What exactly is stored in the LDT?

[Cleansox]

35 minutes ago, Indiken said:

Hello,

 

how much Jing is spent living 5 years in Nazi concentration camp ?

Unless you know something noone else is aware of, "is" doesn't apply. "Was" might be better. 

 

The answer would be "five deciliter", on average. 

[Indiken]

1 hour ago, Cleansox said:

The answer would be "five deciliter", on average. 

 

Was this a joke ?

 

I see that @freeform had fun with this comment.

 

[Cleansox]

4 hours ago, Indiken said:

 

Was this a joke ?

 

@freeform

There is no other way to answer that question. 

[rainbowvein]

7 hours ago, Indiken said:

Hello,

 

how much Jing is spent living 5 years in Nazi concentration camp ?

 

It's all too easy to let your surroundings weigh your spirit down. You may become sick and emaciated from malnourishment or mistreatment. And your jing may suffer. But your shen can still soar.

 

"We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms -- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."

~Viktor Frankl, Holocaust survivor

[natural]

3 minutes ago, rainbowvein said:

 

It's all too easy to let your surroundings weigh your spirit down. You may become sick and emaciated from malnourishment or mistreatment. And your jing may suffer. But your shen can still soar.

 

"We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms -- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."

~Viktor Frankl, Holocaust survivor

 

This bears repeating as well as careful consideration.

[natural]

12 minutes ago, rainbowvein said:

And Saints of all gender's races and beliefs wander amongst us!

Praise your personal higher power that they do!

"We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms -- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."

~Viktor Frankl, Holocaust survivor

 

[Indiken]

18 minutes ago, rainbowvein said:

 

It's all too easy to let your surroundings weigh your spirit down. You may become sick and emaciated from malnourishment or mistreatment. And your jing may suffer. But your shen can still soar.

 

How can seriously malnutritioned, bullied, beaten, disgraced people for 5+ years live longer than my countries average life span, when merely having sex or anger reduces Jing ?

 

[小梦想]

1 hour ago, Indiken said:

 

How can seriously malnutritioned, bullied, beaten, disgraced people for 5+ years live longer than my countries average life span, when merely having sex or anger reduces Jing ?

 

 

Jing isn't a thing or a substance, not one thing or substance anyway. If you think of jing as an indication of your current health and homeostasis then it becomes easier to understand. The bodies ability to perform the functions it needs to perform.

 

Sex and anger greatly affect the kidneys and liver respectively, which in a very big way throws the body out of balance (both affect the homeostasis of the blood in a big way), which reduces your jing. It's not like a liquid of a set quantity that is lost, but a reduction in the bodies homeostasis, resulting it in functioning at a less optimal state, less effective at performing the basic functions that need performing. Think of internal heat building up, phlegm build up, reduction in blood flow, less oxygen to cells, more toxicity build up in cells, intra/extracellular fluid concentrations being out of whack. Different organs that affect the function of another as in the 5 element theory which results in an overall less efficient body because everything in the body affects everything else. Too much of this or too little of that has a systemwide effect.

 

In the case of the holocaust survivors, we can see the huge impact mental stability, being positive and kind has on the homeostasis of the body. During the malnourishment, jing levels would have been fairly low, but because of the way some people can remain positive, the effects don't linger in them. They recover and due to their exceptional ability to be positive, health quickly returns to them.

 

There is more and more evidence to support how our thinking affects gene activation, which has a huge impact on the homeostasis of the body and in turn overall health. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by 小梦想

[Indiken]

51 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

Jing isn't a thing or a substance, not one thing or substance anyway. If you think of jing as an indication of your current health and homeostasis then it becomes easier to understand. The bodies ability to perform the functions it needs to perform. Sex and anger greatly affect the kidneys and liver respectively, which in a very big way throws the body out of balance (both affect the homeostasis of the blood in a big way), which reduces your jing. It's not like a liquid of a set quantity that is lost, but a reduction in the bodies homeostasis, resulting it in functioning at a less optimal state, less effective at performing the basic functions that need performing. Think of internal heat building up, phlegm build up, reduction in blood flow, less oxygen to cells, more toxicity build up in cells, intra/extracellular fluid concentrations being out of whack. Different organs that affect the function of another as in the 5 element theory which results in an overall less efficient body because everything in the body affects everything else. Too much of this or too little of that has a systemwide effect.

 

So sex or anger by definition throws body out of balance ? 

 

I am not sure, it seems to me, that anger and sex is a way to keep the body in balance.

 

51 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

In the case of the holocaust survivors, we can see the huge impact mental stability, being positive and kind has on the homeostasis of the body. During the malnourishment, jing levels would have been fairly low, but because of the way some people can remain positive, the effects don't linger in them. They recover and due to their exceptional ability to be positive, health quickly returns to them.

 

So, why people age, if their health returns to them ?

 

EDIT:

 

It is funny, when I conclude that "anger is a way to keep the body in balance", I get wave of feeling of heat in the muscles of shoulders and lower back.

 

It is like I need only to reach a conclusion with thinking, then the Qi moves accordingly to suit me. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Indiken

[Cleansox]

7 hours ago, Indiken said:

 

I am not sure, it seems to me, that anger and sex is a way to keep the body in balance.

With anger, yes and no. 

 

Anger is what happens when the mind prepare us to remove obstacles, by mobilizing energy. 

 

Having obstacles (being obstructed in life) is unbalancing, unfortunately overusing anger unbalance us in the other direction. 

[Lukks]

On 23/02/2022 at 9:29 PM, freeform said:

 

Lower back pain… pain in the knees… tinnitus. All there.

 

I believe it happens because it's linked to Jing depletion so it directly affects the kidneys which are related to the ears, just trying to make sense on all of this 

 

 

 

 

On 23/02/2022 at 10:57 PM, Shadow_self said:

 

Your explanation is so much better than mine  Thank you.

 

On a personal note....Having a SO in a different timezone and adjusting clocks to late nights definately does take its toll...Thankfully its not permanent. I imagine a decade or so of  night shift work could really mess it up

Yep, when the pandemy started(2020), my college started Google Meet classes and so I didn't have the need to wake up early, so I literally changed my routine to being awake until 5 A.M and sleeping until 1 P.M, it really messed with me, I went more than a year in this routine, just a few months ago I realized the damage and started looking for help, otherwise I probably would still be waking up at 1 P.M, daoist knowledge and @freeform who I asked some questions saved me lol

 

 

 

 

19 hours ago, freeform said:

Ah yeah - that’s tough. But some things are worth it

 

Wouldn't worry too much. You should see how much Jing is used for pregnancy and breast feeding! Still a worthwhile sacrifice for most.

Hmm interesting, I read somewhere that when the woman gets pregnant it actually gives her more longevity, but I don't remember where I read it and why it would do so, If I find it I bring it to discussion.

 

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I practiced it for several years and, while I found the cold showers and baths incredibly invigorating and great for building a quality of mental toughness, I never found them particularly healthful.

 

In the end I quit after I developed a debilitating skin disorder on my hand. I have no proof that it was caused by the cold exposure, but it also disappeared within a few months of quitting.

 

The breathing exercises are great for improving the quality of lungs. I think they may have been life-saving at one point for me when I had covid in Feb 2020. My lungs felt like they were closing up, and the breathing exercises felt like the next best thing to a ventilator (at that point there were no official cases in the UK).

 

 

Yes, I did cold showers for some time because I started watching all of those ''cold showers benefits'' videos on youtube and I joined the ''HYPE'', luckly daoist knowledge saved me... again

 

About the breathing, that's very interesting, I heard a guy once saying that he practiced breath retention techniques while in the hospital with Covid and he got a lot better, because when you retain the breath it forces your lungs to open.

 

[小梦想]

9 hours ago, Indiken said:

o sex or anger by definition throws body out of balance ?

Anger is effectively choosing fight in the fight or flight response, meaning the sympathetic nervous system takes over. Being angry constantly is the same as constantly being stressed, even if the mechanism and eventual damage isn't exactly the same. 

 

Sex has a draining effect on the body passively. But here we more mean excessive sex, too much of a good thing right. Your body will prioritize reproduction above most other things, meaning, excessive sexual habits will have your body redirecting vital resources to replenishing lost reproductive fluids constantly. You are effectively limiting the resources for the rest of your body. It takes about 3 days for normal homeostasis to be restored.

 

Cold is extremely damaging to the body, think of it terms of viscosity and rate of reaction. What happens to the fat in a frying pan when it cools down, what happens to most things when they cool down, chemical reactions slow down as temperature goes does, blood becomes thicker and flows less readily. Your body is just a extremely complicated chain of chemical reactions. Chemical reactions in exposed cells slow down, localized blood stasis or a reduction in blood flow follow which then results in homeostasis being impacted. Constantly exposing yourself to cold can have short term health benefits if done correctly, but long term, especially when done incorrectly can have a severe impact on overall homeostasis and general health. 

 

Most things, even those perceived as being healthy, if done too much, can drastically affect overall health negatively. Think of exercising without rest days. It takes time for your body to repair, replenish and restore normal function. Sweating even though healthy and beneficial, can be extremely draining and taxing on the blood if it's constant. Luckily, the body does compensate for many things by becoming more efficient, but there are limits and considerations for most things and does require some basic knowledge to get right. Everything must be done in balance.

Edited February 25, 2022 by 小梦想

[Indiken]

@小梦想 , you say that: 

 

13 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

Jing isn't a thing or a substance, not one thing or substance anyway. If you think of jing as an indication of your current health and homeostasis then it becomes easier to understand. The bodies ability to perform the functions it needs to perform.

 

When a person by name Giovanni Macioca in a book called "The Foundations of Chinese Medicine"(2015) in page 47, clearly defines "Essence" or "Jing" as a "Vital Substance".

 

So, I see 4 possibilities here:

1. You are lying
2. Giovanni Macioca is lying
3. I misunderstand
4. You and Giovanni Macioca are speaking about different things using the same words

 

Could you clarify ?

Edited February 25, 2022 by Indiken

[Lairg]

There are many frequency bands in the life force that enters the human.   The frequency bands can form stable resonances in particular sub-systems of the human.  This can be thought of as storage.

 

Being part of the life force, there is intelligence implicit in each stable resonance.  It is possible for the human to form constructive or destructive relationships with the resonant intelligences.  Training may be either.

 

 

 

 

[小梦想]

39 minutes ago, Indiken said:

Could you clarify ?

 

A lot of TCM is metaphors, using abstract language to convey phenomena not understood scientifically thousands of years ago. Think of the curses for opening pharaohs tombs that turned out to be fungal spores. Or areas of the devil that kill anyone who goes there that show levels of toxic underground gasses. There are easier ways to describe some tcm theories and terms and what is the route that I have taken.

Most people define Jing as a vital substance because that is their understanding of it and in most cases, they are just parroting theory they themselves were taught (they don't actually understand it well enough to explain it in any way other than parroting). My understanding is based on a degree in tcm (including all the normal western medicine courses) and studying with masters such as Master Jiang, Master Wang, Master Wu, Master Cheng and Master Zhou. I am a doctor myself and a long term student of masters who all have very demonstrable levels of qi. I myself can demonstrate my qi levels to any non believer in the same way these masters can.

 

I have assisted in the treatment and teaching of thousands of patients and students over the years. My understanding and chosen way to explain comes from personal experience and cultivation to a degree that very few western teachers and authors can compete with. But if you prefer the explanation that jing is some magical substance and the dantian is some magical reactor outside the bounds of regular bodily functions then you are welcome to it. We are talking about the same thing, I just use easier to understand terms to explain them and don't consider them magical or outside the bounds of normal bodily function and reactions.

You can choose the scholarly explanation if you wish, but it's not helpful for both patients and students in my experience. I explain these things in a way that people know how to affect them, how it affects them and how they can improve their chances of being successful in neidan/neigong and their overall health in general.

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by 小梦想

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Indiken said:

clearly defines "Essence" or "Jing" as a "Vital Substance"

Jing is not a physical substance.
 

You could call it an ‘energetic substance’ - but that’s not quite right either… (though not completely wrong).

 

The reason for the confusion is that we’re dealing with subtle stuff here.

 

For instance you could say light is a substance… well there are photons - and they’re discreet particles, so that’s kinda right. But light is also an electromagnetic vibration with no substance… both are ‘right’.

 

Daoists were not looking to analyse things to get to the ‘truth’ of something in the way that science aims to - it’s a lot more practical than that. It doesn’t matter how you describe light - what matters is it’s utility. In this way the Daoist arts are more like engineering… it doesn’t matter what the ‘truth’ about light is - you can still use it’s properties to create televisions.

 

15 hours ago, Indiken said:

How can seriously malnutritioned, bullied, beaten, disgraced people for 5+ years live longer than my countries average life span, when merely having sex or anger reduces Jing ?

 

That’s known as ‘Survivorship bias’ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

 

Most people that experienced concentration camps died.
 

So when you say they have a longer lifespan, you’re disregarding the fact that the vast majority - millions of people - died as a result of this sort of treatment.

 

The ones that didn’t are extraordinary people.

Edited February 25, 2022 by freeform

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Indiken said:

@小梦想 , you say that: 

 

 

When a person by name Giovanni Macioca in a book called "The Foundations of Chinese Medicine"(2015) in page 47, clearly defines "Essence" or "Jing" as a "Vital Substance".

 

So, I see 4 possibilities here:

1. You are lying
2. Giovanni Macioca is lying
3. I misunderstand
4. You and Giovanni Macioca are speaking about different things using the same words

 

Could you clarify ?

FYI accusing someone of lying to you when he’s given time to explain to you is an easy way for most people to lose interest in helping you understand. 

[Indiken]

13 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

FYI accusing someone of lying to you when he’s given time to explain to you is an easy way for most people to lose interest in helping you understand. 

 

Why ?

 

EDIT:

 

I mean, how should I say ? You are misunderstanding, You are delusional, You are saying not truth. 

 

How to say in sweet terms, that person is wrong ?

 

If two persons opinions differ, what does that mean - That there are multiple truths ? That one person knows the truth and other does not ?

Edited February 25, 2022 by Indiken

[Earl Grey]

11 minutes ago, Indiken said:

Why ?

 

Whether or not English is your first language, would you like it if someone accused you of being a liar?

 

11 minutes ago, Indiken said:

I mean, how should I say ?

 

Let's go over your suggestions and why you should not use these:

 

12 minutes ago, Indiken said:

You are misunderstanding,

 

This sounds like you're telling someone he's stupid.

 

12 minutes ago, Indiken said:

You are delusiona

 

This is just an insult.

 

12 minutes ago, Indiken said:

You are saying not truth. 

 

This sounds like you're the authority and the other person is inferior to you.

 

13 minutes ago, Indiken said:

If two persons opinions differ

 

Except in many situations, it's not a difference of opinions, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of facts. You could just as easily have contacted the author and if you don't like the explanation given to you by Rudi, why bother asking for someone to explain to you when you reject the answer given to you? This doesn't sound like you want to know, it sounds more like you already have settled on your opinion and want someone else to confirm it for you.

 

14 minutes ago, Indiken said:

 That there are multiple truths ?

 

No, just one person insists on being louder and relies on others to echo what he says that's wrong--some people still insist that Elvis is alive, and he's hanging out with Michael Jackson, Kobe Bryant, Andy Kaufman, and Tupac Shakur. Neither opinion or multiple truths--just some people whose reality extends as far as the tip of their nose.

 

15 minutes ago, Indiken said:

That one person knows the truth and other does not ?

 

"It's not about what we don't know that will harm us, it's whatever we think is true that just isn't so that will." - Mark Twain

 

 

[小梦想]

There is no point to argue. I didn't even read the word lying, in my head it was replaced with misunderstanding. Which of you is misunderstanding.

I just stated my experience and background so that he knows where my explanation comes from. There is so little understanding about Daoist terms and what they actually mean because people always quote the ancient scripts and never get to the point where cultivation passes what they studied. A point where they can look back on it and go, oh, that what that is referring to. Neidan theory isn't instructions, it's metaphors explaining a process and I think we all know how creative people can get when using metaphors and similes to explain something. Pick any poem. 

I think some people like that because it makes them feel important or they are perfectionists or that's just their personality type. At university many students tried so hard to use the correct medical/anatomical/body spacing terms because they are doctors and should sound like doctors. I have never had that desire, I use simple words, explain things in simple ways. My worth as a doctor isn't about trying to sound clever, sound like or even look like a doctor, it's from being successful in treating my patients.

My worth as a teacher isn't about creating a persona of wearing the right clothes and posting selfies of myself meditating every day or explaining neidan in the normal terms that are confusing or going on about theory for hours so I sound impressive, it's about students making progress. In that progress, when they read the theory, it will be crystal clear how simple things actually are. Until they reach the required milestones, the theory is just random words that in truth have no meaning.

 

In reality, until you start using your qi, needing to replenish it, understanding the effects it has on your body when you are drained or tired, knowing which health situations results in slower cultivation, how to refine lower quality qi into higher quality qi etc. it's just guessing really. They don't really have any direct experience with the effects and mechanisms at hand so how could they possibly do anything other than parrot the same theory they read in books.

 

 

[Indiken]

13 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Whether or not English is your first language, would you like it if someone accused you of being a liar?

 

I remember in my childhood when a person selling video games accused me of lying. I was lying. That is the only memory of me accused of lying that I can remember at this moment. It is painful to remember and it was painful to experience this accusation. But the person was right.

 

If I used the concept of "you are wrong", maybe that would be better if I used the concept of "you are lying".

 

13 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Except in many situations, it's not a difference of opinions, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of facts. You could just as easily have contacted the author and if you don't like the explanation given to you by Rudi, why bother asking for someone to explain to you when you reject the answer given to you?

 

I know two different statements which logically contradict one another, so I ask for clarification, why it is so. I do not understand where is the "rejection" here.

 

[awaken]

搬運法裡面關於下丹田的概念，完全是一種誤導，真正的丹田並非如此。

 

丹道裡面真正的丹，根據劉一明的定義，小還丹和大還丹。

 

小還丹指的是烏肝兔髓黍米的低層次光球，主要是以烏肝為主。

 

大還丹指的是金丹演化過程的各種光球，這屬於陽生二階段以上的程度，但是這裡練到陽生二階段以上的人很少，目前為止，這裏好像只有兩個人跟我說他有練到這裡，推估超過九成以上的人，都不知道什麼是大還丹。

 

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Indiken said:

 

I remember in my childhood when a person selling video games accused me of lying. I was lying. That is the only memory of me accused of lying that I can remember at this moment. It is painful to remember and it was painful to experience this accusation. But the person was right.

 

Not the same thing.

 

1 hour ago, Indiken said:

I know two different statements which logically contradict one another, so I ask for clarification, why it is so. I do not understand where is the "rejection" here.

 

Less about logic and more about your approach: if you ask for help from someone, then it doesn't make sense to you, you call him a liar. This is being ungrateful and insulting them.

 

Anyway, he said he doesn't care, but if this is how you approach people, don't be surprised if you don't get positive results or interactions with them without reflecting on yourself. The feedback is ultimately for your own good rather than what you perceive now as an attack on you... which bizarrely ignores that your choice of words would normally be considered an attack on him for calling him a liar.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Earl Grey
concision

[freeform]

57 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Less about logic and more about your approach

Just be polite and respectful.

 

Its as simple as that.

 

Sometimes the situation calls for something else - but it’s always best to have respect and kindness as the fundamental ground upon which you start any interaction.

 

1 hour ago, Indiken said:

I know two different statements which logically contradict one another

People aren’t calculators - so we must interact with them as people not as machines.
 

Reality is also not a calculator - life is filled with contradiction and paradox…

 

Light is both substance and insubstantial - a clear, fundamental contradiction - it doesn’t mean that one option is wrong and the other is correct. It just means things are a little more complicated than the logical mind can comprehend.

 

The whole field of quantum mechanics arose out of the contradiction that light is both a particle and a wave.

[Cleansox]

5 hours ago, Indiken said:

Giovanni Macioca in a book called "The Foundations of Chinese Medicine"(2015) in page 47, clearly defines "Essence" or "Jing" as a "Vital Substance".

 

In the context of a western physiological discussion:

Saying that jing is not a substance but a metaphore for a bunch of healthy functions would not require any amount of evidence. 

 

Saying that jing is a substance would, on the other hand, require that one can hand over said substance or at least proof that someone has performed some tests on said substance.