bindi

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Thank you everyone so far - that last post by @Taomeow was very nice (I thought you had gone  ).

 

I was indeed gone, but the order which is acceptable to me has been restored, so I'm back.  

 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Another aspect of order in one's life which I hesitate to mention because I fear it will be understood - is that one's order and discipline relies on obedience.

 

I have been spending some time on medieval and feudal history and one thing that struck me time and time again, is that the heart of the hierarchy of feudal society relies on the relationship between people.  That of fealty and love.  Love in the sense that Shakespeare means it - not romantic love but a deep personal commitment to another.  Nowadays kings are portrayed as tyrants (which of course some became) - but that state is an aberration.  A true monarch works by inspiring love and trust in his (sometimes her) subjects.

 

Today we have democracy and law.  Our leaders lead us through a social contract and by statute.  Sometimes we have leaders who evoke personal allegiance - but mostly not.  In fact we despise most politicians even if we respect their skills.  How different this is to the ideal relationship between ourselves and those who rule?

 

I am not suggesting that we go back to feudal systems by the way - just remarking on how we have lost something - something with heart.

 

In Tibetan Buddhism there is 'mo gu' to the guru/master.  This is often translated as devotion but is probably closer to Shakespearian love.  Indeed in most systems the master/student relationship is vital - even though devalued and distorted in these dark times of kali yuga.  I know, I know - people can be and are exploited - so many cases.

 

We have been trained I think, by the societies in which we live, to assess those to whom we give leadership through technocracy, clever verbal skills, image and a vague appeal to values.  This I think, has distorted us.

 

 Hand in hand with 'order for freedom' is fealty and love for a master, teacher, guru etc.  Replace 'no one tells me what to do' with surrender (?).

 

(I hope I have expressed this adequately but I am struggling a little for the right words). 

 

According to Laozi:

“A leader is best when people barely know he exists. Not so good when people love him. Worse when they fear him.  The worst -- when they despise him. 

But of a good leader who talks little, when his work is done and his aim fulfilled, people will say: ‘We did it ourselves." 

 

 

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, zerostao said:

Invest in Love.

Odds are this or something similar is the end result, but I don’t think it’s advised until the earlier issues (chaos and order) are authentically resolved. This is one of my issues with Christianity today, it’s too hard to love when the internals are still messed up.

[Nungali]

On 18/02/2022 at 9:11 AM, Apech said:

I've come to the conclusion that in recent times we have been spun a myth of freedom. I mean this in all senses, spiritual, personal, social and so on – that the optimum state is to do what you want, be who you want, say what you want – and that this constitutes freedom or liberty.

 

To free something or somebody means to remove restrictions and allow them to move as they will. So to that extent to call yourself free (and not a slave) does mean an unrestricted state. But for someone who actually goes through this process they will quickly realise that in the real world it is not that simple. Even released from bondage you still need to live in the world. So what does freedom look like then?

 

Spiritually you might think of a totally free state where one transcends completely the limitations of the world, where your spirit is released from limitation to move freely where it wills. This sounds a lot like death. A spirit released from the body to roam free – but in being free has no interaction with any other being or thing.

 

That does not seem like a particularly attractive or worthy goal.

 

If we think about the 'dom' part of the word freedom – it actually means a regulated state, a dominion for instance. A kind of dome or space in which freeness is exercised. Seen in this way the idea of freedom takes on a slightly different meaning. Gone is the idea of total release from all restraint and the new meaning is the ability to move at will in one's own sphere - in one's own world. That dome is a limitation in absolute terms – as there is that which is the beyond the sphere also – but it does not carry the same imprisoning sense as a form of bondage.

 

So thinking in terms of my physical environment, my social relationships, the country I live in and so on – what would it take to make myself free? And the answer I propose, far from the ability to move about without any limitation, is order. If you establish order in your affairs it allows you to operate without interference or struggle. For instance if you set your finances in order then you are not continually worrying about paying bills or desperate to find food. If you establish order in your personal relationships then you avoid drama and distraction.

 

Order is freedom and freedom is order.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ooooo !  What an old and out of date attitude !    

 

' My Brother, first, let me acquaint you  with the first paradox of philosophy  ....... in order to gain freedom to do your will, you must put yourself under  discipline and organisation ....  "

 

So said my first initiator , in my first imitation into the western mysteries , first sentence of first knowledge lecture .  Then many examples where given .

 

I think here, the best example might be Yoga  ;  to gain freedom in your body ; freedom and ease of movement , freedom from restrictions ( of a tight and tense body )  you have to go through , perhaps, pain and discomfort first .

 

The dawn meditation is good example too , especially if that includes  yoga ;   It involves discipline;  "  ' get out of bed 'you' ! " One might think the 'free' and 'do what you WANT ' person , sleeping in has freedom .  Its all tied in with 'higher' and 'lower' aspects of the self .

 

I tried to get this concept across  when I taught ( adapted ) heremetics at local school ( year 10 )  .... nope , they where not having it ... until ;

 

" Okay , you want to be free to do whatever you want to .... Duncan ! What do you want to be free to do , pick anything or your favourite thing , or even a real intention  you have . "

 

" I AM GOING TO BE    ( loved his self assurance )  a top class first grade soccer player ... professionally , I want to make a living from it as well . "

 

'Thats going to take a bit of training  .... giving up other stuff  ... getting up early , flogging yourself  .....   "

 

Then they got it .

 

 

I even find that I have to put in a lot of effort to maintain my current level of laziness .

 

-  I will go out and mow the lawn now  ..... even though I dont want to or feel like it , not due to any sense of  anything except .... when the grass gets longer , its harder to push the mower through it  

 

Dont mow it all ?   Then there is the 'bother' of getting tics, avoiding snakes  ......   Oooooooooh    the pain !

 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

On 18/02/2022 at 10:06 AM, Bhathen said:

Order reminds me of a teacher who was deeply into home organization following the principles of Marie Kondo. The more everything was set to order. the more the mind became constrained and unaccepting of the outside world (maybe not all cases).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whaaaat ! 

 

Chaos !   What is that soft toy  doing in top row second from right !

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

 

i was trying to say something much more simple - that the way towards freedom lies not in an individual doing what they want - but actually in establishing order in one's life.  In fact I would say that in order to be able to release from identification it would be best pragmatically to order your life - rather than say seek the freedom to do whatever you want.

 

Ah yes, the old misunderstanding  when people have interpreted ' Do what thou WILT ' ( basically , structure everything towards your main aims )   to  'Do whatever you feel like doing in that moment'  . 

 

I can maintain ease of my body by undertaking yoga    (  ...oh  Man !  do I HAVE TO  ?    )

 

or , I could shoot up some heroin   (   ahhhhhh    ..... what body  ?    )   .  Thing is , after a while I will need more in a single dose  .... and more again until I will be taking  large doses just to feel 'normal' and when I stop  .... VERY 'uncomfortable' in the body .

 

And yes , this is the path we chose to go down , en mass , in many things  ;  pop the pill, dont treat the cause  ;  its  a mode that has caused serious environmental  and psychological problems as well .