Death and the horse it rode in on

[manitou]

I'd be interested to listen to people's concept of death.  Not what it says in the Upanishads, or the Sutras, or the Bible, or what Buddha said.  I found myself thinking deeply about this on my morning walk.

 

in my own understanding, it is all Mind.  I was brought up Christian, to believe in a heaven.  That has been discounted with my own spiritual maturity.  But as humans, I think it is a natural tendency to look for some sort of comfort as death approaches, or particularly when a loved one leaves us.  I was thinking about my beloved Joe this morning, who died 3 years ago.

 

When Joe was alive, we had a sort of agreement about death.  We had in our minds a beautiful grassy knoll (no book repository) next to a stream.  The deceased one of us had a picnic blanket spread out under a tree, waiting for the other to arrive.  And, of course, a great lunch.  My horse and our favorite deceased pets were all there, and it was there that we would all meet up again.  It was very comforting to think in these terms, as is the concept of a heaven where everything will be okay ad infinitum.  And when I was particularly sad after his passing, the very human part of my mind would go directly to that place.  The place of comfort.  A way to get through the pain.

 

But we believe as our minds would have us believe due to our conditioning.  I wondered this morning if 'carrying' a picture like this would preclude merger with the infinite.  If my mind, because it was still so attached to a Particular Personality (Joe) that this would necessitate another washing cycle through life that could have been avoided.  In other words, if I am still clinging to a personality, even a deceased one, that my mindset is not one of Oneness.  That would still be distinction.  If, on the other hand, I carried the notion in my mind of all of life being One, that the necessity for recycling would be unnecessary.  And along with that notion comes the realization that Joe is part of the infinite and is Here Now, as linear time is merely a consequence of planetary rotation, a field in which our thoughts manifest into lives.

 

I've read plenty of books about post-death experiences.  Most center around loved ones, if I'm not mistaken.  I dont know - has anyone who has truly merged with the Dao, with nothingness, ever come back to write about it?  Would they need to? Certainly not in a particular personality.  But within the Collective, the merged Oneness of us all - the knowledge must certainly be there.  The knowledge that if we've removed enough of our conditioning we will get to experience the alignment, the merger.

 

Love is Impersonal.  And maybe that's what Don Juan Mateus meant when he would tell Carlos Castaneda '"Death is your Advisor"  I've never quite understood that, and because I can't quite get my head around it, the riddle has remained with me for years.  On one hand, he would say that Death was standing there on your right hand side.  Advising?

 

What comes to mind is something Shirley Maclaine said in her metaphysical book "Out on a Limb", many years ago.  She had a silver cord experience out in space wherein she met Death and saw through it.  Her point thereafter was "if you lose your fear of death, what is there to fear?"

I agree with her on that.  It seems that Death underlies any fear we can come up with; it seems that all concepts are based on either love or fear.

Fear of death, ultimately.

 

I'd love to hear about other Bums' personal feelings on that.  What you've experienced, what you've come away with.  Your level of acceptance of your ultimate demise.

 

 

[natural]

Edited

Edited February 23, 2022 by natural
clarity

[old3bob]

if we are strongly attached to an identity of ourselves that will pass in time and space then that passage will be painful, but if our identity is with our deeper Spirit Self which sees death itself die, then any form of demise is that of  limited human identities and not of Spirit.   I'd also say that Love/Law has  both personal and impersonal aspects.

[helpfuldemon]

I've thought a lot about this and after watching my dreams be of an order that I did not create, I think that there is another place we connect to that we go when we sleep.  I see death as the possibility of two places; one is that there is nothing, we simply die and vanish and it is the end.  The other is that we enter a dream, and when the dream ends, we fall asleep until the next one.

[manitou]

If we manifest our life, why do we not manifest our death?

[old3bob]

4 minutes ago, manitou said:

If we manifest our life, why do we not manifest our death?

 

not sure of your meaning...but i'd say "normal" life and death are tied together at the hip, while the Life of Spirit knows no death.

[liminal_luke]

On 2/23/2022 at 10:19 AM, manitou said:

 I wondered this morning if 'carrying' a picture like this would preclude merger with the infinite.  

 

 

I don't think so.  This thread is way above my pay grade, but I'll share my hunch: I believe people remain very specific, very individual, even as they merge with the infinite.  I believe that our relationships also retain that specificity.  You and Joe could both be totally merged with the Tao and, paradoxically, be together as two polarized people having a picnic under a giant tree.  Why not?  The seeming dichotomy between the finite and the infinite, the separate and the merged, is just that -- seeming.  We are drop and ocean, separate and merged, yin and yang, and neither perspective represents absolute truth.  Perhaps the trick is to learn how to navigate between the poles gracefully.

 

To see a world in a grain of sand and heaven in a wild flower.  Hold infinity in the palm of your hand and eternity in an hour.

 

--William Blake

Edited February 25, 2022 by liminal_luke

[Lairg]

25 minutes ago, manitou said:

If we manifest our life, why do we not manifest our death?

 

In the Castaneda writings we are told that our death intelligence stands behind our left shoulder.    When we learn how to see our death entity, we can observe whether he is watching us closely or looking afar.  If watching closely we may wish to be particularly careful in our physical life.

 

The death being is not averse to being influenced.  Kicking his shins can work in some situations.

 

The death being is the bated in-breath that returns the human to its source.  The Tzimtzum relates.

[manitou]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

not sure of your meaning...but i'd say "normal" life and death are tied together at the hip, while the Life of Spirit knows no death.

 

 

 

I often think of us, in the physical, being 99.9999999999999% space, only .00000000000001% matter.  I suppose that would be the ratio of the components of an atom to the whole of its outer perimeter.  Essentially, we're ghosts.  As I see it, there is no difference between Spirit and our physical self.  My understanding is that our physical self is manifested from the Intelligence contained within the DNA, to the molecules, to the cells and that intelligence is the very same as the Life of Spirit.  We are that Spirit experiencing a physical phase.  My understanding, also, is that we're all the same Mind, seemingly separated by different conditionings.  I think our Presence, our essence, will be the same whether we are in or out of body.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lairg said:

In the Castaneda writings we are told that our death intelligence stands behind our left shoulder.    When we learn how to see our death entity, we can observe whether he is watching us closely or looking afar.  If watching closely we may wish to be particularly careful in our physical life.

 

 

 

Please forgive my dyslexic recollection 

 

I think the Castaneda thing has many different depths.  That could be the sole extent of it, but I think it might be something different than worrying about whether death is looking or not, as applied to our immediate wellbeing.  The Sage described in the DDJ has no harm come to him.  Why is this?  Having thought much about this, I have come to the conclusion that it is because the Sage, being an enlightened being, suffers no further karma.  He is devoid of repercussion from actions, reaction, and conditions.  He is a case study in acceptance.

 

I studied the Castaneda series 3 or 4 times many years ago.  It's amazing to me how often he comes to mind.  I had no idea at the time the profundity of this series.  I learned much more from him than I originally thought I had.

 

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

don't think so.  This thread is way above my pay grade, but I'll share my hunch: I believe people remain very specific, very individual, even as they merge with the infinite. 

 

 

Liminal, absolutely nothing is above your pay grade!  IMO, you have a wisdom that is pretty unparalleled.

 

I'm of the understanding that we're not really individual at all.  We just think we are.  

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by manitou

[Lairg]

10 minutes ago, manitou said:

I think the Castaneda thing has many different depths.  That could be the sole extent of it, but I think it might be something different than worrying about whether death is looking or not,

 

The looking part is my own experience.

 

A close friend had a mother with dementia for perhaps a decade.  One day we asked her death to take her.  She was gone in a week.

 

Just coincidence I suppose.

[manitou]

8 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

The looking part is my own experience.

 

A close friend had a mother with dementia for perhaps a decade.  One day we asked her death to take her.  She was gone in a week.

 

Just coincidence I suppose.

 

 

As there are no limitations on us, why could this not be the case?  I've been involved in some pretty strange healings myself.

[old3bob]

some seem to think that following the teachings of sorcery (as often related by Castaneda) have merit or lead to spiritual growth, yet quite the opposite is the probable result from such teachings or other forms of them about sorcery.  (which is like a rocket flying on the seductive powers of darkness! ) 

Edited March 4, 2022 by old3bob

[liminal_luke]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Liminal, absolutely nothing is above your pay grade!  IMO, you have a wisdom that is pretty unparalleled.

 

I'm of the understanding that we're not really individual at all.  We just think we are.  

 

 

Thank you, manitou.    You may be right that we're not really individual at all, and just think we are.

 

My own thought is that we are both individual and not individual.  The man who stands up in the bus to allow the pregnant woman a seat both is that woman and isn't.  Of course claiming both of these things is a logical impossibility, but it's precisely the logical impossibility of it all that makes me think as I do; afterall, the dao that can be spoken is not the true dao.  When I'm awash in paradox and poetry, when I'm making not the least bit of sense, when I'm in awe of that which could not possibly be fully explained, I think I'm on the right track. 

 

One metaphor that's often used to describe the alchemical process is pregnancy and giving birth.  If we want to merge with the dao, we must become pregnant.  And we all know how that happens: through the merging of yin and yang.  At the simplest level, this merger of yin and yang might involve the alchemical coming together of substances within our own body, inner fire and inner water.  What emerges from this sexual coupling is neither purely yin nor purely yang but a more harmonious mixture of the parental elements.  As the alchemical process progresses, the process of merging yin and yang remains but the nature and quality of the yin and yang elements expands and deepens.  For instance, instead of gathering yin and yang within our own bodies we might couple the yin of the moon with the yang of the sun.  At a still deeper level, we couple the idea of the finite and the idea of the infinite, self and non-self, dualism and nondualism.  We don't embody the dao by thinking "I am an individual" or by thinking "I am not an individual."  Instead, we throw these two seemingly irreconcilable perspectives into the largest possible of cosmic cauldrons and witness the unspeakable beauty that emerges from their majestic union. 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by liminal_luke

[old3bob]

"I often think of us, in the physical, being 99.9999999999999% space, only .00000000000001% matter.  I suppose that would be the ratio of the components of an atom to the whole of its outer perimeter.  Essentially, we're ghosts.  As I see it, there is no difference between Spirit and our physical self.  My understanding is that our physical self is manifested from the Intelligence contained within the DNA, to the molecules, to the cells and that intelligence is the very same as the Life of Spirit.  We are that Spirit experiencing a physical phase.  My understanding, also, is that we're all the same Mind, seemingly separated by different conditionings.  I think our Presence, our essence, will be the same whether we are in or out of body"  By Manitou

 

1. I would use the term vehicles instead of the term "ghosts" with its connotation.  

2. I would say the physical is and must be connected to the Spiritual to be alive as we know it,  without 

     that connection (silver cord) the  physical returns or decays back to basic elements.  Thus there is

     that difference between the two.

3. I like your description of the causative chains taking place for manifestation,  (on a micro level that also 

     applies to  the macro level, or the entire cosmos beyond just the physical.  Aka the first and purest Prana 

      springing forth from Brahman.

4. I see "mind" as ultimately being one giant cosmic ball of mind stuff.   We may say,  "my mind" has this or that

    uniqueness and experience, yet our mind is still under "the mind" or part of said  giant ball of  mind stuff. 

5.  And along with that idea I believe we agree that our essence is part of "the essence", 

 6. An essence which "the mind" can not live  without a connection to...just as the body can not live in its

     complexity without its connection with Sacred Prana.

Edited February 25, 2022 by old3bob

[stirling]

Of all of the posters here, there is one with more Wisdom than most other posters can muster and that poster is YOU M. Thank you so SO much for this thoughtful thread. 

 

Life is full of transitions. They happen moment to moment. When you walk out a door, or wake up, look around a room, or turn your head, your experience of the world changes and a bardo shifts.

 

So it is with death.

 

There is a moment when your experience of reality doesn't come with an "I". This happens over and over again with everyday reality - we see ourselves looking at the ocean on a cruise ship, or driving through a tunnel, laying in the sand, staring at the sky. We are overwhelmed by a moment and the mind goes quiet. If we are fortunate, for a moment, whether we realize what it is or not, what we THINK we are blanks out. If we are lucky we realize that we aren't what we thought we are - we are not-two. 

 

Wisdom sees that there is never any self in our experiences. At the moment of death, if it hasn't already, there is a moment when wisdom can see the non--dual reality of things. and supersede becoming and the perspective of separateness again. What does that look like? I wish so deeply it was something I had seen, or could share, but that is not in the rule-set of this life. As far as I know what happens after the bardo of death can't be shared experientially, though I wish I (or anyone) could.

 

Speaking for myself, I trust COMPLETELY that the dawning of bardo in the moment of death is completely familiar to the mind of Wisdom, and that what happens next is the result of causes and conditions that are present in the mind at that moment. Complete trust that the Mind/Fabric of space/Dharmakaya/Dao LOVES you and impossible to separate from the fabric of what you are won't hurt. 

 

If I had to guess, based on visible causes and conditions, Manitou is greeted with an angora blanket of loving kindness, and the opportunity to be of benefit yet again as she has in this world. 

 

Deep Bows.

[manitou]

Stirling, I hardly know what to say.  I won't even try.  Thank you.

 

What a strange set of horses we are tasked with riding in these incarnations.  I feel like Annie Oakley much of the time.  

 

20 hours ago, stirling said:

Speaking for myself, I trust COMPLETELY that the dawning of bardo in the moment of death is completely familiar to the mind of Wisdom, and that what happens next is the result of causes and conditions that are present in the mind at that moment. Complete trust that the Mind/Fabric of space/Dharmakaya/Dao LOVES you and impossible to separate from the fabric of what you are won't hurt. 

 

 

And this goes back to my original point.  If we are carrying around a presumption of what we will see, we may be limiting ourselves.  Often one will hear about someone coming back from a near-death experience, and they will often see Jesus, or Buddha.  I've never heard yet of a Jesus person seeing a Buddha.  Personally, in my ego-brain, I would like to hold nothing in mind at the time of passing.  No-thought at all.  Perhaps if one is met with an untimely death, the overriding principle will be the general trend of their mindset in life.

[Lairg]

One of the benefits of ancient forms of Freemasonry was that the candidate was driven out of the body and "saw the sun at midnight" and met the "gods infernal" and "gods celestial".   The newly raised initiate had no fear of death, having been already taken around the solar system and into the underworld.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Lairg

[stirling]

40 minutes ago, manitou said:

If we are carrying around a presumption of what we will see, we may be limiting ourselves. 

 

...and this is what it means to hold what is real lightly, and recognize all appearances as empty.

 

There is no better way to proceed, in my estimation. 

 

[Gerard]

There is no death!

 

It's all en eternal game of FLOW and CHANGE.

 

 

[manitou]

16 hours ago, Lairg said:

One of the benefits of ancient forms of Freemasonry was that the candidate was driven out of the body and "saw the sun at midnight" and met the "gods infernal" and "gods celestial".   The newly raised initiate had no fear of death, having been already taken around the solar system and into the underworld.

 

 

 

 

And that was Shirley Maclaine's point exactly 

[manitou]

On 2/24/2022 at 4:25 PM, old3bob said:

 

not sure of your meaning...but i'd say "normal" life and death are tied together at the hip, while the Life of Spirit knows no death.

 

 

I'd say that normal life and death and spirit are all the very same thing.

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

 

I'd say that normal life and death and spirit are all the very same thing.

 

Why and how so?

  I'd say normal life and death (of woven beings) are like appearances that come and go,  while un-differentiated Spirit is and remains beyond those appearances yet gives them force to exist in time and space.  On a simpler level this can be proven if one stops breathing, with breathe and heart beat being derived from the force of Spirit.  (or pure Prana)

Edited February 27, 2022 by old3bob

[Feral]

It's entertaining to think that there is a spiritual energy that moves on or returns to source, but honestly, it's a complete mystery to me and I rather like it that way.

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Feral
typo

[Lairg]

5 hours ago, manitou said:

normal life and death and spirit are all the very same thing.

 

So the out-breath (Spirit) from The Source of All becomes dark and separate, forming intelligences and universes and occasionally humans.

 

The Source learns from the separated experience and breathes inwards the manifestations so that they become lighter until Existence ceases.  Thus there is mahapralaya until the Source wants more experience.

 

The human has a miniature cycle of cosmic out-breath and in-breath that we see as incarnation and death - with the same objective of experiential learning.

 

The out-breath and in-breath are represented in the East as yin-yang and in the Kabbalah as the Tzimtzum - with various theological misconstructions .

[Gerard]

4 hours ago, Feral said:

It's entertaining to think that there is a spiritual energy that moves on or returns to source, but honestly, it's a complete mystery to me and I rather like it that way.

 

 

 

It is but it does not work that way. It took me 8-9 years of daily committed practice to find out exactly what is the MIND/SPIRIT and its location/depth of scope...and how it operates.

 

No books, spiritual texts and religious beliefs will give you the answer. There is one however that is very explanatory but it does not follow any given system. The author connected to her higher self by sheer luck and untapped her full potential which is OURS too. 
 

Better finding out rather than reading it as self-realisation is the best method.

 

Search for Jane Roberts. She was an Earth Snake.

 

Note: about the Source. You'll know that too, if it was meant to be.