Order is freedom

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Thank you everyone so far - that last post by @Taomeow was very nice (I thought you had gone  ).

 

Another aspect of order in one's life which I hesitate to mention because I fear it will be understood - is that one's order and discipline relies on obedience.

 

I have been spending some time on medieval and feudal history and one thing that struck me time and time again, is that the heart of the hierarchy of feudal society relies on the relationship between people.  That of fealty and love.  Love in the sense that Shakespeare means it - not romantic love but a deep personal commitment to another.  Nowadays kings are portrayed as tyrants (which of course some became) - but that state is an aberration.  A true monarch works by inspiring love and trust in his (sometimes her) subjects.

 

Yes.  'Agape' not 'Eros'  .  This is apparent in the Zoroastrian concept of 'Good KIngship '   going back to 'mythical' King Jamsheed  ( all of a sudden , somehow, a different idea other than  'warlord force'  formed a new type of society  ) and entered history with Cyrus the Great ( known as great due to these principles ) .

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Today we have democracy and law.  Our leaders lead us through a social contract and by statute.  Sometimes we have leaders who evoke personal allegiance - but mostly not.  In fact we despise most politicians even if we respect their skills.  How different this is to the ideal relationship between ourselves and those who rule?

 

I am not suggesting that we go back to feudal systems by the way - just remarking on how we have lost something - something with heart.

 

In Tibetan Buddhism there is 'mo gu' to the guru/master.  This is often translated as devotion but is probably closer to Shakespearian love.  Indeed in most systems the master/student relationship is vital - even though devalued and distorted in these dark times of kali yuga.  I know, I know - people can be and are exploited - so many cases.

 

We have been trained I think, by the societies in which we live, to assess those to whom we give leadership through technocracy, clever verbal skills, image and a vague appeal to values.  This I think, has distorted us.

 

 Hand in hand with 'order for freedom' is fealty and love for a master, teacher, guru etc.  Replace 'no one tells me what to do' with surrender (?).

 

(I hope I have expressed this adequately but I am struggling a little for the right words). 

 

Freedom to express your true nature  is known as 'The Law'   yet its 'mode' of operation  is ( we are told ) , love ;   " Love is the Law . "

 

 

[Apech]

On 2/19/2022 at 3:39 AM, Nungali said:

 

Yes.  'Agape' not 'Eros'  .  This is apparent in the Zoroastrian concept of 'Good KIngship '   going back to 'mythical' King Jamsheed  ( all of a sudden , somehow, a different idea other than  'warlord force'  formed a new type of society  ) and entered history with Cyrus the Great ( known as great due to these principles ) .

 

 

 

 

Freedom to express your true nature  is known as 'The Law'   yet its 'mode' of operation  is ( we are told ) , love ;   " Love is the Law . "

 

 

 

[thelerner]

To me, discipline is a better word than order.  Discipline is freedom. 

 

Health, wealth, relationships, all take a measure of discipline.  At least until the discipline/habit becomes ingrained.  I've always liked the saying The wise man likes what is good for him.  To a great extent we can 'program' ourselves and not be stuck in child-mode or cultural defaults. 

[Nungali]

38 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

 

Like my  last night's  dream  about  the cat and the baseball bat  ?

[zerostao]

3 hours ago, thelerner said:

To me, discipline is a better word than order.  Discipline is freedom. 

 

Health, wealth, relationships, all take a measure of discipline.  At least until the discipline/habit becomes ingrained.  I've always liked the saying The wise man likes what is good for him.  To a great extent we can 'program' ourselves and not be stuck in child-mode or cultural defaults. 

"The wise man likes what is good for him."

 

I am kinda struggling with the word "order" too. Chaos cannot be avoided all the time; there is always going to be some chaos now and then. And some of the "order" I find myself dealing with seems absurd. And dealing with chaos or the absurd; the right self discipline should get one by. 

 

I also wanted to place this from @Nungali here:

"Freedom to express your true nature  is known as 'The Law'   yet its 'mode' of operation  is ( we are told ) , love ;   " Love is the Law . "

 

 Being true to oneself, being authentic, those are also key ingredients to freedom. You can't be fake and claim to be free. Conforming to fit in with 'order" or the norms that are imposed on us, hm. 

Maybe we are in a purposeless, chaotic universe. Saying that freedom is found in order, perhaps is a way to try and create some meaning and sometimes the universe can be quite cold or indifferent when it comes to searching for meaning.

 

I think acceptance is a word that gets one closer to freedom. Living in the present IMO is another key ingredient.

 

"Man is born free but everywhere is in chains."

---Rousseau

 

I think to be free requires being a bit of a rebel. there is no true living without freedom. Being able to express one's true nature, like Nungali said, is vital. Without being able to do that, there would be no good living in the present.

None of us will ever be in full control of events facing us. Being able to accept the chaos when it appears, ability to adapt to change--because, even if one were in a state of pure order---that will change/transform into something different.

Having freedom anchored to order, limits freedom. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by zerostao

[Apech]

20 hours ago, zerostao said:

"The wise man likes what is good for him."

 

I am kinda struggling with the word "order" too. Chaos cannot be avoided all the time; there is always going to be some chaos now and then. And some of the "order" I find myself dealing with seems absurd. And dealing with chaos or the absurd; the right self discipline should get one by. 

 

This is partly what I was posting about.  I think 'order' - which essentially means put things in a row - is a fine word which we have been conditioned not to like.  Especially since the second world war 'order' has become a dirty word - meaning something like oppression e.g. the Nazis wanted order but we want to be freeeee.  When actually what the Nazis willed into being was heightened disorder and chaos.  We even have phrases like New World Order which make the blood run cold.  Why?  Because we sense it will be more of the same faux order of some kind of ideological enforced code, which results in stresses and strains which break out into war and death.

 

I didn't talk about chaos because I wanted to stress order.  But actually order is supported by chaos.  Der what?  I hear you say.  In the Egyptian world view, the world was structured as a kind of bubble.  Earth below, sky arcing above supported by four pillars.  The gods representing the structured world of order = ma'at were the Nine, the Ennead.  The chaos gods were the Eight (the Ogdoad) - sometimes represented as frogs and water snakes - amphibians half in and half out of the water.

 

The formula is 8 + 1 = 9.  which means chaos plus unifying principle equals order.  The unifying principle being 'itm' or 'completeness'.  Ma'at or order (the daughter of the creative) is maintained within the structure of the cosmos and renewed continually by the interpenetrating forces of chaos.

 

Or to put it another way the Logos was God and with God from the 'beginning' - meaning the creation of the cosmos which is God's temple - from the surface of the deep.

 

20 hours ago, zerostao said:

 

I also wanted to place this from @Nungali here:

"Freedom to express your true nature  is known as 'The Law'   yet its 'mode' of operation  is ( we are told ) , love ;   " Love is the Law . "

 

 Being true to oneself, being authentic, those are also key ingredients to freedom. You can't be fake and claim to be free. Conforming to fit in with 'order" or the norms that are imposed on us, hm. 

 

You are expressing freedom as being antinomian.  Yeah but 'Love' is the law.  Law is an ordered relation isn't it?  You are expressing freedom as authenticity which basically means you write your own book.  But to write a book you need words - and words are ordering principles.  In the beginning was the word again.

 

20 hours ago, zerostao said:

Maybe we are in a purposeless, chaotic universe. Saying that freedom is found in order, perhaps is a way to try and create some meaning and sometimes the universe can be quite cold or indifferent when it comes to searching for meaning.

 

A universe means literally 'one - turn' and is the created structured world.  The purposeless, chaotic universe is in my view a myth created to beat us down and to destroy our morale, like an army faced with overwhelming odds.

 

 

20 hours ago, zerostao said:

I think acceptance is a word that gets one closer to freedom. Living in the present IMO is another key ingredient.

 

"Man is born free but everywhere is in chains."

---Rousseau

 

Yeah he said that - but it is patently not true.  We are born unfree and limited, physically, mentally, socially and in everyway you can think of.  As in India ur birth is jati - we have a fixed arc - but luckily it is possible to get the nirvana out.

 

20 hours ago, zerostao said:

I think to be free requires being a bit of a rebel. there is no true living without freedom. Being able to express one's true nature, like Nungali said, is vital. Without being able to do that, there would be no good living in the present.

None of us will ever be in full control of events facing us. Being able to accept the chaos when it appears, ability to adapt to change--because, even if one were in a state of pure order---that will change/transform into something different.

Having freedom anchored to order, limits freedom. 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying - and that our ability to assimilate and respond to the seemingly chaotic events is key.  In stressing order as the road to freedom I am actually looking at how ordering our lives liberates us to be spiritually free, just as a great warrior lives an impeccable life according to a code of honour and faces eternity with a noble countenance.

 

 

[Nungali]

Its just pop culture , Man .   Chaos is cool  . Chaos Magick  .... Chaos theory  ...... fractals Man ! 

And as in most things pop , people usually have no idea .... or forgot .

 

" Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary scientific theory and branch of mathematics focused on underlying patterns and deterministic laws highly sensitive to initial conditions in dynamical systems that were thought to have completely random states of disorder and irregularities"

 

So there !  

 

Disorder seems to come about by humans imposing 'order' on what was previously deemed 'disorder'  by themselves .

[Bindi]

@Apech, If you achieve some external order in which to do ‘spiritual’ things, would you first seek order or chaos within? 

[zerostao]

chaos and pandemonium are two very different things, those ancient greeks and their words. 

I wasn't trying to talk past you Bindi, I was typing as your post appeared.

[Apech]

27 minutes ago, Bindi said:

@Apech, If you achieve some external order in which to do ‘spiritual’ things, would you first seek order or chaos within? 

 

I think the quick answer would be both.  In terms of 'content' such as thoughts, memories, emotions etc. I think you would always endeavour to understand - which means ordering in the sense of putting them in good relation to each other, not to suppress but to illuminate.  In terms of nature you would look to 'allow' or open to the free movement of spirit which might be called chaos in the sense that it is unlimited.

 

 

[old3bob]

one of my ideas about chaos is when locusts feed on anything and everything via destructive hordes...nothing romantic or profound sounding about that! 

[stirling]

How about this: Seeing through illusion of chaos or freedom is liberation.  

[Nungali]

 

 

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

one of my ideas about chaos is when locusts feed on anything and everything via destructive hordes...nothing romantic or profound sounding about that! 

 

No, not about  THAT , but other aspect of  'swarm behaviour'  is a good example of  'order in chaos ' , or 'patterns in randomness' ;

 

 

 

.. and now they are developing mathematical  models of it  for   strategies to help deal with locus swarms .

 

 

.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Nungali

[old3bob]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

No, not about  THAT , but other aspect of  'swarm behaviour'  is a good example of  'order in chaos ' , or 'patterns in randomness' ;

 

 

 

.. and now they are developing mathematical  models of it  for   strategies to help deal with locus swarms .

 

 

.

 

I'd say evolution per laws has patterns and devolution per breaking laws also has patterns,  

as we know live spelled ass backwards is evil.

Edited February 22, 2022 by old3bob

[Apech]

On 2/19/2022 at 12:04 AM, Taomeow said:

 

I was indeed gone, but the order which is acceptable to me has been restored, so I'm back.  

 

 

According to Laozi:

“A leader is best when people barely know he exists. Not so good when people love him. Worse when they fear him.  The worst -- when they despise him. 

But of a good leader who talks little, when his work is done and his aim fulfilled, people will say: ‘We did it ourselves." 

 

 

 

I've been pondering this quote for a day or two - and while at first it seems benign to have a leader who leads invisibly so to speak - this could also be a definition of a hidden elite, like for instance the deep state or the military industrial complex.  We don't always know that they explicitly exist and very often don't know what they are up to - but they rule our lives ... and indeed when their work is done we think we did it ourselves.

 

I am not saying all elites are evil by the way - or even a bad thing - I have actually come to the conclusion that they are inevitable.  I think they are often 'natural' as they are self selecting depending on the sources of power in society.

 

 

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, Apech said:

I've been pondering this quote for a day or two - and while at first it seems benign to have a leader who leads invisibly so to speak - this could also be a definition of a hidden elite, like for instance the deep state or the military industrial complex.  We don't always know that they explicitly exist and very often don't know what they are up to - but they rule our lives ... and indeed when their work is done we think we did it ourselves.

Its interesting to me because the DDJ quote, in the way that I understand it - is not about people ‘out there’ - but the people ‘inside’. 
 

Meaning that the people are aspects of mind. The various internal patterns and personalities.

 

So to translate what you mentioned above into this internal way of seeing it produces an interesting result.

 

Who is the hidden elite ruling your mind? 
 

We don’t always know that we’re being led by a hidden aspect of ourselves. 
 

We may feel free to do what we want - but what we want is often controlled by a hidden elite - one that is ruling us from the inside.

 

From the Daoist perspective order is a critical aspect to growth. 
 

It’s something that doesn’t sit well in the west. But if you saw the regimented nature of spiritual training in Asia, it’s pretty clear to see that order is what underpins everything.

 

This is both on the macro and micro scale.

 

Take a concept like Sung for example.

 

Most people think of Sung as relaxation - which is in essence a release of any order within. The release of tension, contraction or stiffness that is holding the body in a certain way.

 

But that’s wrong. Complete relaxation will not produce growth or change. It’ll just put you to sleep.

 

The correct way to Sung is to actively release against a counter-balance of structure, of inner order. That’s why we have standing postures - our posture must be perfectly ordered - we release against this posture, never letting the structure go. 
 

If you get Sung right, rather than the floppy relaxation we’re familiar with, we get instead a kind of full buoyancy that fills and expands from the inside out.

 

Order is key.

[old3bob]

a lot of folks would deny the external factors of planetary, solar and lunar influences on their individual and group lives,  yet we could ask ourselves when and how much such influences may become controlling? 

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I've been pondering this quote for a day or two - and while at first it seems benign to have a leader who leads invisibly so to speak - this could also be a definition of a hidden elite, like for instance the deep state or the military industrial complex.  We don't always know that they explicitly exist and very often don't know what they are up to - but they rule our lives ... and indeed when their work is done we think we did it ourselves.

 

I am not saying all elites are evil by the way - or even a bad thing - I have actually come to the conclusion that they are inevitable.  I think they are often 'natural' as they are self selecting depending on the sources of power in society.

 

 

 

You are absolutely correct -- and I do believe that the existence of "The Unknown Fathers" (the name the ruling elites go by in one of my favorite sci-fi novels) can be the other side of that tricky coin.  Anything can be flipped against the people and for the rulers if they are in opposition, if they flip that coin toward winning for themselves, against the people.  But with Laozi, it's the context that matters.  Outside his whole doctrine aimed at enlightening the ruler specifically, toward convincing him to serve the people rather than himself, it can be flipped to mean what the self-serving rulers pick and choose for it to mean. 

 

His context is the Great Mother, tao, and the idea is to emulate her, to rule the way she rules.  Tao keeps her reign hidden, under wraps, but she is benevolent to her children by default, it's her nature ("virtue"), and most definitely her rule is not self-serving at their expense, not "the hidden hand" looking to rob them and enrich herself.  On a smaller level of the fractal but replicating its pattern, that's how a true family is ruled -- parents help children learn to "do it all themselves" without either jumping hoops trying to please or punishing -- they simply create a pattern which children are able to replicate, internalize and benefit from.  Ditto a tribe ruled by such motherly benevolent figure, who establishes the same pattern -- derived from the family that derives it from the Great Mother, tao. 

 

Of course this pattern breaks down when parents starts using children toward their own goals, when the head of the family, the ruler of the tribe, the ruler of the nation, the ruler of the empire, and ultimately of the world abandon the Great Mother and flip into The Great Pestilence.  That's where the invisible guiding force can show its potential to be the opposite of "the best" and become "the worst."  In fact, all Laozi's hierarchy presently stands on its head because of what happened to our world -- today the best rulers are the ones who are despised, and therefore their self-serving moves can be ignored by the ruled.  While the worst are "The Unknown Fathers" -- when the rulers are in self-serving opposition to the people, when their rule and the order they install is detrimental, devastating, in need of fighting against but no one can fight it because no one knows its true source -- that's the worst.  

Edited February 22, 2022 by Taomeow

[old3bob]

17 hours ago, stirling said:

How about this: Seeing through illusion of chaos or freedom is liberation.  

 

Hey Dude, my take is unlike that of some schools of Buddhism or of Hinduism.  For instance I'd say there is no illusion only misperception or limited perception,  as for freedom (or liberation) it is a fact of correct perception.

 

Btw, my take is that there is no disconnect between "the One" in Daoism and "the ten thousand" or between Tao and the One, (aka first born)  thus the only disconnect that  exists is misperception or limited perception which does not see the connections.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by old3bob

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

Its interesting to me because the DDJ quote, in the way that I understand it - is not about people ‘out there’ - but the people ‘inside’. 
 

Meaning that the people are aspects of mind. The various internal patterns and personalities.

 

So to translate what you mentioned above into this internal way of seeing it produces an interesting result.

 

Who is the hidden elite ruling your mind? 
 

We don’t always know that we’re being led by a hidden aspect of ourselves. 
 

We may feel free to do what we want - but what we want is often controlled by a hidden elite - one that is ruling us from the inside.

 

That is one of the few times I have heard something like this  from elsewhere  ( other than me )   ... and that is rather refreshing .

 

Its part of the whole  central teaching of the group I was in  ( a 'magical Order'       ) -  a  way to regulate your   ' hidden aspects'   so as to create STRUCTURE and ORDER within your psyche .   The model was based on the  constitution of the group concerning its degrees or levels . So that means  one personally experiences  these levels within the outer  fraternal hierarchy , and studies the model then applies it to the 'internal psychic landscape ' .    

 

A reason I find it  a refreshing concept to read  elsewhere  (  ie. here  ) is that people in the group seemed to either disagree  with me or just ignore it as part of my weirdness  when I presented a talk on the subject .   Even the 'Chief' approached me later asked me if I really believed and thought that our constitution was supposed to be a model for our personal behaviour and internal organisation ... ?

 

I was a bit stunned  as my talk was fully referenced to  our constitution  and I was referring to  point 1   !   ;

 

"

1. This is the Constitution and Government of our Holy Order; by the study of its Balance you may yourself come to apprehension of how to rule your own life. For, in True Things, all are but images one of another; man is but a map of the universe, and Society is but the same on a larger scale.

"

 

 

-  An unordered , random , 'run away train  '   psychic  consciousness ?     No thanks !  .

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

From the Daoist perspective order is a critical aspect to growth. 
 

It’s something that doesn’t sit well in the west. But if you saw the regimented nature of spiritual training in Asia, it’s pretty clear to see that order is what underpins everything.

 

This is both on the macro and micro scale.

 

Take a concept like Sung for example.

 

Most people think of Sung as relaxation - which is in essence a release of any order within. The release of tension, contraction or stiffness that is holding the body in a certain way.

 

But that’s wrong. Complete relaxation will not produce growth or change. It’ll just put you to sleep.

 

The correct way to Sung is to actively release against a counter-balance of structure, of inner order. That’s why we have standing postures - our posture must be perfectly ordered - we release against this posture, never letting the structure go. 
 

If you get Sung right, rather than the floppy relaxation we’re familiar with, we get instead a kind of full buoyancy that fills and expands from the inside out.

 

Order is key.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Nungali

[stirling]

The Buddhist schools I have worked in would say that "this" that we are looking at has always ALREADY been enlightened/non-dual, and it is only our "misperception or limited perception" that believes in and constructs its duality. The illusion/delusion is that anything but "one" exists. I think what you are saying agrees with that, as do I.

 

In my experience the duality/non-duality is easy to demonstrate given shared personal space, curiosity and experimentation.

 

I also agree that there is no disconnect between the way different traditions understand (through prajna/Wisdom what "the One"/"not two"/Mind is, only a difference in the perspective with which they are presented. 

 

Bows.

[Zorro Dantes]

So if order is key and discipline is in good tastes perhaps choice is what’s free for dinner. Get you an ugly burger with the works should you like the chaos

Edited February 22, 2022 by Zorro Dantes

[Feral]

I'm really enjoying reading this thread because it's a subject I've been thinking about a lot lately. More from a nature standpoint, but I believe it applies in humanistic levels as well. So, just some musings.

 

I was setting on the beach this morning watching the surf roll in and out. Of course, there’s an undeniable pattern of order in the constancy of that cycle. The tide goes out then comes back in. The laws of nature at work. But it’s a little imperfect too, allowing just enough variation for a bit of chaos to present opportunities for something more unpredictable to happen. Sometimes it’s stormy or silty or uncommonly calm, but there’s always an overarching consistency that is reliable. Yet, I believe that life and growth and evolution are dependent on momentary chaotic events in order to keep things from becoming inert. What it does in the natural world is like honing the blade of survival to keep things in a sharper, more dynamic state. Pushing the boundaries without breaking them.

 

A world in which chaos is the rule would be uninhabitable. All life seems to rely on a somewhat predictable rhythm, in order to establish an efficient mode of interaction and survival. It’s like having a beat to dance too. So, there’s no freedom in chaos, you would spend your whole time trying to prepare for the next non-stop, unpredictable event.

 

Absolute order on the other hand, might be a slower death, one of stagnation and dull complacency. Not a lot of freedom there either. So, and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m just a babe in the woods where Taoist thought is concerned. But, like most things, aren’t the two are entirely interdependent? I guess that’s a fairly dualistic way of seeing things and from a physical standpoint, makes sense to me.

 

The other way of looking at it is that these two things are simply a construct of the human mind and they are no more than blips of high and low frequency on our own bandwidth. Maybe we’re just making up words to match the tune. What I may think is chaos on my own human level, might seem perfectly in order to someone else’s eye.

 

At any rate, it was a lovely day at the beach. I go there to watch the sunset too and each evening it sets just a tiny bit further north. It’s a comforting thought to know that last year, and many thousands of years before that, it dropped into the ocean at precisely the exact same spot and time as it will today. That’s order. Fortunately, there might be a few clouds to, you know…shake thing up

Edited February 23, 2022 by Feral
Question mark needed

[Bindi]

On 21/2/2022 at 3:21 AM, Apech said:

 

“To be a master of metaphor is a sign of genius.” ~ Aristotle 

[Bindi]

“You open the gates of the soul to let the dark flood of chaos flow into your order and meaning. If you marry the ordered [Elijah] to the chaos [Salome] you produce the divine child, the supreme meaning beyond meaning and meaninglessness.” (C.G. Jung, “The Red Book”, 2009: 139)