'Hard logic' on why everything has meaning

[Owledge]

Things that exist, things that happen, inherently have meaning.

 

Otherwise, what would be the point?

Because a point is a thing that exists.

And meaninglessness exists, too, which it could not without meaning.

 

 

I hope I didn't make myself clear.

[Lairg]

Knowledge (rather than belief) that Life has meaning is the result of the first major spiritual achievement of the human.

 

Having learned to control all the physical desires (more or less continuously) the human knows itself as beyond the physical world.  And if there is existence beyond the physical then the physical world must derive meaning from what is beyond.

 

I had a friend at work who was coming to this point of knowing.  I saw him in the street one day and it was evident to me that he had stabilized at this point of knowing.  So I asked him an appropriate test question:  Do you know (as compared to believe) that Life has meaning?

 

He replied that he did not know that but that he had stopped hoping to be lucky - such as winning the lottery.   I took that as a yes.

 

[Owledge]

Thoughts/theses:

 

Accepting the meaninglessness of life allows to move past the concept of meaning to truly give life meaning, the act of giving being constituted by the act of accepting possibility, the act of perceiving.

 

Controlling physical desires opens up to the concept of the beyond.

Then surrendering control of physical desires transcends the concept of the beyond by neutralizing the fear function, the foolish quest of wanting to go there through elevating your level of control to beyond-level.

But without first trying to control those desires, one cannot know the real thing through contrast. That is, the mind cannot know, but it must so that it can choose to surrender its control.

 

Connecting with the creator power makes knowing a responsible choice. Then you know life has meaning because you said so.

This is a crossroads phase. Those touching on it unprepared can become a manifester of their more basic motivations.

 

But those who understand that seen from the source, everything is bullshit, are not afraid of it, and thereby are not ruled by it.

[stirling]

15 hours ago, Owledge said:

Things that exist, things that happen, inherently have meaning.

 

Otherwise, what would be the point?

Because a point is a thing that exists.

And meaninglessness exists, too, which it could not without meaning.

 

The thinking mind is the source of meaning. Objects in the world are inherently empty of any intrinsic meaning, there is therefore no "point". A "point", like meaning, is also a product of the mind and is therefore purely conceptual. Even meaninglessness does not exist.

 

Do not despair, however. Hopelessness is often the first step on the path to understanding and liberation. Hope is our projection of a possible future. Stories about the past or future most often disappoint. If we train to accept this moment JUST as it is and drop our story, attachment and aversion (the nature of suffering) begin to transform. 

 

 

Quote

Turning your mind towards the dharma does not bring security or confirmation. Turning your mind towards the dharma does not bring any ground to stand on. In fact, when your mind turns toward the dharma, you fearlessly acknowledge impermanence and change and begin to get the knack of hopelessness.

 

The difference between theism and notheism is not whether one does or does not believe in God. It is an issue that applies to everyone, including Buddhists and non-Buddhists. Theism is a deeply seated conviction that there’s some hand to hold: if we just do the right things, someone will appreciate us and take care of us. It means thinking there’s always going to be a babysitter available when we need one. We all are inclined to abdicate our responsibilities and delegate our authority to something outside ourselves. Nontheism is relaxing with the ambiguity and uncertainty of the present moment without reaching for anything to protect ourselves. Nontheism is realizing that there’s no babysitter that you can count on. The whole of life is like that. That is the truth, and the truth is inconvenient.

 

As long as we’re addicted to hope, we feel that we can tone our experience down or liven it up or change it somehow, and we continue to suffer a lot. In a nontheistic state of mind, abandoning hope is an affirmation, the beginning of the beginning. You could even put “Abandon Hope” on your refrigerator door instead of more conventional aspirations like “Everyday in everyway, I’m getting better and better.” We hold onto hope and it robs us of the present moment. If hope and fear are two different sides of the same coin, so are hopelessness and confidence. If we’re willing to give up hope that insecurity and pain can be exterminated, then we can have the courage to relax with the groundlessness of our situation.

 

Death can be explained as not only the endings in life but all of the things in life that we don’t want. Our marriage isn’t working; our job isn’t coming together. Death and hopelessness provide proper motivation for living an insightful, compassionate life. But most of the time warding off death is our biggest motivation. Warding off any sense of problem, trying to deny that change is a natural occurrence, that sand is slipping through our fingers. Time is passing and its as natural as the seasons changing. But getting old, sick, losing love – we don’t see those events as natural. We want to ward them off, no matter what.

 

When we talk about hopelessness and death, we’re talking about facing facts. No escapism. Giving up hope is encouragement to stick with yourself, not to run away, to return to the bare bones, no matter whats going on. If we totally experience hopelessness, giving up all hope of alternatives to the present moment, we can have a joyful relationship with our lives, an honest, direct relationship that no longer ignores the reality of impermanence and death.

 

- Pema Chodron, "When Things Fall Apart"

 

 

 

[Owledge]

Is the mind not a thing that exists? And what but the mind could even make such a claim?

 

Also, I tend to see the 'alchemy' like this:

root = confidence

crown = hope

When both mix in the middle (heart), where balance can be achieved, they create faith.

 

I.e. faith is hope empowered with confidence.

Hope without confidence is the bemourning of powerlessness, running away, looking for external support.

Confidence without hope is a survival machine with no direction, i.e. a cog-in-the-machine process, so entrapped in its own identity that it does not realize its powerlessness for having any transformative impact.

When crown-imbalanced find root-imbalanced, they form an alliance that is a severely interdependent and fear-driven pseudo-balance with no harmony. ... But if we look at the system as a whole, beyond the egoic identity, it could still be quite 'valid'. Because while self-empowerment can be helpful, these things are always a matter of what is needed for balance, and self-empowerment can become a dogmatic mentality that cripples empathy by trying to teach everybody to become self-reliant and not perceive reliance on others, even though that is to some degree inevitable. (If you live in the woods in a log cabin and grow your own food, you had to buy the land with money you got somehow, and then you rely on a state authority to recognize your ownership of the land and defend it against malicious influences.)

[silent thunder]

In my experience our inner storyteller assigns meaning, based on bias and projection.

[Nungali]

On 28/02/2022 at 3:44 PM, Lairg said:

Knowledge (rather than belief) that Life has meaning is the result of the first major spiritual achievement of the human.

 

Yes, because 'knowledge' is never wrong , eh ?

 

On 28/02/2022 at 3:44 PM, Lairg said:

 

Having learned to control all the physical desires (more or less continuously) the human knows itself as beyond the physical world.  And if there is existence beyond the physical then the physical world must derive meaning from what is beyond.

 

I had a friend at work who was coming to this point of knowing.  I saw him in the street one day and it was evident to me that he had stabilized at this point of knowing.  So I asked him an appropriate test question:  Do you know (as compared to believe) that Life has meaning?

 

He replied that he did not know that but that he had stopped hoping to be lucky - such as winning the lottery.   I took that as a yes.

 

 

Yet you took it as a yes .    

 

Someone who declares he has stopped  hoping to be lucky , as a response to such a question, is clearly trying to tell you  he does not know life has meaning  .... and besides , he already told you that at the beginning of that very same sentence .

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

In my experience our inner storyteller assigns meaning, based on bias and projection.

 

But ... but ....  that seems to imply that  pony-boy's ;  " Then you know life has meaning because you said so. "

 

Is not valid  !  ?    And that could mean ,  a lot of my other 'knowings, because I say so '   are not valid either   !  ?

 

- oh dear !   I am  going to have  to go and think on this one  !   ... this ruins everything !

 

 

 

 

.

Hmmmm ... maybe if MY yoga teacher held me there with a lead on my neck , I might have had more success ?    But I bet HE could not have held concentration while I jerked around and licked his face .

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

because 'knowledge' is never wrong , eh

 

Quite right.  Knowledge is a reification.

 

I should have used: knowing

 

 

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

Yet you took it as a yes .   

 

Because his energy field had changed to that of a knower

Edited March 13, 2022 by Lairg

[stirling]

On 2/28/2022 at 7:59 PM, Owledge said:

Is the mind not a thing that exists? And what but the mind could even make such a claim?

 

Is it "mind" or "Mind"? Is it "self" or "Self"? If it comes with a capitol letter out front and refers to awareness as the only real thing, then... maybe... but not even that really.

 

Quote

 

Also, I tend to see the 'alchemy' like this:

root = confidence

crown = hope

When both mix in the middle (heart), where balance can be achieved, they create faith.

 

 

I see alchemy like this:

 

 

 

Quote

 

I.e. faith is hope empowered with confidence.

Hope without confidence is the bemourning of powerlessness, running away, looking for external support.Confidence without hope is a survival machine with no direction, i.e. a cog-in-the-machine process, so entrapped in its own identity that it does not realize its powerlessness for having any transformative impact.

 

 

...reminds me of this:

 

Quote

Reality is what we take to be true. What we take to be true is what we believe. What we believe is based on our perceptions. What we perceive depends on what we look for. What we look for depends on what we think. What we think depends on what we perceive. What we perceive determines what we believe. What we believe determines what we take to be true. What we take to be true is our reality. - David Bohm

 

Yes, everything is interconnected and all appearances are reflected in all other appearances... but also there ARE no separate appearances or reflections. Since there are no subject/object relationships there is nothing to have a relation to anything else.

 

Ultimately  there is just "this" happening "now" - context free.

 

Sorry I didn't reply to your reply... I missed your post.  

Edited March 13, 2022 by stirling

[old3bob]

I'd say that when the Buddha said, "may all beings be happy" he cut directly through and refuted all the countless, high sounding sayings of  convoluted mish-mash and nihilistic like ponderings of lost simplicity that are counter to Spirit...

Edited March 13, 2022 by old3bob