open question...

[old3bob]

There is a well known and often used preface type of prayer in Hinduism, namely:

 

"Lead me from the unreal to the real,

Lead me from darkness to light,

Lead me from death to immortality.

Om shanti shanti shanti..."

 

So and for instance one might logically ask where does the "unreal" end & the "real" begin,  and how could an unreal and a real be connected which would make for an incongruent  saying?

(using the graphic example below of the Sacred Yantra - where exactly does an "unreal" and thus separate exist?

 

 

thus how can one reconcile said prayer with schools of non-duality that also use it?

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by old3bob

[Lairg]

Over the decades God has repeatedly receded in my perception.   God in the church building, in the planet, solar system, galaxy, cluster of universes, before the pralaya....  The more I see, the more there is to see.  The demarcation between Unreal and Real keeps moving - and I move with it.

 

When I look in a mirror, I see duality.   When the mirror is gone, where is the duality?   Both states are useful to me.

[old3bob]

what are you confused about Natural?  (per that icon)

[natural]

15 hours ago, old3bob said:

what are you confused about Natural?  (per that icon)

Unreal versus reality?

Most likely no two people share the same reality.

[old3bob]

I did not compose the prayer but brought it up for any who want to ponder on its meanings...

 

To me the context of the prayer is pointing to a shared or unitive reality,  which is beyond the obvious differences among varied beings and forms at limited levels of their particular reality. 

[Cleansox]

24 minutes ago, natural said:

Unreal versus reality?

Most likely no two people share the same reality.

Then, if I understand it correctly, one or both are still in that which is called unreal. 

 

Per definition of of the shared experience of people from multiple traditions that reap the benefit of the result of a serious amount of spiritual cultivation, that is, a wording from a very specific point of view. 

[dwai]

Good question! The unreal is superimposed upon the real, like the images of a movie are superimposed upon the movie screen. So, let us go from the unreal (appearances) to the real (consciousness). In the Yantra sadhana (though I'm not personally trained in it), the meditation process takes the individual from the outer to inner, surface to origin (bindu). 

 

It is very important to understand that Non-dual knowledge has to be realized. The process of realization can take many forms, including worship, action, yoga, and contemplation. Why? Because different individuals have different dispositions due to karma. So different means are provided. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by dwai

[old3bob]

ok, yet the  "origin" and the "surface" are not separate but connected...thus in that case the question still  remains how can an "unreal" be connected to the "real" and still be labeled or written off as only unreal?  (like Prana is not disconnected from Brahman and is not called unreal in the Upanishads)

Edited February 25, 2022 by old3bob

[natural]

6 minutes ago, old3bob said:

ok, yet the  "origin" and the "surface" are not separate but connected...thus in that case the question still  remains how can an "unreal" be connected to the "real" and still be labeled or written off as only unreal?  (like Prana is not disconnected from Brahman)

In large part that is what has me scratching my noggin, lol.

[MIchael80]

20 hours ago, old3bob said:

There is a well known and often used preface type of prayer in Hinduism, namely:

 

"Lead me from the unreal to the real,

Lead me from darkness to light,

Lead me from death to immortality.

Om shanti shanti shanti..."

 

So and for instance one might logically ask where does the "unreal" end & the "real" begin,  and how could an unreal and a real be connected which would make for an incongruent  saying?

(using the graphic example below of the Sacred Yantra - where exactly does an "unreal" and thus separate exist?

 

 

thus how can one reconcile said prayer with schools of non-duality that also use it?

 

Hi! 

 

As with everything that an awakened being or scripture says it is important where in the divine unfolding that being was (stages of awakening....though i do not like the word stages so much) 

 

With the first big shift there is a change of self experience from being a mind/body to pure still unbounded consciousness. 

 

At this point the world appears often like a dream or unreal....like it is covering the real.  (Stage of that prayer)

 

If you desire (here it means you are open to) further unfolding...at a certain point a unification happens...like pure awareness recognizes itself as form....the real regocnizes itself also as the "unreal " and that duality collapses leading to deep changes in the psyche and body also. 

Ramanas teaching comes from here "the world is not real only Brahman is real,  the world is Brahman. 

 

Once this unity process completes one moves beyond consciousness....which is rather dramatic at first because it feels like falling out of source (pure awareness) like loosing ones awakening....because what is when there is no basis at all?

After a while pure unbounded consciousness is seen as another layer over the pure source ... but that is beyond this response.

 

Important is that there are different perspectives in the awakening unfolding...and they have quite distinct realities.

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, old3bob said:

ok, yet the  "origin" and the "surface" are not separate but connected...thus in that case the question still  remains how can an "unreal" be connected to the "real" and still be labeled or written off as only unreal?  (like Prana is not disconnected from Brahman and is not called unreal in the Upanishads)

That's another good question. How Vedanta (and indeed Hindu dharmic traditions) views unreal is, that which is impermanent. Impermanent is unreal, permanent is real. So, Consciousness is "real" and phenomena witnessed by consciousness are "unreal". 

 

The implication is that, by realizing the "Real", it will become apparent that the "unreal" is not apart from the "real", but rather made of that same reality, through and through (aka awareness). Such as ornaments made of gold, pots made of clay, and so on. 

 

There is a process of pointing to something that is very subtle, in dharmic traditions, called the Arundhati Darshana Nyaya. Most of these teachings use that method -- direct pointing won't help most seekers, so indirect pointing is used. 

 

P.S. There is no "beyond awareness". How does one know? Is there any way to "know"  other than awareness? 

Edited February 25, 2022 by dwai

[natural]

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

That's another good question. How Vedanta (and indeed Hindu dharmic traditions) views unreal is, that which is impermanent. Impermanent is unreal, permanent is real. So, Consciousness is "real" and phenomena witnessed by consciousness are "unreal". 

 

That which I bolded above is closing in on my confusion.

[old3bob]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

That's another good question. How Vedanta (and indeed Hindu dharmic traditions) views unreal is, that which is impermanent. Impermanent is unreal, permanent is real. So, Consciousness is "real" and phenomena witnessed by consciousness are "unreal". 

 

ok, yet again where does this so called unreal come from and return to, in Taoism the chains of manifestation and return are delineated

thus not dismissed, but are called the First born, the Two, the Three and onto the Ten thousand along with the saying close to the, "Tao goes far and returns"...(yet also standing still, which is almost word for word in meaning with a saying in the Upanishads)

[old3bob]

19 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

Hi! 

 

As with everything that an awakened being or scripture says it is important where in the divine unfolding that being was (stages of awakening....though i do not like the word stages so much) 

 

With the first big shift there is a change of self experience from being a mind/body to pure still unbounded consciousness. 

 

At this point the world appears often like a dream or unreal....like it is covering the real.  (Stage of that prayer)

 

If you desire (here it means you are open to) further unfolding...at a certain point a unification happens...like pure awareness recognizes itself as form....the real regocnizes itself also as the "unreal " and that duality collapses leading to deep changes in the psyche and body also. 

Ramanas teaching comes from here "the world is not real only Brahman is real,  the world is Brahman. 

 

Once this unity process completes one moves beyond consciousness....which is rather dramatic at first because it feels like falling out of source (pure awareness) like loosing ones awakening....because what is when there is no basis at all?

After a while pure unbounded consciousness is seen as another layer over the pure source ... but that is beyond this response.

 

Important is that there are different perspectives in the awakening unfolding...and they have quite distinct realities.

 

I'd put  it more simply by saying one can not fall out of the Self and the Self can not fall out all beings.

[MIchael80]

5 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

I'd put  it more simply by saying one can not fall out of the Self and the Self can not fall out all beings.

Well the actual reality is that for several people it feels like falling out of the Self....some need months of adjustment...at first it is just a blankness. 😊

 

But to me more important in this context is the real vs. unreal dichotomy.....very basic... is just a perception of reality from a certain stage of awakening. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by MIchael80

[old3bob]

7 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

Well the actual reality is that for several people it feels like falling out of the Self....some need months of adjustment...at first it is just a blankness. 😊

 

or...water does not fall out of saltwater and neither does  salt fall out of saltwater

Edited February 25, 2022 by old3bob

[old3bob]

25 minutes ago, dwai said:

That's another good question. How Vedanta (and indeed Hindu dharmic traditions) views unreal is, that which is impermanent. Impermanent is unreal, permanent is real. So, Consciousness is "real" and phenomena witnessed by consciousness are "unreal". 

 

The implication is that, by realizing the "Real", it will become apparent that the "unreal" is not apart from the "real", but rather made of that same reality, through and through (aka awareness). Such as ornaments made of gold, pots made of clay, and so on. 

 

There is a process of pointing to something that is very subtle, in dharmic traditions, called the Arundhati Darshana Nyaya. Most of these teachings use that method -- direct pointing won't help most seekers, so indirect pointing is used. 

 

P.S. There is no "beyond awareness". How does one know? Is there any way to "know"  other than awareness? 

 

yes, it sounds like you are echoing the Isha Upanishad...

Edited February 25, 2022 by old3bob

[natural]

A common Christian prayer " Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done in heaven and on earth, (so much for free choice) lead us not into temptation, (out of the darkness) or deliver us to evil (into the darkness?).

 

Is that a reasonable take on:

 

21 hours ago, old3bob said:

There is a well known and often used preface type of prayer in Hinduism, namely:

 

"Lead me from the unreal to the real,

Lead me from darkness to light,

Lead me from death to immortality.

Om shanti shanti shanti..."

 

So and for instance one might logically ask where does the "unreal" end & the "real" begin,  and how could an unreal and a real be connected which would make for an incongruent  saying?

(using the graphic example below of the Sacred Yantra - where exactly does an "unreal" and thus separate exist?

 

 

thus how can one reconcile said prayer with schools of non-duality that also use it?

 

 

[natural]

14 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

or...water does not fall out of saltwater and neither does  salt fall out of saltwater

 

Yet they can mix.

And in doing so are changed, measurably!

Is it real or Memorex?

 

Remember the telephone game?

It began with one word, passed on to another, again and again.

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

yes, it sounds like you are echoing the Isha Upanishad...

All the Upanishads say the same thing, in different words. As does the Bhagavad Gita. 

[MIchael80]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

or...water does not fall out of saltwater and neither does  salt fall out of saltwater

Do you know these stages of unfolding? 

Because you are so sure.

And if you know these why is the real/unreal any question as it comes much before? 

 

In your analogy we could say salt being the individual and water being the pure unbounded awareness. 

 

With regards to further unfolding....that would be beyond water.

Edited February 25, 2022 by MIchael80

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, natural said:

A common Christian prayer " Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done in heaven and on earth, (so much for free choice) lead us not into temptation, (out of the darkness) or deliver us to evil (into the darkness?).

 

Is that a reasonable take on:

 

 

 

umm, with orthodox Christianity being very dualistic I'd say it's a  hard stretch to relate or correlate  it to non-dualistic schools in the east unless one gets very esoteric and or mystical, but even then it's a difficult row to hoe, as far as I know.

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, MIchael80 said:

Do you know these stages of unfolding? 

Because you are so sure.

And if you know these why is the real/unreal any question as it comes much before? 

 

In your analogy we could say salt being the individual and water being the pure unbounded awareness. 

 

With regards to further unfolding....that would be beyond water.

 

its not my analogy, I was more or less trying to paraphrase the following from the Chandogya Upanishad:

 

1-2. [Uddālaka said,] ‘Put this lump of salt into water and come to me in the morning.’ Śvetaketu did as he was told. Uddālaka said to him, ‘My son, bring me the salt that you put in the water.’ Śvetaketu looked, but he could not find it, as the salt had dissolved in the water. [Uddālaka said,] ‘My son, drink the water at the surface.’ [Śvetaketu did that, and Uddālaka asked,] ‘How does it taste?’ [Śvetaketu replied,] ‘It is saline.’ [Uddālaka then said:] ‘Drink it from the middle. How does it taste?’ ‘It is saline.’ ‘Drink it from the bottom. How does it taste?’ ‘It is saline.’ ‘Throw the water away and then come to me.’ Śvetaketu did so, The father said to him..." and it goes further from there.

 

Btw, I'm not so sure about purposely  high sounding sayings or concepts as you seem to be,  The Revealed sayings in the Upanishads, Tao Teh Ching and Zen which point the way are enough for me to deal with,  non-the-less your comments add to the discussion.

Edited February 25, 2022 by old3bob

[natural]

25 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

umm, with orthodox Christianity being very dualistic I'd say it's a  hard stretch to relate or correlate  it to non-dualistic schools in the east unless one gets very esoteric and or mystical, but even then it's a difficult row to hoe, as far as I know.

 

Yet, would you agree there are similarities?

 

Edit to add many paths up the mtn.?

Edited February 25, 2022 by natural

[old3bob]

Swami Yogananda did all sorts of correlating along such lines  in his famous autobiography, which btw is not accepted or used by many schools of Hinduism...anyway if you have not read it, it might be of interest to you.

Edited February 25, 2022 by old3bob